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StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (New Staff Post, Please read)

@Anatole I'm not sure if this is what you were referring to with the DLSS times?
Yeah, this was one of the posts I had in mind. I also remember a post/posts that estimated the potential calculation time for DLSS on Dane. The methodology might have been as simple as normalizing the RTX 3000 results to the number of SMs in Dane, but I didn’t want to replicate it naively.
 
Correct. I meant curved in a similar manner to the curve in the PDP Joy-Con Gel Guards.
61AuOfv7VfL._SL1500_.jpg
Are good the ergonomics of these playing with only one joy-con in horizontal? I like the idea of more ergonomics joy-con but the issue is that you need to make them ergonomic enough to be able to play with one of them in horizontal and I don't think that this is.
 
I'm talking about with DLSS too. Computation time is relative to output resolution, so aiming lower at 1440p or 1800p and then letting the tv do the rest of the work, devs can squeeze more out of the system

I'm not so sure of this, I think we see plenty of 4k DLSS Switch games but they will probably prioritize 30fps over 60 in many of those cases...
I think the major difference with DLSS working on high-end graphics cards is that those cards in comparison have enough raw computational power to perform without DLSS.

Everything we currently know about this 4k Switch would suggest it was engineered to get the most out of using DLSS as it's primary feature, so I fully expect enough modifications to help assist this chip in doing just that for developers needs.
 
Are good the ergonomics of these playing with only one joy-con in horizontal? I like the idea of more ergonomics joy-con but the issue is that you need to make them ergonomic enough to be able to play with one of them in horizontal and I don't think that this is.
Keep in mind that I very rarely play with a single Joy-Con in a horizontal grip. Saying that, the ergonomics of a single Joy-Con in a horizontal grip with the PDP Joy-Con Gel Guards installed seemed good to me.
 
"Super Switch 4K" will have exclusive games unable to run on the first model (at least third party), isn't that enough to decry it as a successor?

Hypothetically Nintendo could offer, along with Nvidia, the same cloud-based titles on the base model, but that's a different discussion.
 
"Super Switch 4K" will have exclusive games unable to run on the first model (at least third party), isn't that enough to decry it as a successor?

Hypothetically Nintendo could offer, along with Nvidia, the same cloud-based titles on the base model, but that's a different discussion.
Game Boy Color had exclusives, DSi had exclusives, n3DS had exclusives. but those were all much smaller leaps in performance than Dane Switch

I'm not so sure of this, I think we see plenty of 4k DLSS Switch games but they will probably prioritize 30fps over 60 in many of those cases...
I think the major difference with DLSS working on high-end graphics cards is that those cards in comparison have enough raw computational power to perform without DLSS.

Everything we currently know about this 4k Switch would suggest it was engineered to get the most out of using DLSS as it's primary feature, so I fully expect enough modifications to help assist this chip in doing just that for developers needs.
maybe if the game in question is already on the base Switch. but Dane exclusives and down ports from Series and PS5, I'm not expecting it to hit 4K output. maybe if Lovelace's 4th gen tensor cores are another big leap in performance or nvidia/nintendo make a new algorithm that's faster at teh expense of quality
 
Game Boy Color had exclusives, DSi had exclusives, n3DS had exclusives. but those were all much smaller leaps in performance than Dane Switch


maybe if the game in question is already on the base Switch. but Dane exclusives and down ports from Series and PS5, I'm not expecting it to hit 4K output. maybe if Lovelace's 4th gen tensor cores are another big leap in performance or nvidia/nintendo make a new algorithm that's faster at teh expense of quality
In fact on these platforms the exclusives were few, right?
I imagine that the softwarehouse won't mind bringing hundreds of titles to Dane, especially those that have asked Nintendo for more power and those that have stopped in front of technical problems related to the first Switch.
 
"Super Switch 4K" will have exclusive games unable to run on the first model (at least third party), isn't that enough to decry it as a successor?

Hypothetically Nintendo could offer, along with Nvidia, the same cloud-based titles on the base model, but that's a different discussion.

The thing is that the next shot at a new Tegra from Nvidia is something based on Atlan in 2025 at the earliest. Nintendo has to follow Nvidias schedule. Its very unlikely they have anything in development for Nintendo that's not based on either Orin (Dane), or Atlan.

Successor/ pro whatever is just marketing and positioning. The chip will be the same regardless.
 
In fact on these platforms the exclusives were few, right?
I imagine that the softwarehouse won't mind bringing hundreds of titles to Dane, especially those that have asked Nintendo for more power and those that have stopped in front of technical problems related to the first Switch.
There were over 600 GBC only games, I believe, and over 300 DSIWARE releases. Only the New 3DS didn't have hundred of them, but I doubt that was what Nintendo wanted.
 
The thing is that the next shot at a new Tegra from Nvidia is something based on Atlan in 2025 at the earliest. Nintendo has to follow Nvidias schedule. Its very unlikely they have anything in development for Nintendo that's not based on either Orin (Dane), or Atlan.

Successor/ pro whatever is just marketing and positioning. The chip will be the same regardless.
Yes, beyond the name (and the Tegra generation), I was thinking that if a console gets several exclusive titles that take advantage of the new power you can technically talk about a "successor".

Basically that's what's expected, Nintendo will probably continue to bring their titles to both but the third parties won't, at least not all of them.
 
as always the third party exclusives that have been mentioned by Nate who is one the most reliable sources on Nintendo future hardware are related to games available on other platforms such as PS4/Xbox but incapable of running on the base Switch (or at least to a satisfactory level).

Imagine games like FFVIIR, the more recent Resident Evil games, etc. I'm mentioning those franchises because Capcom and Square Enix are more than likely among the companies who received early dev kits (aside from close partners like Hal Laboratory or Intelligent Systems) but that doesn't mean Nate has hinted at those games in particular, in fact he never elaborated on the scope or size of those exclusives (whether they're indie, AA or AAA).

This isn't enough as of right now to consider it evidence of the dane being positioned as a successor by Nintendo, there is still a likelyhood it will be positioned as a higher price sku for hardcore users for the first few years before we can expect a full discontinuation of the mariko line.
 
Yeah, this was one of the posts I had in mind. I also remember a post/posts that estimated the potential calculation time for DLSS on Dane. The methodology might have been as simple as normalizing the RTX 3000 results to the number of SMs in Dane, but I didn’t want to replicate it naively.
It was probably Thraktor, or it could have been Zedark, or maybe Mercury_Sgt

I'm unsure if those would jog your mind
 
as always the third party exclusives that have been mentioned by Nate who is one the most reliable sources on Nintendo future hardware are related to games available on other platforms such as PS4/Xbox but incapable of running on the base Switch (or at least to a satisfactory level).

Imagine games like FFVIIR, the more recent Resident Evil games, etc. I'm mentioning those franchises because Capcom and Square Enix are more than likely among the companies who received early dev kits (aside from close partners like Hal Laboratory or Intelligent Systems) but that doesn't mean Nate has hinted at those games in particular, in fact he never elaborated on the scope or size of those exclusives (whether they're indie, AA or AAA).

This isn't enough as of right now to consider it evidence of the dane being positioned as a successor by Nintendo, there is still a likelyhood it will be positioned as a higher price sku for hardcore users for the first few years before we can expect a full discontinuation of the mariko line.

There, such a move would be interesting and I wonder how Nintendo would market it.
"A SKU that is not a successor to the current Switch, running new games that only a successor could run." :unsure:

There were over 600 GBC only games, I believe, and over 300 DSIWARE releases. Only the New 3DS didn't have hundred of them, but I doubt that was what Nintendo wanted.

Well yes, 20 years ago the addition of a color screen was a game changer, but now you have to upgrade the hardware (intended as power).
SwitchOled won't get exclusive games because of the better looking screen and with the New3DS in fact things were very different.
 
Well yes, 20 years ago the addition of a color screen was a game changer, but now you have to upgrade the hardware (intended as power).
SwitchOled won't get exclusive games because of the better looking screen and with the New3DS in fact things were very different.
the Gameboy Color also had a more 2x clocked CPU boost
 
There, such a move would be interesting and I wonder how Nintendo would market it.
"A SKU that is not a successor to the current Switch, running new games that only a successor could run." :unsure:
Initially when the Switch came out, they didn't advertise it as a "successor" but more like a pillar in addition to the 3DS and mobile despite everyone knowing that the 3DS was very much on its last legs.

I expect the same kind of messaging for Dane, the difference being that the mariko Switch will die out in a much more graceful way instead of losing most of its momentum in less than a year similarly to how the 3DS popularity basically halted once the Switch was out.

It's also why I can see dane or whatever it'll end up being called being sold at 400 - 450 minimum since Nintendo has their cheaper hardware to fall back on.

Obviously my reasoning hinges on the fact that I expect dane to release between september 2022 or early 2023.
 
Initially when the Switch came out, they didn't advertise it as a "successor" but more like a pillar in addition to the 3DS and mobile despite everyone knowing that the 3DS was very much on its last legs.

I expect the same kind of messaging for Dane, the difference being that the mariko Switch will die out in a much more graceful way instead of losing most of its momentum in less than a year similarly to how the 3DS popularity basically halted once the Switch was out.

It's also why I can see dane or whatever it'll end up being called being sold at 400 - 450 minimum since Nintendo has their cheaper hardware to fall back on.

Obviously my reasoning hinges on the fact that I expect dane to release between september 2022 or early 2023.

Interesting, I didn't remember it not being announced as a successor.

I hope though that (however it's presented) Nintendo doesn't create the same confusion that there was with the Wii U; some people didn't seem to understand that it was the Wii successor.
 
Interesting, I didn't remember it not being announced as a successor.

I hope though that (however it's presented) Nintendo doesn't create the same confusion that there was with the Wii U; some people didn't seem to understand that it was the Wii successor.

One of Nintendo biggest struggle has been able to easily transition from a successful platform to another (at least on the console front). With the Switch and Nvidia they have a unique opportunity to not lose momentum both in terms of mindshare as well as software development since I'm gonna assume most games until 2025 at least will be developed with mariko in mind.

This allows Nintendo to not have a "drought" period where they release either no games or low quality effort software while prepping their next hardware. Again I could be eating my words if nothing gets released until end of 2023 but I'm fairly confident into thinking the crossgen period will be significantly long regardless, similarly to how Sony is handling it.
 
I kinda think the transition will be quick. There will be a big backlog of games that third parties can make available on Dane switch, making it immediately more desirable day one compared to other Nintendo systems. Imagine launching with Red Dead 3, Cyberpunk, Suicide Squad, and Final Fantasy 7, all in addition to Breath of the Wild 2
 
Yes, beyond the name (and the Tegra generation), I was thinking that if a console gets several exclusive titles that take advantage of the new power you can technically talk about a "successor".

Basically that's what's expected, Nintendo will probably continue to bring their titles to both but the third parties won't, at least not all of them.
I think they're basically going to do the same as Xbox this generation.

Same OS, same digital store, slightly tweaked joy cons, extended cross gen period, enchanced bc.

If a third party wants to release an exclusive game, go ahead. But for first party, expect years of cross gen.
 
I think they're basically going to do the same as Xbox this generation.

Same OS, same digital store, slightly tweaked joy cons, extended cross gen period, enchanced bc.

If a third party wants to release an exclusive game, go ahead. But for first party, expect years of cross gen.

True, that wouldn't be bad!

"Nintendo Switch series D(ane)" 😀
They could continue with Switch and at the same time add the premium SKU.

I kinda think the transition will be quick. There will be a big backlog of games that third parties can make available on Dane switch, making it immediately more desirable day one compared to other Nintendo systems. Imagine launching with Red Dead 3, Cyberpunk, Suicide Squad, and Final Fantasy 7, all in addition to Breath of the Wild 2

I hope Ubisoft is also preparing something (the Assassin's Creed post Black Flag and maybe Far Cry) since this year, if I'm not mistaken, the only thing coming on Switch is Just Dance 😕
 
Outside of beefier hardware, what else should Nintendo add to the new Switch?

They already have gyro/IR, HD rumble, OLED screen and amiibo/NFC tech. What else can they add to be an upgrade over the current Switch?
Make the dock stream like the wiiu for asymetrical multiplayer games, like wii gamepad + tv.
 
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I hope Ubisoft is also preparing something (the Assassin's Creed post Black Flag and maybe Far Cry) since this year, if I'm not mistaken, the only thing coming on Switch is Just Dance 😕
there's also Mario and Rabbids

maybe they'll throw Nintendo a bone with a launch game. shouldn't the next AssCreed be out by then?
 
I guess these are worth bringing back, as they added to the discussion imo



giving an idea of how Ampere (and by extension Lovelace) work
 
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I'm not so sure of this, I think we see plenty of 4k DLSS Switch games but they will probably prioritize 30fps over 60 in many of those cases...
I think the major difference with DLSS working on high-end graphics cards is that those cards in comparison have enough raw computational power to perform without DLSS.

Everything we currently know about this 4k Switch would suggest it was engineered to get the most out of using DLSS as it's primary feature, so I fully expect enough modifications to help assist this chip in doing just that for developers needs.
Is that something customizable? I was under the impression that the number of tensor cores per SM is fixed for a given architecture, i.e. that Dane would be composed of Lovelace SMs. If that were true, then Nintendo couldn’t scale tensor performance without increasing the number of SMs and/or the clock speed, which would affect the power budget.
 
there's also Mario and Rabbids

maybe they'll throw Nintendo a bone with a launch game. shouldn't the next AssCreed be out by then?
True, but Mario + Rabbids is coming out next year.
2021 just with Just Dance is very sad :confused: considering also that they could have brought one of the Far Cry releases on ps360 and introduced the series to more players.

I don't know when they plan to release the next Assassin's Creed but I imagine they will proceed by porting all the chapters from last generation (I think there are 5), maybe in some collection.
 
I kinda think the transition will be quick. There will be a big backlog of games that third parties can make available on Dane switch, making it immediately more desirable day one compared to other Nintendo systems. Imagine launching with Red Dead 3, Cyberpunk, Suicide Squad, and Final Fantasy 7, all in addition to Breath of the Wild 2
Beyond Good and Evil 2
 
I kinda think the transition will be quick. There will be a big backlog of games that third parties can make available on Dane switch, making it immediately more desirable day one compared to other Nintendo systems. Imagine launching with Red Dead 3, Cyberpunk, Suicide Squad, and Final Fantasy 7, all in addition to Breath of the Wild 2

Yeah. Switch 2 is going to get an absolute ton of third party PS4/Xbox One ports.

Capcom will bring RE2, RE3, RE7 and RE Village and probably even Monster Hunter World.

Square will bring FFXV, FFVII remake and who knows, maybe even FF XVI if it’s a cross gen title.
 
Is that something customizable? I was under the impression that the number of tensor cores per SM is fixed for a given architecture, i.e. that Dane would be composed of Lovelace SMs. If that were true, then Nintendo couldn’t scale tensor performance without increasing the number of SMs and/or the clock speed, which would affect the power budget.
it could be customized, but that's a hefty design cost. such is why Nvidia started using desktop designs for battery devices starting with Kepler.
 
Yeah. Switch 2 is going to get an absolute ton of third party PS4/Xbox One ports.

Capcom will bring RE2, RE3, RE7 and RE Village and probably even Monster Hunter World.

Square will bring FFXV, FFVII remake and who knows, maybe even FF XVI if it’s a cross gen title.
yeah..... no lol

Those probably aren't happening from SE, I can see FFXV though, maybe XIV but that’s just that, a maybe. Would be nice though to have.

7RE and 16? I doubt it, or I doubt it would come for a very long time.

I also doubt Monster Hunter World since we have rise and sunbreak already.
 
@Anatole I think I might have found it:

The post that I am imagining in my head estimated the time for DLSS to run on 2-3 potential Dane configurations in ms. TBH, I may be remembering a composite of various related posts.

With that said, I replied to this Thraktor post at the time, and the results still puzzle me. In theory, the cost of DLSS should marginally increase with input resolution, since the earliest layers in the neural network are at input resolution. However, that cost should be fairly negligible (less than 10% of the total cost in the Kaplanyan/Facebook paper) compared to the reconstruction cost at output resolution.

With that in mind, it doesn’t make sense to me that the DLSS compute time should decrease as input resolution increases from 1080p to 1440p. Assuming Thraktor’s tests were controlled correctly (more on that below), the only explanation that I can think of is that Performance, Ultra Performance, and Quality modes already use somewhat different network architectures.

The way that a CNN works is independent of resolution because the weights are shared. That concept (parameter sharing) is one of the main advantage of CNNs, because it means there are fewer weights to train. Besides, from an image processing perspective, it would be a poor choice to use different weights for each pixel position, since the information at those pixel positions is different in each frame. So instead you train a filter, often a 3x3 or 5x5 pixel filter, that loops over each pixel in the frame.

In theory, since you have parameter sharing, you could use the same neural network for each mode. It would be a conscious decision on Nvidia’s part to train a different network for each mode to improve either cost or image quality. If this were true, Thraktor’s results suggest that Performance mode may use a deeper, more computationally expensive network than Quality mode.

This would make the names something of a misnomer, although it does make a certain amount of sense - for example, it makes intuitive sense that you would need a deeper network to reconstruct a “4K” looking image from 720p frames than from 1080p frames.

This doesn’t fully account for what happens when DRS and DLSS are combined. For example, which network would be used when scaling from 900p to 4K - performance or ultra performance? I am not sure.

I am hesitant to make any conclusions based on Thraktor’s tests alone. Taking the median frame time seems reasonable, but I am not sure if manually walking through a set path is controlled enough for the 0.3 ms margins we’re talking about. Plus, we haven’t seen any indication that the networks are different elsewhere. It’s an interesting possibility for the sake of discussion though.

(edited heavily to reorganize paragraphs and improve clarity)
 
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yeah..... no lol

Those probably aren't happening from SE, I can see FFXV though, maybe XIV but that’s just that, a maybe. Would be nice though to have.

7RE and 16? I doubt it, or I doubt it would come for a very long time.

I also doubt Monster Hunter World since we have rise and sunbreak already.

Those FF games are only timed exclusives aren’t they? They’ll come to Switch as soon as the hardware can handle them as long as the timed deal is over. Hardly a ‘yeah no lol’ scenario.
 
I wonder how many oled buyers will be angry if nintendo announces the switch DLSS model next year. Not everyone is in the know that there is a new model coming and look at forums for rumors. I wonder what the reaction will be for those people
I would find that super, super weird, moreso because PS5 only released 4 years after the PS4 Pro came out. And PS4 still gets a lot of cross gen support.
Dane being Switch 2 instead of an actual New 3DS or Xbox One X or Game Boy Color like revision would be a shock for me. I expect a big leap and some exclusive games, but it's not like we hadn't seen big leaps between OG models and revisions before. I think Dane will largely expand the Switch life cycle instead of ending it.
 
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People keep mentioning Lovelace, I’m confused, isn’t that what’s coming after Orin? What relevance would Lovelace have for Switch 4k?
 
"Super Switch 4K" will have exclusive games unable to run on the first model (at least third party), isn't that enough to decry it as a successor?

Hypothetically Nintendo could offer, along with Nvidia, the same cloud-based titles on the base model, but that's a different discussion.
I don't think so. New Nintendo 3DS and Game Boy Color had first party exclusive games, and yet were still counted as 3DS and GB. That's the bigger difference between Nintendo revisions to what the PS4 Pro and XBSX were. I'm certain there are PS5 and Series X games that would run fine on Pro and X but not on the base versions, so they won't be released just in the premium model. Whereas some games were released only on GBC and New 3DS, but most of the games were compatible with the OG model and major games came for the OG models years after the revisions came. (Like most of the 2015-2018 major games for 3DS released for both models, sole exceptions were FE Warriors and Xenoblade Chronicles 3D, with major games like Pokémon games releasing even in 2017).
 
People keep mentioning Lovelace, I’m confused, isn’t that what’s coming after Orin? What relevance would Lovelace have for Switch 4k?
Lovelace succeeds Ampere, the current GPU arch. Orin is succeeded by Atlan. Kopite7Kimi, a gpu leaker said Orin and Dane moved to Lovelace arch from Ampere

For Galaxy in the 3D All Stars? Or is it gonna be used in more games eventually?
it was Super Mario Sunshine that NERD used AI upscaling on, and for the cutscenes. but NERD and NCL's patent was for using AI upscaling in real time like DLSS
 
as always the third party exclusives that have been mentioned by Nate who is one the most reliable sources on Nintendo future hardware are related to games available on other platforms such as PS4/Xbox but incapable of running on the base Switch (or at least to a satisfactory level).

Imagine games like FFVIIR, the more recent Resident Evil games, etc. I'm mentioning those franchises because Capcom and Square Enix are more than likely among the companies who received early dev kits (aside from close partners like Hal Laboratory or Intelligent Systems) but that doesn't mean Nate has hinted at those games in particular, in fact he never elaborated on the scope or size of those exclusives (whether they're indie, AA or AAA).

This isn't enough as of right now to consider it evidence of the dane being positioned as a successor by Nintendo, there is still a likelyhood it will be positioned as a higher price sku for hardcore users for the first few years before we can expect a full discontinuation of the mariko line.
I agree with this. I think we can see like a Resident Evil VIllage or REmake 4 port for Dane, but the biggest shine will be Resident Evil Outrage that will come for the OG Switch and made with the Switch in mind. So I expect third party exclusives and timed exclusives and first party games to be all compatible with the OG Switch, while benefiting from DLSS and more power to look better, whereas multiplat games that wouldn't be able to run on OG would be ported exclusively for Dane.
 
Lovelace succeeds Ampere, the current GPU arch. Orin is succeeded by Atlan. Kopite7Kimi, a gpu leaker said Orin and Dane moved to Lovelace arch from Ampere
Oh, I completely missed that, I thought Dane and Orin were Ampere. When did this leaker say they moved to Lovelace?
 
Beyond Good and Evil 2
That thing is never coming lol we can expect it for PS6. Or for never.


/s, but not that much, I think it'll be rebooted into a smaller scale and more like the first game or the original trailer for the sequel.
 
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