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Discussion Eiji Aonuma confirms BOTW/TOTK will be the template for Zelda going forward

Personally I don't really want a big ocean to explore, but give me a bunch of lakes and underwater caves and shit like that.
LukasManak22 said:
People were hating Wind Waker and now they want ocean exploration Zelda. The cycle is real.
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Not me, I'm a proud hater
 
PixelKnight said:
As long as we keep getting the 2D ones I don’t mind. While ToTK has the immersion and a game length that likely take me months to finish, Sometimes I prefer the immediacy of something like LBW, where I can play for an hour and feel like I made some progress.
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Feel thé same. I Hope we'll have new 2D titles, and undortunately, I'm affraid Nintendo will rather like remakes
 
boodream said:
Feel thé same. I Hope we'll have new 2D titles, and undortunately, I'm affraid Nintendo will rather like remakes
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It feels like they have been setting up Grezzo as a potential 2D Zelda developer. Let's see what they have in store for us next.
 
LukasManak22 said:
People were hating Wind Waker and now they want ocean exploration Zelda. The cycle is real.
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There's no cycle. Some people always loved it and some people always hated it. Maybe the voices of people who loved it are more dominant now that the franchise has gone in a more "Wind Waker" direction. That's all.
 
terrornaught said:
Sad but expected. I am really quite enjoying tears after hating BOTW but it’s still no substitute for a traditional Zelda game.

We never even got a new traditional Zelda in HD.
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At this point I just don't know what you people even mean with traditional Zelda. What is it that TotK isn't able to give you that a traditional Zelda can?
 
I’m interested to see how Genshin Impact does swimming stuff from 4.0 onwards. There will be underwater exploration for sure.

There’s already a boat too.

I think water traversal and exploration should be part of a game rather than the whole game, or should I say the heart of the game.

I really liked Wind Waker though so it can be done.
 
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takriel said:
At this point I just don't know what you people even mean with traditional Zelda. What is it that TotK isn't able to give you that a traditional Zelda can?
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At the most basic level, not an open world. Zelda is my favourite video game series of all time, but I loathe open world games.

That gameplay loop of exploration, dungeon, epic boss battle, new item that lets me explore new areas and delve even deeper into areas I’ve been to before. The gameplay constantly evolving after every new item keeping the game feeling fresh and exciting all the way to the end.

It really is a testament to the Zelda team that I am even enjoying an open world game. It definitely has the Zelda ‘DNA’ but it certainly does not scratch my Zelda ‘itch’.
 
It obviously makes sense to continue with the open-air games; they're selling insanely well.
Personally this is the worst direction the franchise could take and I guess I'll have to let go, even though it's my favorite series. Guess this is what it feels like for Final Fantasy fans who dislike the newer entries lol
 
terrornaught said:
That gameplay loop of exploration, dungeon, epic boss battle, new item that lets me explore new areas and delve even deeper into areas I’ve been to before. The gameplay constantly evolving after every new item keeping the game feeling fresh and exciting all the way to the end.
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Without putting words in someone's mouth, the root of the question you're responding to is wrapped up in your description of a traditional Zelda game above. I've experienced all of those things in both BOTW and TotK. The difference is that the items aren't hookshots but armor sets and hundreds of craftable items that let you go to new areas. Significantly, the items in 3D Zeldaa from Ocarina-Skyward Sword always felt so limited to me bc they were useful/necessary in a handful of contexts (e.g., the mirror shield in TP) and then there was no need to touch them again.

In contrast, I understand 100% when ppl bring up the open world as a negative component. Wide linear games are fundamentally different and much more curated experiences than open world games. At some point, ppl will reach open world fatigue and that's when we'll see a less-open Zelda. It took 20 years for that to happen with the older 3D format, so look for Zelda to evolve around 2037!
 
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Vaenyr said:
It obviously makes sense to continue with the open-air games; they're selling insanely well.
Personally this is the worst direction the franchise could take and I guess I'll have to let go, even though it's my favorite series. Guess this is what it feels like for Final Fantasy fans who dislike the newer entries lol
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While massive, we're not at the "you're favorite team turn battle rpg is now devil may cry" level of shift.
 
Vaenyr said:
It obviously makes sense to continue with the open-air games; they're selling insanely well.
Personally this is the worst direction the franchise could take and I guess I'll have to let go, even though it's my favorite series. Guess this is what it feels like for Final Fantasy fans who dislike the newer entries lol
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I'm pretty sure Nintendo will fill the gaps with other entries beyond the mainline games (especially to keep the franchise active between the 5-6 years of development for the mainline games).
 
Stairouais said:
While massive, we're not at the "you're favorite team turn battle rpg is now devil may cry" level of shift.
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That's true, the fundamental Zelda DNA is still present in BOTW/TOTK. I just dislike the sandbox elements and would prefer something in the vein of TP or SS. Both BOTW and TOTK are expertly made games and impressive achievements. They're just not for me though. I'm having an alright time while playing them, but there's always a "this isn't even close to what I want out of a Zelda game/what I enjoy about Zelda games" in the back of my mind.

FF16 looks to be right up my alley, so I'm looking forward to that at least lol

Zeroth said:
I'm pretty sure Nintendo will fill the gaps with other entries beyond the mainline games (especially to keep the franchise active between the 5-6 years of development for the mainline games).
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Yeah, that's what I'm assuming (and hoping) as well. Zelda has been a yearly franchise for a long time, something that used to be an explicit goal for the Zelda team. They won't let the franchise become a once or twice a decade series and they're slowly running out of time for games to remake (though I'd love the Oracles in the style of Link's Awakening HD). At some point they'll have to develop something else, so between the massive open-air releases, spin-offs like the Warriors games or Cadence Of Hyrule, and the remakes I'm hoping for a new 2D entry. I'd love an OOT-style 3D game by Grezzo, though it's unlikely.
 
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brainchild said:
I don't agree with this, especially when you factor in that Zelda is a fantasy franchise.

There is plenty you can do with fluid dynamics and weather phenomena in the sea to make sailing or underwater exploration interesting, and it would be neither definitionally flat nor necessarily boring. Nintendo could also create interesting structures both on the surface of the water and below it.

Air is not an inherently more interesting medium than water, it just so happens to be the more convenient medium in which humans can survive. In a fantasy video game, there are limitless ways in which you could harness the latest advancements in hardware and software, combined what the ingenuity of some of the most creative game developers in the world, to create an appealing theme around water, both on and below the surface.

I'm not necessarily saying that the next Zelda should be open-water themed, but I don't think it would be the antithesis of the open-air concept, and if physics is going to play a large role, there will need to be technical solutions for making it work as well as aerodynamics work in TOTK.
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Yep. The arguments against a game that introduces ocean and water traversal are often taking a narrow view as to what one might expect an ocean to be based on the past. Again, such a direct comparison to Wind Waker is as flawed a comparison as comparing ToTK to Skyward Sword's Sky, or hell even Botw to the original LoZ. It lacks the context of this thread, which is about the BoTW template being the path forward for the series.

Hailinel said:
It has definitely not gone in that direction.
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There's a reason we got Wind Waker HD prior to BoTW, a port which was handled internally as an explorative step for Botw's art style and open direction (unlike Twilight Princess HD which was outsourced). We also got Skyward Sword HD prior to ToTK, though that too was outsourced and not an intentional exploration by the team, as shared by Aonuma himself.

Though, I think you could make an argument about nearly any Zelda game contributing to the direction of Botw.... but that doesn't mean it's going in their direction. At it's core, the true inspiration was the original NES title. As a Wind Waker fan, I feel "fed" by Botw in a sense of it pushing the bounds and definition of the series per it's original inspiration (unlike a title like Twilight Princess which felt like a step back to OOT in that perspective), but that's a read of personal taste and only a fraction of what Botw/Totk have to offer.
 
Hailinel said:
It has definitely not gone in that direction.
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I think BotW (and TotK) are far more like WW than they are like TP or SS, at least in one key way. WW was a very early prototype of an open world game. The lack of density is intentional. Of course, you might think that WW goes way too far and has nothing to do. I was able to vibe on just sailing around, so I never had that problem. But even so, I think WW and BotW are in the same lineage, if otherwise very different games.
 
totofogo said:
Yep. The arguments against a game that introduces ocean and water traversal are very narrow-minded as to what one might expect an ocean to be based on the past. Again, such a direct comparison to Wind Waker is as flawed a comparison as comparing ToTK to Skyward Sword's Sky, or hell even Botw to the original LoZ. It lacks the context of this thread, which is about the BoTW template being the path forward for the series.


There's a reason we got Wind Waker HD prior to BoTW, a port which was handled internally as an explorative step for Botw's art style and open direction (unlike Twilight Princess HD which was outsourced). We also got Skyward Sword HD prior to ToTK, though that too was outsourced and not an intentional exploration by the team, as shared by Aonuma himself.

Though, I think you could make an argument about nearly any Zelda game contributing to the direction of Botw.... but that doesn't mean it's going in their direction. At it's core, the true inspiration was the original NES title. As a Wind Waker fan, I feel "fed" by Botw in a sense of it pushing the bounds and definition of the series per it's original inspiration (unlike a title like Twilight Princess which felt like a step back to OOT in that perspective), but that's a read of personal taste and only a fraction of what Botw/Totk have to offer.
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The Wind Waker port was done in part for the EPD Zelda team to learn HD game development. Not to be the primary influence of Breath of the Wild. And it would be silly to argue that Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword weren't just as instructive if not moreso. Many of the people that worked on those games worked on BotW.
 
Hailinel said:
The Wind Waker port was done in part for the EPD Zelda team to learn HD game development. Not to be the primary influence of Breath of the Wild. And it would be silly to argue that Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword weren't just as instructive if not moreso. Many of the people that worked on those games worked on BotW.
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I'm not sure why you're cherry picking and responding to the first part of my response, when I expand on exactly what you're saying in the second part, I’m not arguing SS or TPs influence.

To be more concise: LoZ, and the original intentions of the series, set the direction for botw. Every other title along the way influenced it.
 
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Dizzle said:
I think BotW (and TotK) are far more like WW than they are like TP or SS, at least in one key way. WW was a very early prototype of an open world game. The lack of density is intentional. Of course, you might think that WW goes way too far and has nothing to do. I was able to vibe on just sailing around, so I never had that problem. But even so, I think WW and BotW are in the same lineage, if otherwise very different games.
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totofogo said:
There's a reason we got Wind Waker HD prior to BoTW, a port which was handled internally as an explorative step for Botw's art style and open direction (unlike Twilight Princess HD which was outsourced). We also got Skyward Sword HD prior to ToTK, though that too was outsourced and not an intentional exploration by the team, as shared by Aonuma himself.

Though, I think you could make an argument about nearly any Zelda game contributing to the direction of Botw.... but that doesn't mean it's going in their direction. At it's core, the true inspiration was the original NES title. As a Wind Waker fan, I feel "fed" by Botw in a sense of it pushing the bounds and definition of the series per it's original inspiration (unlike a title like Twilight Princess which felt like a step back to OOT in that perspective), but that's a read of personal taste and only a fraction of what Botw/Totk have to offer.
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Aonuma literally called Twilight Princess the starting point for BOTW in an interview for Twilight Princess HD, take it up with him.

"While making the latest title for The Legend of Zelda, when I look at this remake, I feel like this is the origin point of the new title we’re making right now. After playing this game you may have some “Oh I see!” moments when playing the [upcoming] new game, so I’ll be glad if you play Twilight Princess HD while waiting in anticipation for the latest title of Legend of Zelda."
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Lelouch0612 already made a very well written thread on this, that I would encourage everyone to read regardless, that includes how one of the first things they did was import the TP map to see how it looked and whether making it without loading screens was feasible. There's a cool screenshot in their thread of it.

famiboards.com

[Install Base] A Sales Story: Breath of the Wild

Hello everyone ! Over the past weeks, as the Tears of the Kingdom hype was inexorably increasing, I shared on Famiboards the first part of Install Base's latest "A Sales Story" format, focusing on Breath of the Wild. The piece was written by Ishaan, who you might know, and was welcomed very...
famiboards.com famiboards.com
 
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Linkstrikesback said:
Lelouch0612 already made a very well written thread on this, that I would encourage everyone to read regardless, that includes how one of the first things they did was import the TP map to see how it looked and whether making it without loading screens was feasible. There's a cool screenshot in their thread of it.

famiboards.com

[Install Base] A Sales Story: Breath of the Wild

Hello everyone ! Over the past weeks, as the Tears of the Kingdom hype was inexorably increasing, I shared on Famiboards the first part of Install Base's latest "A Sales Story" format, focusing on Breath of the Wild. The piece was written by Ishaan, who you might know, and was welcomed very...
famiboards.com famiboards.com
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Ooh thanks for sharing!
 
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It’s funny, reading other places like Reddit, you’d think ToTK and BotW were hated, critical poor, and unpopular games with how many people are bemoaning this as the death of Zelda.

I think a few classic Zelda fans are getting dangerously close to acting like the worst of the OG Paper Mario games. Where the success and popularity of the new stuff is somehow wrong and only by catering to them will the franchise succeed.
 
xaszatm said:
It’s funny, reading other places like Reddit, you’d think ToTK and BotW were hated, critical poor, and unpopular games with how many people are bemoaning this as the death of Zelda.

I think classic Zelda fans are getting dangerously close to acting like the worst of the OG Paper Mario games. Where the success and popularity of the new stuff is somehow wrong and only by catering to them will the franchise succeed.
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Where on reddit are you reading this? TOTK has been extremely popular since it released.
 
I have a friend that really hated the direction BotW took. Though I think his hopes for a solution to his issues (the level of openness gave him anxiety and choice paralysis) were unrealistic. (Basically some sort of toggle that would force the game to play more like an older Zelda that swapped cooking for hunting hearts for health, traditional heart container hunts, etc.) There was just no way that BotW would satisfy every old school Zelda fan.
 
Linkstrikesback said:
Aonuma literally called Twilight Princess the starting point for BOTW in an interview for Twilight Princess HD, take it up with him.



Lelouch0612 already made a very well written thread on this, that I would encourage everyone to read regardless, that includes how one of the first things they did was import the TP map to see how it looked and whether making it without loading screens was feasible. There's a cool screenshot in their thread of it.

famiboards.com

[Install Base] A Sales Story: Breath of the Wild

Hello everyone ! Over the past weeks, as the Tears of the Kingdom hype was inexorably increasing, I shared on Famiboards the first part of Install Base's latest "A Sales Story" format, focusing on Breath of the Wild. The piece was written by Ishaan, who you might know, and was welcomed very...
famiboards.com famiboards.com
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I mean, it was an interview promoting Twilight Princess HD, so I'm not really surprised he said "And if you like this game, well the next Zelda game coming out is just like it!" Not a very compelling argument without any explanation of what that connection supposedly is.

What do you think the connection is? What does TP do that BotW really picks up on? Not a rhetorical question. I know there's some talk about the topography of the map being similarly up and down, but beyond that I'm not sure what Aonuma might be referring to.
 
Hailinel said:
I have a friend that really hated the direction BotW took. Though I think his hopes for a solution to his issues (the level of openness gave him anxiety and choice paralysis) were unrealistic. (Basically some sort of toggle that would force the game to play more like an older Zelda that swapped cooking for hunting hearts for health, traditional heart container hunts, etc.) There was just no way that BotW would satisfy every old school Zelda fan.
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When you have a series run for 35 years and change, you inevitably have a big, fragmented fanbase that likes different things from the series. TOTK is different from my "ideal" Zelda in a lot of ways, but you know what? It's so damn fantastic I straight up don't care. It's an amazing game and gave me something I didn't even know I wanted. If I could snap my fingers and make it so, I'd have "wide linear" dungeon games made alongside the BOTW/TOTK ones (kind of like what Resident Evil is doing), but I know from a resource perspective that's very unrealistic. At the very least though having consistent 2D games would be nice.

Things change, and you know what, after some hesitation I've embraced it. Sometimes it's good to be forced out of your comfort zone. Like I said earlier though, I am sympathetic to people who feel like they've lost "their" Zelda. I mean, I sorta feel that way too, but that's not the fault of TOTK which is very much its own thing. Instead of playing it hoping it's a game it's not, I've learned to love it for what it is. I also think there's still some things from the older games they could add in without breaking the flow of the open world, but TOTK is definitely an encouraging sign for the series' future.
 
Linkstrikesback said:
Lelouch0612 already made a very well written thread on this, that I would encourage everyone to read regardless, that includes how one of the first things they did was import the TP map to see how it looked and whether making it without loading screens was feasible. There's a cool screenshot in their thread of it.

famiboards.com

[Install Base] A Sales Story: Breath of the Wild

Hello everyone ! Over the past weeks, as the Tears of the Kingdom hype was inexorably increasing, I shared on Famiboards the first part of Install Base's latest "A Sales Story" format, focusing on Breath of the Wild. The piece was written by Ishaan, who you might know, and was welcomed very...
famiboards.com famiboards.com
Click to expand...
That was a wonderful read! Expanding on my thoughts on it in reply to the below, but I also think it's super interesting to note how WW was hamstrung by the "short development cycle" approach they were taking, which strengthens my feeling that there are many a stone unturned in that kind of world.

Dizzle said:
I mean, it was an interview promoting Twilight Princess HD, so I'm not really surprised he said "And if you like this game, well the next Zelda game coming out is just like it!" Not a very compelling argument without any explanation of what that connection supposedly is.

What do you think the connection is? What does TP do that BotW really picks up on? Not a rhetorical question. I know there's some talk about the topography of the map being similarly up and down, but beyond that I'm not sure what Aonuma might be referring to.
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Yeah, while I think that's a cool development note (map reuse), the quote is biased by being plucked from an interview literally marketing TP: HD. Similar quotes can be plucked from WWHD and SSHD's marketing, which all utilize the same "please look forward to the next title, and relive the series' history in X". Each game innovated somewhere that BOTW carries forward - TP in world design, WW in open nature and art style (which similarly was used during development), SS in mechanics...

I think the most clear representation of why I view LoZ -> WW -> BoTW as a clear development on one another is the original introduction video from E3 2014 where Aounuma literally references both of those game to introduce BoTW. This is divorced from any need to market another title, and was our true first look at Botw.



Sure, you could say that too was done just to plug the latest HD release too, but it felt more intentional than that to me. ToTK even brings us closer to that idea of "big wide world" with small areas to explore, this time caves rather than islands.
 
Mekanos said:
When you have a series run for 35 years and change, you inevitably have a big, fragmented fanbase that likes different things from the series. TOTK is different from my "ideal" Zelda in a lot of ways, but you know what? It's so damn fantastic I straight up don't care. It's an amazing game and gave me something I didn't even know I wanted. If I could snap my fingers and make it so, I'd have "wide linear" dungeon games made alongside the BOTW/TOTK ones (kind of like what Resident Evil is doing), but I know from a resource perspective that's very unrealistic. At the very least though having consistent 2D games would be nice.

Things change, and you know what, after some hesitation I've embraced it. Sometimes it's good to be forced out of your comfort zone. Like I said earlier though, I am sympathetic to people who feel like they've lost "their" Zelda. I mean, I sorta feel that way too, but that's not the fault of TOTK which is very much its own thing. Instead of playing it hoping it's a game it's not, I've learned to love it for what it is. I also think there's still some things from the older games they could add in without breaking the flow of the open world, but TOTK is definitely an encouraging sign for the series' future.
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I fully agree, though I also think that with the game being bigger than ever, Nintendo really ought to pay more attention to accessibility. I can empathize with @Hailinel ‘s friend with regards to being frankly, overwhelmed by botw / totk. As someone who has played every other game in the lead up to them, I have many more points of reference that help make things a little bit more tolerable for me, but there are plenty of people in my life who are new to the series and intimidated.

Big picture, I think both games do a great job of encouraging player choice and crafting your own path. That much is evident by the sales success they’ve experienced. But, at the same time it would be great if all of the content within the games could be equally accessible in a more straightforward manner.
 
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xaszatm said:
…You do realize that concise and epic are literally opposites right?
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I think someone else summarised it perfectly. Yes it is linearity to a degree that keeps a more focused story. The classic dungeons with the item that opens new doors on the map.

It could be that I have a degree of nostalgia that attaches me to that formula.

People who say "you want a linear game" are misrepresenting it though. I think linearity is a spectrum, from literally on rails gameplay to TotK. Ocarina of time is in the middle of that spectrum.

Just to be clear. If I had to choose between having the botw formula or the old zelda formula I would hands down pick the botw one.

But I would be thrilled if I got both!
 
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Stairouais said:
Someone should update this meme with Aonouma ( and make it less racist)

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Or, Get This… One could just… let it die. Hated it then, and I hate it now. Let it die. It deserves no less, tbqh.
 
Stairouais said:
Someone should update this meme with Aonouma ( and make it less racist)

d92.jpg
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I hate the Zelda cycle meme so much, it was never true.
People liked TP at launch and opinion never soured.
People were generally mixed/disliked SS at launch and that's stayed the same since.
The only game to be received more favorably over time is WW.
 
Here’s the pipe dream:
Sander RX said:
  • Open-Air games as the new mainline
  • Remakes of past 3D Zeldas starting with Ocarina of Time
  • 2D Zelda
  • Occasional Hyrule Warriors or other type of spinoff, Cadence of Hyrule
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This is actually pretty damn realistic especially with The Switch 2 Zelda not likely launching till 2028/2029.

I actually would not be surprised if the next open air Zelda is also a launch game on Switch 3.

So we are defo going to need ports/remakes/spin offs on Switch 2.
 
Sander RX said:
Here’s the pipe dream:

  • Open-Air games as the new mainline
  • Remakes of past 3D Zeldas starting with Ocarina of Time
  • 2D Zelda
  • Occasional Hyrule Warriors or other type of spinoff, Cadence of Hyrule
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Agreed. Primarily want to see 2D Zelda make a proper return, the fact there hasn't been a new one since 2013 is a shame. BOTW/TOTK gobbling up the former 2D team was terrible resource management, I'd rather had seen both operate independently.
 
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terrornaught said:
I actually would not be surprised if the next open air Zelda is also a launch game on Switch 3.
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Only chance of this is if the Switch 2 is a flop. They’re gonna milk the successor just as much as the Switch, and they aren’t gonna wait 8 years to put out a new AAA Zelda.
 
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terrornaught said:
Here’s the pipe dream:

This is actually pretty damn realistic especially with The Switch 2 Zelda not likely launching till 2028/2029.

I actually would not be surprised if the next open air Zelda is also a launch game on Switch 3.

So we are defo going to need ports/remakes/spin offs on Switch 2.
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I hope the next one doesn't take that long. Legitimately don't understand how TOTK took 6+ years to make. For a same-engine sequel with heavy asset reuse it doesn't make sense, even with COVID it should have taken 4 years tops.

For perspective, SS->BOTW was only 5 years and 4 months, and they undoubtedly sat on the game for awhile for the Switch launch. TOTK somehow took longer despite being an iterative sequel.
 
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MrBones said:
I legitimately don't understand how TOTK took 6+ years to make. For a same-engine sequel with heavy asset reuse it doesn't make sense, even with COVID it should have taken 4 years tops.

For perspective, SS->BOTW was only 5 years and 4 months, and they undoubtedly sat on the game for awhile for the Switch launch. TOTK somehow took longer despite being an iterative sequel.
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Debugging Reverse and Fuse alone took 1.5 years.
 
takriel said:
At this point I just don't know what you people even mean with traditional Zelda. What is it that TotK isn't able to give you that a traditional Zelda can?
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Simple, a Zelda game that isn’t grindy

I personally don’t even define it as “traditional Zelda”, I just feel like BOTW/TOTK’s take on non-linearity borrows too much from AAA open world games, while they could have rather expanded on the non-linearity that was already present in some of their own games. Now these discussions always go in circles due to either fallacies, moving goalposts or being stuck in random semantics like defining what’s a dungeon so I’ll just focus on answering your question and saying WHY people have this sentiment

So, getting new items and clearing dungeons is a big part of older Zeldas, it’s an easy metric to use to evaluate some of the games, people value those. Let’s set aside the question of linearity or what defines a dungeon or how good the puzzles were, let’s just look at why Zelda dungeons are well regarded and why they are a sound decision in game design. They are basically the culmination of each area that you visit. They have their themes, they give you a new item that basically gives you a new ability to help you progress not only through the dungeon but also through the game in general. They are also good levels on their own, Nintendo is pretty good at this level design thing. Each area having their unique challenge is naturally appealing.

Open air Zeldas only have four of those, each basically at the ends of the 80+ square kilometer map. You get all of your abilities at the start, so the few permanent upgrades you do get are stuff that basically makes navigating through the game more convenient. So when you’re engaging with the game outside of those four main areas, you just never reach the same climax you would with a usual Zelda dungeon. You get mostly breakable weapons or crafting materials, sometimes a part of an armor set. Heart Pieces were a memorable and distinct collectable, they weren’t dungeon items but they were usually associated with a more complicated task than getting more rupees. In BOTW/TOTK you have twice as many due to stamina upgrades, and you all get them in Shrines which are isolated puzzle rooms that share the same theme.

I think grindy is the best word to describe the issue, because these games are simply grindy in a way that Zelda has never been before. Complain all you want about segments that you didn’t like in past games because they were mandatory, but they are still less of a pacing issue than the repetition in BOTW’s structure. Exploration is meaningless without the proper context, that’s how the lack of uniquely themed dungeons and items hurts the games. This basically undermines the whole exploration, because what are you looking forward to in exploring a new area when you already know that Shrines look the same.

Here’s an example on how exactly it undermines exploration and makes your choices not have as much weight. So in BOTW you can go anywhere after the Great Plateau, the game leans you towards the Zora area. There you get the Zora Armor which makes you swim up waterfalls, one of the rare permanent upgrades in the game. Now let’s say you choose a different direction, you go to the Faron area. There’s waterfalls there, you don’t have the Zora Armor so you get up there by eating stamina meals and using baloons and whatnot. What’s the climax here, what do you get for bothering to go out of your way to get there rather than following a critical path? A shrine? A helmet that resists electricity? There’s just not enough that makes this part of the area stand out compared to say, the one that has a dungeon.

So far TOTK seems to have this same flaw. I’m enjoying it, I’m appreciating what’s new in that game: Ultrahand alone probably clears all Sheikah Slate abilities, it’s impressive how they made all this building and fusing work with a controller. I didn’t reach a main dungeon just yet, I’m out there doing towers and getting sidetracked by quests and such, the sky and depths are cool. I’m collecting a bunch of junk that slowly starts to come up. Yet, I’m just not reaching any climax after dozens of hours, you need to have more distinct areas and challenges out there outside of the four story dungeons. It’s just a grind, outside of the few armor that I found everything you collect you need a certain amount before it does something. The sidequests are better than in BOTW so far but they don’t feel like they make much lasting impact in the world, they were still mostly fetch quests, so far I haven’t seen anything similar to something like repairing the lighthouse in Wind Waker.

Therefore, a non-linear Zelda with a higher density of focused, themed level design as well as not being grindy would basically make everyone happy. They have all the solutions they need within the series itself, it had big MC scores before BOTW and plenty of additional concepts to explore. The person you quoted mentioned that they never even made a new traditional Zelda in HD. That’s a valid point, consider it for a second. While a game like TP got some flack for being formulaic, it never got enough credit for the unique and novel elements it had. Something like Snowpeak Ruins was pretty atypical for a Zelda dungeon, a lot thought it was just a pre-dungeon area, or took until they got the map to realize it was the dungeon. It had doors with knobs, it had friendly NPCs, you had to help them make soup. In SS, the line between field and dungeon is even more blurred, pretty much every area has almost dungeon-like level design, very dense game overall. Imagine if they expaned upon that with hardware that isn’t a Gamecube or two. They could have made a non-linear game and moved on from the “three dungeons at the start” structure in a different way.

Sadly, for fans of the game that tells you to use your imagination, a lot seem to react in the most uninspired way. “Open world sold way more, it won GOTY, just move on, it’s not for you, Zelda fans are the new Paper Mario fans, insert random Nintendo series can replace old 3D Zelda, next one should be BOTW3 with underwater exploration, next 2D Zeldas can be remakes (no new original game since 18 years btw)”. I know the thread title is sensationalist (the most recent Zelda will always be the template, he also said that for SS), I know that people that have BOTW on top feel validated but that’s no reason to make these strange narratives. None of the people that prefer other 3D Zeldas want to take away what BOTW/TOTK added to the series, it really boils down to the structure, especially Shrines. Hell, all of the BOTW superfans that followed the artbook leaked suggested stuff like the game having 9+ dungeons, didn’t those end up just being the glyphs? Point is, people in general are enthusiastic about this idea. No need to nitpick on anyone that overall prefers other Zeldas due to disliking BOTW’s structure because instead of dropping walls of text like me, they just go shorthand and say stuff like “traditional Zelda, dungeons, permanent upgrades, not my Zelda anymore”. It’s simply fact that the grindiness and structure of BOTW has introduced problems that the series never had at all. Thankfully they can only look as far as in their own games to address those
 
Yoshifan31 said:
What’s the climax here, what do you get for bothering to go out of your way to get there rather than following a critical path?
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The joy of exploration. You're arguing for extrinsic rewards while most people who don't follow the critical path are after intrinsic rewards.

Yoshifan31 said:
Nintendo is pretty good at this level design thing
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You are correct, Tears of the Kingdom has some top-tier world design.
 
Sander RX said:
Here’s the pipe dream:

  • Open-Air games as the new mainline
  • Remakes of past 3D Zeldas starting with Ocarina of Time
  • 2D Zelda
  • Occasional Hyrule Warriors or other type of spinoff, Cadence of Hyrule
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There would be no point in remaking OoT especially is people want something like FF7R; which at that point you may as well make a new game. Giving it all the bells & whistles treatment is something I don’t really see. I can see them doing some work on the 3DS version but not much else. Realistically it is gonna be:
  1. Mainline freeform games
  2. Spin-offs
  3. Ports of TP/WW/OoT/MM
  4. Maybe remakes in the vein of Link’s Awakening
  5. Brand new 2D games
There really aren’t resources to spare for a new 2D Zelda outside of farming it out to Grezzo. The question becomes are they experienced enough & have enough people for that type of project for this type of standalone project HD project.
MrBones said:
I hope the next one doesn't take that long. Legitimately don't understand how TOTK took 6+ years to make. For a same-engine sequel with heavy asset reuse it doesn't make sense, even with COVID it should have taken 4 years tops.

For perspective, SS->BOTW was only 5 years and 4 months, and they undoubtedly sat on the game for awhile for the Switch launch. TOTK somehow took longer despite being an iterative sequel.
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Just because it is same engine & has asset reuse does not necessarily mean it would make it shorter. Between scale & ambition in mechanics I can very much see how it would take six years with a COVID interlude.

And, no the Zelda team really wasn’t able to sit on BOTW. Since they immediately had to do the Switch port after finishing the WiiU version. According to them the widow was really tight, about six months, & one of the reasons the game had little optimization to it.
 
As the guy that doesn’t look at Wind Waker favorably as much as everyone else I hope the next Zelda game isn’t similar to it….. lol
 
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