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Discussion Eiji Aonuma confirms BOTW/TOTK will be the template for Zelda going forward

The joy of exploration. You're arguing for extrinsic rewards while most people who don't follow the critical path are after intrinsic rewards.
As someone who only did the critical path with some extras in BOTW, I am finding exploration to be its own reward in TOTK. I love finding caves and just digging through them, or stumbling upon an enemy camp and killing monsters. The addition of skydiving (avatar quote) just adds so, so, so much to the sense of exploration. I'm only just now starting my second story quest... after 40+ hours.
As the guy that doesn’t look at Wind Waker favorably as much as everyone else I hope the next Zelda game isn’t similar to it….. lol
Hey you and me both. I really do not want to spend half the game in a boat lol.
 
As someone who only did the critical path with some extras in BOTW, I am finding exploration to be its own reward in TOTK. I love finding caves and just digging through them, or stumbling upon an enemy camp and killing monsters. The addition of skydiving (avatar quote) just adds so, so, so much to the sense of exploration. I'm only just now starting my second story quest... after 40+ hours.

Hey you and me both. I really do not want to spend half the game in a boat lol.
Yea like don’t get me wrong I think Wind Waker is a good game, but of all the Zelda games I would choose it’s one of the last one I want to be used as a template haha.
 
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As someone who only did the critical path with some extras in BOTW, I am finding exploration to be its own reward in TOTK. I love finding caves and just digging through them, or stumbling upon an enemy camp and killing monsters. The addition of skydiving (avatar quote) just adds so, so, so much to the sense of exploration. I'm only just now starting my second story quest... after 40+ hours.

Yeah, that sort of thing was really rewarding in BOTW for me too. I didn't necessarily need "a thing" because I climbed up a mountain I liked the look of, mainly because my ambition and goal was "get up top of thing and have a look at view". In fact, I can still see me enjoying the loop of BOTW post-TOTK, with the easy going pulse of navigation of run/Revali/run/Revali. TOTK is entirely more technical.

However, the exploration in TOTK. Haha ok man. Whatever preconception I had that I would simply just slip into Hyrule and belt around like veteran has been quickly expelled. I'm back to being tentative, overwhelmed, and consistently faced with "holy crap look at what I'm doing, look at where I am!" moments. This game is consistently delivering "things" at the end of my exploration, or simply giving me exploration aims. Blows me away.
 
I feel like it’s become pretty obvious that the Zelda team sees the BotW/TotK "open air" template as more creatively rewarding and I think the next one will go even further in refining and modifying what they have built over the last decade plus. Aside from that, none of the elements that both of these games have introduced really seem like they’re super sacred. The "BotW-isms" as well as the more "traditional" Zelda elements will be switched in and out as they see fit, it’s up to anyone to decide whether that’s good enough for them.
 
They should stick with this template, hasn't close to hit it's limits yet with what the team can do with it, but the next game absolutely needs a new world and a more significantly overhauled/fresh roster of enemies and characters. TotK feels quite fresh despite being set in the same world but I don't think any dev could make it work 3 times in a row without it getting stale.
 
It would be great to have an open world Wind Waker or Phantom Hourglass like game, possibly built for their next console. A huge open sea, with a customizable ship, fishing, treasure maps, ghost ships and underwater exploration.

Or just release a Wind Waker, Phantom Hourglass & Spirit Tracks remaster trilogy, I'll take it~
 
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As long as we get a new 2D Zelda, considering that we have what 6-7 years between this and the next main Zelda?

Also I disagree with people who think that, if get other remakes of games like Ocarina and Majora, they are gonna go the botw route, when instead they will probably 1:1 remake like the 3DS ones
 
The joy of exploration. You're arguing for extrinsic rewards while most people who don't follow the critical path are after intrinsic rewards.


You are correct, Tears of the Kingdom has some top-tier world design.
This argument just doesn’t work, it’s honestly pretty dishonest to frame dungeons and unique items as some kind of extrinsic reward. The whole point is that open air Zelda is simply too sparse in terms of meaningful content. When you have like 4 story dungeons and 8 towns but over 100 Shrines, it’s simply not balanced. Discovering something unique, that stands out from other places is what drives exploration in the first place. It doesn’t help when Shrines share the same theme and there’s so many of the same type of content

The whole “extrinsic vs intrinsic” comment is just not applicable in this case. “The gameplay is the reward” that sounds cool on paper but let’s look at when that argument actually applies. It’s usually for games that have skill or mastery as their main appeal. Multiplayer games, competitive games don’t give you a whole lot of extrinsic rewards, whole point is to get better at the game, that comes from you. Same thing with arcade games, they are single player but the point is to master them. When roguelikes are too heavy on the grind they are criticized for focusing too much on extrinsic rewards when you should be appealed to go on one more run because the gameplay is fun in the first place.

So Zelda has good gameplay, some people seem to enjoy the moment to moment so much that they don’t mind things like not having enough dungeons. Here’s the thing though, Zelda is also an adventure game, it’s more than just a playground. It needs more parts that make the world feel alive, it needs more context. It needs more persistent interaction with the world. Again I don’t want to dive into semantics or how other Zeldas were designed, the point is just that dungeons like the Forest Temple, towns like Clock Town, all of these are some of the most evocative levels in games, engaging them is part of the core gameplay. When people had the idea of non-linear Zelda, they expected to stumble upon them in an open world. Open air Zelda simply doesn’t have enough of that. Shrines from some ancient civilisation that share the same theme and a story mostly told through flashbacks simply doesn’t do it for some. It basically undermines the whole “joy of exploration” by making the game feel artificial. That’s it
 
I assume the next game is going to take place in another land/world. But regarding the artstyle I feel divided. On one hand, I want the Zelda series to keep changing and evolving as always, but on the other hand, the BotW/TotK arstyle is SO good and it could be outstanding in next-gen hardware. Whatever they decide, I trust the team more than ever.
 
I assume the next game is going to take place in another land/world. But regarding the artstyle I feel divided. On one hand, I want the Zelda series to keep changing and evolving as always, but on the other hand, the BotW/TotK arstyle is SO good and it could be outstanding in next-gen hardware. Whatever they decide, I trust the team more than ever.
I agree, they don't need to completely change things up graphically. This art style with a lot more power behind it, would be awesome.
 
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This argument just doesn’t work, it’s honestly pretty dishonest to frame dungeons and unique items as some kind of extrinsic reward. The whole point is that open air Zelda is simply too sparse in terms of meaningful content. When you have like 4 story dungeons and 8 towns but over 100 Shrines, it’s simply not balanced. Discovering something unique, that stands out from other places is what drives exploration in the first place. It doesn’t help when Shrines share the same theme and there’s so many of the same type of content

The whole “extrinsic vs intrinsic” comment is just not applicable in this case. “The gameplay is the reward” that sounds cool on paper but let’s look at when that argument actually applies. It’s usually for games that have skill or mastery as their main appeal. Multiplayer games, competitive games don’t give you a whole lot of extrinsic rewards, whole point is to get better at the game, that comes from you. Same thing with arcade games, they are single player but the point is to master them. When roguelikes are too heavy on the grind they are criticized for focusing too much on extrinsic rewards when you should be appealed to go on one more run because the gameplay is fun in the first place.

So Zelda has good gameplay, some people seem to enjoy the moment to moment so much that they don’t mind things like not having enough dungeons. Here’s the thing though, Zelda is also an adventure game, it’s more than just a playground. It needs more parts that make the world feel alive, it needs more context. It needs more persistent interaction with the world. Again I don’t want to dive into semantics or how other Zeldas were designed, the point is just that dungeons like the Forest Temple, towns like Clock Town, all of these are some of the most evocative levels in games, engaging them is part of the core gameplay. When people had the idea of non-linear Zelda, they expected to stumble upon them in an open world. Open air Zelda simply doesn’t have enough of that. Shrines from some ancient civilisation that share the same theme and a story mostly told through flashbacks simply doesn’t do it for some. It basically undermines the whole “joy of exploration” by making the game feel artificial. That’s it
I feel like this was disengenious for BotW but especially for TotK. There’s a ton of story and rewards to be found in this game, including permanent ones. Every town has at least one major side quest connected to it and many incorporate the main quest into it.
 
This argument just doesn’t work, it’s honestly pretty dishonest to frame dungeons and unique items as some kind of extrinsic reward.
their argument is that the joy of discovery is the intrinsic reward of exploring the the open world, and these games are specifically designed around making that experience feel rewarding regardless of what the extrinsic (shrines/seeds/weapons/whatever) rewards are. personally I think they should lean hard into the 'getting there is its own reward' thing and reward the player less, it makes those moments feel more meaningful
 
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open air Zelda is simply too sparse in terms of meaningful content
Disagreed. Me following a main story beat is meaningful content. Being able to go on a peaceful hike through the woods is meaningful content. Being able to build a ramshackle rocket-boosted vehicle is meaningful content.

Discovering something unique, that stands out from other places is what drives exploration in the first place
Good thing there’s plenty of unique things to discover in TotK.

there’s so many of the same type of content
It’s honestly pretty dishonest to frame the content as same-y. The puzzles and challenges for the shrines are markedly different, much more so than BotW.

The whole “extrinsic vs intrinsic” comment is just not applicable in this case. “The gameplay is the reward” that sounds cool on paper but let’s look at when that argument actually applies. It’s usually for games that have skill or mastery as their main appeal
I’m not sure why you think you’re the authority on what people enjoy about games. Farming sims, city builders, visual novels, there’s plenty of games where the point is enjoying the gameplay without necessarily mastering the skills.

I enjoy the exploration in Tears of the Kingdom. It is a reward, for me.

Zelda is also an adventure game, it’s more than just a playground. It needs more parts that make the world feel alive, it needs more context
The Hyrule of Tears of the Kingdom arguably feels the most alive out of all the Zeldas. Certainly out of all the 3D Zeldas. Don’t want to spoil too much about TotK here, but let’s just say the NPCs are proactive, the animals and creatures are all doing their own thing, etc.

It needs more persistent interaction with the world
… how is this less applicable to TotK than literally every other Zelda? The world is interact-able to an incredible degree.

all of these are some of the most evocative levels in games, engaging them is part of the core gameplay
Same as engaging with the open world is TotK’s core gameplay. (Also disagreed that those are “evocative”. Granted I have not played Majora’s Mask)

It basically undermines the whole “joy of exploration” by making the game feel artificial
Sounds to me that you just want a denser game.
 
This argument just doesn’t work, it’s honestly pretty dishonest to frame dungeons and unique items as some kind of extrinsic reward. The whole point is that open air Zelda is simply too sparse in terms of meaningful content. When you have like 4 story dungeons and 8 towns but over 100 Shrines, it’s simply not balanced. Discovering something unique, that stands out from other places is what drives exploration in the first place. It doesn’t help when Shrines share the same theme and there’s so many of the same type of content
What exactly is “meaningful content”? Dungeons and story are not the only meaningful content in any Zelda game, especially this one. Me building a spaceship to see how far I can fly is meaningful content. Me trying to access as many lightroots as I can in the depths is meaningful content. Me spotting a huge boss in the distance and running to go fight it is meaningful content.

There’s plenty of unique things to interact with the world even if you for some reason hate shrines. Which themselves are also meaningful content because they encourage exploration to find them and creativity to solve them.

I don’t know, I think framing it as “anything that isn’t tied to story progression is just a massive grind and a waste of time” is completely missing the point of the game.
 
I don't have much to add to this discussion since I'm not very far in TotK, but I did have a laugh at the "Call From the Depths" quest line which has you doing this pretty cool multi-hour quest, but the end result is getting a heart piece lol. I mean it was somewhat better than that, given that you also get a unique shop, but boy based on the whole build up there I was expecting something more at the end. Probably a part where Elden Ring succeeds a bit more because part of the quest/exploration rewards are often awesome boss fights to test your skills. At the moment I've only had that happen once in TotK.
 
I don't have much to add to this discussion since I'm not very far in TotK, but I did have a laugh at the "Call From the Depths" quest line which has you doing this pretty cool multi-hour quest, but the end result is getting a heart piece lol. I mean it was somewhat better than that, given that you also get a unique shop, but boy based on the whole build up there I was expecting something more at the end. Probably a part where Elden Ring succeeds a bit more because part of the quest/exploration rewards are often awesome boss fights to test your skills. At the moment I've only had that happen once in TotK.
That's the beauty of this game though, I stumbled on the call from the depths quest area without having the quest, so once I got the quest, I had already made that area much easier to travel for myself so it took me like 15 mins.
 
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I don't have much to add to this discussion since I'm not very far in TotK, but I did have a laugh at the "Call From the Depths" quest line which has you doing this pretty cool multi-hour quest, but the end result is getting a heart piece lol. I mean it was somewhat better than that, given that you also get a unique shop, but boy based on the whole build up there I was expecting something more at the end. Probably a part where Elden Ring succeeds a bit more because part of the quest/exploration rewards are often awesome boss fights to test your skills. At the moment I've only had that happen once in TotK.
As someone that has problems with Lynels in BOTW and hasn’t yet beat one of those hellish hands and didn’t tried to approach a Glirock yet in TOTK no, I don’t want even harder Enemies as a reward for exploring lol I mean it’d be pretty cool to get an unexpected boss in the Depths but not at the level of Elden Ring difficulty :p
 
I hope the next one doesn't take that long. Legitimately don't understand how TOTK took 6+ years to make. For a same-engine sequel with heavy asset reuse it doesn't make sense, even with COVID it should have taken 4 years tops.

For perspective, SS->BOTW was only 5 years and 4 months, and they undoubtedly sat on the game for awhile for the Switch launch. TOTK somehow took longer despite being an iterative sequel.
You have no idea what you're talking about. You should probably be less confident when you say stuff like that
 
I hope the next one doesn't take that long. Legitimately don't understand how TOTK took 6+ years to make. For a same-engine sequel with heavy asset reuse it doesn't make sense, even with COVID it should have taken 4 years tops.

For perspective, SS->BOTW was only 5 years and 4 months, and they undoubtedly sat on the game for awhile for the Switch launch. TOTK somehow took longer despite being an iterative sequel.
You can‘t adapt 1:1 how long something takes to develop to the actual quality of the game. I often feel like people think that game development was only coding. Though what if for example the sky tutorial island needed to go through several iterations because it wasn‘t good enough from a level design perspective? Maybe the only thing they did between 2017 and early 2018 was testing out new mechanics? Or they just run into some technical problems and needed to adapt their engine or something? Or they simply couldn‘t decide on the character design of the Zonai?

I mean in the end it‘s good that they were able to take all the time they need and release when they think they are ready.
 
I mean, it was an interview promoting Twilight Princess HD, so I'm not really surprised he said "And if you like this game, well the next Zelda game coming out is just like it!" Not a very compelling argument without any explanation of what that connection supposedly is.

What do you think the connection is? What does TP do that BotW really picks up on? Not a rhetorical question. I know there's some talk about the topography of the map being similarly up and down, but beyond that I'm not sure what Aonuma might be referring to.

Yeah, while I think that's a cool development note (map reuse), the quote is biased by being plucked from an interview literally marketing TP: HD. Similar quotes can be plucked from WWHD and SSHD's marketing, which all utilize the same "please look forward to the next title, and relive the series' history in X". Each game innovated somewhere that BOTW carries forward - TP in world design, WW in open nature and art style (which similarly was used during development), SS in mechanics...

I think the most clear representation of why I view LoZ -> WW -> BoTW as a clear development on one another is the original introduction video from E3 2014 where Aounuma literally references both of those game to introduce BoTW. This is divorced from any need to market another title, and was our true first look at Botw.

Right, so I've finally got a moment to make the detailed replies I wanted to these, discussing the overworlds. And now, I'm going to start it with a controversial statement.

The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker (and it's map) is just as linear as The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess.

Alright, alright, put down the pitchforks.

What do I mean by that? Let me answer that with another question: At what point exactly in the Wind Waker do you think it lets you actually explore the overworld?

Obviously it's not the beginning when you're on outset island, and then moved via cutscene to the first dungeon, which concludes with another cutscene throwing you to the next island, Windfall.

Here you get a sail, but the wind only blows east, so you can only go one direction, to Dragon Roost.

When you get there, the king of red lions hands you the Wind waker, but won't let you go anywhere until you complete Dragon Roost islands dungeon and get the pearl. Surely then, with the ability to control the wind, you can go anywhere?

Nope. If you try and deviate at all from the path either back to Windfall from dragon roost (directly west) or going anywhere but directly south, towards the Forest haven, the King of red lions immediately stops you and tells you not to go anywhere but where he told you. This continues until the forest haven is cleared.

This means you need to have gotten through 3 of the games 7 dungeons before you can actually visit anywhere on the map.

The problem I have with this is, if you look at the list of places you've been forced to visit before actually opening the map, it contains every single major point of interest on the map.

The natural question then is, "Why did they do this?". The answer? Well, first I want to point out that the previous two games happily let the player wander over huge chunks of the map practically immediately, even before the first dungeon in the case of MM, which has the best overworld prior to BOTW, but that's a unimportant deviation from this discussion. But I mention this just to make it clear that, going in to WW, they didn't think there was a major objection to exploration of the world even if it meant you were deviating from the main questline, so, again why?

The answer is a solution to a problem caused by the ocean. You cannot naturally guide the player to things due to the very nature of it. It is not possible for you to have routine major landmarks or points of interest on what is by the very definition a large empty area where for large amounts of time, there will not be anything in the vision range of the player, certainly not close enough to have the player be able to discern "That looks interesting, I should go that way and see what that is". This is why the Wind Waker has to force the player to go to all the major locations of interest on the map before letting you explore, because otherwise, you'd have a much more difficult time being able to find them.

So then, once you've got to that point in the story, they can at least open it up a little for the content that's left, right? The rest of the game goes roughly Greatifsh isle (Where the game again makes it a bad idea to actually explore until you do a significant chunk of the main quest to dispell the storm) > Back to Windfall to visit the pirates in the storm > Back to outset to get the 3rd pearl > To the tower of the gods and getting the master sword >Back to the forsaken fortress > Dragon roost and forest haven to do the Earth and Wind temples to power up the master sword (And again, the game refuses to let you choose the order you do these in, by preventing Makar from appearing until you've cleared the Earth one, even though there's no good reason for this). Again, you'll note that other than the tower of the gods, everywhere of interest is where the game already forced you to visit previously before actually letting the map be explored.

And then, we get to the one point of the game where it actually wants you to explore the ocean.

The Triforce quest.


And there's the problem; the one point of the game where you're actually expected to do some exploration of the overworld is pretty much universally considered the low point of the game. I'll come back to why this is in a moment, but that's Wind Waker summarized for now.

What about Twilight princess? Everyone agrees that the map here is also heavily linear, so I'm not going to spend as much text on this, but as a summary. You start in Ordon, do the forest temple, head up through eastern hyrule field, get turned in to a wolf and teleported to the castle where you meet Midna, escape back to Hyrule field, head to Kakariko and then Death mountain, continuing anticlockwise around the map, first stopping at to Hyrule castle town and then continuing south to Zoras domain in just as linear a fashion as Wind wakers first 3 dungeons, at which point you're free to explore the map at your leisure again. The rest of the game again largely consists of revisiting these areas you've already explored, with the other segments of the map being more disconnected in the case of TP (the Sacred grove; Gerudo Desert; Snowpeak ruins; Old kakriko village) and a couple of small islands on WW that are part of the triforce quest, otherwise everything is optional. You also get a crappy search quest at the end of TP, but for some reason I can only speculate at, it's not really hated as much as the WW Triforce search (...probably because the dominion rod quest is much shorter?)

At this point in both games, you've seen pretty much all the major landmarks, barring some small places which have upgrades that you may want to collect (...though both games are simple enough that you don't really need them), with similar lists of things scattered through the overworld including heart pieces, item bags/upgrades (heart pieces, bomb bags, quiver,wallets in both games, some armour in TP, various combat upgrades in TP, and the giant spin attack and magic meter upgrade in WW) as well as a bunch of combat challenges (TP makes most if not all of them mandatory as part of the story however, whereas the big octo boss battles are option in WW) and a handful of minigames in both cases. The actual amount of content on the overworlds is pretty much identical, but I'm going off track from what the actual question I was going to answer was; restating it as I would ask it, because this is already a lot of text.

"How did the overworlds of the games The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker and The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess influence that of Breath of the Wild?"

I'd say honestly; not so much for either of them, neither game does a good job of trusting the player can find their way through the overworld the first time with being dragged through with little deviation on path. As has been well documented, they looked further back to the original Zelda game more than anything for inspiration, especially than the latter three 3D zeldas (including Skyward Sword), which were all terrified of letting the player make meaningful choices about how to proceed (OOT and especially MM were more open about this). If anything, that mistake was the major lesson that BOTW drew from all 3 of the games, and I don't think you can end up with BOTW without first having all 3 games and understanding what does and doesn't work.

Basically as I short summary, I think the zelda teams thoughts on each game would have gone something like:

Lessons I think they learned from Wind wakers overworld:

It's possible to scatter content intermittently over a larger map and people will be happy enough with it. It can be surprisingly sparse.

However the moment you force the player to do it (triforce quest), they'll hate it, even if they largely were liking it up to that point.

The style of open world that can be created primarily with an ocean sucks from a design perspective. By it's nature, you cannot appropriately guide the player to points of interest without invisible walls and otherwise forcing them; this needs to be rectified somehow and would be extremely difficult in a setting where you cannot presume the player can always see something of interest.

In addition, the method of transport is very passive. In the original, in order to even change your direction when travelling, you had to stop, play a song, choose one of 8 directions, hope you can get close enough with that direction, and then ... just wait. That's not engaging for a player at all. This is much more easily fixed on land where you can have all sorts of geometry and guide the player from point to point while having that be reasonable.

Lessons from Twilight princess overworld:
An active transportation method is way more involving for the player; it doesn't have to be horses, but you can see how the moment to moment gameplay of exploration in TP is far closer than it is in wind waker, where the player is guided by something that's actually in their visual range to head towards, and then has to actively move Link there instead of picking a direction and waiting. They obviously went even further with making everything climbable.

With the same technology, it's possible to create a much more densely packed overworld on the first travel through, which is better but (and this is a big but) once you've gone through the e.g. boss fights in hyrule field and cleared the resulting enemy encampment or cave; without respawning them it becomes super empty. They kind of got away with it in Wind Waker because it was largely empty to begin with, but it's probably the most common and significant of complaints about TP. This'll be how ideas for things like the blood moon came about.

You can on the other hand trust the player will get to the points of interest eventually even if they get distracted, so it's now OK to put other things nearby, they won't get disorientated, if you've put it on the horizon and know the player can always see it; this is why whenever you hit a larger open area of TP, the goal is something tall. The game is largely linear up to Hyrule Field, at which the game doesn't tell you where to go, but the entrances to other areas are highlighted by converging rock walls, one which has Hyrule castle beyond (you can always see it!), which isn't where you're heading, and you were explicitly told to head towards the nearest Twilight wall, which again, peers over the horizon and can be seen no matter where you are. It does this again from Kakariko, where from a high vantage point you can see Death mountain, which is the next new area you have to head to, and consistently does this throughout the map, even if it probably didn't need to due to the strict linearity. This obviously was way more important in BOTW (and simply the geometry wasn't enough, when they imported the map, it would have lost those hidden things shown outside the play area between loading screens, and then they had to make more landmarks for travel, which they did using a map of Kyoto per that early interview).

Anyway, that's my rambling done; I don't think the overworld of WW influenced BOTW very much at all, certainly not alone; like they've said on several occasions, looking back at the original with its densely packed map did far more than any of the other games in the series.
 
With what I've played of TotK so far, I feel like the BotW template has already proven itself in terms of being exceptionally friendly to iterative sequels.

Like, I love Ocarina of Time, it's still up there as one of the best games of all time, but I feel like Nintendo had a lot of trouble reusing its design without making a game that felt like a kind of retread. The only OoT-like I think really escaped from its shadow was Majora's Mask, and that's because it was trying to be a different kind of game entirely, merely borrowing the OoT form and reshaping it for its own ends. I certainly enjoyed Wind Waker, Twilight Princess, and Skyward Sword on their own merits, and there are absolutely aspects of every game that improve on what OoT did, but I never felt like they came together like OoT did in a holistic sense. Every one of them has some kind of niggling flaw or pacing problems that result in a game that just isn't as purely joyful and masterfully paced as its predecessor.
 
Iterative sequels usually take (substantially) less time to develop than wholly new games. That's just a fact

Yeah, this'll be why they said you don't quite understand what you're talking about. As that's pretty self explanatory because TOTK is by most reasonable definitions not just an iterative sequel, given it completely reimagined how the world is interacted with, even if it does share the same map. The differences mechanically between TOTK and BOTW are far greater than any of the changes between the previous 3D zeldas from OOT to SS even if you don't like that it's the same map. The scope of the game is always way, way larger just in general.
 
Iterative sequels usually take (substantially) less time to develop than wholly new games. That's just a fact
To my understanding this game uses a different engine than BOTW, on hardware that is well past it's shelf live. Both of which provide substantial challenges in themselves. This isn't a port of a WiiU game anymore, this was built from the ground up for Switch. Other than the overall surface map layout, some characters and certain weapons and loot, this is a brand new world with new mechanics, storylines and ways to interact with it.

GTA games are in themselves essentially iterative sequels by way of mechanics yet take ages to develop so that point really doesn't make much sense either.
 
Iterative sequels usually take (substantially) less time to develop than wholly new games. That's just a fact
The boring answer is how long something takes to develop is mainly determined how much time a studio wants to invest in it and in the long term how much money a studio has. Like Silksong seems to be in some ways a very iterative sequel to Hollow Knight though still they are working on it for like forever. Why? Likely because they can afford it.
 
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Like others have said, the engine is different this time around.

Plus, it is not hard to understand why they took six years to release this one. Other than facing a pandemic, it's easy to see the insane amount of debugging they had to do when a massive open-world game (maybe the biggest one ever) includes the abilities to ascend through surfaces, turn back time, and build whatever you want.

Numerous AAA games that feature far less complex mechanics sometimes take as long to make and arrive in the market in a very broken state. Tears of the Kingdom is, on the contrary, polished to a degree that is almost unbelievable.
 
What exactly is “meaningful content”? Dungeons and story are not the only meaningful content in any Zelda game, especially this one. Me building a spaceship to see how far I can fly is meaningful content. Me trying to access as many lightroots as I can in the depths is meaningful content. Me spotting a huge boss in the distance and running to go fight it is meaningful content.

There’s plenty of unique things to interact with the world even if you for some reason hate shrines. Which themselves are also meaningful content because they encourage exploration to find them and creativity to solve them.

I don’t know, I think framing it as “anything that isn’t tied to story progression is just a massive grind and a waste of time” is completely missing the point of the game.
It’s a grind in the sense that the game itself is grindy, that was simply never a problem in Zelda. I don’t even mention “story” in the sense of plot progression, I’m talking about how many of the content has some kind of scenario about them, how many of them have a distinct purpose.

Shrines just don’t do it because you always know what to expect. Sure, the core gameplay is good, the puzzles are good, some Shrines are bigger than others, same with caves. They are still very formulaic to their core concept, why would I be content with “appreciating the journey and joy of exploration” when most of the time, the destination are Shrines. It undermines the whole thing, the game doesn’t feel as alive or memorable when the points of interest that outnumber the most interesting ones are monochrome puzzle rooms. Some have keys in them and have two chests instead of one but they are still Shrines, they don’t really expand upon their individual concepts the way that dungeons do. I just never feel like I’m reaching a climax when I clear a new Shrine, it’s like the whole game is eating potato chips but other Zeldas had full courses.

Getting health upgrades in past Zeldas was more interesting because Heart Pieces were found in a variety of contexts that were always more complex than Rupees. Sometimes it’s a secret, other times you use a new item, you help NPCs that have problems that you figure out not because they have an exclamation mark and give you a fetch quest. Sure you can refute by saying that Shrines have better puzzles or that you could never get to Heart Pieces by building spaceships but that’s not the point. The amount of truly distinct content in open air Zeldas is simply disproportionate compared to the more repetitive or formulaic stuff, that’s it. The progression system doesn’t help either because on top of never unlocking new abilities, the fact that most collectables are consumable resources just makes things grindy. You sell stuff because the game barely gives you rupees so you can buy armor, you upgrade armor, you get health/stamina upgrades. You basically get a bunch of stuff that only does something once you have enough, then you can have some kind of permanent upgrade to make your navigation easier, rinse and repeat. Meanwhile everything in past Zeldas was immediately useful, there’s a reason why the chest jingle is so iconic. If that’s not a grind idk what it is, sure it’s not explicitly grindy in the same ways than some RPGs are but it’s still a grind in the sense that you need a lot of something in order to do something. Again, past Zeldas never had this problem, even Wind Waker with the Triforce Quest wasn’t grindy because while you needed a lot of Rupees to appraise the charts, the game always gave you some near them so you never really needed to “farm” money, can’t say the same about buying armor in BOTW/TOTK. Skyward Sword item upgrades never felt grindy at all, some materials come from monsters, others are chests that are basically between Rupees and Heart Pieces in terms of complexity, getting enough gets you item upgrades which aren’t vital to complete puzzles but still very noteworthy, they are conceptually the same than something like the Longshot, which is good.

Here another example on how the game can fall flat for me and that has nothing to do with me missing the point. So in BOTW there’s Lanaryu mountain, if you can see a mountain you can climb it. I climb it early-ish game, I use warming meals, I’m engaging with the game, I avoid Lynels, it’s all good. On top there’s the sick ice dragon, if you can count it as a boss fight it would be one of the best in gaming. At the end of all that what happens? You get a Shrine of blessing with a breakable weapon, not even something like an ice weapon that recharges like the Master Sword, no just another breakable weapon. If that wasn’t anticlimactic enough, the worst part is that the other two dragons’ quests aren’t nearly as good. On top of that, the persistent effect in saving them just means that they are out there roaming again so you can catch them and shoot at specific parts to get crafting materials to dully upgrade your armors. If that doesn’t highlight how the whole structure of Shrines and crafting materials undermines the game I dunno what else to say.

Other Zeldas simply don’t have this problem, stuff like themed dungeons and new items are an easy element to mention because they completely address the issue of Shrines being too repetitive and not unique enough. MM alone is a testament on how the Zelda team has the ability of mixing things up, meaning that the other 3D games were never stuck in a corner, it was just circumstances that lead the last few ones into being more formulaic with the three dungeons -> twist -> more dungeons -> boss structure. Therefore it’s bullshit to imply stuff like “old Zelda belongs in the trash, other series can have dungeons, sales speak for themselves” (this sentiment isn’t as present here but still). Basically what I’m saying is that the people preferring older Zelda feel that way not because they miss the point of the game, it’s simply because they have a problem with certain design and pacing issues that older Zelda never had. Those are legit criticisms and not troll stuff like what certain console warriors and David Jaffe are saying. Mario can be linear or open. Metroid can be more exploration focused or more action/horror focused (still retains the core Metroid elements). Long running series can have different focuses in their design philosophies between games. But with Zelda it’s fine to settle with it borrowing concepts from other open world games that usually aren’t even in the same genre just because it hits the right notes on concepts like “exploration and freedom”? They honestly ran Shrines and story flashbacks to the ground after only two games. No matter how cool the mechanics are, this sentiment will always be present if the games don’t provide contexts that are more appealing. “Bringing dungeons back” isn’t making a step back, it’s simply looking back at a series with a very rich history to then fully expand and build on interesting concepts that didn’t have the opportunity to blossom, to evolve due to certain hardware limitations (reminder that SS was a Wii game, if it wasn’t it would have over 3 areas and be actually interconnected). That’s it
 
With what I've played of TotK so far, I feel like the BotW template has already proven itself in terms of being exceptionally friendly to iterative sequels.

Like, I love Ocarina of Time, it's still up there as one of the best games of all time, but I feel like Nintendo had a lot of trouble reusing its design without making a game that felt like a kind of retread. The only OoT-like I think really escaped from its shadow was Majora's Mask, and that's because it was trying to be a different kind of game entirely, merely borrowing the OoT form and reshaping it for its own ends. I certainly enjoyed Wind Waker, Twilight Princess, and Skyward Sword on their own merits, and there are absolutely aspects of every game that improve on what OoT did, but I never felt like they came together like OoT did in a holistic sense. Every one of them has some kind of niggling flaw or pacing problems that result in a game that just isn't as purely joyful and masterfully paced as its predecessor.
Agreed. The whole run of WW/TP/SS, with hindsight, comes off as the Zelda team constantly trying to figure out how to strike gold again with the OOT formula while also experimenting on the margins but never really having the confidence to break away and trying something new (or the realities of development making it unfeasible). All of these games are worth playing (Twilight Princess is probably the game most responsible for making me a big Zelda fan even if I’ve cooled on it overtime), and I’d play another like them, but you can really feel how the team has been creatively invigorated by the new formula.

OOT/MM were just kind of a 1-2 lightning in a bottle combo that is hard to follow up. It’s possible I suppose BOTW/TOTK is a similar lightning in a bottle but I think the team has proven they’re more than capable of delivering here, so I’m optimistic going forward.
 
as most of us expected. I love the OoT style games but i do not want a return to that formula after playing the masterpeices that were botw and now totk
 
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Agreed. The whole run of WW/TP/SS, with hindsight, comes off as the Zelda team constantly trying to figure out how to strike gold again with the OOT formula while also experimenting on the margins but never really having the confidence to break away and trying something new (or the realities of development making it unfeasible). All of these games are worth playing (Twilight Princess is probably the game most responsible for making me a big Zelda fan even if I’ve cooled on it overtime), and I’d play another like them, but you can really feel how the team has been creatively invigorated by the new formula.

OOT/MM were just kind of a 1-2 lightning in a bottle combo that is hard to follow up. It’s possible I suppose BOTW/TOTK is a similar lightning in a bottle but I think the team has proven they’re more than capable of delivering here, so I’m optimistic going forward.
I definitely have mixed feelings on all three of those games, while still enjoying them quite a lot.

I think Wind Waker was easily the boldest attempt of the three, from its art style, to the attempt at an open world, and the absolute charm of the storytelling. It's easily the strongest narrative of the post-N64 Zeldas, with the most memorable and thematically-interesting climax. Unfortunately, the Gamecube was simply not up to the task of their vision for an open world, hence the horribly awkward and slow sailing, and the game was heavily rushed, resulting in missing dungeons, a bad fetch quest, and the later dungeons they did keep are pretty terrible too.

Twilight Princess is very much a reaction to Wind Waker's reception, and one of the most blatant attempts to pander to the west Nintendo has ever attempted. Now, that doesn't make it bad, but it's painfully obvious they were making this game with the goal "Ocarina of Time 2" in mind (ironically, when they made a literal sequel in Link Between Worlds, it still feels less pandering than TP). Where WW was brought down by some terrible dungeons, TP is possibly the high point of the series, although I might say OoT is still better now. OTOH the overworld is really quite awful and exploring has rarely been less fun in a Zelda, and the pacing of the game is terrible at the beginning. Midna is a charming character, but otherwise the narrative is an absolute mess, and the entire villain situation ends in an utterly unsatisfying way.

Skyward Sword feels simultaneously bold and hesitant in its design. The Wii Motion+ use results in some of the deepest and most satisfying combat the series has ever had, there are some truly incredible dungeons, both in concept and design, and the Lanayru region has some incredible level design throughout. OTOH, it's incredibly handhold-y in all aspects, and more linear than almost any other Zelda game. The disconnected world feels very un-Zelda-like, and the reuse of levels and content in the non-Lanayru regions gets tired pretty quickly. The characters are charming and the story is certainly a step up from TP, but it's very much a game of highs and lows. And of course there are a bunch of RPG elements that ended up only truly being realized in BotW.
 
I definitely have mixed feelings on all three of those games, while still enjoying them quite a lot.

I think Wind Waker was easily the boldest attempt of the three, from its art style, to the attempt at an open world, and the absolute charm of the storytelling. It's easily the strongest narrative of the post-N64 Zeldas, with the most memorable and thematically-interesting climax. Unfortunately, the Gamecube was simply not up to the task of their vision for an open world, hence the horribly awkward and slow sailing, and the game was heavily rushed, resulting in missing dungeons, a bad fetch quest, and the later dungeons they did keep are pretty terrible too.

Twilight Princess is very much a reaction to Wind Waker's reception, and one of the most blatant attempts to pander to the west Nintendo has ever attempted. Now, that doesn't make it bad, but it's painfully obvious they were making this game with the goal "Ocarina of Time 2" in mind (ironically, when they made a literal sequel in Link Between Worlds, it still feels less pandering than TP). Where WW was brought down by some terrible dungeons, TP is possibly the high point of the series, although I might say OoT is still better now. OTOH the overworld is really quite awful and exploring has rarely been less fun in a Zelda, and the pacing of the game is terrible at the beginning. Midna is a charming character, but otherwise the narrative is an absolute mess, and the entire villain situation ends in an utterly unsatisfying way.

Skyward Sword feels simultaneously bold and hesitant in its design. The Wii Motion+ use results in some of the deepest and most satisfying combat the series has ever had, there are some truly incredible dungeons, both in concept and design, and the Lanayru region has some incredible level design throughout. OTOH, it's incredibly handhold-y in all aspects, and more linear than almost any other Zelda game. The disconnected world feels very un-Zelda-like, and the reuse of levels and content in the non-Lanayru regions gets tired pretty quickly. The characters are charming and the story is certainly a step up from TP, but it's very much a game of highs and lows. And of course there are a bunch of RPG elements that ended up only truly being realized in BotW.
Yeah, all three of the games have pretty significant problems that weigh them down. It's just that I was in high school when Twilight Princess came out and something of a lapsed Zelda fan, but it brought me back to the series and engaged my adolescent sensibilities with its dark aesthetic perfectly. As an adult in my 30s I recognize its flaws but I still think of the game fondly overall. I look past a lot of its issues due to it having arguably the best dungeons in the series as you said, so I'd consider it my favorite of the 3, but still quite below OOT/MM.

In a way I think it's a similar problem to how Nintendo perfected the 2D Mario formula with SMB3/SMW and every 2D Mario game since has just felt like a repackaging of their ideas (though obviously I wouldn't consider WW/TP/SS to be as safe and formulaic as the NSMB series).
 
I love this template from BoTW/ToTK but I wouldn't mind if they shake things up a bit to bring new ways to progress through the adventure.

Now I need a brand new map. I'd love a TWW style avdenture where you explore an ednless ocean with huge islandes and different biomes. But I also need a game where you can finally explore underwater and I don' think it will be done if we get a TWW-like game again. Anyway, I just need and brand new map, don't care if it's Hyrule again because Hyrule from OoT, TP and BoTW are all different, and a similar artsyle but with next-generation graphics.
 
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I feel like it’s become pretty obvious that the Zelda team sees the BotW/TotK "open air" template as more creatively rewarding and I think the next one will go even further in refining and modifying what they have built over the last decade plus. Aside from that, none of the elements that both of these games have introduced really seem like they’re super sacred. The "BotW-isms" as well as the more "traditional" Zelda elements will be switched in and out as they see fit, it’s up to anyone to decide whether that’s good enough for them.
My prediction for the future of Zelda is that the next couple of games will change the primary setting (e.g. a water world or even space), the powers, and the art style. I could also see them dialing back the size of the world significantly. You can envision how a Zelda game that took place entirely in a giant forest country (think Kashyyk from Star Wars) with multiple levels of villages at different heights of trees and a different art style would feel very different.
 
the idea that shrines are the only reward was maaayyybe believable in botw, but in totk its laughable considering all the hidden armor pieces
 
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I'd like to see this gameplay in a less wide open map next time, with more tight and structured areas. Not to say this would mean areas could only be progressed via one way, but that areas could be more intricately designed, have more puzzles integrated into the world.

To fit with a more condensed world, I'd want to keep climbing and gliding, but it should be reworked. Being able to climb literally everything makes it more difficult to create structure without making everything massive. It makes sense to make more surfaces unclimbable, which would allow for a lot more structured puzzles outside of shrines.
 
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I don't mind the non-linearity but that doesn't have nor should it come at the cost of an engaging present day story or lengthy linear puzzle heavy dungeons. If the next game is another wide open world with bite size open-ended mini-dungeons, memories to collect where all of the main story is in the past, and dungeons that are basically "go do five things" that's gonna really suck.

the idea that shrines are the only reward was maaayyybe believable in botw, but in totk its laughable considering all the hidden armor pieces
Most of the armor pieces are from BOTW. The only real good rewards imo are the
Sages Wills and what you get from the Yiga.

If there was more like that the game would be better.
 
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I hope the next one doesn't take that long. Legitimately don't understand how TOTK took 6+ years to make. For a same-engine sequel with heavy asset reuse it doesn't make sense, even with COVID it should have taken 4 years tops.
Getting the new Zonai abilities to work, creating the changed Hyrule.. They didn't exactly toggle the "run on Switch" button either, everyone is saying how impressive and miraclous is this game is even able to run on the Switch.
For perspective, SS->BOTW was only 5 years and 4 months, and they undoubtedly sat on the game for awhile for the Switch launch. TOTK somehow took longer despite being an iterative sequel.
They confirmed BOTW went gold early February of 2017. That's not exactly sitting on it. Also, if you've watched the BOTW behind the scenes videos you'll learn that Fujibayashi said they started development of BOTW in January of 2013.

Making games is hard.
 
I think adding water exploration to the next Zelda is pretty likely, and I think the idea that it would be as vapid as Wind Waker, a 20-year-old game, is a misguided fear. I wouldn't expect it to be the whole game or even the primary game though, rather, it would be like the sky and the depths in TotK, adding new layers to the existing exploration.
 
I think adding water exploration to the next Zelda is pretty likely, and I think the idea that it would be as vapid as Wind Waker, a 20-year-old game, is a misguided fear. I wouldn't expect it to be the whole game or even the primary game though, rather, it would be like the sky and the depths in TotK, adding new layers to the existing exploration.
The glorious return of the Zora mask mechanic. The way it worked in the original, not the nerfed remake version.
 
Keep the format, but take us to a new Hyrule next time. :)
Nah, how about this? Take us OUT of Hyrule. Remove the Master Sword. Introduce a new villain. Heck, maybe don’t even include Zelda at all.

I love BOTW and TOTK but their insistence on Hyrule this, Hyrule that has become a bit stagnant, I really miss when Zelda games had entirely different worlds like Koholint and Termina.
 
I’m cool with leaving dungeons behind and building off of what they’re currently doing. Dungeons were never defined by their specific puzzle themes and ideas, but rather the complex navigation of managing multiple locks, keys, and switches all at once. That just doesn’t really work with the current formula, and that’s ok.

It generally does feel like the Zelda team hit a wall after Ocarina, constantly making (very good) sidesteps rather than pushing the medium forward. They’ve found their stride in regards to creativity and ingenuity with modern Zelda, and there’s still plenty of room to continue innovating, so keeping the current template feels like a much better use of resources.
 
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because the destination isn't the point, the process of getting there is
The destination is beating Ganondorf

This argument is honestly pretty hilarious, every time a game has too much empty space people have that on speed dial as if it’s the perfect gotcha there is. Since when “going up a mountain” is impressive in a videogame. When you hike and touch grass irl, when you travel irl, it feels good because you’re doing it irl, you’re experiencing headfirst the result of thousands of years of nature and human history. Making big, pretty and realistic 3D worlds in a game isn’t impressive. Therefore you need something to break the monotony, that’s where the unique stuff comes in. Challenges, towns, dungeons, you name it. Having more monochrome puzzle rooms than any other type of more scenarized content simply hurts the game’s world as a whole. If you truly feel like the core gameplay loop of the whole game is rather about “getting there” it’s a pretty weak excuse honestly. Sure, both open air games add a lot of options in terms of gameplay but at it’s core, you were already doing stuff like fighting enemies, using abilities and going from point A to point B in other games. Sure you can go anywhere, you can climb anywhere, you got some new interactions, but at the end of the day if the world itself is uneven and rarely reaches the highs of past games it’s just not a fair trade.

Again, complaining about the game’s structure doesn’t mean I or anyone else that prefer other Zeldas just wants “TP all over again” or “oh so you just want another checklist gamey theme park open world”, that’s not the case at all. The current structure of the open air games simply brings design and pacing issues that were never present in past games, therefore it’s something that they can improve on. Even if you personally don’t mind it, saying that I’m missing the point is just deflecting

Sorry if any of that sounded blunt but that’s simply how it is, dunno what else to say
 
I think adding water exploration to the next Zelda is pretty likely, and I think the idea that it would be as vapid as Wind Waker, a 20-year-old game, is a misguided fear. I wouldn't expect it to be the whole game or even the primary game though, rather, it would be like the sky and the depths in TotK, adding new layers to the existing exploration.
I just wanna swim underwater again
Sorry if any of that sounded blunt but that’s simply how it is, dunno what else to say
You seem to dominate these threads with an authoritative argument about how the games "should" be and seemingly be unable to accept that the majority of people love the games or they're somehow wrong for loving it, it's honestly pretty weird
 
The destination is beating Ganondorf
...
Even if you personally don’t mind it, saying that I’m missing the point is just deflecting
You're either purposefully ignoring what they're saying or just actually missing the point if you think they're deflecting. The adventure is why people are playing it, not the final boss at the end.

Also like, your opinion is completely valid, but you keep making gigantic posts that amount to "I don't think this is ideal and you need to accept that I am right." It's not exactly conducive to discussion, nor does it make people want to engage.
 


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