Funny how we went from "there's no one, you're inventing" to "well... barely anyone".
But sure, none of the previous posts wishfully thinking "<switch title> in 4k" or "<switch title> 60fps" on new hardware don't count, I get it.
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- Thread starter Dakhil
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But sure, none of the previous posts wishfully thinking "<switch title> in 4k" or "<switch title> 60fps" on new hardware don't count, I get it.
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Just to clarify, I'm specifically talking about existing Switch games being in 4k WITHOUT being patched, as that is what you said. Plenty of people are expecting patches for games at which point 4k/60fps is of course on the table.
And my original response to you said almost nobody, not "there's no one".
pelusilla6
Bob-omb
Whats your point with your last messages? It seems you are only trying to bother people by mixing things up starting with the nosense RAM talk
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Deleted member 887
Guest
I think that is a very strange reading of your above sentence, and if that is what you meant, hopefully you understand why that isn't what people heard.
In general, if you're trying to say something to a specific user, you could reply to them, so they see your comment, and it's clear what you are referring to.
This thread has a robust, existing community of technically minded folk, and also a lot of drive by posters who ask the same things over and over again. Said drive-by posters are not going to see your lengthy message that leads with talk of a delay into 2024. If you want to contribute in that way, consider replying to users you think need this "check". When you post without context, it sounds like you're talking to the community here in general, not to the various posters who come for one question and leave.
It would work. It is debatable how desirable it might be.
FSR 1.0 requires the underlying image be anti-aliased, for example, the vast majority of Switch games don't use anti-aliasing. This isn't a problem on SteamDeck, both because it's not a console, it's a mini PC, and PC gamers expect to be tweaking settings up to and including driver settings, and because most PC games of the modern era are anti-aliased.
FSR would need to be used only on games that we're deploying a spatial or temporal upscaler already to prevent extremely muddy images
if you had read this thread's extensive discussion of the BC issue, you'd know community members have stated this many many times. You might also know that the Switch uses explicit performance profiles where games request exact clock speeds and that some games need patches to run at faster clocks stably. In which case, older games may (I repeat may) require patches to even acheive more stable framerates.
We've discussed Nintendos options here in great depth
This thread consists of game developers, silicon designers, and software engineers - I assume you are similar. We know. If you think someone needs correcting, reply to them directly, preferably without antagonizing them
Serif
𝕽𝖊𝖓𝖊𝖌𝖆𝖉𝖊 𝕬𝖓𝖌𝖊𝖑
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Yes, while the artifacting is noticeable, I think the solution is very good. Makes a night and day difference on my 4K set and the tablet display compared to Xenoblade DE.
Ultimately I don't think all of these upscaling and resolution techniques that Nintendo uses - including as far back as Mario Odyssey which was straight up interlaced in handheld mode - tells us anything about their intentions for Drake. It just means they're leveraging as much as they can out of the current hardware, which most folks here think will continue to be supported 2024+ even when Switch Ultra is out and about. After all, they still have a huge userbase to cater to and they shouldn't abandon optimization because their hot new DLSS hardware is out.
KMStwo
Luma
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Maybe someone just said something like "I can't wait for Drake to play Botw in 4K60fps" and this person assumes the person who said something like that thinks you will just plug a Switch game in the next Switch and boom your Switch game is in 4K60fps.
I think the far majority of this thread has some basic gaming tech knowledge and in a situation someone writes something akin to the above, it would be generally assumed and understood to be after patches (like obviously). Apart if you read sentences as is without context and thinking you know better than everyone else...
I think the far majority of this thread has some basic gaming tech knowledge and in a situation someone writes something akin to the above, it would be generally assumed and understood to be after patches (like obviously). Apart if you read sentences as is without context and thinking you know better than everyone else...
Nonsense? so 12GB instead of 8 makes more sense for a company that has a track record of shipping lower end hardware for years now (specially on their handhelds) and has been living just fine with a sub 4GB system? (consider OS usage and the iGPU shared memory).
Next thing you know, you're gonna rationalize how it makes "sense" to use some random ass source's leak on a web forum.
Not what I meant but ok. There are some posts here that go beyond wishful thinking and show that the user is unsure whether the feat is actually possible (without patching).
My mistake was thinking that those users were as active as the ones who are indeed aware that it's not possible.
SilentSentinel
Rattata
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This tone feels unnecessarily harsh, there's plenty of reasons why 12GB would make sense that have been explained several times.
4 gb wasn't bad for mobile tech in 2017.
Did you bet with someone that this thing is going to have 8GB of RAM? Because honestly who cares, it's not like you have any inside knowledge anyway.
Spork4000
Tektite
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Yeah, the note 7, Samsung’s balls to the wall flagship, had 4gb of ram and came out 7 months before the switch. The rough equivalent, the S22 ultra, has up to 12gb of ram and would likely have been out for more than a year when drake releases.
The Switch could have been a bit more powerful when it launched, but it wasn’t as underpowered as people seem to think.
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so far, not as we can tell. Nintendo might have incorporated FSR into their tools, but just haven't used them
I mean, the opening to your post posits that Nintendo could delay Drake to 2024 to add FSR. adding that to the OS doesn't require delaying the system.
Brb, gonna make an alt on this forum and "leak" the new colours and naming scheme for the upcoming hardware.
What difference would that make if it were the case? would my opinion that 8GB makes more sense and wishful thinking to win a bet materialize an 8GB switch pro into being?
Your tone in this thread is needlessly condescending and antagonistic. Please dial it back a bit. -Aurc, hologram, paranoodle
That's on you guys for correlating the first half of the sentence with the second half as a straight IF-THEN logic (which was never explicitly stated).
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Deleted member 887
Guest
Nintendo doesn't skimp on RAM. The last machine they released that was intended to compete on perf was the GameCube. Every system since has matched their competitors previous generation specs - except in RAM where they have gone above and beyond, often in the 1.5x range. 12 GB exactly matches that trend.
If Drake uses a JIT solution to help achieve backwards compat on Ampere, then even existing Switch games will need 1.5-2x RAM of the original Switch simple to run. 8GB is certainly the minimum in that case.
Nintendo shipped a 4GB mobile system in 2017 at the same time that Apple launched a 2GB mobile device. Apple has a 6 GB device out from last year. Nintendo has designed the Switch to take advantage of the massive mobile ecosystem driving down costs and making off the shell components available, and 6GB LPDDR5 modules are certainly readily available.
12GB doesn't "makes more sense" than 8GB at all, but being dismissive of 12GB because of Nintendo's "track record" is factually inaccurate.
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Deleted member 887
Guest
That's on you for using phrases like "explicitly implied" which make zero sense in the english language.
You're being a dick, and you're not contributing to the conversation. Stop, please.
Anatole
Octorok
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You might want to die shrink that huge chip on your shoulder. People would respond to you more kindly.
Changed the last word around to reflect what I actually meant since you care so much.
First off, past is not always a direct indicative of future hardware releases. Also, you (as well as other poster here who said 4GB for the time was good) completely ignore how in 2017, over 100 phones matched the switch in terms of RAM alone and a good 40 were already hitting above.
Phone Finder - search for a phone by feature - GSMArena.com
And before you move the goalpost saying "but the iGPU in those phones was not really comparable to the switch's" or "those phones were way more expensive", look up how top spec phones of that era with snapdragon SoCs perform even today in intensive mobile titles like genshin impact, and how prices have dropped for google and samsung phones not too late after release (yes, even the top spec ones).
For reference, an SoC featured in a phone released in 2017 (the pixel 2):
Raccoon
Fox Brigade
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NintenDuvo
Bob-omb
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So is the current plan ,to wait and see if the PS5 slim is real to validate one of our funcles correct?
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Took the words right out of my mouth.
@niconiconick64 I'd recommend listening to the advice of some people here and trying to tone down the hostility. We can have a discussion like this without the antagonistic tone.
OP
OP
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Spork4000
Tektite
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Changed the last word around to reflect what I actually meant since you care so much.
First off, past is not always a direct indicative of future hardware releases. Also, you (as well as other poster here who said 4GB for the time was good) completely ignore how in 2017, over 100 phones matched the switch in terms of RAM alone and a good 40 were already hitting above.
Phone Finder - search for a phone by feature - GSMArena.com
www.gsmarena.com
And before you move the goalpost saying "but the iGPU in those phones was not really comparable to the switch's" or "those phones were way more expensive", look up how top spec phones of that era with snapdragon SoCs perform even today in intensive mobile titles like genshin impact, and how prices have dropped for google and samsung phones not too late after release (yes, even the top spec ones).
For reference, an SoC featured in a phone released in 2017 (the pixel 2):
You’re comparing products that came out at the same time to 7 months after the Switch to make a point about products that are currently out a year+ before drake.
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You answered your own question. You can‘t necessarily predict ram from past hardware. There isn’t an ideology stopping Nintendo from putting 12GB ram in a handheld. Real reason for past consoles being 'weak' would be price over efficiency and reiterating the same architecture. The current Switch dosen‘t really fit in the 'Nintendo makes weak/outdated hardware' with its modern chip architecture and its power compared to other mobile devices at the time (Especially when you consider the price range).
Yes. Products that mind you, if you looked well enough, you'd find well spec'd ones that matched or were above (display, memory and storage-wise) the switch for nearly the same price or at worst, ~50-100 Euros more expensive.
The only caveat being that the ones with decently spec'd iGPUs were flagship models (that got major price cuts nearing switch price territory not much later anyways).
Wrong. I was adressing the whole "switch was impressive hardware-wise for it's time" argument.
Possibly, the only thing this has to do with our focus of discussion is how it somewhat proves nintendo isn't really likely to drop the ball with hardware in 2023 because well, they haven't done that in decades.
kvetcha
hoopy frood
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I pretty clearly remember a lot of chatter from industry folks after the announcement wondering how Nintendo had managed to include all the hardware in the Switch at that price point without losing money.
Either way, a bit silly to compare the Switch to cell phones that didn't include, you know, controllers. Much less two of them, and all the extra components that entails. Or the Dock. Or the cables. And the impact that makes on packaging. And shipping.
Considering you've ignored recent feedback asking you to dial back this condescending rhetoric, you are being issued a one week thread ban, to cool off. - Aurc, hologram, Donnie
You fail to understand how I'm guessing down, not up. And keeping expectations low when it comes to nintendo hardware has been a consistently accurate strategy since the wii u era.
Or what? you're gonna tell me that the reasonable people back in 2015-2016 expected the "Nintendo NX" to ship with 8GB of RAM?
Controllers are dirt cheap, so is packaging.
Same thing for the dock.
I could be impressed the same way about how nowadays you can get a snapdragon 888 smartphone for 350$ and still get a charger and packaging instead of getting it sent to you with a single layer of plastic wrap. But I'm not.
KeijiKG
Moblin
No, because Steam Deck uses x86 hardware and Nintendo Switch and its successor runs on two different iterations of ARM
Spork4000
Tektite
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Your point is about 12gb not being likely due to history, you refuted 12gb by saying the best phones in 2017 had 6 gb of ram, making the switch less impressive compared to competitors, but we aren’t in 2023, when the drake is assumed to come out, and the best phones now have 12gb of ram, just like the best phones in 2016 had 4gb of ram.
I think when people say that the Switch was impressive at the time, they mean it used the Tegra X1, which was nearly the best chip Nintendo could have gotten from Nvidia given their launch time table. They might have been able to get the tegra X2 if they waited a bit longer or paid more, or whatever, but that is another huge conversation that could be had.
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I think he meant in real world videogame performance.
kvetcha
hoopy frood
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予想を超える推定原価、任天堂の本気モードがSwitchオン！
2017年3月3日、任天堂が新型ゲーム機「Nintendo Switch」を発売した。一新された形状、先進的な電源環境、将来の拡張性など、多くの魅力と可能性を秘めた意欲作だ。著者と付き合いのある部品メーカーは、2018年までの累計販売台数をおよそ3000万台と予想する。今回はこのSwitchの中身を紹介する。
Estimated cost of manufacturing for the console, controllers and dock was $257 at launch, of which $90 was the BOM and manufacture for the two JoyCon.
But please, go on.
KeijiKG
Moblin
Even if there was, it's because it's a speculation thread after all.
Wishful thinking comes with the territory.
LiC
Member
My plan is to wait for the hardware to be announced.
Spork4000
Tektite
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KeijiKG
Moblin
Well sure, but even then Steam Deck is hardware meant to play PC games running as best it can whereas Switch or Drake plays games built for its hardware. Even just going on the idea that Drake is a bog-standard A78 based system with faster memory bandwidth, I'd like to think it'd have an easier time running games just on that alone but don't really expect titles it has in common with PC to have adjustable settings and whatnot, so comparing the two is best left for those videos that evaluate framecount and picture quality.
Plus really no metric for comparing Nintendo exclusives to the PC -- within the confines of the law
Serif
𝕽𝖊𝖓𝖊𝖌𝖆𝖉𝖊 𝕬𝖓𝖌𝖊𝖑
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"Since the Wii U era"? That's not a particularly large time period to guess from. The only new Nintendo console that released since then was the Switch, more powerful than both the Wii U and 3DS.
I don't remember much about 2017-era tech but when I bought the Switch on launch day, it felt like a pretty modern piece of tech. A $300 gaming tablet running Zelda and Skyrim that came with a TV out was pretty nifty. This is coming from someone who abhorred the clunky Wii U and the Wii's dismal 480p output.
(Honestly I was surprised to learn recently that my 2020 $350 Pixel 4A had only 6 GB of RAM lol)
Anyways I don't see a particularly good reason to really lowball Switch Ultra / II specs, considering the Switch's success. There's still speculation around process node, clocks, CPU but my expectations have always been a machine that can comfortably receive PS4/XBO ports and run them with better IQ, just like how the Switch gets PS3/360 ports at higher resolutions.
The short answer is yes.
Long answer: You can always crank up the settings on a Steam Deck at the cost of battery life and a warmer console. Switch Ultra / II will have native ports of games running with specific battery life and performance targets. Without FSR Elden Ring apparently runs for 93 minutes on Steam Deck, that number might be better now though. Honestly it's unfair for the Deck because it has to run Windows versions of games through the Proton compatibility layer with an Arch Linux OS as an overhead on an x86 processor. It's not really designed to be a hybrid. On average I think Switch Ultra will perform better.
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I don't think that's so cut-and-dry. I recently learned about there being a commandline tool to FSR process images, so I was just throwing a few at hand to see what would happen. NSMB DS Mario's very aliased edges turned out pretty well.
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Already is. While not a die shrink, a new SKU of PS5(and DE) that's 300g lighter is coming (or has already come) this year.
I wouldn't expect a proper die shrink, smaller case PS5 for another couple years, per Microsoft's comments about Slim models at the start of the generation and how it wouldn't help lower costs as unlike before, lower nodes' complexity cost is outpacing the savings of less silicon. We're sort of in a silicon plateau for now, too, and there are diminishing returns for producing less heat as your die size shrinks, because your ability to dissipate that heat, something PS5 already struggles with, gets worse with lower surface area.
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Deleted member 887
Guest
fair enough, but FSR 1.0 is explicitly design around anti-aliases inputs. It detects the aliasing artifacts as detail to sharpen - you can see it especially onto text and clock on the upper right hand corner.
I have a mac and building my own test fsr app is probably beyond me for a hung over holiday Monday - but if someone wanted to load some uncompressed odyssey footage into mpv with the fsr upscaler pushing each frame to 1080p and then take a look at the result, that would be the real test.
OP
OP
Yeah, going from the Nintendo Switch to Nintendo's new hardware equipped with Drake is going to be at least one of the biggest performance improvements seen from Nintendo.
I only expect marginal performance improvements after Nintendo releases new hardware equipped with Drake, especially if Arm's performance roadmap from 2021 is any indication.
A couple recent games have included FSR code, suggesting it's supported in an internal EPD library, but whether or not it's in use is a somewhat different question. With no one yet being able to positively identify FSR artifacts in either title, I'm leaning towards it not being used, because it should be fairly obvious if it was.
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I think you're bang on there! As explored somewhat elsewhere in the thread, the Nintendo Switch at launch really WASN'T underpowered or behind the curve, technology wise. USB C was so new that myself, someone who likes tech so much I went to college to study it, didn't have any USB C device other than my Nintendo Switch for months. The processor was, and continues to be, Nvidia's latest mobile gaming Tegra chip, the same one Nvidia used, and continues to use, in their own line of high end set too boxes. 4GB of RAM was, as others have said "balls to the walls" for mobile technology at the time. The Tegra X1 is also capable of very modern rendering techniques, slightly more than Xbox One and PS4, that while it's much less capable at crunching numbers, it's still an impressive piece of kit that can, objectively speaking, run PS4 level games portably. Imagine if a handheld came out in 1999 with the capabilities of an N64, just with a lower resolution output. People would have lost their minds.
That's basically what we got in 2017. As you said, BOTW and Skyrim on a handheld, people lost their minds, and rightfully so.
Edit: just want to make an addendum here to clarify, this is one of the reasons (other than the leaks) that I expect the Drake to well and truly kick some ass from a technical perspective. A 1-3TF system with DLSS? That's a handheld? Absolutely crazy stuff, but from the leaks we know it to be true.
Switch's successor has a host of advantages over the Steam Deck, although I still find the comparisons inappropriate.
The leaked GPU means that it could eclipse it at 550MHz in portable mode alone - That's a very real possibility on a much better lithography process.
It has a docked mode, meaning that it will be capable of even more.
It has DLSS, which can take strains off the GPU and leave more room for manoeuvre.
It has development tools specific to it, meaning better optimisation
It will be easier on the hands, so, the portability element will be more appealing.
It will have better battery life.
It will play physical retail games as well as digital copies - That matters.
I don't believe that LOZ: Breath Of The Wild's sequel is tied to a new platform launch.
Please read the OP and also get familiar with the leaks. You clearly haven't done that with the "Because Nintendo" post earlier in this thread, and the leaks show that we're talking about something much more powerful than the Steam Deck. Truthfully, we should've moved on from the Steam Deck, but your comment on downclocking the hell out of the successor is the only way it will be worse, and that isn't going to happen. One doesn't need a rumour mill to know that.
Look over there
Bob-omb
@niconiconick64
I posit that for 8 GB of 128-bit LPDDR5 to be an option on the table for Drake, the modules necessary for that result must be in mass production (either 4 GB 64-bit or 2GB 32-bit). I request proof of such.
As far as I'm aware, for Micron at least, 6 GB 64-bit modules are in production, but 4 GB 64-bit are still in sampling. Intel does have validation results for 4 GB 64-bit, but that doesn't necessarily prove mass production. Any particular phone with 4 GB of 64-bit LPDDR5 (not LPDDR4X) ram would suffice as an example.
(an example of 6 GB 64-bit LPDDR5 in the wild would be the Samsung Galaxy S20 FE 5G)
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The A710 (Matterhorn/2021) ended up at +10% IPC (including an increase in the base amount of L3 cache), then the A715 (Makalu/2022) ended up at +5% IPC over the A710. So about +15.5% IPC or so over the A78.
So yea, the next major leap in raw grunt after Drake will take quite a while. We're gonna need Gate-All-Around/RibbonFET transistors to succeed, at least (TSMC's N3 issues are probably reflecting pushing past the limits of FinFET).
I posit that for 8 GB of 128-bit LPDDR5 to be an option on the table for Drake, the modules necessary for that result must be in mass production (either 4 GB 64-bit or 2GB 32-bit). I request proof of such.
As far as I'm aware, for Micron at least, 6 GB 64-bit modules are in production, but 4 GB 64-bit are still in sampling. Intel does have validation results for 4 GB 64-bit, but that doesn't necessarily prove mass production. Any particular phone with 4 GB of 64-bit LPDDR5 (not LPDDR4X) ram would suffice as an example.
(an example of 6 GB 64-bit LPDDR5 in the wild would be the Samsung Galaxy S20 FE 5G)
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Also, the recent news of TSMC's N3 being a failure more or less tacks on another year of the N5 family being the best, so that pushes back cost depreciation, I guess?
The roadmap ended up overestimating things!Yeah, going from the Nintendo Switch to Nintendo's new hardware equipped with Drake is going to be at least one of the biggest performance improvements seen from Nintendo.
I only expect marginal performance improvements after Nintendo releases new hardware equipped with Drake, especially if Arm's performance roadmap from 2021 is any indication.
The A710 (Matterhorn/2021) ended up at +10% IPC (including an increase in the base amount of L3 cache), then the A715 (Makalu/2022) ended up at +5% IPC over the A710. So about +15.5% IPC or so over the A78.
So yea, the next major leap in raw grunt after Drake will take quite a while. We're gonna need Gate-All-Around/RibbonFET transistors to succeed, at least (TSMC's N3 issues are probably reflecting pushing past the limits of FinFET).
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Deleted member 887
Guest
First party, yes. I believe Raji: An Ancient Epic uses it after the last big update?
OP
OP
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