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StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (New Staff Post, Please read)

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Dekuman said:
One thing that's puzzling to me is the HD-2D video capture in the trailer in Live A Live trailer and the eshop screens is so much cleaner and higher resolution than Octopath or Triangle Strategy Triangle strategy's low resolution is particularly bad compared to LiveALive

Perhaps its not pushing DOF, using a different engine, which allows for them to push for higher resolution but could this be a hint of new hardware?
I know Nate had commented Switch Sports and Mario Kart deluxe press packet screenshots were in 6k resolution, though he thought it doesnt mean anything.

Very hard to share screenshots from the shop pages but you can have a look here.
www.nintendo.com

LIVE A LIVE for Nintendo Switch - Nintendo Official Site

Buy LIVE A LIVE and shop other great Nintendo products online at the official My Nintendo Store.
www.nintendo.com www.nintendo.com

www.nintendo.com

TRIANGLE STRATEGY™ for Nintendo Switch™ - Nintendo Game Details

Strategically command a group of warriors in a tangled plot where your decisions make all the difference. Experience a stunning HD-2D tactical adventure from Square Enix.
www.nintendo.com www.nintendo.com

www.nintendo.com

Octopath Traveler™ for Nintendo Switch - Nintendo Official Site

Buy Octopath Traveler™ and shop other great Nintendo products online at the official My Nintendo Store.
www.nintendo.com www.nintendo.com

Edit: At the end of the Character Trailer of LiveALive the HD-2D logo is branded as 1.2 (version 1.2?)
Click to expand...

It's using the latest/later version of Unreal Engine, which has received numerous optimization for Switch.
 
Dekuman said:
The eshop page was created when it was exclusive, they didn't change the screenshots after the timed exclusivity ended LOL.
The comparison is on the Switch versions at time these assets went up and LiveALive's assets clearly looks much better. I'm open for suggestions, heck i even offered up the HD-2D v1.2 being a likely possibility, but your line of reasoning is just bizarre.
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I don't see what's bizarre about suggesting there might be PC footage of a game that's probably releasing on PC eventually. That gap certainly isn't for technical reasons.
 
SiG said:
It's using the latest/later version of Unreal Engine, which has received numerous optimization for Switch.
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it's releasing 4 months after Triangle Strategy but yes it appears to be using HD-2D 1.2 whatever that means
Pokemaniac said:
I don't see what's bizarre about suggesting there might be PC footage of a game that's probably releasing on PC eventually. That gap certainly isn't for technical reasons.
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no interest in arguing with you in circles, i think your point about it being potential bullshots is fine, if this was Ubisoft, but you probably forgot LiveALive is being published by Nintendo. The comments around them not curating screenshots, Octopath not being exclusive anymore despite the eshop page being made when it was exclusive just makes no sense in the context of the discussion. i get your reasoning, but the point is there are Nintendo published or will these games and LiveALive's screenshots and trailer looks real good.

As for the PC screenshot arguments, why not also use them for Triangle Strategy which looks quite blurry next to LiveAlive, game is also not out yet and still exclusive. I frankly don't believe these PC versions even exists, they won't be arriving for at least another year as both games are not out yet.

Anyways porbably just a new engine, which is what i suspect, but this weird tangent about bullshots , curation etc is not worth the time.
 
Dekuman said:
no interest in arguing with you in circles, i think your point about it being potential bullshots is fine, if this was Ubisoft, but you probably forgot LiveALive is being published by Nintendo. The comments around them not curating screenshots, Octopath not being exclusive anymore despite the eshop page being made when it was exclusive just makes no sense in the context of the discussion. i get your reasoning, but the point is there are Nintendo published or will these games and LiveALive's screenshots and trailer looks real good.

As for the PC screenshot arguments, why not also use them for Triangle Strategy which looks quite blurry next to LiveAlive, game is also not out yet and still exclusive. I frankly don't believe these PC versions even exists, they won't be arriving for at least another year as both games are not out yet.

Anyways porbably just a new engine, which is what i suspect, but this weird tangent about bullshots , curation etc is not worth the time.
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Nintendo regularly publishes bullshots. Rather infamously when it comes to Zelda. They're not above the practice.
 
Dekuman said:
I think it's fine to admit you got this one wrong.
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sc8uyu.jpg

Sure don't remember Hyrule Warriors: Age of Calamity running at a resolution anywhere near this high.
 
I'm reminded of Nintendo putting out super clean Skyward Sword screenshots in 1080p(or was it 4k?) back in the Wii days lol.
 
Hermii said:
I’m reminded of people thinking basically every game at e3 looking too good for base switch lol.
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I do say that could partially be due to big exclusive titles usually pushing the Switch closer to it's absolute limit in terms of optimization usually.

Although that will likely end with XBC3, BOTW2, whatever the next Mario is, and maybe Mario+Rabbids 2
 
Alovon11 said:
I do say that could partially be due to big exclusive titles usually pushing the Switch closer to it's absolute limit in terms of optimization usually.

Although that will likely end with XBC3, BOTW2, whatever the next Mario is, and maybe Mario+Rabbids 2
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Yeah it’s partial that, and partially because of massive amounts of confirmation bias.
 
If anything, the whole idea of "enhanced for Switch Plus/Pro/Successor" titles that would include the backlog of launch titles of Switch now seems more credible given that Mario Kart 8 Deluxe, a game that hasn't gotten any updates in a while, suddenly getting paid DLC would mean Nintendo would be willing to investing in patching and supporting all existing titles to make them future proof for the next system should talks about DLSS actually be a thing.
 
I would imagine that most 1st party evergreen titles would get enhancement patches, outside of games like Splatoon 2 and probably Pokemon games pre-Arceus (And I could even seen Arceus not getting a patch).
 
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Polygon said:
I doubt it will receive a DLSS patch either.
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I'm not so sure about that, considering Nintendo's about to patch a 5 year old game to accept DLC that will keep recieving updates until 2023 (Mario Kart 8 Deluxe).

It's not outside the realms of possibility to ask Monolithsoft to integrate DLSS into Xenoblade Chronicles 2 by simply replacing the TAA pipeline with Nvidia's implementation. Doesn't matter how old the game is, either.

For that matter, they would actually have incentive to patch all their 1st party titles with DLSS support, even for something like ARMS and 1-2-Switch.
 
Skittzo said:
I don't even mean that they should know about it as insiders, I just mean when you speculate on it just like we do from an outside perspective I'm confused about how they rationalize that report about 11 devs having devkits and come up with a conclusion that no hardware is launching until 2024.

And I don't just mean them, but regular forumgoers like us here. I'm not understanding how that report is constantly being brushed aside, the reasoning for ignoring or disbelieving it doesn't quite make sense to me.
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I don't understand it either. On Install Base, for example, I saw some people dismiss this and the "Nintendo telling devs to make their games 4K ready" as bullshit spread by 'insiders'. It's crazy when people dismiss things like this from credible outlets, even if misinterpretation can happen.
 
ReddDreadtheLead said:
Not quite, even comparing it to the RTX 2060 which has many more tensor cores and the TOPs of this hypothetical device would be on the very low end, even with the improvements to Ampere for the way Tensor Cores function, it would require like ~12ms to super sample an image via DLSS and the rest would need to render the image within the 16.6ms frame Buffer which may not be enough time. It would be enough for a 33.3ms frame time though which would be fine for 30FPS titles.

If they use it solely for 1440p which you need a 4K TV anyway to use for the market Nintendo targets, supersampled from 1080p.

Which can be enough for 60FPS.
Click to expand...

Issue for example involving bandwidth, if they keep 2x 2GB then with LPDD5X at its maximum speed would be nearly 70gbps compared to LPDDR4 25.6gbps while if they go for 4x 2gb then bandwidth would be nearly 140gbps hence 5.5 times greater bandwidth than base Switch.

Another issue is ROP and TMU ratio, Dane could have 4 times SMs yet then bottlenecked compared to Tegra X1 that has 8 TMUs and 8 ROPs per SM.

edit: Any Switch that is 2019 revision and OLED model has LPDDR4X, Mariko SOC and still have sake cooling as baseline Switch hence they could if they wanted to is to raise clocks of RAM to 2133mhz and GPU to 1Ghz.

Primary issue is that Koei Tecmo leans too much on filling screen with enemies that bothering to have competent gameplay and AI being dead brained regardless even if it was PS5. Along going overboard with effects.
 
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SiG said:
I'm not so sure about that, considering Nintendo's about to patch a 5 year old game to accept DLC that will keep recieving updates until 2023 (Mario Kart 8 Deluxe).

It's not outside the realms of possibility to ask Monolithsoft to integrate DLSS into Xenoblade Chronicles 2 by simply replacing the TAA pipeline with Nvidia's implementation. Doesn't matter how old the game is, either.

For that matter, they would actually have incentive to patch all their 1st party titles with DLSS support, even for something like ARMS and 1-2-Switch.
Click to expand...
Especially when a lot of their games share an engine.
 
SiG said:
I'm not so sure about that, considering Nintendo's about to patch a 5 year old game to accept DLC that will keep recieving updates until 2023 (Mario Kart 8 Deluxe).

It's not outside the realms of possibility to ask Monolithsoft to integrate DLSS into Xenoblade Chronicles 2 by simply replacing the TAA pipeline with Nvidia's implementation. Doesn't matter how old the game is, either.

For that matter, they would actually have incentive to patch all their 1st party titles with DLSS support, even for something like ARMS and 1-2-Switch.
Click to expand...

Watch all of the upgrades cost $10, or be included in NSO Expansion Pack :)
 
SiG said:
I'm not so sure about that, considering Nintendo's about to patch a 5 year old game to accept DLC that will keep recieving updates until 2023 (Mario Kart 8 Deluxe).

It's not outside the realms of possibility to ask Monolithsoft to integrate DLSS into Xenoblade Chronicles 2 by simply replacing the TAA pipeline with Nvidia's implementation. Doesn't matter how old the game is, either.

For that matter, they would actually have incentive to patch all their 1st party titles with DLSS support, even for something like ARMS and 1-2-Switch.
Click to expand...
They’re updating Mario Kart to sell $25 DLC or get people subscribed to Online+ though. I hope you’re right I just don’t see the majority of 2017-2020 games being patched for it outside of a few big name games like BotW and SMO.

The dynamic 1080p games and games that drop below their framerate target should be improved automatically though.
 
Quoted by: SiG
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Any patches are going to highly depend on the producer/lead for each individual game. Unless Nintendo mandates it or use NERD as their middleman. I could see MK8 getting the treatment while waiting for MK10 same with SSB. But a game like Splatoon 2 probably not or ARMS the same deal. But like I said it is going to be on a case by case basis as is with many a Nintendo game. As we see with stuff like cloud saves for instance.
 
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WAW_Greyhound said:
Issue for example involving bandwidth, if they keep 2x 2GB then with LPDD5X at its maximum speed would be nearly 70gbps compared to LPDDR4 25.6gbps while if they go for 4x 2gb then bandwidth would be nearly 140gbps hence 5.5 times greater bandwidth than base Switch.

Another issue is ROP and TMU ratio, Dane could have 4 times SMs yet then bottlenecked compared to Tegra X1 that has 8 TMUs and 8 ROPs per SM.

edit: Any Switch that is 2019 revision and OLED model has LPDDR4X, Mariko SOC and still have sake cooling as baseline Switch hence they could if they wanted to is to raise clocks of RAM to 2133mhz and GPU to 1Ghz.

Primary issue is that Koei Tecmo leans too much on filling screen with enemies that bothering to have competent gameplay and AI being dead brained regardless even if it was PS5. Along going overboard with effects.
Click to expand...

That's the biggest difference with Ampere over previous Nvidia architectures, it's the first to scale it's ROP's to the actual GPC.
Before this Nvidia tied ROP's to the memory controller, hence the GTX 970 and its (legendary or infamous) history for the 3.5GB of RAM...

"The GPC is the dominant high-level hardware block with all of the key graphics processing units residing inside the GPC. Each GPC includes a dedicated Raster Engine, and now also includes two ROP partitions (each partition containing eight ROP units), which is a new feature for NVIDIA Ampere Architecture GA10x GPUs."

The one area that Ampere won't have an issue with is how many ROP's it has up and down the stack, cache and memory bandwidth on the other hand is the difference maker.
 
I think updates would be a mandate from higher up for certain games. stuff that's constantly updated while the new system launches like Splatoon 3 and Mario Kart 8 would get it.

games that are showpieces like Breath of the Wild 2 or Xenoblade would get it

beyond that, if the game has a dedicated team like Xenoblade, Kirby, or Mario Strikers, they could get it
 
I expect anything actively in support when Dane releases will probably get patched sooner or later (unless it was made by Game Freak, I don't expect them to acknowledge the hardware exists any sooner than Gen 9 as per usual).

Beyond that, it's really going to be a case by case thing. Nintendo is no stranger to randomly patching their old games, at least ones they've made internally, but I don't think they'll do it across the board because that's a lot of QA. Games they didn't make internally will probably depend on the specific teams that did make the game.
 
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Alovon11 said:
Yeah, whole footage is a bit of a thing I think is just optimization.

But the press images are...weird
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Skyward sword’s press images were 720p back in the day
And I know several 3DS games press images were well above 240p
It is never really indicative of new hardware… they just like to have their games look nice for media outlets

Also regardless of platform games are made on computers they can render at any resolution they want

Unreal specifically can render at like 16k or 32k something incredible like that haha
 
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Nintendo indeed has a history of using bullshots. It is historically less egregious than other companies, since its mostly rendering the game at higher resolution. On many cases I don't blame then. Native resolution 3ds games upscaled for website and print articles would have make the game look worse than what you get on the 3DS, for example. Similarly for SD games on a CRT (Wii).

However, it is less understandable to use them for Wii U and Switch games...
 
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Polygon said:
They’re updating Mario Kart to sell $25 DLC or get people subscribed to Online+ though. I hope you’re right I just don’t see the majority of 2017-2020 games being patched for it outside of a few big name games like BotW and SMO.
Click to expand...
We've seen a lot of games get surprise late-life patches. Heck, even ARMS, BotW, and Splatoon 2 all got patches even long after development for their DLCs done and work on the games were considered "finished"

I can see all of them getting patched should implementation of DLSS be deemed that easy, and from the results we've shown there are already a high number of games that support the technology. Of course, it cannot be a system level thing, but it shouldn't be too much hassle to just change a few lines of code or two (partaining to resolution, AA implementation, and mipmap/LODs), run a quick QA to confirm the patch didn't brick anything, and be off their merry way. Should any issues arise, well, they could issue another patch to solve that.

It's not like they're adding any additional content to the game. It's just supporting features that a potential future hardware with such technologies would allow them to basically improve existing games with way less effort than having to rework them from the ground up.
 
NineTailSage said:
That's the biggest difference with Ampere over previous Nvidia architectures, it's the first to scale it's ROP's to the actual GPC.
Before this Nvidia tied ROP's to the memory controller, hence the GTX 970 and its (legendary or infamous) history for the 3.5GB of RAM...

"The GPC is the dominant high-level hardware block with all of the key graphics processing units residing inside the GPC. Each GPC includes a dedicated Raster Engine, and now also includes two ROP partitions (each partition containing eight ROP units), which is a new feature for NVIDIA Ampere Architecture GA10x GPUs."

The one area that Ampere won't have an issue with is how many ROP's it has up and down the stack, cache and memory bandwidth on the other hand is the difference maker.
Click to expand...
I have trouble understanding exactly what does that mean, simply few ROP's bundled together into a cluster nor I am good with accronyms. GPC? Refers to SM?
 
SiG said:
We've seen a lot of games get surprise late-life patches. Heck, even ARMS, BotW, and Splatoon 2 all got patches even long after development for their DLCs done and work on the games were considered "finished"

I can see all of them getting patched should implementation of DLSS be deemed that easy, and from the results we've shown there are already a high number of games that support the technology. Of course, it cannot be a system level thing, but it shouldn't be too much hassle to just change a few lines of code or two (partaining to resolution, AA implementation, and mipmap/LODs), run a quick QA to confirm the patch didn't brick anything, and be off their merry way. Should any issues arise, well, they could issue another patch to solve that.

It's not like they're adding any additional content to the game. It's just supporting features that a potential future hardware with such technologies would allow them to basically improve existing games with way less effort than having to rework them from the ground up.
Click to expand...
here's hoping some third party games too.

Bayonetta 1+2, Witcher.. as well as some 60fps boosts like some shooters (lol Fortnite)

Editing to include Doom + Wolfeinstein games, and other Platinum games.
 
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When talking about Dane patches, could they not implement some type ‘Boost Mode’ at system level to help increase performance? Then certain titles get proper updates to update graphical effects etc..?
 
ITSMILNER said:
When talking about Dane patches, could they not implement some type ‘Boost Mode’ at system level to help increase performance? Then certain titles get proper updates to update graphical effects etc..?
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that's the minimum expectation for patches. if games get patches. some games (mostly nintendo games) need more work to get DLSS as they don't typically have any form of AA, but not impossible with a patch
 
ILikeFeet said:
that's the minimum expectation for patches. if games get patches. some games (mostly nintendo games) need more work to get DLSS as they don't typically have any form of AA, but not impossible with a patch
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I think @ITSMILNER is referring to a system-wide boost mode that enhances Switch games without any need for a patch.

To answer that question, it could help some games that struggle with framerate or dynamic resolution probably, as long as it doesn't break compatibility. But it wouldn't be able to do more than that.
 
Skittzo said:
I think @ITSMILNER is referring to a system-wide boost mode that enhances Switch games without any need for a patch.

To answer that question, it could help some games that struggle with framerate or dynamic resolution probably, as long as it doesn't break compatibility. But it wouldn't be able to do more than that.
Click to expand...

Yeah this is what I was thinking, just a system level option that would still give games some benefits if they don’t receive specific Dane patches.
 
ITSMILNER said:
Yeah this is what I was thinking, just a system level option that would still give games some benefits if they don’t receive specific Dane patches.
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I don’t think a78 is even capable of being as slow as a 1ghz a58, so in cpu limited scenarios Dane would be more than fine. I also doubt the gpu will be as slow, even in compitabity mode.
 
Hermii said:
I don’t think a78 is even capable of being as slow as a 1ghz a58, so in cpu limited scenarios Dane would be more than fine. I also doubt the gpu will be as slow, even in compitabity mode.
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A78 would even at same 1ghz as A57 offer 3 times more raw performance in Dhrystone, yes its synthetic, but gives idea.

At minimum 4 A78 CPU cores and 4 SM for GPU since Samsung 8nm is only twice as dense as TSMC 16nm used by Tegra X1+ "Mariko".
 
ITSMILNER said:
When talking about Dane patches, could they not implement some type ‘Boost Mode’ at system level to help increase performance? Then certain titles get proper updates to update graphical effects etc..?
Click to expand...
I can see Nintendo having an approach quite similar to how the PlayStation 5 and the Xbox Series X handles backwards compatibility for Nintendo Switch games, where most games running at dynamic resolutions and/or unlocked framerates are probably running very close to, if not at the locked, max resolution and/or max framerate, without any game specific patch required. And of course, developers can release "next-gen" patches for specific games for graphical improvements, framerate improvements, etc., if desired.
 
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ITSMILNER said:
Yeah this is what I was thinking, just a system level option that would still give games some benefits if they don’t receive specific Dane patches.
Click to expand...
NVIDIA Image Scaling could be implimented to try to push games up past their Resolution caps for all games.

NIS is driver level on PC so it could be applied for a 2x flat resolution increase with relatively good stability.

And that benefit could extend to even Dane exclusive or optimized games as it can take say 1440p up to 4K

And Dane should have more than enough power to push Switch games to DRS/FPS Caps and run NIS 2x at the same time
 
WAW_Greyhound said:
I have trouble understanding exactly what does that mean, simply few ROP's bundled together into a cluster nor I am good with accronyms. GPC? Refers to SM?
Click to expand...
GPCs =(Graphics Processing Clusters)
This GPU block diagram of the RTX 3080 shows how the GPC's are clustered to form the full layout, but you can see that it's structured to try and provide the least amount of bottlenecks as possible when scaling the GPU up or down in size.

The 2 banks of 8 blue dashes in each GPC represents the ROP's for each respective unit in Ampere's architecture.

NVIDIA-Ampere-GA104-GPU-Block-Diagram.png
 
ITSMILNER said:
Yeah this is what I was thinking, just a system level option that would still give games some benefits if they don’t receive specific Dane patches.
Click to expand...
It's not unlikely there'll be some sort of toggle to prioritize battery or performance for BC in portable mode, but even the battery mode in that scenario is likely to perform comfortably better than current Switch hardware.
 
Pokemaniac said:
It's not unlikely there'll be some sort of toggle to prioritize battery or performance for BC in portable mode, but even the battery mode in that scenario is likely to perform comfortably better than current Switch hardware.
Click to expand...
Honestly, if they could they likely could find a way to map the docked profile for OG games into both profiles for Dane they would and it would work XD

(Maybe have DLDSR in Dane to downsample games that peak over 720p in portable mode to make a better image?)
 
Alovon11 said:
Honestly, if they could they likely could find a way to map the docked profile for OG games into both profiles for Dane they would and it would work XD

(Maybe have DLDSR in Dane to downsample games that peak over 720p in portable mode to make a better image?)
Click to expand...
Trying to force games to run in docked mode while the system is in portable mode is just too problematic to attempt. Would almost certainly break things.
 
Pokemaniac said:
Trying to force games to run in docked mode while the system is in portable mode is just too problematic to attempt. Would almost certainly break things.
Click to expand...
Fair, although the system does seem to just be a "switch" setting system so maybe if Nintendo is willing to let users do what they want they can have Dane run the docked profile in portable mode if they want via a B/C setting for portable mode?|


That is more or less how most emulators for Switch work and I think ReverseNX?

So have it be a setting that defaults to switching games to portable mode settings when Dane is undocked, but can be switched to force Docked B/C no matter what at the cost of battery life.
 
NineTailSage said:
GPCs =(Graphics Processing Clusters)
This GPU block diagram of the RTX 3080 shows how the GPC's are clustered to form the full layout, but you can see that it's structured to try and provide the least amount of bottlenecks as possible when scaling the GPU up or down in size.

The 2 banks of 8 blue dashes in each GPC represents the ROP's for each respective unit in Ampere's architecture.

NVIDIA-Ampere-GA104-GPU-Block-Diagram.png
Click to expand...
This doesn't bode well at all if its 4 or 8SM. Lower than Tegra X1.
 
ACE+ said:
This is a thing though.
Click to expand...

Alovon11 said:
Fair, although the system does seem to just be a "switch" setting system so maybe if Nintendo is willing to let users do what they want they can have Dane run the docked profile in portable mode if they want via a B/C setting for portable mode?|


That is more or less how most emulators for Switch work and I think ReverseNX?

So have it be a setting that defaults to switching games to portable mode settings when Dane is undocked, but can be switched to force Docked B/C no matter what at the cost of battery life.
Click to expand...
This is one of those things where Homebrew can get away with things that official releases can't because the target audience is already tinkering and generally understands that they're leaving the bounds of what was intended. It's not a subject I've looked into, but I'd be very surprised if ReverseNX had 100% compatibility without game specific hacks.
 
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