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StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (New Staff Post, Please read)

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Hermii said:
There's also the issue that some people are sceptical of having an internet connected camera pointed at the living room.

Even though we all have phones.
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This is a much smaller group of people than I wish it was, but most people these days have an always-on microphone that sends your conversations to actual advertising agencies. A camera's a small step from that.
 
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Terrell said:
If we're talking about DOA external storage and then bring up CFe Type A, which Sony and only Sony is actively trying to make use of, it's a bit of a contradiction. And the less said about MSRP the better. Mind you, another contradiction is calling UFS a dead format when its embedded form is in use in close to half the world's smartphones currently for sale.
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Only used... By one of the world's biggest camera manufacturers, that's a LOT better than dead.

Conflating UFS and UFS Card is also not being particularly forthcoming about the reality of the second format. I'd go so far as to say it's dishonest framing. eUFS is huge. UFS Card is dead.

CFe Type A is neither dead nor embedded.
 
Raccoon said:
front facing, above the screen!

"noooo but raccoon my dock is sideways" that sounds like a you problem
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Raccoon you want this device to be small and durable, right? Camera in the bezel means a weaker, thicker bezel. Nobody wins.

Nintendo Switch has a camera, likely the next will too. On the CONTROLLER.
 
Darknut85 said:
You mean the same Apple which puts only 8GB RAM in the newest iPhone? LPDDR5 is good, but 5X is better. If the prices are good they‘ll definitely go with 5X.
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I think the concern might be that T239 was designed and finished too early to be compatible with LPDDR5X.
 
ILikeFeet said:
the model to be stored on site. a cloud based tracker would be terrible in the first place due to latency. can't play Just Dance with a camera if you gotta wait for a cloud system to calculate your motion
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Yea, to specify the vast majority of people will have their switch connected to the internet, and it could have a camera pointed at the livingroom. That's all I meant.
 
Raccoon said:
but we already know it's clunky, I hope it's at least funny and silly
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Ah, it's a bit. Right.

To take it seriously a moment, consider how you could have said "funny" with less compromises.

Camera on the controller solves so many problems, and they knew that, that's why it's on it RIGHT NOW! That's why it was there on Wii, and Wii U GamePad!

Permanent lighthouses that you need to worry about charging or plugging in are a headache, even if there's just one, EVEN if it's the dock. They abandoned Sensor Bar for a reason.

But what a higher resolution (IR) Motion Camera (or two, or three!) on each controller means is you could have your motion sensors... Always be charged, because they're your controllers! Small and easy to move, because they're you're controllers. Lay flat on their side with their camera pointed at you, because they're Joy-Con. Place the new Joy-Con R on its side on the TV unit and use it like Kinect. Place the new Joy-Con L on its side on your coffee table, and now you have two reference points, hands behind your back, above your head, body twisted into knots, it knows what's up. This flexibility also means different games could ask for different tracking setups. Imagine a new Fit game, it has you set it on the TV unit or a table to track running and stretches, then you place it on the floor to your side to track press-ups.

If you muck up the positioning, the device weighs like, sixty, seventy grams, it takes five seconds to adjust. If the tracking is done from the dock, then you have wires to worry about when you're doing that, gross!!! Inconvenient!!! Unfun!
 
Discostew said:
Just to note, assuming 20GB/s is used for the T239's CPU and the GPU gets the rest with LPDDR5, that's 82.4GB/s. At 3.4TFlops, that comes to roughly 24.2GB/s per TFlop. Sounds low, but we don't really know how well it will be utilized. Phones having LPDDR5X doesn't really mean much when they aren't as tightly optimized for gaming as what the T239 will be. They get heavily throttled down anyways when under load because of no active cooling.

Let's talk about the PS4 which has 176GB/s RAM bandwidth. Let's assume the same 20GB/s for the CPU (though the CPU is rather poor by comparison to the A78C cores in the T239). At 1.8TFlops for the GPU with 156GB/s RAM bandwidth remaining, that's ~86.7GB/s per TFlop. That's almost 3.59x the bandwidth per TFlop than what the T239 would have available, so how could the T239 even handle things with so little when pushing for almost double the raw processing power? Architectural advances like tile rendering. This one in particular is extremely important.

Tiled rendering - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

PS4 and the Pro use immediate mode rendering, hence why they need such high bandwidth. And that's not all. Starting with Nvidia Maxwell architecture (also used by the Tegra X1 in the Switch), these tiles are held in cache, which is multiple times faster than main RAM. Chunks of texture data can be cached as well, reducing even more bandwidth usage from main RAM during the rendering process of each tile. So, tiles in cache are cleared for starting the rendering process, texture chunks are cached, rendering happens in cache, and then the tiles are flushed to buffers in main RAM in prep for new tiles to go through the process. A lot of the bandwidth that would have been part of main RAM usage is instead moved over to cache.

We can't simply look at RAM bandwidth and assume something without looking at how the system utilizes it. Having 102.4GB/s may be just fine.
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This I agree with whole heartedly, Ampere possibly needing 25-30GB per TFLOP to be performant doesn't give us the full picture on T239.
On the other hand Lovelace only needs 12-18GB per TFlop and a lot of this because of the memory cache increase allotted to the GPU over Ampere.

So until we know the full information on memory speeds, cache amounts and such it is kind of hard to know exactly how much performance Nintendo and their developers will squeeze out of T239...
 
Giancarlo said:
now that complicate further a possible Switch sucessor reveal, when to reveal Switch sucessor?
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As Furukawa stated, current business conditions do not impact hardware release timing, and by extention it won't be a decisive factor in when they reveal it imo. How best to market the Switch 2 is the main priority in their choice for reveal. Switch 1 can coast on if a Pokémon releases, anyway.
 
BreakAtmo said:
I think the concern might be that T239 was designed and finished too early to be compatible with LPDDR5X.
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Specifically, LPDDR5X-8533, since Micron's and Samsung's LPDDR5X-8533/LPDDR5X-8500 modules were validated on 2H 2022, which suggests that non-custom LPDDR5X-8533 controllers were not validated until 2H 2022.

Micron's and Samsung's LPDDR5X-7500 modules on the other hand were validated on 2H 2021 and 1H 2022 respectively.

(That's assuming T239 was taped out on 1H 2022 (here and here).)
 
Hermii said:
Yea, to specify the vast majority of people will have their switch connected to the internet, and it could have a camera pointed at the livingroom. That's all I meant.
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I use a projector and my couch faces AWAY from my Switch. This would be a wasted feature.
 
Concernt said:
Dead formats are pretty impractical all things considered, and CFe has advantages other than not being dead, like being easier to cool.
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I don't know how CFexpress Type A cards are easier to cool, considering CFexpress Type A cards are smaller than SD cards (20 mm x 28 mm x 2.8 mm vs 24 mm x 32 mm x 2.1 mm). And although CFexpress Type A cards are thicker, albeit not significantly so, than SD cards, I don't know if there's enough space for adequate cooling, looking at the back of CFexpress Type A cards.

And I think CFexpress Type B cards are too large and too thick to be a consideration for Nintendo at 29.6 mm x 38.5 mm x 3.8 mm.
 
Dakhil said:
I don't know how CFexpress Type A cards are easier to cool, considering CFexpress Type A cards are smaller than SD cards (20 mm x 28 mm x 2.8 mm vs 24 mm x 32 mm x 2.1 mm). And although CFexpress Type A cards are thicker, albeit not significantly so, than SD cards, I don't know if there's enough space for adequate cooling, looking at the back of CFexpress Type A cards.

And I think CFexpress Type B cards are too big and too thick to be a consideration for Nintendo at 29.6 mm x 38.5 mm x 3.8 mm.
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I was specifically referring to UFS Card with that comment, which is much smaller and doesn't provide a metal exterior to wick away heat. SDe is technically an option that could work, but it's also relatively dead, while microSDe again has the heat:size problem. CFe Type A cards are fairly thin and provide adequate metal thermal contact for their usecases. As an example, the Type B formfactor used on Xbox Series X|S thermally connects to the cooling system of the console with relatively little surface area in contact, since it doesn't seem to need a lot of cooling to sustain its mandated speeds, just enough. The metal-by-default outer casing of a Type A CFe Card, especially with a surface area greater than the contact area between Xbox Series X's expansion slot's cooling solution and the expansion card, would absolutely be better suited next to a theoretical, usually plastic SDe card.

And to clarify, unless I'm mistaken, a thermal connection for a CFe Type A card is done at its front. This may be related to the fact that plastic-top CFe Type A cards seem to top out at 800MB/s, even 880 spec cards appearing to have a metal plate.

Pergear-260GB-CFE-A-CFexpress-Type-A-Card_08-scaled.jpeg


The area that matters here is that between the label and connectors edge, where heat, again if I'm not mistaken, is generally most concentrated, and where cooling systems attach(including where it attaches on Xbox Series X, albeit with a B formfactor.).

Though I should note, again, the comment you are replying to is about UFS card, not SD nor SDe, so I'm not sure why you brought it up.
 
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Shish said:
Seriously, dude, how expensive do you want this console to be?
"If it doesn't have this it will be obsolete, if it doesn't have that it will fail and so on..."
sometimes you forget that Nintendo also sells software as well as hardware, less hardware sales equals less software sales.
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I don't think lpddr5 will be obsolete. It's just that it's more then mature enough now. I just want this console to be as future proof as long as possible, because bandwidth will be a bottleneck again here. Lpddr5x in 2025 is not an unreasonable ask, and will be two years old by then.
ExoticSpice said:
LPDDR5 is more than enough. The latest iPhones have LPDDR5 and same with M3. What matters more is the amount of GPU cores or in this case SM's.

If Switch 2 can reach up to 3.5TFLOPs in docked mode clocks permitting then Nintendo is on cruise control till 2032. Those tensor cores and the RTX suite will be a huge help. Maybe Switch 2 OLED will have HDR and what better way to add HDR than to use RTX HDR that Nvidia launched recently. Nintendo has all the cards, they just have to play them right.
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I don't think it's "more than enough". it meets the minimum. The question we have to ask if the Switch 2 is better off now than the switch was regarding bandwidth. It's equivalent to 25 GB/s on switch.
 
Do you guys think there is a considerable chance that the GPU will go beyond 1GHz? I personally wouldn't be too surprised if we received something closer to the clocks of the standard Switch, and I think it's a reasonable expectation.
 
LinkURL said:
Do you guys think there is a considerable chance that the GPU will go beyond 1GHz? I personally wouldn't be too surprised if we received something closer to the clocks of the standard Switch, and I think it's a reasonable expectation.
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You mean below?

The thing you have to consider is that this is a custom chip, made by Nintendos specifications presumably for optimal performance performance per watt.

Thraktor calculated that to be around 500mhz on 4N. It makes no sense to go below this, as you get less than ideal efficiency and it would have been better and cheaper to design a smaller chip and get ideal efficiency.

Thraktor could be wrong of course about ideal efficiency clocks, but probably not by that much.
 
LinkURL said:
Do you guys think there is a considerable chance that the GPU will go beyond 1GHz? I personally wouldn't be too surprised if we received something closer to the clocks of the standard Switch, and I think it's a reasonable expectation.
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Thraktor showed that the most efficient clock (below which you hit the minimum voltage and don't gain any power saving) is well above that of the Switch 1. The 550 MHz mentioned earlier in the thread is based on this determination. The GPU clock speed of 1.1 GHz for the docked configuration is based on 2x this number plus I think there was some mention of 1.1 GHz as one of the clock profiles in the NVIDIA leak.
 
Zedark said:
Thraktor showed that the most efficient clock (below which you hit the minimum voltage and don't gain any power saving) is well above that of the Switch 1. The 550 MHz mentioned earlier in the thread is based on this determination. The GPU clock speed of 1.1 GHz for the docked configuration is based on 2x this number plus I think there was some mention of 1.1 GHz as one of the clock profiles in the NVIDIA leak.
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You do still get power savings below, but they are diminishing.
 
Dakhil said:
I don't know how CFexpress Type A cards are easier to cool, considering CFexpress Type A cards are smaller than SD cards (20 mm x 28 mm x 2.8 mm vs 24 mm x 32 mm x 2.1 mm). And although CFexpress Type A cards are thicker, albeit not significantly so, than SD cards, I don't know if there's enough space for adequate cooling, looking at the back of CFexpress Type A cards.

And I think CFexpress Type B cards are too large and too thick to be a consideration for Nintendo at 29.6 mm x 38.5 mm x 3.8 mm.
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a visual comparison. if they go with CFE Type A, I can see there being adapters for mSD cards at least

Prograde-Digital-160GB-CFExpress-Type-A-Card-and-Dual-Card-Reader-9.jpg
 
ShadowFox08 said:
I don't think lpddr5 will be obsolete. It's just that it's more then mature enough now. I just want this console to be as future proof as long as possible, because bandwidth will be a bottleneck again here. Lpddr5x in 2025 is not an unreasonable ask, and will be two years old by then.
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For third party games?
if that were the case I wouldn't worry too much, Switch has shown us that even with low specs it can have good third party support.
why would this be a problem for Switch 2?
 
Shish said:
For third party games?
if that were the case I wouldn't worry too much, Switch has shown us that even with low specs it can have good third party support.
why would this be a problem for Switch 2?
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Not just third party games. For all. Whether it's more consistent resolution between handheld and docked modes, or more alpha effects, or more framerate.
 
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ShadowFox08 said:
I don't think it's "more than enough". it meets the minimum. The question we have to ask if the Switch 2 is better off now than the switch was regarding bandwidth. It's equivalent to 25 GB/s on switch.
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There's been years worth of R&D on AMD, Intel, and Nvidia's part to make rendering more bandwidth efficient (e.g. mesh shaders). You can't just slot in the numbers and directly compare them.
 
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