Hailinel
Musou Mania!
I mean you want to draw a line between how Ocarina and WW were the fourth best-selling titles on their respective platforms--just like BotW--even though BotW lapped both of them combined in sales multiple times.
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Discussion Eiji Aonuma confirms BOTW/TOTK will be the template for Zelda going forward
- Thread starter Hero of Hyrule
- Start date
balgajo
Koopa
Nobody is trying to transpose. My point is, Twilight Princess has one of the worst ranking for a first Zelda game of a console. Even so in a system like switch it represents 15M sales. It seems unlikely that in a core focused system like Switch a traditional Zelda game would be outside of top 10.
NES - Zelda was 6th
SNES - Zelda was 8th
N64 - Zelda was 4th
GC - Zelda was 4th
Wii - Zelda was 13th
Wii U - Zelda was 9th (remake)
Switch - Zelda 4th
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balgajo
Koopa
Discussing and speculating is different than making a statistical analysis. If every time we want to make a point we need enough data for a statistical analysis I guarantee that we can't assert anything about any franchise sales. We can't even be sure that BOTW new elements were responsible for the huge audience increase.
Hailinel
Musou Mania!
You're ignoring that TP's sales were split between Wii and GameCube. Also that the Wii was ultimately marketed toward a different audience.
Even with the data you're referencing, you're using an incomplete picture. And it's a bit baffling to suggest we don't know if the elements introduced in BotW were responsible for its success when every bit of marketing and so much of its critical praise was laser-focused on those new elements.
I suppose I could also point to the sales of SSHD on the Switch, which is the antithesis of BotW structurally, and how it hasn't come anywhere close to selling BotW's numbers. It's at least a more direct comparison than trying to game theory my way into thinking 4th place in sales on the N64 and 4th place in sales on the Switch offers any actual correlation.
Switch isn't core focused, it's everyone focused. There's nothing to indicate that a more traditional Zelda can move 20M units of software.
The logic of "Zelda will end up in the top 10, therefore it will sell this much" is iffy too. It's the other way around-- it has to sell (checks notes) 15M to oust Ring Fit Adventure from the top 10 spot.
balgajo
Koopa
You are the one that introduced the statistical analysis. If we use that as a starting point stating that the new elements were responsible for the franchise growth with just one sample is inappropriate. Though I agree that it's the likely scenario. And the remake of game where even the original didn't sell well isn't representative of the sales potential of the franchise.
Zelda was always among Nintendo best selling franchises. I see no reason why it wouldn't be the same with Switch. Being among the best selling would put it near 20M.
I agree that Switch has both audiences. The point I wanted to make is that this time core focused games sells really well when compared to Wii.
I apologize but that reasoning is dubious. Again, it's the other way around. A traditional Zelda has to sell 15M units to enter the top ten games on Switch. A Zelda game isn't going to end up in the top ten just because it's Zelda. Especially on Switch, where Nintendo IPs have hit a new stratosphere when it comes to sales.
Yes it will sell better. But 15M better? That's way more doubtful.
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Switch is a hybrid... Your hypothetical Zelda game would have significantly more competition for top ten than any Nintendo home console in the past. There are five sets of Pokémon games on the system for example. There are two other mainline Zelda games! The software landscape is completely different. Trying to draw parallels between relative rankings is nonsensical. A franchise's sales don't just automatically scale one to one with hardware sales.
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balgajo
Koopa
The parallel is not about the ranking itself. I'm using the ranking to show that Zelda(BOTW, TOTK aside) always figured out among Nintendo best selling franchises.
When you consider portable you have:
GC/GBC - Zelda was 13th
GBA - Zelda was 11th
NDS - Zelda was 17th
3DS - Zelda was 13th
Again, even in handheld space Zelda figures out among the big franchises and with games done by a small team.
Keep in mind that that I didn't say Zelda would sell 20M on Switch. I said I wouldn't be surprised if that happened with a game like Oot and Tp on Switch.
While I understand that the sales number of a franchise doesn't automatically scale with the install base(like wii) we observe that for a lot of franchises the Switch factor has more to do with the success than how revolutionary the game is. Other than BOTW some more evolutionary games had the best iteration sales this gen, for example:
1,4 x over previous best for Mario Kart (though a bit unfair because wii was bundled and not considering wii u numbers)
3,2x over previous best for Animal Crossing
2x over previous best for Luigi's Mansion
2.3x over previous best for Smash
2x over previous best for 3d Mario
2.7x over previous best for Splatoon
2.5x over previous best for Xenoblade
2x over previous best Mario Party
2x over previous best Mario Maker
1.3x over previous best Fire Emblem (not sure how the gameplay compares though)
I think it's more likely that Zelda would also get one of those multipliers with an evolutionary sequel. Evolutionary I mean Oot, Tp route. SS went for a different thing and instead of presenting an expansive world they did the contrary. A traditional game with a 2x over TP, for example, would already put it near 18M.
Odyssey sold 10M more than Galaxy, previous best selling 3d one. Why a traditional sequel couldn't sell 6M more than TP and crack into switch top 10?
I'd have more trouble justifying that this isn't the likely scenario.
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Hailinel
Musou Mania!
I mean you keep saying you're not attempting statistical analysis, but again, you're using statistics to map out a scenario where a new OoT-style game sells 18 million copies because Switch bump.
balgajo
Koopa
Because it isn't. It's just an educated guess with a small number of samples. Using some evidence to start a discussion isn't a statistical analysis.
I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm saying that 15M is a high, high bar and the "Switch bump" can't be expected to get a traditional sequel to sell six million more copies. I'm also skeptical of using the 9M number for Twilight Princess anyway, since that's the combined total for the GC and Wii versions. I'd say the established fanbase for "traditional Zelda" going off TP would be closer to 7.5 to 8M.
And at the end of the day, what the hypothetical, new traditional Zelda actually is matters a lot. I don't think Zelda will sell 15M because it's Zelda. I don't think it will sell 15M because "Zelda has always been one of Nintendo's top selling franchises."
Mekanos
おっす！
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A traditional 3D Zelda that launched with the Switch, assuming it was high quality and well received, I could see selling over 10 million, close to 15 million. A series best, but still far from the heights the series has reached with the current formula.
Eventually the series would run into the same problems it did before where the linear games sell worse and worse but take longer and be costlier to make. An HD linear Zelda would still take 4-5 years of development easily, so there isn’t a lot of incentive to shift styles to shrink the audience by large amounts. It’s just kicking the can down the road to avoid the problem that the OOT style games were losing popularity with general audiences.
In a perfect world I’d love to have alternating styles done by two different teams, like Resident Evil’s current setup, but EPD doesn’t have the manpower for something like that and the returns on linear Zelda would be paltry in comparison. TOTK will easily clear 20 million units lifetime, which puts it far and above every non-BOTW Zelda.
Eventually the series would run into the same problems it did before where the linear games sell worse and worse but take longer and be costlier to make. An HD linear Zelda would still take 4-5 years of development easily, so there isn’t a lot of incentive to shift styles to shrink the audience by large amounts. It’s just kicking the can down the road to avoid the problem that the OOT style games were losing popularity with general audiences.
In a perfect world I’d love to have alternating styles done by two different teams, like Resident Evil’s current setup, but EPD doesn’t have the manpower for something like that and the returns on linear Zelda would be paltry in comparison. TOTK will easily clear 20 million units lifetime, which puts it far and above every non-BOTW Zelda.
balgajo
Koopa
I think it's fair to use TP GC+Wii because I don't think there isn't much double dip. Wii was launched first and GC 1 month later.
I agree with you that it matters. That's why I mentioning something more safe like Oot and TP(of course having great review as always). Few series are like Pokemon where it will sell a lot even if it's questionable as the last one.
Though I think a less open game as SS is too risky. Majora's Mask approach too.
Not related but MM is a interesting case where it took 1 year to be made and sold 50% of OOT. It seems a pretty profitable game.
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I suspect that Nintendo's first priority is to get mainline 3D Zelda out faster (like... every 4 years rather than 6), then to get 2D games out at a semi-regular pace. And once they've done that they might start thinking about "traditional" OoT-style Zeldas again. Gaps between new releases they will continue to fill with spinoffs like Hyrule Warriors, remakes and remasters primarily done by outside studios.
Listening to the new Kit & Krysta it sounds like the bigger barrier to more traditional 3D Zelda elements might be Aonuma himself not wanting them in these games anymore, which is something I suspected as well. Maybe once Fujibayashi inevitably takes over his producer duties and someone else hops into the director's chair there might be some changes but I somehow doubt it.
At this point it seems that people looking for that OoT feeling are more likely going to get it from something like Metroid Prime.
Listening to the new Kit & Krysta it sounds like the bigger barrier to more traditional 3D Zelda elements might be Aonuma himself not wanting them in these games anymore, which is something I suspected as well. Maybe once Fujibayashi inevitably takes over his producer duties and someone else hops into the director's chair there might be some changes but I somehow doubt it.
At this point it seems that people looking for that OoT feeling are more likely going to get it from something like Metroid Prime.
boodream
Paratroopa
Once you've re-re-released WW/TP and possibly Ocarina/Majora, there won't be any 3D Zelda left to re-re-release to fill the gaps in the calendar. However, if what we actually get first between two major titles are new 2D Zelda, then I'd be very happy.
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Then they'll just continue making spinoffs, I guess.
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So fun fact
The original Ocarina of Time came out in 1998, it's remake on the 3ds came out in 2011, 13 years later.
In 2024, it'll have been 13 years since the 3ds remake. Nintendo could absolutely do another remake of Ocarina of Time on the Switch successor.
The original Ocarina of Time came out in 1998, it's remake on the 3ds came out in 2011, 13 years later.
In 2024, it'll have been 13 years since the 3ds remake. Nintendo could absolutely do another remake of Ocarina of Time on the Switch successor.
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I've thought about this possibility as well, but in all honesty I don't know what needs to be added to Ocarina of Time 3DS today. It doesn't feel like it needs a rerelease right now, unless they would do it from the ground up, which I don't think is necessary at the moment either. The latest version holds up just fine still imho.
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I can absolutely see Nintendo doing a Final Fantasy 7 style remake for Ocarina of Time. Not necessarily a 3 part remake, but a remake that takes the original framework of OoT and completely revisions it.
Even if they don't go that route, an OoT remake with modern Switch 2 graphics would be a really nice system seller.
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Yeah, I can agree with that. A ground-up attempt at OoT with the hypothetical Switch 2 graphics would definitely be worth it. Somehow I have a hard time seeing Nintendo do that, though.
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No you’re old
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Actually, I take it back, Nintendo attempting a remake of Ocarina of Time and accidentally making a new game is the best chance people have to get a new OoT-style game.
Stilt Village
GBA
The ALBW of OoT would go so hard. Hyrule Field with stuff actually in it. A completely new ravaged Hyrule ruled by Ganondorf 7 years in the future. The Water Temple 2. Some poor bastard having to remake the OoT soundtrack.
Lucifer
Like Like
It being stuck on a low res handheld is enough of a reason honestly.
It doesn't need other fluff besides a visual upgrade.
Mekanos
おっす！
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I’ve talked about this before but I still don’t understand the value proposition of a ground-up Ocarina remake
That’s a huge project that would take 4+ years, minimum. It would be in a style that isn’t attractive to the new fans brought in by BOTW. They already have a 3DS version they can remaster and sell with less cost on Nintendo’s end, and it’s a game already available on multiple Nintendo consoles so there isn’t really a big untapped market for it.
I don’t see it happening, really.
That’s a huge project that would take 4+ years, minimum. It would be in a style that isn’t attractive to the new fans brought in by BOTW. They already have a 3DS version they can remaster and sell with less cost on Nintendo’s end, and it’s a game already available on multiple Nintendo consoles so there isn’t really a big untapped market for it.
I don’t see it happening, really.
OOT (and MM) needs new visuals for sure if it's brought to Switch, and Nintendo has no excuse to not do so otherwise considering the treatment Metroid Prime got. But otherwise outside of maybe orchestrating the score I really don't see the need for more than that, OOT's a well designed game, the core's sound, it's just the presentation that's dated.
Old Sorta Fan
Contra superfan
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Didn’t they try that with Skyward Sword HD? It was a new game for most of the Switch userbase. It sold 4 million, better than on Wii but a far, far gap from Breath of the Wild or Tears of the Kingdom.
I wouldn’t say that Majora’s Mask or Skyward Sword took more risk at all.
Majora’s Mask was the result of Miyamoto’s challenge to Aonuma to make a 3D Zelda game in one year. Hence why it reuses assets and gameplay mechanics, has a small map, and pads play time through the time rewind mechanic. Mr. Miyamoto was unhappy with how long it took at make Ocarina of Time and was looking for someone to do the impossible task of taking a year to make a 3D Zelda game that sold as well as the original Legend of Zelda. In a sense, Majora’s Mask was an experiment in cost containment and project management.
Skyward Sword was done to try to appeal to Japanese players. Nintendo incorrectly hypothesized that Twilight Princess didn’t sell well in Japan because it was open ended and the art style was too western oriented. They thought at the time that Japanese players wanted hand holding, linearity, smaller maps, a cuter Zelda, and a high school anime storyline. In hindsight they were wrong as Japanese players wanted a fully open world just like western players. Skyward Sword was very conservative in many ways in that it went backwards with respect to trying to distill the Ocarina of Time formula to smaller areas.
It didn’t help that Mr. Miyamoto again put time constraints on the Skyward Sword project, forcing the team to reuse the three maps over and over.
MSnap
Kremling
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They’re both already on Switch though
Mekanos
おっす！
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I think Skyward Sword was also hampered by the fact that it already sold on a console with a huge install base (even if it was towards the end of its life). There just wasn't a lot of room for growth (especially as a full price retail game) and it was already a somewhat polarizing title (though I imagine SSHD's controls are a lot more approachable, haven't played it yet).
I've said this before but you can really feel the whole run of WW/TP/SS the Zelda team trying to figure out how to tweak and expand the OOT formula but never really quite knowing how to follow up on its success. TP was also a huge success obviously but also the one most blatantly attempting to iterate on OOT and was helped as a Wii launch title. There doesn't seem to be much willpower by Aonuma and co. to return to that formula either as he's talked a lot about how stressful that era of Zelda was in terms of development. I'm sure they will continue to include elements from the older games going forward though as TOTK did. (Hopefully including swimming underwater!)
I've said this before but you can really feel the whole run of WW/TP/SS the Zelda team trying to figure out how to tweak and expand the OOT formula but never really quite knowing how to follow up on its success. TP was also a huge success obviously but also the one most blatantly attempting to iterate on OOT and was helped as a Wii launch title. There doesn't seem to be much willpower by Aonuma and co. to return to that formula either as he's talked a lot about how stressful that era of Zelda was in terms of development. I'm sure they will continue to include elements from the older games going forward though as TOTK did. (Hopefully including swimming underwater!)
Do you have a source for this? Not saying I disbelieve you but it sounds interesting.
boodream
Paratroopa
I agree. You've already got it on NSO. An HD smoothing would bring too little, a true remake would take an insane amount of time.
Mer.Saloon
Chain Chomp
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Majora stressed out the devs immensely and in some ways hampered Wind Waker's development because it was a ground up Zelda game. It was very risky, and future fame aside I don't know how worth it it was to not just do URA Zelda and then move on.
Old Sorta Fan
Contra superfan
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A poster on InstallBase compiled this exhaustive development history of the games and sourced them. Here is the link: https://zelda.fandom.com/wiki/Development_of_The_Legend_of_Zelda
Old Sorta Fan
Contra superfan
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That is a good point. It was definitely risky from a project pipeline perspective
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I do wonder how expensive Skyward Sword was to make compared to Twilight Princess, ignoring the motion control stuff. In some regards it feels like it had a higher budget like the orchestral soundtrack but then there's also stuff like the heavily reused locations that feel like blatant cost-cutting measures.
Mekanos
おっす！
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MM is one of my all time favorite games (literally my favorite Zelda until TOTK) so I wouldn’t change it for the world, but it definitely hindered WW’s development.
That’s the business though, you learn from your mistakes and evolve. We wouldn’t have BOTW/TOTK without Nintendo learning from what was working and what wasn’t.
Yeah I liked SS but I could tell even back in the day something really went topside with development with all the reused locations. I groaned when towards the end of the game I had to do a light collecting fetch quest in the areas lol
balgajo
Koopa
It's already impressive that the game sold more than the original release. Remaster doesn't have the same appeal as a new title nor even the same marketing budget. A 10 years old game with a fullprice because of a HD subtitle is off-puting to a lot of people. It also doesn't get the same buzz as people already knows everything about the game.
I consider Majora's Mask risky because of it's mechanics. Time management puts a lot of people off just by seeing a clock(that was the discourse of oot fans at school btw and the reason I played the game only 4 years later). Also focusing the narrative on NPCs routines and sidequests while the main story was one of the reasons of it's predecessor success. Of course it's a cheap experiment but it has potential to damage the brand.
SS was Nintendo taking risk again. You have a very successful predecessor and instead of building a game taking in consideration what people like about Twilight Princess they changed everything and decide that the focus is 1:1 controls, a segmented overworld and less focus on exploration.
SS invested high on the 1:1 controls. I remember Iwata Asks mentioning they took a huge shift in direction of development after the Wii Motion Plus launch(2009) to include the sword play and other motion controls.
The last risk is that both of them required a peripheral that weren't that hot, limiting potential buyers.
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Yeah, same. I think the concept works in principle but if you have to visit the same small areas several times with minimal changes, mandatory backtracking and repetitive gameplay it starts to wear you down. Towards the end you just want to get to the dungeons as quickly as possible. Eldin especially was brutal and it felt like a lot of it was just to stretch the playtime. You could probably cut a good 20-30% from Skyward Sword and it'd be a much tighter (and better) game in the end. And I'm kinda wondering how feasible a modern game like that would be.
Vampfox
Rattata
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Keep telling yourself that.
takriel
Wandering the Hylian Wilds
It has some bangers, but I don't think it has consistently standout music. That's fine, though, the music in BotW and TotK was designed with a different approach and goal in mind.
JazzPotatoes
Koopa
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FWIW, I was documenting my playthrough of SS HD on Famiboards, and ended up bailing on the game towards the end. I'd reached a point where it felt like things were building to the finale... and then was told I had to do more backtracking and fetch questing. As much as I had enjoyed the game up until then, that killed my motivation stone dead. Still, it had some of the absolute best level design in the Zelda series.
I think if Nintendo did ever want to revisit Ocarina or Majora, a third instalment to complete the Hero Of Time story would make a lot more sense. There's a lot of unresolved story from those two games, and a new instalment teasing people with what happened next would (I think) be a lot more appealing than just Ocarina or MM but in HD this time.
I think if Nintendo did ever want to revisit Ocarina or Majora, a third instalment to complete the Hero Of Time story would make a lot more sense. There's a lot of unresolved story from those two games, and a new instalment teasing people with what happened next would (I think) be a lot more appealing than just Ocarina or MM but in HD this time.
Hailinel
Musou Mania!
Because it's just a much more restrictive overworld but still the same structure as OoT.
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Sad day for people who don't like good games
Vampfox
Rattata
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I don't really see the need for a third Hero of Time Zelda game. I'd rather get a Twilight Princess sequel.
balgajo
Koopa
What are the similarities that you see that started with Oot?
I was thinking about it and I don't see much in common.
The 2 cour story thing is from ALTTP.
The lock and key dungeon design is from ALTTP.
Dungeon having an item is from OG Zelda.
Using dungeon items to progress is from OG Zelda.
Oot introduced the errands and story heavy segments before dungeons but BOTW and TOTK does the same.
3d controls feel more like Oot but BOTW and Totk have a lot of Oot heritage.
Oot let you visit most of the world after you leave the forest and SS is more restrictive.
The only game that I see with the same linearity is the initial segment of TP. But this wasn't from Oot.
SS introduced new things like the wall jump, stamina and durability.
Overworld wasn't a traversal space anymore. It felt like playground with lot of puzzles.
Removed day and night cycle.
They went for the overworld is a puzzle solving place that wasn't a thing on other Zelda games.
If someone said that SS feel more like the Zelda franchise as whole than BOTW and Totk I'd agree. But I don't that much in common to Oot formula.
Maybe there's something that I'm forgetting but I think it was a game that tried to change things for Zelda. Even though I don't like most of changes it brought.
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I mean there’s nothing wrong with that. There’s a lot of freedom in that. Tho, You know, I’m kind of curious if the next Zelda decides to not revamp on the gameplay side but just toy with a new environment and story as it’s focus on the already refined gameplay and format from ToTK. Could have a lower turnaround. Especially if they choose to have a new local all together, there’s lots of ways to mess with that. They already toyed with more isolated biomes with limited connections too so a sea center or something with more fixed transitional areas is possible
Hailinel
Musou Mania!
The overall progression structure in Skyward Sword is no different from what it was in Twilight Princess, Wind Waker, or Ocarina of Time. The necessity of flight doesn't disguise that, especially with how small the explorable regions are and how often you revisit them.
This got bumped several times so might as well clarify some things
I don’t think forum posts are all that irrelevant when you consider stuff like NOA skipping on the Tingle games due to stupid memes, or how Paper Mario Sticker Star was a reaction to Club Nintendo surveys. That’s why I always get triggered when people speculate about the most predictable worst case scenario outcomes
You misunderstood my point about games not being surprising anymore, it’s not even about TOTK (tbh it’s easier for that game to surprise people when basically everything that makes it differ from BOTW was treated as a spoiler and not really shown in trailers). I’m not even talking about the Internet and leaks killing mysteries in games either. Games are just very overengineered nowadays, for lack of a better term. You can very easily dissect the gameplay loop of a modern game, this includes open world games in general, it’s just way more predictable to know what to expect. One of the many ways older games can be better is how they weren’t as clean-cut in terms of structure or genres. That’s a whole other topic that deserves its own essay but basically the point here is that a lot of modern, critically acclaimed games understand this part of game design, that’s how they managed to be successful and have fans that are like “just play it, go blind, it’s hard to explain what makes it good”. Games like I dunno, Nier Automata come into mind, that’s a good precedent for games and that’s what I mean when I talk about games surprising you.
Open world games, TOTK included, just don’t really have this quality to them because there is so much repetition that you already know what to expect. Sky Islands are neat, they are basically outdoor dungeons, but how many of them are just another crystal Shrine puzzle. The Shrines have good puzzles but even then, it’s the same aesthetic, same template at times, a lot of them are basically the puzzle equivalent of Mario boss fight, you get a concept, you do a puzzle three times with a chest somewhere in between. You get the idea. I just don’t think that modern open world Zelda that sells over 20 million and the qualities of older Zelda are mutually exclusive. I enjoy TOTK’s dungeons, I think so far they are actually above average compared to other dungeons in the series (wouldn’t say the same about Divine Beasts) but it’s still sad how despite them getting some hype in the marketing, they are still isolated to the main story and they can still feel like a repurposed version of existing content (caves, sky islands, Divine Beasts). You need to follow the main quest and meet your partner to access them… They feel more like “set pieces” rather than dungeons, I thought an appeal of non linear Zelda would be to actually stumble upon dungeons outside of the main quest. Open world Zelda has you collect a bunch of resources, you spent a lot more time in menus compared to any other Zelda. This is just grindy, what if the next Zelda actually gave you new permanent abilities that don’t have you spend as much time in menus, that has always been a huge advantage that Zelda had. This doesn’t conflict with having the option of “DIY” the solution to a puzzle. This could introduce hard locks? I don’t think it’s a problem either, especially considering both games force you to get all your abilities in the tutorial before really starting the game, TOTK even restricts you further as you’re basically forced to follow the main quest for a while after finishing the tutorial. It’s just not a good precedent to settle on “expanding upon TOTK” because that’s just making another bigger game. You already see how TOTK has basically overridden BOTW in gaming discussion, that’s not ideal. Zelda is much more than that, it has always managed to make entries that stand out from each other. With post-Wii hardware they can finally expand upon various concepts from past games, a theorical “traditional HD 3D Zelda” wouldn’t have stuff like the “padding” in TP or SS in the first place. Having another huge open world game with bite-sized challenges and no permanent upgrades would just be tired at this point, like the most memorable parts in TOTK clearly lean on what older 3D Zelda offers but it just doesn’t commit to it
The suggestion of an OOT remake is sad as hell, this won’t happen since Nintendo actually knows which of their games stood the test of time. They re-released Mario 64 with no changes. They may be old but they are still perfectly playable today, and that’s fine. It’s just not comparable to the other hits of that gen getting full remakes, because in those cases you have games with fixed camera angles getting remade with modern controls so that their audience that have no interest in retro games can get what the fuss is about. OOT just doesn’t need a remake, there’s a million directions the series can go, ideas to expand before settling on “OOT remake with BOTW engine”
I know it’s impossible to say this without sounding like a snob but I mean, it’s to support the fact that my opinion is educated. It’s not exactly an appeal to authority because I’m not one. Now, a fallacy that has been throughout the last few posts is the appeal to majority, everyone bringing up BOTW sales numbers to disregard any criticism of design issues
Bringing up sales numbers is the same logic that execs have when they just want more GAAS games or whatever makes the most money. Nintendo has the most passionate fans in the industry because they are one of the few non-indie companies that respect videogames as an art form. If they were like EA or Activision or whatever, they wouldn’t even bother with most of their series and would settle on making bullshit like Pokemon MMO, Animal Crossing NFTs and Fortnite Mario. Zelda is one of the most influential series out there, I think there can be a discussion about its design decisions without completely disregarding the majority of the series.
I don’t think forum posts are all that irrelevant when you consider stuff like NOA skipping on the Tingle games due to stupid memes, or how Paper Mario Sticker Star was a reaction to Club Nintendo surveys. That’s why I always get triggered when people speculate about the most predictable worst case scenario outcomes
You misunderstood my point about games not being surprising anymore, it’s not even about TOTK (tbh it’s easier for that game to surprise people when basically everything that makes it differ from BOTW was treated as a spoiler and not really shown in trailers). I’m not even talking about the Internet and leaks killing mysteries in games either. Games are just very overengineered nowadays, for lack of a better term. You can very easily dissect the gameplay loop of a modern game, this includes open world games in general, it’s just way more predictable to know what to expect. One of the many ways older games can be better is how they weren’t as clean-cut in terms of structure or genres. That’s a whole other topic that deserves its own essay but basically the point here is that a lot of modern, critically acclaimed games understand this part of game design, that’s how they managed to be successful and have fans that are like “just play it, go blind, it’s hard to explain what makes it good”. Games like I dunno, Nier Automata come into mind, that’s a good precedent for games and that’s what I mean when I talk about games surprising you.
Open world games, TOTK included, just don’t really have this quality to them because there is so much repetition that you already know what to expect. Sky Islands are neat, they are basically outdoor dungeons, but how many of them are just another crystal Shrine puzzle. The Shrines have good puzzles but even then, it’s the same aesthetic, same template at times, a lot of them are basically the puzzle equivalent of Mario boss fight, you get a concept, you do a puzzle three times with a chest somewhere in between. You get the idea. I just don’t think that modern open world Zelda that sells over 20 million and the qualities of older Zelda are mutually exclusive. I enjoy TOTK’s dungeons, I think so far they are actually above average compared to other dungeons in the series (wouldn’t say the same about Divine Beasts) but it’s still sad how despite them getting some hype in the marketing, they are still isolated to the main story and they can still feel like a repurposed version of existing content (caves, sky islands, Divine Beasts). You need to follow the main quest and meet your partner to access them… They feel more like “set pieces” rather than dungeons, I thought an appeal of non linear Zelda would be to actually stumble upon dungeons outside of the main quest. Open world Zelda has you collect a bunch of resources, you spent a lot more time in menus compared to any other Zelda. This is just grindy, what if the next Zelda actually gave you new permanent abilities that don’t have you spend as much time in menus, that has always been a huge advantage that Zelda had. This doesn’t conflict with having the option of “DIY” the solution to a puzzle. This could introduce hard locks? I don’t think it’s a problem either, especially considering both games force you to get all your abilities in the tutorial before really starting the game, TOTK even restricts you further as you’re basically forced to follow the main quest for a while after finishing the tutorial. It’s just not a good precedent to settle on “expanding upon TOTK” because that’s just making another bigger game. You already see how TOTK has basically overridden BOTW in gaming discussion, that’s not ideal. Zelda is much more than that, it has always managed to make entries that stand out from each other. With post-Wii hardware they can finally expand upon various concepts from past games, a theorical “traditional HD 3D Zelda” wouldn’t have stuff like the “padding” in TP or SS in the first place. Having another huge open world game with bite-sized challenges and no permanent upgrades would just be tired at this point, like the most memorable parts in TOTK clearly lean on what older 3D Zelda offers but it just doesn’t commit to it
The suggestion of an OOT remake is sad as hell, this won’t happen since Nintendo actually knows which of their games stood the test of time. They re-released Mario 64 with no changes. They may be old but they are still perfectly playable today, and that’s fine. It’s just not comparable to the other hits of that gen getting full remakes, because in those cases you have games with fixed camera angles getting remade with modern controls so that their audience that have no interest in retro games can get what the fuss is about. OOT just doesn’t need a remake, there’s a million directions the series can go, ideas to expand before settling on “OOT remake with BOTW engine”
