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TV Doctor Who ST | This Thread Is Bigger On The Inside

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EvilChameleon

EvilChameleon

Rockenberg Enthusiast
Pronouns
he/him
The past and present...
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...collide with the future...
Ncuti2.jpg

...in the Famiboards Doctor Who ST!
​
A thread I've been wanting to start for so long is finally here! I got really motivated today after hearing this news, that every episode (that isn't lost) of Doctor Who, both classic and new, is coming to the BBC iPlayer forever. No word yet on if this will be replicated in some way in the States, but as of right now, the status quo of classic episodes on Britbox and new episodes on Max stays the same.

As for the future, we still have the 60th anniversary specials coming up in November (date still to be announced), followed by the first episode starring Ncuti Gatwa on Christmas, and then series 14 sometime in 2024. Disney+ will have all these episodes in the United States and most of the world, and of course the BBC iPlayer in the UK.
 
So many memories of watching this (in true Dr Who cliche) from behind the sofa with my brother. The Daleks were always my favourite monsters, I remember a Sylvester McCoy one (Remembrance of the Daleks?) where they encounter one in a basement. We were all ‘just run upstairs!’ but no, apparently the hyper-advanced villains had finally installed hover technology! Scary for about an episode or two until Sophie Aldred beat one up with a baseball bat, anyway.
 
It strikes me that the former Doctors image, I assume based on an official promo image, still keeps David Tennant front and center. Which, to be fair, is probably accurate.

I need to catch up on the show, I fell off a bit during Peter Capaldi’s tenure since I cut cable in general at the time, but with streaming and what not, it’s probably a good time to get back in.
 
WestEgg said:
It strikes me that the former Doctors image, I assume based on an official promo image, still keeps David Tennant front and center. Which, to be fair, is probably accurate.

I need to catch up on the show, I fell off a bit during Peter Capaldi’s tenure since I cut cable in general at the time, but with streaming and what not, it’s probably a good time to get back in.
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In fairness he's on there twice. The him that's the star of the new episodes is front and center, but classic him is fourth from the right
 
Oooh, I love Doctor Who. Thanks for the thread EC! I watched it religiously since the reboot, but fell off during Jodie’s run. I still need to catch up with her second and third series.

Did I hear a rumor about the show coming to Disney Plus in the states, or am I making that up?
 
Red Monster said:
Did I hear a rumor about the show coming to Disney Plus in the states, or am I making that up?
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That's the plan! Starting with the 60th anniversary special and the Gatwa season(s). No word on whether or not the classic series or pre-60th new series stuff will be uploaded like on iPlayer, though.
 
I'm cold on the decision of bringing back David Tennant and Davies. Doctor Who should look to the future, not the past.

But at the same time, I 100% trust Davies, especially after his recent miniseries, and Tennant is probably a populist move to win the general audience back before the Gatwa era. I'm happy I can finally look forward to new, good Doctor Who episodes after the awful Chibnall seasons, and this is what really matters.

I hope that with Gatwa some of the writers who emerged during the Capaldi era (Dollard, Matthieson, Harness) will be given a second chance, and maybe one of them might become showrunner in the future, who knows.
 
Red Monster said:
Oooh, I love Doctor Who. Thanks for the thread EC! I watched it religiously since the reboot, but fell off during Jodie’s run. I still need to catch up with her second and third series.
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Jodie's best episodes are The Haunting Of Villa Diodati and every special.
 
I didn’t vibe with Thirteen’s supporting cast. Three companions is a lot, and I didn’t really like any of them.
 
Gingerbread Man said:
I'm cold on the decision of bringing back David Tennant and Davies. Doctor Who should look to the future, not the past.

But at the same time, I 100% trust Davies, especially after his recent miniseries, and Tennant is probably a populist move to win the general audience back before the Gatwa era. I'm happy I can finally look forward to new, good Doctor Who episodes after the awful Chibnall seasons, and this is what really matters.
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It's definitely a populist move but it's worth noting that anniversary years are always a bit backward-looking. I actually found the manner in which they brought Tennant back (and the restraint in not bringing back all of the recent Doctors) to actually be a nice twist for the anniversary, the "Doctor meets their past self" is always fun but I like seeing them try new things as well
Gingerbread Man said:
I hope that with Gatwa some of the writers who emerged during the Capaldi era (Dollard, Matthieson, Harness) will be given a second chance, and maybe one of them might become showrunner in the future, who knows.
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Agreed!
 
WestEgg said:
I do not.
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Tennant is the star of the upcoming anniversary specials, and AFAIK the only familiar Doctor to be showing up in them. If you intend to catch up before then, I won't give away the circumstances, but otherwise:

He's technically not reprising his role as the 10th Doctor, but is instead the new 14th Doctor (though personality wise, he's shown to be the same and is aware of but confused by the repeat). 13 regenerated into him. He'll regenerate into the 15th by the time the specials are over.

Catherine Tate is reprising her role as Donna as well.
 
Genuinely extremely excited for the new era, Chibnall seemed like he had some wonderful ideas, but the execution was either utterly boring (Series 11), absolutely insane fan wankery in the worst way (Series 12) or an amazing idea just executed terribly (Flux and the specials sans Power). I'm extremely curious what Davies is planning on doing with the whole Timeless Child arc, I think it's too much connected with series 12 and 13 to just simply ignore. But honestly, if it's never mentioned again, I'm fine with it as well 🤭
 
Completed my repeat watchthrough of NuWho last week, after starting around a year ago. A few series really impressed me this time round - I liked them before but the quality of episodes was much higher in 3, 8 and 10 than I remembered. Capaldi's era in general is quite recent for sure but it really stands up still I think.

And come November I'll be watching a few of the classics when they drop on iPlayer for sure. Been a long time since I've seen some of those when I had them on VHS!

EvilChameleon said:
New theme tune has been released!

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The whole concert is available on BBC Sounds for those who have access. Nice selection of pieces.

www.bbc.co.uk

Radio 2 Celebrates Doctor Who at 60 - Doctor Who @ 60: A Musical Celebration - BBC Sounds

Jo Whiley presents this unique performance from Cardiff's Hoddinott Hall.
www.bbc.co.uk www.bbc.co.uk
 
I'm already madly in love with Ncuti's theme song and liking Ruby's too.


Never been big on RTD's era of the show but damn after Chibnall made me lose almost all interest in New Who, I'm super excited for everything coming November and following :D
 
doodlewhizz said:
Capaldi's era in general is quite recent for sure but it really stands up still I think.
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For sure. 8 also stood up better than I remembered on a rewatch, and I already adored 9 and 10.

I'm curious what your thoughts on series 9 are since you didn't mention it. Do you find it to be the weakest of Capaldi's run, or did you leave it out due to already remembering it as pretty good?

oomoepoo said:
Never been big on RTD's era of the show but damn after Chibnall made me lose almost all interest in New Who, I'm super excited for everything coming November and following :D
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I'm intrigued because my largest issues with RTD's era is that it could just get a little too... on the nose with the cheesy-ness delivery and humor, often feeling like it was slipping from a family show to a kids show, if you know what I mean. But it's hard for me to imagine a reversion to that tone now, 9 seasons and 14 years removed from it.
 
Jersh said:
I'm intrigued because my largest issues with RTD's era is that it could just get a little too... on the nose with the cheesy-ness delivery and humor, often feeling like it was slipping from a family show to a kids show, if you know what I mean. But it's hard for me to imagine a reversion to that tone now, 9 seasons and 14 years removed from it.
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Definitely agree on it being a bit too cheesy and on the nose. His era was always very big with everything, including the melodrama, imho :D

Also, I firmly believe that Davies has matured as writer over the last decade and that he wouldn't have taken the job (again) if he'd just wanted to do a rehash of the first four seasons.
 
Jersh said:
For sure. 8 also stood up better than I remembered on a rewatch, and I already adored 9 and 10.

I'm curious what your thoughts on series 9 are since you didn't mention it. Do you find it to be the weakest of Capaldi's run, or did you leave it out due to already remembering it as pretty good?
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More a case that I already really liked season 9. My rose tinted specs did forget about the Ashildr/Me stories and Sleep No More which I found pretty weak this time through but overall it's a great season. I feel the run from 8-10 is underappreciated a little bit, partly due to people getting tired of Moffat, being put off by the new personality and, in the UK at least, awful scheduling which meant a timeslot that kept changing every week depending on live sport coverage and Strictly Come Dancing specials.

If I had to rank them it'd be something like this. Caveat that I think all seasons have at least something good about them, even in the Chibnall era. Definitely a shame that Jodie didn't get better writing as well, feels bad putting all her seasons so low but she didn't have a lot to work with.

Some bright moments but generally a bit boring
13. Season 13
12. Season 12
11. Season 11

The pretty good ones, but still with some ropey moments
10. Season 2
9. Season 7
8. Season 1
7. Season 6

The ones I actively look forward to rewatching
6. Season 10
5. Season 3
4. Season 8
3. Season 4
2. Season 9
1. Season 5
 
doodlewhizz said:
More a case that I already really liked season 9. My rose tinted specs did forget about the Ashildr/Me stories and Sleep No More which I found pretty weak this time through but overall it's a great season. I feel the run from 8-10 is underappreciated a little bit, partly due to people getting tired of Moffat, being put off by the new personality and, in the UK at least, awful scheduling which meant a timeslot that kept changing every week depending on live sport coverage and Strictly Come Dancing specials.
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Season 9 is probably my favorite overall, which is why I was curious. And Capaldi's run is probably my favorite of any Doctor. An interesting bit with Ashildr; I actually think I appreciated her more on a rewatch than I did the first time.

doodlewhizz said:
The ones I actively look forward to rewatching
6. Season 10
5. Season 3
4. Season 8
3. Season 4
2. Season 9
1. Season 5
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Oh - I vibe with this a lot. There's probably a couple things I'd switch around, but I think this is overall pretty solid, both as the top tier and the general order of it.
 
I think Capaldi might be my favorite Doctor. I fell in love with Tennant and with Smith, but Capaldi IS the Doctor for me.
 
Capaldi is probably my favourite Doctor of the new show (tied with Smith) but I think his tenure was a bit awkward. Clara should've probably left after S8 and I still don't like the harsh tone changes between his seasons (kinda early Hartnell-like in 8, then rock'n'roll grandpa in 9 and then something like late Hartnell in 10), always felt like they were overreacting to some very loud complaints or got executive meddled.

That said, I adore his "Am I a good man?"-arc and Missy's redemption made the Master an actually interesting character beyond "The Doctor but evil". Heaven Sent is one of the all-time greatest episodes of the show and that Zygon Inversion speech probably lives rent free in my head just next to Smith's "Because I AM TALKING" and I was very sad to see him go.
 
The Capaldi era was really something special, something very unique which probably won't happen again. Reasons I love it:
  • The actors. Capaldi is an incredible actor, and a de-facto co-writer of all the episodes. If you read some of the scripts they released, you can see he sometimes ignored or emphasized the directions given to the Doctor. He was also very collaborative towards his co-stars, writers and directors -- you can see this in interviews where he often name-dropped the name of "regular", non-Moffat writers, and on-screen where he gave Coleman and Mackie all the room to breath they needed. On their parts, Coleman, Mackie and Gomez provided stellar performance, on-par with Capaldi. A great team with a great chemistry.
  • The writers. After the rough later Smith years, Moffat was at his best during the Capaldi era. Listen, Dark Water / Death in Heaven, Heaven Sent, Hell Bent, World Enough and Times / The Doctor Falls are some of the best episodes the series ever had. Some of them might have some rough parts, but overall, this is an amazing run, and we also have the various pilot episodes and the Christmas specials, which ranged from "good" to "great!". But the Capaldi era is also defined by the new writers Moffat brought on bord -- Mathieson, Dollard, and Harness really produced some masterpieces. I also found the late-career Gatiss of the Capaldi era far more interesting than the RTD/Smith Gatiss, and even less exciting episodes by other writers were at worst "dull" yet with some interesting elements (... with one exception, see below).
  • Rachel Talalay. Having directed all of his finale, Rachel Talalay is one of the major creative figure of the Capaldi era, and I'm very, very happy RTD brought her back for the Tennant specials! El Sandifer remarked that Talalay style is not to have a style, following the script directions without any sort of bravado. She's a perfect match for this late-career Moffat, who learned all the possible narrative and timey-wimey tricks in the Smith era and he's ready to use them without overtly emphasizing their cleverness. Heavent Sent is the testament of the Capaldi-Moffat-Talalay team.
  • And the rest of the crew. It's clear that everybody who worked on the Capaldi era really tried their best. The team figured out how to make the cheap look good, and the days of embarassing aliens and cardboard settings are definitely long gone. Some tweaks to the S7 TARDIS set really gave a new personality to that console room, which under Smith was IMHO not very good.
  • Themes. Torchwood was often advertised as "adult Doctor Who". But the "adultness" of Torchwood was just some blood, sex and swear. The Capaldi era is a proper "adult Doctor Who". It is a version of Doctor Who which is still recognizably Doctor Who, and which works for children, yet with some adult subtexts -- Listen question the definition of "monster", Dark Water and World Enough and Time emphasizes the body horror of being a cybermen, Kill the Moon highlights that trusting a stranger is a better way than taking up arms against them, the Zygon episodes are about integration and the horror of war... And in general, the Doctor and his companions are real people having real conflicts. The Clara scene with the TARDIS keys from Dark Water is more "adult" than everything from Torchwood.
  • Doctor Who? Perhaps the strongest theme of the Capaldi run. Who is the Doctor? Moffat came up with this idea during the 50th anniversary, but the results can only be seen in the Capaldi era. The general idea of "The Doctor" is re-conceptualized, as a role the Time Lord we know and love plays, as a promise he tries to follow. In this sense, sometimes Capaldi doesn't play the Doctor. His character sometimes speaks of "the Doctor" in third person, in the S9 finale Clara asks him "what happened to the Doctor", and he claims that "he cannot be the Doctor all the time". The character portrayed by Capaldi has flaws, and yes, he sometimes breaks the promise. But he tries to be the Doctor, he tries to be a good man, and this is what really matter -- in the very second episode of the era, Clara says that "I think you try to be [a good man] and I think that's probably the point". And in Extremis, the simulation of the Doctor flatout says that "You don't have to be real to be the Doctor. Long as you never give up. Long as you always trick the bad guys into their own traps.". Since "the Doctor" is a promise, everybody can the Doctor. Being the Doctor is a set of values someones has to follow moment by moment, a path of actions someone has to take. Clara manages to be a good Doctor in Flatline, and S9 is all about her, the Magician's Apprentice, becoming a Doctor on her own right, with a TARDIS and a companion.

The only (extremly minor) flaws I can think of:
  • The Lie of the Land. This is the worst episode of the era, and probably one of the worst episodes of the series. To be fair, the poor director gave everything to save it, but he couldn't. If we take the episode literally, the Doctor left the entire of Planet Earth under an alien dictatorship with concetration camps just to prove the trust of his companion, and at the end of the episode nothing is resetted, but the human race just forgets everything (including the camps? the deads???). The Monks behaviour is inconsistent with the previous episodes. Bill is literally used as a laughing stock. Missy is wasted (I don't know how they wasted the whole "Missy and Bill team up to free a brainwashed Doctor after an alien invasion" set up). Bad episodes happen, but this episode was supposed to close a mid-series trilogy, which started with a classic and had a very good second act. The Lie of the Land rectroactively ruins Extremis and (especially) The Pyramid at the End of the World. Reading what happened behind the scenes leads to forgiving the production team (Moffat's mother was dying during Pyramid and Lie production), but still... what a waste.
  • The Doctor's character arc. Do not get me wrong, the Doctor's arc from S8 to S10 works really well. We went from "I'm against the hugging" to three-person hugh with Bill and Nardole. We went from the Doctor refusing to be given orders, to the Doctor asking Bill what he has to do. The "duty of care" line introduced in Kill the Moon was passed from Clara to the Doctor. There is a character growth, and some strong themes. However, I felt there was something missing between S8 and S9. Last Christmas and the whole Davros thing in the Magician's Apprentice didn't really sell the Doctor's transformation to me. The toxic, hybrid relationship with Clara... maybe, but still, I think they could have handled the transition better.
  • A missing season. Some fans think that Clara stayed too long. I don't. S9 requires us to already be very familiar with the Doctor's companion (Clara is absent or far from the Doctor in most episodes), and to have a companion who can be on equal standing with the Doctor. S9 absolutely required Clara and Coleman, and since it was an incredible season, it's hard to argue against that decision. At the same time, it is true that the Capaldi era is very Clara-centric -- it's Clara show, with a Bill coda. I think the Capaldi era needed another season with Bill, or with fan-favorite Shona. But obviously you can't produce a whole quality season out of nowhere, they probably thought about it in 2016 (when they released the spin-off Class), but couldn't. That said, it is often better to end a series leaving fans wanting for more, instead of having the writing team resorting to C-tier ideas (see Sherlock season 4).


My season ranking:

  1. S8 & S9. Well, I said everything above.
  2. S1 & S5. These seasons are a bit rough around the edges. You can see there is a new production team who doesn't 100% know what they are doing, but really believe in what they are doing and in the strength of their ideas. Each episode is at least "good" (yeah, even the Slitheen ones have amazing character moments), and both series emphasize the Doctor - companion relationship. They manage to create something new, out of ashes of Classic Who (S1) or of RTD Who (S5).
  3. S10. In his final season, Moffat attempts to reinvent a formula he had already made his own, with the knowledge that everything would be swept away by his successor a year later. The amazing thing is that he succeeds, with some of the best episodes and characters in the series. The team, however, is tired, and they are starting to resort to "lesser" ideas. Which are still very, very good.
  4. S6. In an ideal world this is the best series. In our world, chaos, lack of organization and behind-the-scene drama prevented it from reaching its full potential. Early episodes have very, very hing moments, and the standalone ones are remarkably good. Let's Kill Hitler and The Wedding of River Song don't work though, but it's hard to blame Moffat when they were forced to film first-draft scripts. You can still see snippets of what it could have been here and there (and in Sherlock S2/S3, where the whole "main character fakes his death" thing is done better).
  5. S4. Tennant and Donna have a great chemistry, and they can save even dull episodes. Luckily for us, at this point the RTD Team knows how to make good Who, and most episodes are at worst serviceable, with at least three masterpieces, a Clue episode, and the most iconic series finale.
  6. S3. You have Blink and Human Nature. But also the worst RTD finale (though the Master is very good), the Dalek human hybrid and in general a very weak first part of the series. Martha doesn't really work as a character, and the Doctor's obsession with Rose is tiring.
  7. S7. I almost forgot S7. S7 is neither here nor there. It is not bad, but it is not good. The first part with the Ponds is very forgettable, except for Manhattan. The Clara episodes were a bit shallow, not because of Clara, but because... they seemed like run-of-the-mill Doctor Who, by people who already wrote Doctor Who repeteadly. The series finale is a glorified teaser for the 50th anniversay. Hide and Akhaten are the only noteworthy episodes (and they were by a new writer). In this series, Moffat also experimented with the pace of the narrative, but these experiments IMHO didn't work with his episodes here. He would later use them in Day and (more sparsely) in the Capaldi era with better results. S7 is a bit of a "bridge" between the Smith era and the Capaldi era, and in this sense it works, but it doesn't have a proper identity.
  8. S2. I think it was hard for the writers to realize the "Doctor in love" concept. The Doctor is just an idiot when Rose is around (compare the Doctor-Rose to Doctor-River, or Doctor-Clara, and you can see the concept realized much better later). Still, the episodes written by Davies or Moffat are very good, and they almost got the Cybermen right.
  9. S11 / S12 / S13. I watched some episodes, then I quit. I really hope the Timeless Children lore is never referenced again, that thing is very, very close to ruin the Doctor's character.
 
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oomoepoo said:
Can't view the second one but the first one is one of my favourites too! Smith has a lot of those moments where he goes from carefree to "I will end you if you hurt my friends" within seconds :D
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Second one is 12 going apeshit on Ashildr saying he would "rain hell on you for the rest of time" and saying he would enlist the Cybermen and Daleks to do it.
 
EvilChameleon said:
Second one is 12 going apeshit on Ashildr saying he would "rain hell on you for the rest of time" and saying he would enlist the Cybermen and Daleks to do it.
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"The Doctor's no longer here, you are stuck with me!"- he screams in a very angry scottish accent.
 
The love shown in here for Capaldi warms my cockles, glad to know his incarnation is very much appreciated here!

I'm interested in who everyone's first Doctor is here, and if it also matches with your favourite? I thought this would be a simple question for me but thinking back on it, maybe not.

I grew up in the wilderness years but I distinctly remember a few one-offs - my older siblings had VHS tapes for a few episodes across various incarnations including Pertwee, Davidson and McCoy but I only remember bits and pieces of watching them and could not tell you what order it was in. Then there was the TV Movie which was a memorable experience at the time but very much a one and done, not really enough to form an attachment. The first one that I actually spent a season with though would have been Ecclestone in the first season of the revival. So I think any of those could count really.
 
Thank fuck, Doctor Who is back to being fun.

Last 3 series have been so boring and lacked that doctor who fun.

I hope whenever Jodie comes back for a special, her version will get the justice her doctor needed.
 
Ah, we have an official Doctor Who thread? Fantastic! Shame on me for not thinking about making one myself.
doodlewhizz said:
I'm interested in who everyone's first Doctor is here, and if it also matches with your favourite?
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My first Doctor was Eccleston and my favourite is... oof, that's tough. It's a toss-up between McGann and Capaldi. Maybe. Pretty much any time I watch, listen or even recall a good story featuring another Doctor I would be like "Man, Doctor Who with <insert name here> as the Doctor is absolutely brilliant, isn't it?" and change my "allegiance" on the spot.
The Giant said:
I hope whenever Jodie comes back for a special, her version will get the justice her doctor needed.
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With any luck, one day she'll work with Big Finish and they will do for her Doctor what they did for Colin Baker's; give her incarnation a string of brilliant stories that help everyone realize that the problem with her tenure wasn't the person portraying the Doctor.
 
doodlewhizz said:
I'm interested in who everyone's first Doctor is here, and if it also matches with your favourite? I thought this would be a simple question for me but thinking back on it, maybe not.
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For the new show, my first Doctor was Smith and he's still my favourite, tied with Capaldi. For the classic show, my first exposure was McCoy but while I have a very soft spot for him, my favourites are Pertwee and McGann. But I'm kind of in the same camp as Cucufate, this can and will change on the spot :D

I think you'll always have a soft spot for the incarnation that introduced you to the show, though.
 
Also, having a DW thread means there's a place on this forum where I can justifiably drop stuff like this:

Yay!
 
Capaldi is my favorite, with Series 9 being my favorite. Series 10 had a lot to love, but I think it fell slightly short due to being a companion introduction AND farewell season, plus having that half-baked monk arc in the middle. Series 8 was good but had a few stinkers - Kill The Moon and the forest one are some of the worst episodes they've done in NuWho.
Shadow said:
I'm extremely curious what Davies is planning on doing with the whole Timeless Child arc, I think it's too much connected with series 12 and 13 to just simply ignore. But honestly, if it's never mentioned again, I'm fine with it as well 🤭
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"It was all a dream!"
 
hologram said:
"It was all a dream!"
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A trick by the Toymaker.

Seriously though, I don't think it will ever be mentioned again in the foreseeable future. Or maybe it's gonna be explained (away) in the anniversary special? Though if Davies wants to get lapsed fans back on board and grow the audience come season 14, I think it'd be wise to not do a deep dive into a convoluted plot thread that arguably had its origin in the middle of the wilderness years (and was dumb back then too) :LOL:
 
"Who was that, Doctor?!"

"The Master... once my best friend, now there's nothing he likes more than plunging my life into chaos. One time, he almost convinced me that I was the origin of my entire species! Imagine that!"

Something like that (except penned by someone who can write natural-sounding dialogue). The Timeless Children thing is probably going to be like the "I'm half-human" revelation back then; it will be mentioned occasionally... but most of the time it will be either to mock it or to try to fanwank it away.
 
I am all in for the comeback of Doctor Who!

I watched everything of New Who except for most stuff after Orphan 55. Like that episode was the point where I was asking myself why I should even care. Though I watched the last special with Jodie which was ok.

The Tennant Specials and the next Series seem promising so I am really looking forward to it.
 
hologram said:
Capaldi is my favorite, with Series 9 being my favorite. Series 10 had a lot to love, but I think it fell slightly short due to being a companion introduction AND farewell season, plus having that half-baked monk arc in the middle. Series 8 was good but had a few stinkers - Kill The Moon and the forest one are some of the worst episodes they've done in NuWho.

"It was all a dream!"
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Kill the Moon to me was a great episode, but I understand it might be hard to appreciate.

First of all, you need to accept the "moon is a egg" premise. To me, Doctor Who is not sci-fi series, more like... magical science with a inherent silliness, so I don't have any problem with such a premise. Capaldi's smile while he says "the moon is an egg", followed by the incredulous silence of everyone, else also sells the concept. But again, I can see it is not a straightforward premise for all the audience.

Then you have the whole abortion metaphor, which was 100% unintended. Yes, we have several female characters talking about killing a young lifeform, but as the episode writer notes, the various "ABORT" signs referred to the abortion of the mission to kill the moon, so in a way they referred to abort the supposed abortion. It doesn't really work as a metaphor. The intended reading of the episode is that trusting a strange, unknown and weird lifeform is better than being wary of their intention and killing it. It's a beautiful message.

Probably if they had a women editor telling the writer to change a handful of lines and supervising the production, we wouldn't have the message so misunderstood.

Cucufate said:
"Who was that, Doctor?!"

"The Master... once my best friend, now there's nothing he likes more than plunging my life into chaos. One time, he almost convinced me that I was the origin of my entire species! Imagine that!"

Something like that (except penned by someone who can write natural-sounding dialogue). The Timeless Children thing is probably going to be like the "I'm half-human" revelation back then; it will be mentioned occasionally... but most of the time it will be either to mock it or to try to fanwank it away.
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My headcanon is that the Master was the Timeless Children, and Tecteun was just messing with the Doctor in S13. Martin Doctor is a Season 6B Doctor between Troughton and Pertween working for the CIA, who at the end of her contract was granted a new regeneration and had her memory erased.

Was this the intended reading? No, but screw the intended reading -- it's awful, and didn't really make any sense anyway. This saves most of what was shown on-screen, and actually creates an interesting premise (the Doctor has a bit of the Master inside them!).
 
"I'm half human on my mother's side" is the perfect analogy to the Timeless Children. Just ignore everything surrounding it and never mention any element of it ever again.

Also, for something more postive: Have a slightly underappreciated Seventh Doctor moment, which kinda fits with EvilChameleon's "Don't mess with the Doctor"-moments :D

 
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hologram said:
"It was all a dream!"
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In all fairness, no one of the main cast ever saw the Ruth Doctor, so this can a 100% be done and make sense within the context as The Master just fucking with the Doc. Which would in character for them, so if he goes that direction, cool!
 
Kill The Moon is the only episode I skip when doing rewatches because I very much dislike Clara going "alright fuck off then Doc" at the end of the episode and then just... having a change of heart by the end of the very next episode even though 12 does much of the same secretive "I know something you don't" stuff.
 
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Gingerbread Man said:
Kill the Moon to me was a great episode, but I understand it might be hard to appreciate.

First of all, you need to accept the "moon is a egg" premise. To me, Doctor Who is not sci-fi series, more like... magical science with a inherent silliness, so I don't have any problem with such a premise. Capaldi's smile while he says "the moon is an egg", followed by the incredulous silence of everyone, else also sells the concept. But again, I can see it is not a straightforward premise for all the audience.

Then you have the whole abortion metaphor, which was 100% unintended. Yes, we have several female characters talking about killing a young lifeform, but as the episode writer notes, the various "ABORT" signs referred to the abortion of the mission to kill the moon, so in a way they referred to abort the supposed abortion. It doesn't really work as a metaphor. The intended reading of the episode is that trusting a strange, unknown and weird lifeform is better than being wary of their intention and killing it. It's a beautiful message.

Probably if they had a women editor telling the writer to change a handful of lines and supervising the production, we wouldn't have the message so misunderstood.
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Obviously Doctor Who requires some heavy suspension of disbelief, but for me it was just a bit too much. The moon is an egg - which no one knew apparently, including the Doctor - and when it hatches the new lifeform immediately lays a new identical egg in one of the laziest "everything returns to normal" resets they've ever done. I might have accepted it if the surrounding episode was better, but it was awful. Aside from how bad the abortion metaphor was - intended or not - the Doctor just leaving for half the episode was really poorly done, and the idea that it needs to be humanity who makes the decision kinda falls apart when the decision is ultimately made by Clara, who is not from that time period. I dunno. I just hated it lol
Gingerbread Man said:
My headcanon is that the Master was the Timeless Children, and Tecteun was just messing with the Doctor in S13. Martin Doctor is a Season 6B Doctor between Troughton and Pertween working for the CIA, who at the end of her contract was granted a new regeneration and had her memory erased.

Was this the intended reading? No, but screw the intended reading -- it's awful, and didn't really make any sense anyway. This saves most of what was shown on-screen, and actually creates an interesting premise (the Doctor has a bit of the Master inside them!).
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One of the (many) problem with Chibnall's run was the like... flippancy he treated the existing lore with. Davies destroyed Galifrey off-screen, but spent basically his entire first run having the Doctor reckon with that decision and reality. Moffat spent the entire 50th anniversary decision undoing that decision in (IMO) a careful, narratively and emotionally satisfying manner. Meanwhile, Chibnall has the Master destroy Galifrey to *checks notes* make the Doctor a little bit sadder in one finale, then not really think about it much more. Similarly, Moffat added a new, previously unseen incarnation of the Doctor, again for the 50th anniversary celebration, and likely because Eccleston did not want to return. But he cast an extremely well-respected actor and introduced him as the very final twist of Series 7, as if to acknowledge that this was a big deal and a large disruption to existing canon. Chibnall? Introduces a new, previously unseen incarnation of the Doctor in a random mid-season episode, and then introduces countless more later to serve a very poorly thought-out finale plot.

I'm not saying the writers need to have this reverence for the continuity, but I feel like large retcons should serve a purpose beyond... actually, I'm not sure what purpose Chibnall's served, lol
Shadow said:
In all fairness, no one of the main cast ever saw the Ruth Doctor, so this can a 100% be done and make sense within the context as The Master just fucking with the Doc. Which would in character for them, so if he goes that direction, cool!
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Ha, true
 
The weird anti-abortion subtext didn't even really occur to me when first watching Kill the Moon, just upon a rewatch it kinda dawned on me that, even if it's not intentional, that it just comes off as kinda icky in that regard. My main pet peeve back then was that they marketed this as some sort of base under siege/"spiders invade the moon" horror-like story and then got rid of said spiders within the first act. And then the Doctor just runs off to who knows where to let Clara and the other woman discuss what to do... only for Clara to then decide on her own anyway. It's, imho, just a poorly structured episode, even before accounting for all the other stuff.

I agree that (modern) DW is basically Clarke's third law incarnate in that its very soft approach to sci-fi makes it indistinguishable from a fairy tale, but even then there's (willing) suspension of disbelief and then there's "the moon is an egg and when it hatches we immediately get a new moon egg with the same properties", it's just too much for me personally. The only reason I don't consider it the worst of Capaldi's episodes is that Sleep No More and that forest episode exist :LOL:

hologram said:
I'm not saying the writers need to have this reverence for the continuity, but I feel like large retcons should serve a purpose beyond... actually, I'm not sure what purpose Chibnall's served, lol
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The cynic in me says "to have people actually talk about the show again" and not just in the sense of "I really wish they'd give Whittalker more scripts that aren't rubbish"
 
doodlewhizz said:
The love shown in here for Capaldi warms my cockles, glad to know his incarnation is very much appreciated here!

I'm interested in who everyone's first Doctor is here, and if it also matches with your favourite? I thought this would be a simple question for me but thinking back on it, maybe not.

I grew up in the wilderness years but I distinctly remember a few one-offs - my older siblings had VHS tapes for a few episodes across various incarnations including Pertwee, Davidson and McCoy but I only remember bits and pieces of watching them and could not tell you what order it was in. Then there was the TV Movie which was a memorable experience at the time but very much a one and done, not really enough to form an attachment. The first one that I actually spent a season with though would have been Ecclestone in the first season of the revival. So I think any of those could count really.
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Guilty! My first was Tennant, and despite how good all the others in the reboot era have been he’s still my favourite. The quality of his episodes can get wildly inconsistent, and I can’t argue with a lot of the criticisms thrown at the RTD era but I just still love watching him as the doctor. Probably helps that season 4 is my favourite season of Doctor Who. Donna and Wilf are my favourite companions too.

Still super dubious about bringing him back for the specials but I really hope RTD proves me wrong.
 
Genuinely absolutely shocked that after the shittier waiting periods of the Chibby era, we're seemingly back to getting a series every year.
 
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