MP!
The Baby
we are in agreement
though I am a bit more hopeful in DLSS being able to close the gap but it remains to be seen as to how much of the gap it will close as far as new games are concerned
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StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (New Staff Post, Please read)
- Thread starter Dakhil
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though I am a bit more hopeful in DLSS being able to close the gap but it remains to be seen as to how much of the gap it will close as far as new games are concerned
- Pronouns
- She/Her
4K30 I think is entirely within remit without upscaling, but the most optimistic scenario as is would mean 10X the performance to hit 4K60. Not that it absolutely couldn't, mind.
That said, the fact 4K60 was demoed means that either this thing is very powerful (touching the 10X range rather than 6X), or can do DLSS fast enough for 60FPS. I would bet on the latter before the former, but as ever I think a lot of people are direly underestimating the poor thing. I think a combination is true, that relative performance really is going to be impressively high in TV mode, and that they'll make sure DLSS is fast on it.
Steve
Tingle
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- he/him
I think most first party games will be able to hit at least 4k 30fps/1440p60, but it’ll depend on the developers since the next 3D Mario will be 60fps, meanwhile third party might to 1080-1440p 30-60fps depending which games they’ll be porting.
Plus Nintendo are wizard when it comes to optimisation and using their hardware to the fullest.
Like I would presume with the help of DLSS totk and botw will be able to get an 4k 60fps, and other switch games.
Aufhebung RPG
History is tragedy becoming comedy
I think a lot of people in that thread are more blindly confident about the 1440p target, just speaking of Nintendo's first-party masterpieces, if they were made based on 1080p native resolution as a target the frame time required to upgrade to 1440p via dlss would definitely be longer than 2060, and there's absolutely no way you could get to 60 fps if you're in that condition
Goodtwin
Like Like
I just watched the video, and the 1.8ms DLSS cost is for the RTX2060. The RTX2060 was Turing and those Tensor cores are 2-3x less capable than the Ampere Tensor cores, but the RTX2060 has 240 Tensor cores compared to 48 Tensor cores in T239. T239 should have somewhere around 40-60% Tensor core performance compared to the RTX2060. My assumption would be that its best to assume that DLSS would have twice the cost on T239 compared to the RTX2060. Alex did point out that Doom Eternal does take advantage of Async compute, and some of the cost are hidden. However, that to me is very promising because it would still mean that 4K DLSS can be done in a much smaller frame slice compared to the other benchmarks we have seen where its around 15ms. Implementing it this way may be a case by case basis, and might not be practical for all games because their rendering pipelines are different. We have discussed it here, but Alex did agree that 4K 30fps DLSS is very viable and even with rendering resolutions down to 720p for DLSS ultra performance had promising results. It doesn't match true native 4K, but the image quality was still quite impressive.
Time will tell, but for right now my assumption is that most 60fps games will implement DLSS to 1440p and 30fps games will use DLSS to 4K. This is pretty remarkable for a portable system. I have no doubt that the next 3D Mario, Mario Kart and Splatoon are going to look amazing at 1440p 60fps. Then we will have ports of games like RDR2 and Eldin Ring that will be 30fps 4K. This is nothing to sneeze at.
redmutineer75
Helping me find my gun
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Since BotW runs at 900p30 on Switch docked, a Switch 2 version running at native 4K60 would require an 11.52× uplift in GPU performance. Assuming a best-case scenario of 1200 MHz docked, that would only be a 9.375× uplift. Definitely an impressive increase, but also definitely not enough for native 4K60. I expect most patched Switch games to run at 1440p60 native upscaled to 4K with DLSS Quality.
Tbh even without patches most switch games will still benefit provided theres some sort of boost mode equivalent.
Steve
Tingle
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You know what… that’s pretty good actually 1440p native 60 and DLSS 4k60 is pretty what I’ve been thinking and hoping.
Shoulder
Koopa
Except there are a few Fami folks on here who are younger than even the PS2, so I have to be more modern in my explanations and comparisons.
(...but yes, you are also correct. Switch 1 to Switch 2 could be like those as well. We can only dream until the inevitable happens.)
A gpu comparison can't be reduced to a simple number. There are myriads of factors that affects how 2 gpus will perform relative to one another in a real world scenario.
Shoulder
Koopa
To be fair, I don't think you can directly make that assumption because BOTW wasn't the most optimized game for the system at launch. Not suggesting BOTW being more optimized would yield a full native 1080p image, though I wouldn't be surprised if they could've gone a dynamic 1080p at 30fps on a regular Switch in docked mode.
I do still think a native 4k image at 60fps would be a tall order, though I don't think it's impossible. Merely, impractical.
So what, 13? Actually wouldn't be surprised now that I think about it.Except there are a few Fami folks on here who are younger than even the PS2, so I have to be more modern in my explanations and comparisons.
(...but yes, you are also correct. Switch 1 to Switch 2 could be like those as well. We can only dream until the inevitable happens.)
Shoulder
Koopa
I was 14 when I started on IGN way back in the day, and I know some Fami here were on IGN too during its heyday of the early to mid 2000s.
So not surprising at all.
- Pronouns
- he / him
4K30, sure, but the question was 4K60. And that an OLED overclocked to hell only gets 20% there goes to show how much farther a new system must go beyond that.
Now we've come full circle again to the big unknown of whether DLSS 4K60 is viable at all. If it is with even a mediocre amount of overhead left, then we might expect almost any Switch game could squeeze in there.
Can you back that up at all? If it takes ~X time for an unknown game to render a 2160p image, it would take the GPU ~0.25X to render the 1080p version. 1440p DLSS would then have to take ~0.75X time to become more expensive than 2160p, which seems far worse than anything I've seen suggested. It would also mean DLSS time to 2160p would be ~1.69X, significantly less efficient than just rendering there to begin with. Basically DLSS would be less than worthless.
To me at least, the fact that they seem to have gone with a 1080p screen portable suggests they're pretty confident about 1080p60 being feasible in that mode. And if that happens, docked mode for the same software being ~1440p seems a reasonable step.
NineTailSage
Bob-omb
In trying to determine whether or not Switch 2 is powerful enough to run BotW @4k60, there are many factors we just don't know.
Like even if the demo wasn't using DLSS, there are many other Ampere features that could get T239 to that metric to achieve 4k60.
Again as much as the GPU is a massive leap over Mariko, the CPU uplift is just as big.
So its not out of the realm of possibility that T239 could run every current Switch game at 4k60 using other hardware features beyond DLSS...
- Pronouns
- She/Her
The PS2 released 24 years ago.
I am younger than the PS2.
The first generational shift I actually remember was Wii to Wii U.
omniryu
Koopa
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So what is the Switch DLSS missing exactly to have the correct latency?
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Steve
Tingle
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eye0h
"aggressively persue a multiplatform strategy"
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As long as the games are good shiieeeeeee
Goodtwin
Like Like
The GPU clock speed for the overclocked OLED was 1420Mhz, offering 727Gflops of performance. Since we are expecting T239 to offer around 3Tflops of performances, that is about 4x the raw performance of this OLED. Im not sure what the memory bandwidth ends up being with this setup, but at 4K, I am sure its bandwidth starved. A better test would be 1080p 60fps. If this OLED setup can hold a solid 1080p 60fps, then T239 very likely could hit 4K 60fps natively.
Edit:
Zelda BotW at 1080p with the overclock cant quite reach 60fps, hovering between the mid 40's and mid 50's. The increase in memory clock speeds is the primary driver for the increased performance.
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omniryu
Koopa
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Please I need your youth. I am losing some hair up top!The PS2 released 24 years ago.
I am younger than the PS2.
The first generational shift I actually remember was Wii to Wii U.
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In handheld mode that makes perfect sense. We might see very demanding games do that in TV mode, too. But it'll be fine.
I think that's more bad genes than youth. I've seen guys in their teens have hair starting to fall out.
Goodtwin
Like Like
This is correct. I just checked both Eurogamer and VGC's publications on the subject, and they simply state Zelda BotW is running at a higher resolution and framerate than the Switch build of the game.
The 4k 60 thing came exclusively from Nate.
omniryu
Koopa
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I am 36. I don't think my genes are that bad. I was hoping that I would lose my hair after my early 40s.
I can back that up. I never seen 4K even being mentioned.
Welcome to the party!!I'm not even young anymore. I'm a college graduate.
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Indeed. I am already old and tired.
Just counting the days until the end. That being the launch of NG Switch.
Wasn't trying to insinuate you were some kind of untermenschen. Just pointing out that MPD is mostly genetic. Though eh, it's also not that unusually at that age either.
- Pronouns
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I hope that we now have reached rock bottom with this topic. Every time I thought that now is the point where everything starts making sense and we finally get a substantial leak, confirmation by Nintendo or just something, reality was moving goal posts.
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Soralink91
Moblin
Rock bottom will be after the May Investor briefing with the same message of the last few. We are in uncharted territories.
And leaks that's it's been delayed to 2026.
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Then we are in free fall again
Steve
Tingle
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We’ll reach rock bottom if Nintendo decided to announce it in October.
And also if they’ll decide to use an 8NM and only add 8GB ram.
But last year we had not yet Flash cards. This is true uncharted territories. If the copy of MIG Switch is confirmed, they must address it this year, considering their NDS and 3DS Flash card desaster.
Koren Lesthe
The Baby
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Nothing against him but I'm starting to think his source(s) might've overblown things quite a lot.
I mean, a system neck to neck with the Steam Deck, being able to run BotW at 4K60 with 0 loading times ?
Really ?
I want to be wrong, I'm in no way a tech nerd but I don't see Nintendo jumping on the 4K wagon yet, especially with a hybrid system.
Steve
Tingle
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- he/him
The only thing giving me hope of this being true is that he stated it was using 4k DLSS.
And was mostly a demo showcasing quicker load time.
Well, nobody is saying Drake is neck to neck with SD in docked mode. It's a lot better (at least gpu).
And I have no trouble believing the loading time thing. Maybe not zero, but really fast. Drake has dedicated hardware for file decompression, similar to ps5 and series consoles. This will speed up loading times a ton.
As for 4k, that could have easily been taken out of context or somebody misjudging the resolution if Nintendo didn't explicitly tell them.
Steve
Tingle
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Edit: never mind
Foltzie
Uncle Muji
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Ehh. . . So fair warning. . . The Nvidia leak of 2022 leaked almost as much about Drake as what leaked about Switch in June 2016.
Even if there is a big Nintendo demonstration of hardware at a GDC like event prior to handing out new SDEV units, there might not be more information to reliably leak.
Ram confirmation, clocks/profiles, software loading details, and certain BC details are possible future leaks.
KarlRemarx
Cappy
I think if you were running BotW natively on nvidia hardware at Drake's spec, with what we know about the file decompression hardware, you'd quite easily get both ~60fps and zero loading times. It's the resolution pre- and post-DLSS that's the most contentious thing if you ask me.
Aufhebung RPG
History is tragedy becoming comedy
There will be a very big gap between switch2 and steam deck in terms of visual performance, as switch2 has excellent RT performance and dlss capabilities, 4k I think is very unlikely, but there is no doubt that it is far stronger than steam deck in terms of resolution (especially in docking mode)
oldpuck
Koopa
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Yes, but the original question was “could this be done natively, without DLSS”
The two genders: "If Nintendo can't do X, it's hardly worth it" and "No way Nintendo will go as far as X." Prepare to both be genuinely shocked.
Let's do this with as little tech deep dive as possible, and just some simple arithmetic.
1080p is 2 million pixels. 4k is 8.3 million pixels. That's ~4x as many.
But Breath of the Wild doesn't run at a full 1080p, it is a dynamic 810-900p. 900p is 1.4 million pixels. That's 6x as many pixels. For a 4k Breath of the Wild we need 6x as much power.
We have leaked chip specs, confirmed by multiple outlets. We know that the chip in the Switch 2 has 6x as big a GPU as the original Switch. Simple.
But that is just 4k - Breath of the Wild is 30fps. To get there natively, we'd need to do twice as many graphics calculations a second - 12x, instead of 6x. That's why I'm certain Switch 2 can't do 4k60 natively. But that native is key - we don't need to get there natively! The rockstar feature of Nvidia's cards is DLSS, which augments native rendering.
I'll skip how DLSS works - I'll just say that on even the most hamstrung of tiny laptop cards, DLSS roughly doubles the expected frame rate of native rendering. That is your 60fps.
Yes. Most of loading is decompression. Switch 2 is known to have custom decompression hardware, like Playstation and Xbox. It makes decompression effectively instant. That's something that doesn't exist in PCs, which is why something like Steam Deck, which is just a mini-PC, doesn't have it
If you make a console with a bunch of cool new hardware features, you'd expect your in-house engines to take advantage of it. And if you did that, you'd probably start with an existing game, so you're only solving one set of problems. And if you were to take Breath of the Wild, and adapt it to use the tech we know is in the hardware, then a 4k60fps, zero loading time version of the game is exactly what you'd expect. Almost weirdly to a tee, in fact.
I don't know what you mean by technically, but if you want to consistent 60fps, you need a 2.3Ghz overclock, which is not only well beyond the stock Tegra X1 clock (which was only 1.0GHz) is beyond what the original TX1 was even overclockable to.
Which makes sense. You need to add enough power to hit the max res + double the frame rate. That's about 3x as many pixels, 2.3 GHz is basically 3x the 768Mhz base clock of the Switch. Exactly what you'd expect if everything scaled linearly.
Aufhebung RPG
History is tragedy becoming comedy
Do you guys think games on switch2 will run at 1440p dynamic resolution (1300-1440p?) in docked mode with dlss enabled, this assumes 60fps of course
fwiw, after all this time, Nate still hasn't retracted that tidbit so that part may be accurate.
Kevin
Chain Chomp
Been thinking about the elusive Switch 2 that never appeared and where expectations should be regarding the hardware and system in general.
I think most people (including myself) reached the conclusion that Switch 2 would basically just be a beefier Switch with a small new gimmick. I felt pretty good about this assessment until recently.
Here's the thing... Switch is really old and dated at this stage. What use to be a really cool and unique piece if hardware is kind of just a common thing now with many competitors offering beefier iterations of the Switch concept.
I personally feel like releasing a beefier Switch 2 in 2025 may prove to be to little too late. Don't get me wrong, I would be thrilled but I think it's been so damn long now that it kind of makes sense for Nintendo to maybe do something completely new or at least include a gimmick that is a much bigger deal then we have been expecting.
I'm not sure a beefier Switch 2 would be anywhere near as big as a hit as Switch 1 was and honestly to Nintendo's credit, I think they already know and anticipate this.
I think Nintendo might be cooking up something that they hope will greatly surpass consumer expectations. While I think the hybrid approach will be kept, I think there will be something completely new that competitors can't easily copy. No idea what this will be but I do believe Nintendo knows they need more then just a slightly more beefy Switch to really get that forward momentum going again like the Switch was able to do in 2017 when it was a new cool fresh concept.
Beyond hardware I also think Nintendo intends to really push their game development teams to output some truly special games. With Nintendo's major investments into amusement parks and movies based on their IP they know the games themselves will need to keep blowing people away and continue to grow in scope if they want consumers to continue getting excited for the Nintendo ecosystem.
A gorgeous open world Mario, a remake of beloved Ocarina of Time with nice visuals while we wait for the next new Zelda, the next big Mario Kart, etc. I think Nintendo is cooking and has been for a very long time. We haven't had a lot of big Nintendo flagship games in years. The last mainline Mario is nearly 7 years old, Mario Kart 8 is originally from the Wii U. Same with Donkey Kong, etc.
Don't get me wrong, the Nintendo output has continued to be strong but I think a lot of the more current game lineup has been more mid-tier titles in the pantheon of Nintendo's library and I think because the teams intend to cook up something special for the Switch successor.
Switch 2 may be a bigger deal then we may all expect. I don't think Switch 2 or whatever we end up getting can just be a slightly better Switch. I think after such a long wait, the expectations are going to be high and honestly Nintendo knows this. A beefier Switch in 2020 made sense but in 2025 the expectations are going to be much higher, the competition more fierce and Nintendo needs all hands on deck with a product that excites and games that make Switch's best games look dated.
It's been a long wait, the meal has been cooking for a lot longer then anyone of us have wanted to wait but it's likely needing the time to get just right and I think in 2025 we very well might be completely blown away when Nintendo finally comes to the table.
I think most people (including myself) reached the conclusion that Switch 2 would basically just be a beefier Switch with a small new gimmick. I felt pretty good about this assessment until recently.
Here's the thing... Switch is really old and dated at this stage. What use to be a really cool and unique piece if hardware is kind of just a common thing now with many competitors offering beefier iterations of the Switch concept.
I personally feel like releasing a beefier Switch 2 in 2025 may prove to be to little too late. Don't get me wrong, I would be thrilled but I think it's been so damn long now that it kind of makes sense for Nintendo to maybe do something completely new or at least include a gimmick that is a much bigger deal then we have been expecting.
I'm not sure a beefier Switch 2 would be anywhere near as big as a hit as Switch 1 was and honestly to Nintendo's credit, I think they already know and anticipate this.
I think Nintendo might be cooking up something that they hope will greatly surpass consumer expectations. While I think the hybrid approach will be kept, I think there will be something completely new that competitors can't easily copy. No idea what this will be but I do believe Nintendo knows they need more then just a slightly more beefy Switch to really get that forward momentum going again like the Switch was able to do in 2017 when it was a new cool fresh concept.
Beyond hardware I also think Nintendo intends to really push their game development teams to output some truly special games. With Nintendo's major investments into amusement parks and movies based on their IP they know the games themselves will need to keep blowing people away and continue to grow in scope if they want consumers to continue getting excited for the Nintendo ecosystem.
A gorgeous open world Mario, a remake of beloved Ocarina of Time with nice visuals while we wait for the next new Zelda, the next big Mario Kart, etc. I think Nintendo is cooking and has been for a very long time. We haven't had a lot of big Nintendo flagship games in years. The last mainline Mario is nearly 7 years old, Mario Kart 8 is originally from the Wii U. Same with Donkey Kong, etc.
Don't get me wrong, the Nintendo output has continued to be strong but I think a lot of the more current game lineup has been more mid-tier titles in the pantheon of Nintendo's library and I think because the teams intend to cook up something special for the Switch successor.
Switch 2 may be a bigger deal then we may all expect. I don't think Switch 2 or whatever we end up getting can just be a slightly better Switch. I think after such a long wait, the expectations are going to be high and honestly Nintendo knows this. A beefier Switch in 2020 made sense but in 2025 the expectations are going to be much higher, the competition more fierce and Nintendo needs all hands on deck with a product that excites and games that make Switch's best games look dated.
It's been a long wait, the meal has been cooking for a lot longer then anyone of us have wanted to wait but it's likely needing the time to get just right and I think in 2025 we very well might be completely blown away when Nintendo finally comes to the table.
SSDs inherently have better latency (or more directly IOPS) than HDDs, which is where the bulk of the benefits are coming from to begin with. You're already deep in the diminishing returns plateau just by having a SSD that's not terrible.
Sony and Microsoft do seem to have been angling towards trying to use the SSDs in a more RAM-like way to try to go further beyond, but I've always been a bit skeptical about the feasibility of doing that. Even if you could set yourself up to meaningfully leverage that much throughput, which is easier said than done, there's the elephant in the room that is PC, which both Sony and MS are increasingly beholden to.
Saying most of loading is decompression is perhaps overstating things a bit. Moving the data from storage into RAM, decompressing where necessary, is just one of the tasks that's going on when a game is loading. You've also got a lot of other stuff going on, like parsing data, doing scene management and any procedural generation, initialization, figuring out what even needs to be loaded in the first place, etc. Loading is a complicated process, not all of which is especially tightly coupled to what's going on with the storage.
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