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Spoiler Bayonetta 3 Spoiler Thread
- Thread starter big lantern ghost
- Start date
There are sooooooo many cutscenes in this game
Tye
All-around Nintendo enjoyer
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I’m surprised there aren’t more posts here… Just beat the game tonight and was hoping to find some juicy discussion about the story, but there hasn’t even been a single post in this thread since the game actually released (in my time zone, at least)…
So, uh, is the implication now that Bayonetta and Bayonetta 2 take place in alternate universes??
Also, I don’t understand what’s up with Rodin. Like, if there’s supposed to be only one Rodin in the multiverse, then how is he helping all these Bayonettas at the same time? And why doesn’t he know more about what’s going on at the beginning of the game?
So, uh, is the implication now that Bayonetta and Bayonetta 2 take place in alternate universes??
Also, I don’t understand what’s up with Rodin. Like, if there’s supposed to be only one Rodin in the multiverse, then how is he helping all these Bayonettas at the same time? And why doesn’t he know more about what’s going on at the beginning of the game?
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Zalman
Stuck on a different planet
I still have no idea how to organize my thoughts on this.
I'm not huge on the ending. The romance felt out of nowhere and I never really warmed up to Viola.
I guess Nintendo already greenlit or have the intention to greenlight Bayonetta 4, otherwise I don't see them allowing it to say "to be continued". With that in mind, I also wonder how the heck Platinum convinced Nintendo to be on board with that. Removing the star of the show from the spotlight is a massive risk for a series that's already struggling to justify its existence from a business perspective.
Despite my issues, it's still one of my favorite games of the year.
I'm not huge on the ending. The romance felt out of nowhere and I never really warmed up to Viola.
I guess Nintendo already greenlit or have the intention to greenlight Bayonetta 4, otherwise I don't see them allowing it to say "to be continued". With that in mind, I also wonder how the heck Platinum convinced Nintendo to be on board with that. Removing the star of the show from the spotlight is a massive risk for a series that's already struggling to justify its existence from a business perspective.
Despite my issues, it's still one of my favorite games of the year.
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I think its because people are still playing it.
But yeah I too understand that Bayo 1 and 2 are different ones, and it was cool that even the UI changed in the last fight when you are usign Bayo 1.
As for the story, well it's interesting how they don't really explain anything important like the homunculus and Sigurd, arch adam /eve (though it's kinda self explanatory), Lukaon or how even B1/B2 are capable of exist even when their universes were destroyed, which pretty much sums to B3 saying "because my truth". They really went all the way with "we must save what's left, no time to explain"
Also liked the Terminator references with the homunculi doign the thumb up dying in lava, and that the Sigurd that helps Viola at the beginning is named Connor (which also implies there are good Sigurds)
Tye
All-around Nintendo enjoyer
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I don’t understand how that works, ‘cause Bayonetta and Bayonetta 2 were very clearly within the same universe, and they’re so heavily interlinked that you can’t really separate them into different universes like that…
And what was the UI change? I must have missed that in the heat of the moment, lol.
Yeah, I feel like this game really needs, well, a Bayonetta 4 to complete its narrative, much like how Bayonetta 2 completed and perfectly complemented the original Bayonetta’s story.
Where is it stated that Sigurd is named Connor in the beginning, though? Viola calls him Sigurd there, not Conner…
I largely liked the game, it’s in my top ten for the year despite me not liking demon summoning much, but I gotta rant about that ending fresh off it.
The fight with Singularity took forever and had way too many moments that looked like it was finally over only to be haha we are still going and going and going. Some of those moments were cool too like summoning all the Bayonetta’s and controlling the original Bayonetta. I would have gladly taken most of the possible off ramps to the final ending with Bayonetta dying, but not really because Rodin mentions Viola’s Dad like he is still alive and then everyone dances afterward. I knew there’d be a reset because that’s how multiverse stories work, but that was agonizing at times to get there. Typically I like the “it mattered for them though” moments in these stories, but I didn’t care for Luka having to save the day and then the romance. It was a different Bayonetta than 1 and 2, which I think was a smart decision for going this direction since we can say the Bayonettas we love wouldn’t do that (and I otherwise adored this Bayonetta, she was great!), but it ended the Bayonetta trilogy on a low note for me especially if Viola is supposed to take over.
Also, uh wow, way to sell Viola as replacing Bayonetta in this game. I was starting to warm up to her in the Paris chapter and then she basically disappears from the story. Her final battle was anticlimactic and then she becomes so catastrophically clumsy, more than the main game in those final scenes and even takes crap from Enzo!? The former butt of all jokes in this universe?? Uhhh yeah…that was a choice…If her gameplay in Bayonetta 4 resembles her gameplay here too, yeah y’all can keep that one Platinum.
The fight with Singularity took forever and had way too many moments that looked like it was finally over only to be haha we are still going and going and going. Some of those moments were cool too like summoning all the Bayonetta’s and controlling the original Bayonetta. I would have gladly taken most of the possible off ramps to the final ending with Bayonetta dying, but not really because Rodin mentions Viola’s Dad like he is still alive and then everyone dances afterward. I knew there’d be a reset because that’s how multiverse stories work, but that was agonizing at times to get there. Typically I like the “it mattered for them though” moments in these stories, but I didn’t care for Luka having to save the day and then the romance. It was a different Bayonetta than 1 and 2, which I think was a smart decision for going this direction since we can say the Bayonettas we love wouldn’t do that (and I otherwise adored this Bayonetta, she was great!), but it ended the Bayonetta trilogy on a low note for me especially if Viola is supposed to take over.
Also, uh wow, way to sell Viola as replacing Bayonetta in this game. I was starting to warm up to her in the Paris chapter and then she basically disappears from the story. Her final battle was anticlimactic and then she becomes so catastrophically clumsy, more than the main game in those final scenes and even takes crap from Enzo!? The former butt of all jokes in this universe?? Uhhh yeah…that was a choice…If her gameplay in Bayonetta 4 resembles her gameplay here too, yeah y’all can keep that one Platinum.
Some stuff I really loved to balance out my last post:
Chapter 3 Yo Yo and Spider bit (my favorite part of the game)
New Weapons like the Yo Yo
Significantly expanded exploration and platforming puzzles
The extra fight stages for collecting the animals
Big end of multiverse section boss fights between huge monsters
The singing in chapter 12
The Werewolf fights with Bayonetta
The very final dance with everyone
Generally, the third Bayonetta. Might be my favorite of the three. (Not multiverse Bayonettas, the one we control in this game)
Chapter 3 Yo Yo and Spider bit (my favorite part of the game)
New Weapons like the Yo Yo
Significantly expanded exploration and platforming puzzles
The extra fight stages for collecting the animals
Big end of multiverse section boss fights between huge monsters
The singing in chapter 12
The Werewolf fights with Bayonetta
The very final dance with everyone
Generally, the third Bayonetta. Might be my favorite of the three. (Not multiverse Bayonettas, the one we control in this game)
I finished the story a couple of days ago, but I'm far from done with this game 
It's everything I expected and more, the combat system is the best it's ever been, Demons are a great addition that makes the number of possibilities explode and the new weapons are absolute cu-rah-zyyyy!!!! I only used the guns, hammer and yoyos in my first playthrough so that I could learn them properly, right now I'm trying the mic and train and having a blast as well. And I'm very intrigued about Abracadabra and the ClockTower demon, they're next in my list.
Level design is very good, there are some flaws here and there like the forced walking sections or the sand parts in the desert, but overall I love how much exploration there is, how many different activities you're doing, how the level and challenges make you use the new mobility options...This was the biggest flaw in DMCV for me and Bayo3 has passed with flying colors. If we didn't have a Bloody Palace mode where we can just focus on combat I would've thought different, but as we have the Witch Trials mode it is just perfect.
The story was BAD, I wasn't expecting anything good and I really don't care much for it, but man it is bad...We don't know where the bad guy came from, the whole Luca subplot could've been removed as it left more questions than answers and a proper rival could've been used instead, the final boss lacked any personality at all (after Balder and Jubileus in 1, both B2 and B3 have missed the mark)...It would've been nice a cutscene where the cloudy face transformed into the boss that we're going to fight, just to give some continuity. What's with the constellation mark Viola and Luka have? Where did the bad guy get all his minions? Where does he come from? I know there are files in the game that explain all this, but this is very basic information that should've been addressed in the main story cutscenes. Like Astral Chain, this is a very anime-y story that does a lot of things because it may be cool and misterious but then completely forgets about them. But again, it is why I expected and why I didn't understand things like the Polygon reviewer getting so upset by the story: You know Platinum 's game's stories are the lowest quality of shit, if you end up disappointed by one of them it's no one's fault but yours for putting your hopes where they should never have been.
A small change I would've loved is to tie the skill unlocks to in-game actions, like it's done for the highest-tier Demon Slave special actions that you need to perform 10 times before they unlock. Sometimes I would unlock too much stuff at once and become overwhelmed, completely forgetting about some moves. Forcing you to use a new move 10 times before unlocking the next one would've helped with the learning process (though it may have been too much with how many weapons and skills there are).
IMHO overall Bayo3 has the best from 1 & 2 and then improves on both, specially where it counts the most: Amazing combat system and crazy weapon selection. The queen is back!
It's everything I expected and more, the combat system is the best it's ever been, Demons are a great addition that makes the number of possibilities explode and the new weapons are absolute cu-rah-zyyyy!!!! I only used the guns, hammer and yoyos in my first playthrough so that I could learn them properly, right now I'm trying the mic and train and having a blast as well. And I'm very intrigued about Abracadabra and the ClockTower demon, they're next in my list.Level design is very good, there are some flaws here and there like the forced walking sections or the sand parts in the desert, but overall I love how much exploration there is, how many different activities you're doing, how the level and challenges make you use the new mobility options...This was the biggest flaw in DMCV for me and Bayo3 has passed with flying colors. If we didn't have a Bloody Palace mode where we can just focus on combat I would've thought different, but as we have the Witch Trials mode it is just perfect.
The story was BAD, I wasn't expecting anything good and I really don't care much for it, but man it is bad...We don't know where the bad guy came from, the whole Luca subplot could've been removed as it left more questions than answers and a proper rival could've been used instead, the final boss lacked any personality at all (after Balder and Jubileus in 1, both B2 and B3 have missed the mark)...It would've been nice a cutscene where the cloudy face transformed into the boss that we're going to fight, just to give some continuity. What's with the constellation mark Viola and Luka have? Where did the bad guy get all his minions? Where does he come from? I know there are files in the game that explain all this, but this is very basic information that should've been addressed in the main story cutscenes. Like Astral Chain, this is a very anime-y story that does a lot of things because it may be cool and misterious but then completely forgets about them. But again, it is why I expected and why I didn't understand things like the Polygon reviewer getting so upset by the story: You know Platinum 's game's stories are the lowest quality of shit, if you end up disappointed by one of them it's no one's fault but yours for putting your hopes where they should never have been.
A small change I would've loved is to tie the skill unlocks to in-game actions, like it's done for the highest-tier Demon Slave special actions that you need to perform 10 times before they unlock. Sometimes I would unlock too much stuff at once and become overwhelmed, completely forgetting about some moves. Forcing you to use a new move 10 times before unlocking the next one would've helped with the learning process (though it may have been too much with how many weapons and skills there are).
IMHO overall Bayo3 has the best from 1 & 2 and then improves on both, specially where it counts the most: Amazing combat system and crazy weapon selection. The queen is back!
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They can really do any explanation because multiverses. I treated as Bayo 1as Platinum only Bayo, and Bayo 2 s Nintendo Bayo lol. You can say there is a point in Bayo 1 where history diverses and one goes to bayo 2 and the other one doesnt I guess. As for the UI the combo and the life bar changes.
As for Connord Siggurd is in the bio. Singularity is Midmeyers Sigurd. The bio also kinda explains Rodan saying he doesn't have counterparts because heaven and hell stuff
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Par the course, they expect you to read the various log book entries on the "Archives" tab in order to fill in the gaps the actual plot doesn't elaborate there.
For example, "Characters" lists the Sigurd that Viola knew as "Connor Sigurd", while "Midmyers Sigurd" is the guy that Jeanne "liberates" before he revealed himself to be the stinker known as Singularity.
Additionally, this is the ONLY place where you get a bit more insight on who/what "Lukaon" is as the King of the Fairies, and why the hell Luka (and thus his variant's daughter, Viola) were starting to manifest Fairy-based powers as more universes were being wiped out.
Like even if I was starting to predict that things were going in this direction (why else would Viola's sword be named after the Shakespearian Queen Mab?), hiding these details in lore entries, instead of doing a bit more to spell it out on screen, just doesn't lend itself well to a comprehensive narrative.
And I haven't even gotten to exploring "The Book", yet...
My overall theory regarding Viola is that she really is Kamiya's "Take 2" on his Dante (aka the one from the original DMC, and would've been "Tony Redgrave" in another time and place where it remained "RE4"). She took mostly a backseat in this game that serves as her introduction, and we bore witness to her going through some sort of "awkward teenage phase" at the moment, but when she comes back, I expect Viola to have grown into the role and matured. Dante was like 28 when we were introduced to him, and I wouldn't be surprised if that's when we next see Ms. Redgrave.
Additionally, there's a lot of other things I picked out as a longtime DMC fan (and still holds the original game with a special place in my heart). Let's compare Viola and Tony Redgrave, shall we?
1) Lost parents due to the machinations of a mad, utterly evil god-like entity (Mundus/Singularity)
2) Main/trademark weapon is a sword with a Demon in it (Alastor/Mab Katana)
3) Said Demon is also described and shown as being our hero's "real pal" (Alastor/Cheshire)
4) Inherits supernatural bloodline powers from their father (Demon blood from Sparda/Fairy blood from Luka), which allows them to temporarily transform into a powered-up state
5) Mother, however, probably had more of an effect on their upbringing (Dante was raised by a human mother, Viola raised in the Umbra ways by her Cereza)
6) Has a penchant for being run through with swords/other sharp objects, to the point that now it's just a means for getting a power-up
7) "Name's the same" (Tony Redgrave/Viola Redgrave)
8) In addition to the variety of other DMC-esque moves that are already present, Viola brings back a take on another classic that is "Roundtrip"
9) As cool as they are, they're not without their endearing, dorky sides. Kamiya's Dante has been portrayed as losing his clothes to Enzo in Poker and getting kicked out of the house by his girlfriend, among other things. And we've SEEN how Viola is.
Now, Viola looks to be possibly our new lead and heir to a "storied legacy to a legendary warrior", just like Dante was when he was starting out.
...I suppose it's all fine as long as we don't find out Viola's got a sinister twin sibling out there, somewhere out there! LOL
Tye
All-around Nintendo enjoyer
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I guess, but I feel like the whole multiverse thing kinda ruins the interconnected plot of the first two games. For Bayonetta 2 to take place in another universe, the events of the first game have to also happen in that universe (and vice versa, since you can’t have the events of Bayonetta without the events of Bayonetta 2), which I guess can happen if they’re going with the “infinite universes so anything can happen” thing (though it raises some questions, like are Loki/Loptr also omnipresent across all universes in the World of Chaos like residents of Paradiso and Inferno—plus the Eyes of the World—are?), but then that kind of defeats the point of the plot of the first game with Balder taking the young Cereza (that it’s implied we play as in Bayonetta 3) out of time to spend time with her older self from that universe in order to awaken her Left Eye after she’s brought back to her own time and grows up stronger and not being sealed away for 500 years. The whole purpose of Balder’s elaborate time displacement scheme was to have a version of Cereza from another universe awaken her Left Eye so that it would also be awakened in the Cereza of that Balder’s universe (since the Eyes of the World are omnipresent and affected by changes in any universe, as confirmed by Kamiya) so that he could enact his plan to resurrect Jubileus, but when they open up the can of worms of there being infinite alternate universes with any number of which having very similar events taking place, there’s no reason for Balder to have done his whole time displacement plan in the first place because with infinite universe, there would surely be one where Cereza had awoken her Left Eye without any involvement from Balder, so her Left Eye should have just…awoken in all universes once that happened first in one of them. The execution of this multiverse stuff just seems so sloppy, unfortunately, which is disappointing when the previous game was the exact opposite—Bayonetta 2 cleanly tied up loose ends from the first game and neatly tied the two together, while Bayonetta 3 just kinda throws that out and makes everything messier. That’s why I feel like the game really needs a Bayonetta 4 to be to it what Bayonetta 2 was to the first game, but I also feel like that’s unlikely to happen, unfortunately…
As for Connord Siggurd is in the bio. Singularity is Midmeyers Sigurd. The bio also kinda explains Rodan saying he doesn't have counterparts because heaven and hell stuff
And okay, I haven’t checked out all the bios yet; I should get around to reading those sometime. I knew about Rodin not having counterparts due to being from outside the World of Chaos, but that’s why I was saying that I don’t understand what’s up with him—if there’s only one Rodin and he’s able to travel between any of these infinite universes, how is he also able to be at the Gates of Hell helping all these versions of Bayonetta across the countless universes at the same time?? The same question applies to any of the Infernal Demons, actually—how can countless Bayonettas be summoning the same demons at the same time? Like, at the end of the game when the three Bayonettas fuse, three versions of Madama Butterfly are being summoned at once for Wicked Weaves, but that shouldn’t be able to happen since there should only be one Madama Butterfly in existence, as per the game’s lore. The game even goes out of its way to not feature demons that have been canonically killed off in another universe, since it throws the bonus Alruna weapon obtained from beating Alraune behind a non-canon Phenomenal Remnant because Alraune shouldn’t exist in any universe anymore after being killed by Bayonetta and turned into a weapon by Rodin in Bayonetta 2.
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Formula Zero
Octorok
The gameplay more than delivered imo
I also think the story was good, in a sense that it got a reaction out of me wich can't be said for Bayonetta 1 and 2 stories
it was cool seeing multiple Bayonettas doing badass shit then dying, it was easy to feel sorry for them wich made the story at least entertaining in the middle part
I would praise the ending for the same reason actually, Bayonetta did everything she was supposed to do an more then died tragically with a call back to the drawbacks of summoning demons, it helps that I don't care much for the implications and how it will effect the future of the serie, on it's own it was fun
I also think on the scale of how it made sense, it wasn't absurd to the point of annoyance as far as video games storytelling goes
Bayonettas combining was plausible because Luka did exactly that earlier
how they appeared in the first place, I think a plausible explanation is they were released alongside the other Bayos but weren't extinguished with them, probably because they were released after Bayonetta random shot that happened after the other Bayos returned
I also think the story was good, in a sense that it got a reaction out of me wich can't be said for Bayonetta 1 and 2 stories
it was cool seeing multiple Bayonettas doing badass shit then dying, it was easy to feel sorry for them wich made the story at least entertaining in the middle part
I would praise the ending for the same reason actually, Bayonetta did everything she was supposed to do an more then died tragically with a call back to the drawbacks of summoning demons, it helps that I don't care much for the implications and how it will effect the future of the serie, on it's own it was fun
I also think on the scale of how it made sense, it wasn't absurd to the point of annoyance as far as video games storytelling goes
Bayonettas combining was plausible because Luka did exactly that earlier
how they appeared in the first place, I think a plausible explanation is they were released alongside the other Bayos but weren't extinguished with them, probably because they were released after Bayonetta random shot that happened after the other Bayos returned
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Yup, I think this is the more plausible explanation lol
Thanks for the detailed write up! I caught some of those things, but definitely not all of them. I don’t think it really changes my opinion, but I’ll take the Dante character arc stuff as hope she’ll be better in the next game at least.
…
Has anyone played in both English and Japanese? I don’t think this would change much about how I view the character since I only play these games in English, but Viola’s Japanese VA is Miyuki Sawashiro who is very charismatic. Just kind of wondering if she reads a bit differently between English and Japanese.
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Fun fact: It wouldn't be Sawashiro's first time in the franchise, either.
She also played Lil Cereza in Bloody Fate and Bayonetta 1's JP dub (originally debuting in the Wii U port). The irony of playing two different characters that would call Bayonetta "Mummy" is something I can't help but wonder if it was intentional!
Oh, and no problem!
Tye
All-around Nintendo enjoyer
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I just read those myself. I think I’m even more confused now, though… I thought the implication was that the Bayonetta we play as in Bayonetta 3 was actually the time displaced Cereza from first game rather than the one we play as in the first two games, because of the fact that the descriptions for Scarborough Fair and Love is Blue say that Rodin made those for some other Bayonetta in the multiverse, and “Bayo 1” from the ending of this game calling that Bayonetta “Little One” as she did to the younger Cereza in the first game. But if those Bayonettas are supposed to be from very similar universes and have “walked an almost identical path” as the Bayonetta we play as in this game, then this Bayonetta can’t be the time displaced Cereza, since her history would be very different given that she wouldn’t have been sealed away for 500 years. So…if this Bayonetta isn’t the time displaced Cereza after all, then who is she? She can’t be the Bayonetta from the first two games, either, because the guns from the first two games apparently weren’t ever made for this Bayonetta. …Does this essentially confirm that the Bayonettas we play as in all three games are actually all different multiverse variants of each other? After all, each game starts with Bayonetta using normal hand guns that break and are replaced by a new set from Rodin, which in hindsight is kind of odd because why wouldn’t she just continue to use the guns Rodin made for her from the previous game? But if the first two games are supposed to take place in different (but very similar) universes with different variants of Bayonetta, that really makes a mess of the interconnected plot of the first two games like I said in my last post…
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That's how I understood it from the beggining, Viola being transported to a different universe and we playing as a Bayo that's different from1 and 2 (I thought the Bayo dying at the beggining was the one we knew from 1 and/or 2). And really all the references like "litte one" are as @Yazmat says with platinum going "here have some fanservice cake!"
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That's where it ends. Unless there are more secret keys to be found, there is nothing more. don't know if they are going to release an update for that or it's just a teaser
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Well, I guess that's the thing. Just because she wasn't sealed away doesn't mean that "Brave!Cereza's" entire history would be THAT different. It would just mean that instead of events playing out exactly as we saw in the events of Bayonetta 1's main campaign (and perhaps 2's, as well), there likely would've been some differences along the way.
For example: Bayonetta's cold-open intro basically has you playing the part of Brave!Cereza and Jeanne fighting off the angels and surviving the Witch Hunts together. The very same game's epilogue ends with the two witches of this particular timeline mirroring their "Brave-verse" counterparts after crushing the remnants of Jubileus' statue, as if to seemingly say "sure, it took them a bit longer to get to this point in this timeline, thanks to Cereza being sealed away + losing her memories and Jeanne being brainwashed by a guy that's containing the evil side of an ancient deity within him...but the gal pals are back together, anyway!"
Thus, the "almost identical path", in my opinion. If we go along with this theory, it would even explain why certain things like Luka calling Bayo "Cerezita" are things in this timeline (to the point that B3!Bayo makes it sound like this was a thing that she had let him get away with for quite some time!), where they weren't before in what we've seen previously. It's easier to swallow if we assume this is a timeline where Luka's one-sided antagonistic relationship with Cereza never happened here. Perhaps, in this timeline, Antonio Redgrave still perished as a result of his investigation into Balder and Ithavoll Group, but there was no way for Luka to initially pin the blame of his father's death on Cereza, and the two met through different and perhaps much more amicable circumstances.
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I feel like I’m going crazy
I can’t be the only one who doesn’t think Bayo is completely gone forever right
Going through the Reddit spoiler thread is just fucking DOUR.
Like is anyone else genuinely not worried by the ending?? It’s sad ending yeah, and it’s signaling that Bayo is passing the torch to her daughter, but I feel like it’s kinda insane to think the character is gone for good? I just don’t see them doing that.
I can’t be the only one who doesn’t think Bayo is completely gone forever right
Going through the Reddit spoiler thread is just fucking DOUR.
Like is anyone else genuinely not worried by the ending?? It’s sad ending yeah, and it’s signaling that Bayo is passing the torch to her daughter, but I feel like it’s kinda insane to think the character is gone for good? I just don’t see them doing that.
I think she is alive in the ending since the timeline/universe reset to some extent and if Luka is alive why wouldn’t Bayonetta be considering they died together prior. She also danced in the ending so she’s probably fine.
I think the real fear is she has been replaced and the focus of the series is on Viola now with the to be continued in the next generation line.
However after playing the post game and encountering that storybook that also has a to be continued message and how this game just said Bayonetta and Bayonetta 2 were different universes I think there’s hope they could just make a Bayonetta 4 about a different Bayonetta again and that to be continued next gen is more like Bayonetta 3’s story continues with Viola rather than that’s the new direction for the franchise.
JR436
Probably looks better in a dress.
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I like Reddit, but let's not pretend it isn't only a level above Twitter when it comes to discourse online.
Boyfriend
Bob-omb
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we never actually watched luka die, just get dragged down into inferno. rodin only mentions luka, and since he's got no issue traversing between the trinity of realities it seems like the more likely explanation is that bayonetta convergence happened and they're all dead, and the converged lukas are keeping watch over her for eternity to ensure she isn't devouered and viola's taken up the mantle of bayonetta under rodin tutelage and care
doesn't mean they can't just rewind time or jump into another timeline to undo any of this later since they've clearly set up the ability to do so, but for now it seems like this ending was intended to set up cereza passing the torch to viola
I think this is a "Zelda timeline" situation, where the fans try to find meaning in everything and the developers are just "let's make a game with a cool story!". I don't trust Platinum in being able to write a multiverse story that's not full of plotholes, they do it all the time. When trying to make sense of the story I think the right answer is always "whatever's the coolest" instead of "what seems more reasonable".
If this was GoW I would be ripping it a new one because in those games the story is the main point, but in Bayonetta gameplay is the main concept and the story is only there to present excuses for cool things to happen and not much more really....
In 3 games we've had time travel, multiverse shenanigans and even Jeanne returning from Inferno alive. I think Bayo4 may start with Viola as the MC, but if you think about the rule of cool that governs all creative decisions in Platinum Games, I bet that before chapter 5 we will already have unlocked B3 Bayo as a playable character.
Bayo's current combat system is the culmination of many years of evolution: Almost every game along the way has added new stuff or helped refine the formula, I don't think they're going to outright abandon it in their flagship title.
Yazmat
Tektite
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Not really, I think that Platinum will return her in the fourth installment, they'll just show a teaser, in which Viola will fight an unknown figure in the dark (just like in all previous teaser) that will turn into Bayonetta's silhouette.
The implication is pretty clearly supposed to be that we're playing as the same Bayonetta we've been playing as the whole time. The alternate Bayonettas with the 1 and 2 designs are stated to have walked a similar path to the main one, but the archives pretty clearly depict them as from alternate timelines.
I see no reason to think she isn't dead for real, but like, with Rodin around, she could still play a supporting role from Inferno. They could maybe even rework her into a summon.
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Tbh, even though they might want to focus on Viola going forward, I don't see a universe in which Cereza is not playable in Bayonetta 4. It will at the very least be a DMC4 affair, or maybe a DMC5 one.
Edit: Nobody liked "dead weight" at first either, from what I know. Give it time. If Nero can grow, Viola can too.
Edit: Nobody liked "dead weight" at first either, from what I know. Give it time. If Nero can grow, Viola can too.
Zalman
Stuck on a different planet
I'm sure Cereza will play some kind of role going forward, but the way they went out of their way to get rid of her, give Viola the Bayonetta name, and even state that it would continue in a "new generation" tells me they're serious about putting Viola in the spotlight, which I'm not super fond of. Ideally, the fourth game will take place after a timeskip and star a much more experienced Viola. But even then, it's hard to replace Cereza. She's such a unique character, both in terms of playstyle and personality.
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Looking back at it, it probably should have been obvious what they were setting for up when we first learned Viola would be a fully playable character in her own right during the game's story. Jeanne was never given that treatment. Not even this time around, where she is playable through the campaign, but even then her chapters are purposefully marked as side chapters and feature entirely different gameplay from the "main" game.
Tye
All-around Nintendo enjoyer
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I mean sure, but that’s still 500 years that would have played out very differently regardless of if the events that take place after those 500 years play out similarly. You’d think, if there are truly supposed to be infinite alternate realities with alternate Bayonettas, that they wouldn’t specifically say that the “Bayonetta 2” from the ending, “among all of Bayonetta’s counterparts,” “seems to have walked an almost identical path” as the one we play as if the playable one was supposed to be a Bayonetta that wasn’t sealed away for 500 years. That’s quite the difference when you factor in infinite Bayonettas where there should absolutely be one that was even more similar by having the same 500-year history prior to the events of the first game.
Also, when Luka calls Bayonetta Cerezita, he’s already been fused with all of his alternate reality counterparts (along with their memories, since he then knows who Viola is), hasn’t he? So him calling her that could be a result of that. But regardless, the game does seem to imply that this Bayonetta is indeed the time displaced Cereza from the first game in a number of other ways too; I previous said that the “Bayonetta 1” from the ending called her “Little One”, but I guess I misremembered that and what she actually says is “You didn’t cry while I was gone, did you?” and nudges her glasses with her gun, which is exactly what she does to the young Cereza in the first game. Plus Singularity says “You yourself are a woman out of time, are you not?” to her as well, further hinting that she is supposed to be the time displaced Cereza, and there’s the fact that her hairstyle evokes the young Cereza’s too.
Perhaps another explanation could be that, among the main playable Bayonettas from the three games, the only the Bayonetta we play as in the first game was sealed away for 500 years, while both the Bayonettas from the second and third games have a similar history to each other where neither of them were sealed away for 500 years like the one from the first game? That would explain why only the “Bayonetta 2” from the ending says “among all of Bayonetta’s counterparts, she seems to have walked an almost identical path” while the same isn’t said for “Bayonetta 1”.
Yeah, no, people always say this about Bayonetta but I don’t buy it at all. The story is clearly very important to the developers, and the story of the first two games were very solid and well thought out, with the second game’s story being particularly impressive with how it directly ties into the first game and explains/sets things up for that. Kamiya seems to have planned out a lot of this stuff in advance (as evident by something I’ll be bringing up later in this post in response to the next quote), and I’m sure the core of Bayonetta 3’s story was similarly decided some time in advance. I’m sure there are answers for things that are currently missing them, but they’re just not clear right now. Sure, some things may not have been fully thought through but I have no doubt that the majority of it absolutely was. The Bayonetta games are also much more narrative focused than the Zelda games, and their story is absolutely a higher priority to the developers because, unlike many Zelda games, the Bayonetta games are very closely tied together narratively so they can’t just slap a story on the game after the fact (not that that’s really a fair description of what happens with Zelda games, either, however)—they have to have the story largely planned out from the beginning because the set pieces they create for the game’s levels will heavily rely on it. They need to establish the world you’re exploring and the enemies you’re defeating first—but, of course, some fun stuff like how certain boss battles or level segments play out may be established later on in development. (Ironically, though, comparing the two series, the multiverse of the Zelda series is kind of handled a lot better than the multiverse of the Bayonetta series, I feel, lol. I guess it helps that the alternate universes don’t actually interact with each other in the Zelda series, though.)
The game heavily implies that this is the time displaced Cereza, though. As I said above, the “Bayonetta 1” from the ending says “You didn’t cry while I was gone, did you?” and nudges her glasses with her gun, which is exactly what she does to the young Cereza in the first game. Plus Singularity says “You yourself are a woman out of time, are you not?” to her as well, further hinting that she is supposed to be the time displaced Cereza, and there’s the fact that her hairstyle evokes the young Cereza’s too. Additionally, Luka calls her Cerezita as he did to the young Cereza from the first game, though that could potentially be due to him being given the memories of his alternate reality counterparts.
But the most clearly stated reason why the Bayonetta we play as in this game can’t be the same one we played as in the previous games is because the descriptions for Scarborough Fair and Love is Blue say that they were “crafted by Rodin for another Bayonetta” somewhere in the Multiverse. In other words, the Bayonetta we play as in this game never had those guns before, which means she can’t be the one we played as in the first two games.
But I’ve just been informed of even greater evidence of the three games all featuring different Bayonettas: the mole placements.
Not only do the β0, β1, β2, β3, and β4 variants all have different mole placements (or lack of a mole entirely, in the case of β0), but so do the Bayonetta 1, 2, and 3 variants, though the differences are very subtle. But they’re different nonetheless! And, incredibly, this minor detail seems to have been planned at least as far back as Bayonetta 2, since this isn’t only true for the Bayonetta models used in Bayonetta 3, but also for the original models used in the previous games as well!
So…yeah, it seems pretty clear that the intention is for each game to star an alternate Bayonetta. So it would appear that the “Bayonetta 1” and “Bayonetta 2” from the end of the game truly are the same Bayonettas we play as in their respective games, with the Bayonetta we play as in Bayonetta 3 being yet another, third variant. The big question, I guess, seems to be whether she’s truly supposed to be the time displaced Cereza from the first game or not.
Actually…thinking about it, and given my theory from above that both the Bayonettas from the second and third games may have not been sealed away for 500 years, I think it might be possible that not only is the Bayonetta from the third game indeed the time displaced Cereza from the first, but she may actually have appeared in all three games now. You see, the first two games both open with “Remembrance of Time” prologues that depict alternate events and feature a different Bayonetta than the one we play as throughout the rest of the game—in the first game, we play as a grown up time displaced Cereza fighting in the Witch Hunts alongside Jeanne. In the second game, however, it’s unknown exactly which Bayonetta we’re playing as, but it has to be a different one than the one we play throughout the rest of the game because the events shown there don’t play out the same later on in the game, and Kamiya has also confirmed that that was indeed an alternate universe. So…if the grown up time displaced Cereza (who is implied to be the one we play as in Bayonetta 3) did indeed walk “an almost identical path” as the Bayonetta from the second game as Bayonetta 3 claims, that means she would have also gone through the events of the second game as well, if not slightly differently—and that could be exactly what we’re seeing in the prologue to Bayonetta 2! EDIT: Er…wait…maybe not, actually, because that wouldn’t align with the third game stating that that Bayonetta never used Love is Blue, which is what the Bayonetta from the intro of the second game uses, so…never mind, lol. Unless we’re supposed to ignore that little detail, I guess. =P
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Perhaps so, but again, I guess it just depends on "how different" would those events be. For example, like you suggest later in your post...what if the "Bayonetta 2" that appeared was from the "Records of Time" timeline, and not the one that we experienced in Bayo2, itself? That would enable it to be a thing where perhaps Bayo3 experienced a similar route to what that Bayo2!variant experienced, but still be a bit different.
He was calling her "Cerezita" upon his introduction within the game, and even Bayo3!Cereza noted that "only her Luka would dare call her that".
So, again, I'm inclined to believe that it was something exclusive to this particular branch. He did got decidedly even more sentimental about both Cereza and Viola after the fusing, though!
Hell, you need not look any further than Kamiya's own "Let's Play" of the original game, where it was he who finally shed light on the whole thing about how sending lil Cereza to that past not only created a new timeline, but it was the whole crux of Balder's plot to awaken Bayo's Left Eye.
It's crazy, sure. It's not conveyed all that well, yes. But then again, anybody who played the likes of Okami wouldn't be but so surprised by this kind of thing.
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I have zero doubt Cereza is gonna be back in Bayonetta 4 if Platinum makes another one. I think they'll have Viola be the main character of the next game but they aren't going to do a franchise suicide of getting rid of the OG for good and only focusing on Viola. Cereza will probably be playable again midway through the game if I had to guess, similar to Nero and Dante's roles in DMC4.
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Yeah I think it's pretty clear that the Bayo in this game is meant to be a different one from the previous two. It's easy to get away with that considering one of the actual theories of quantum multiverse says that there are an infinite amount of universes for every possible decision any living thing can ever make.
So theoretically this Bayo can be from the universe where a hummingbird decided to hold in its fart for 2 seconds longer than that same hummingbird in the Bayo 2 universe.
So theoretically this Bayo can be from the universe where a hummingbird decided to hold in its fart for 2 seconds longer than that same hummingbird in the Bayo 2 universe.
Tye
All-around Nintendo enjoyer
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Yeah, I guess that could work either way, though since both Bayonettas we play as in the first two games are definitely not the same exact Bayonetta I’d imagine the simplest and likely intended explanation is that the two Bayonettas from the ending of Bayonetta 3 are the main ones we play as in their respective games, with the Records of Time Bayonetta from the second game being either the time displaced Cereza experiencing very similar events in her universe, or some other unknown Bayonetta variant for some reason. But I’m not sure that Bayonetta’s past of being sealed away for 500 years is even referenced at all in Bayonetta 2, and if it’s not then there’s no reason why either Bayonetta variant that appears in that game could have been not sealed away! EDIT: Never mind, looking into it, Bayonetta 2 definitely does reference that game’s Bayonetta losing her memory, so I dunno what’s up now, lol.
Ah, okay, I must have forgotten that he used that name earlier then!
I always thought that was pretty obvious from playing the game myself, since you clearly play as that time displaced Cereza in the game’s Records of Time prologue. But yeah, Kamiya has clearly put a ton of thought into these stories and has seemingly planned stuff out far in advance, so I’ll never understand why people say the story of the Bayonetta games isn’t important or isn’t a priority to the developers when that’s very clearly not the case.
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sneaky1999
Piranha Plant
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Just finished the game and yeah not here for this Violanetta crap. Idk what it is that they thought they did, but this is so bitter.
The game is amazing through and through though. Kept being surprised by all the demons and weapons
The game is amazing through and through though. Kept being surprised by all the demons and weapons
Belinda Blumenthal
Sales Director
I don’t know if that will have any bearing on that… at the end of Bayonetta 1 the angels join in the choreography which I suspect wasn’t canon.
Yeah, I don't think any of the "Let's Dance Boys" scenes are canon.
Vookatos
Like Like
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I can't get the game yet but my friend told me about the ending and I decided to check it out and what.
It's like three writers trying to do separate things. The final boss seems fine (although leans too heavy on interrupting you with another "Is it over?" tropey fake-loss), even if final attack is garbage, but then it just never ends.
It's like they WANTED to damage the brand. I guess I like that they remixed my favorite music piece from the trilogy but I don't think "look at this dead character dancing" is a good idea for a scene.
Viola, from what I've seen, also doesn't work as a replacement to Bayo. Bayonetta was unique in that she was a dominatrix lady, which you rarely see in games. She owned her sexuality. Viola's more like a Dante type, which there are a LOT of in video games. So you just pissed off the fans that were there for the main character by deciding on sacrificing her in a shitty way in a game series which already lacked any sort of emotional storytelling! Bayonetta's stories suck, they're only there to be fun and campy, much like Evil Dead 2 or Rocky Horror. Why would they decide to add a somber death scene is beyond me.
The only thing that could salvage all this is Viola saying "I'm coming to rescue you" to at least wink to the fans that Bayo isn't dead (and, I mean, Bayo 2 had the same situation), but then it would nullify the ending which already barely matters. Everyone's dead and everything's crap but nope here's new world only Bayonetta isn't here??
This might be the worst ending for a video game I've seen, but at least, much like, say, Mass Effect 3 end, it's so incredibly stupid that I laughed out loud multiple times.
What especially sucks now is that the ending was wasted on like 14 after-credits sequences so fans that want more Bayonetta (both game and character) won't get any answers for like 3-5 years.
It's like three writers trying to do separate things. The final boss seems fine (although leans too heavy on interrupting you with another "Is it over?" tropey fake-loss), even if final attack is garbage, but then it just never ends.
It's like they WANTED to damage the brand. I guess I like that they remixed my favorite music piece from the trilogy but I don't think "look at this dead character dancing" is a good idea for a scene.
Viola, from what I've seen, also doesn't work as a replacement to Bayo. Bayonetta was unique in that she was a dominatrix lady, which you rarely see in games. She owned her sexuality. Viola's more like a Dante type, which there are a LOT of in video games. So you just pissed off the fans that were there for the main character by deciding on sacrificing her in a shitty way in a game series which already lacked any sort of emotional storytelling! Bayonetta's stories suck, they're only there to be fun and campy, much like Evil Dead 2 or Rocky Horror. Why would they decide to add a somber death scene is beyond me.
The only thing that could salvage all this is Viola saying "I'm coming to rescue you" to at least wink to the fans that Bayo isn't dead (and, I mean, Bayo 2 had the same situation), but then it would nullify the ending which already barely matters. Everyone's dead and everything's crap but nope here's new world only Bayonetta isn't here??
This might be the worst ending for a video game I've seen, but at least, much like, say, Mass Effect 3 end, it's so incredibly stupid that I laughed out loud multiple times.
What especially sucks now is that the ending was wasted on like 14 after-credits sequences so fans that want more Bayonetta (both game and character) won't get any answers for like 3-5 years.
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skullwaker
Piranha Plant
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Bayonetta has to continue to be at least one of the main protags in Bayo 4. And if Viola returns they need to tweak her combat a lot and preferably make her more similar to Bayonetta herself.
But yeah, I like Bayonetta because of her personality, not just her gameplay style. Viola doesn’t hit the same notes for me so it would be disappointing to see her take over the main role.
The game was brilliant, but I’m a little cold on the ending itself because it feels tonally dissonant.
But yeah, I like Bayonetta because of her personality, not just her gameplay style. Viola doesn’t hit the same notes for me so it would be disappointing to see her take over the main role.
The game was brilliant, but I’m a little cold on the ending itself because it feels tonally dissonant.
Christo750
Source of the Right Arm
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I don't really hate the Luka/Bayo relationship. I actually like that they have a daughter and I like the story of them passing the torch. That being the ending is actually nice, if it was understood that the series is over. Platinum definitely needs to do some type of redesign or something if there's going to be a Bayonetta 4 and Viola's really going to be the star. Her gameplay wasn't great but it has room for improvement. Mostly, I cannot stand the corporate riot girl design. She looks like a character from Bleeding Edge.
The final bosses were neat but the big problem with multiverse stuff is the bigger you get the more disconnected you get from the parts that actually matter. This and the pacing of the cutscenes work against its bigger moments. Jeanne got killed in a quick cut and I felt very little. The alternate Bayos show up to help out during the fight against Singularity...in a cutscene. Bayonetta starts fighting bosses in cutscenes which kinda takes away from the spectacle of the fight once I gain control. It's only an immediate effect, and the fights themselves are still great. I just wish the game would've stopped having me watch it sooner.
I'm definitely not disappointed with the game as a whole; I pretty much loved my time with it. The Demon Slave mechanic is fucking spectacular; truly a slam dunk. I want to play through it again now and get some more platinum medals. I think a second playthrough will help solidify my enjoyment of it. It likely won't top Bayonetta 2 though.
The final bosses were neat but the big problem with multiverse stuff is the bigger you get the more disconnected you get from the parts that actually matter. This and the pacing of the cutscenes work against its bigger moments. Jeanne got killed in a quick cut and I felt very little. The alternate Bayos show up to help out during the fight against Singularity...in a cutscene. Bayonetta starts fighting bosses in cutscenes which kinda takes away from the spectacle of the fight once I gain control. It's only an immediate effect, and the fights themselves are still great. I just wish the game would've stopped having me watch it sooner.
I'm definitely not disappointed with the game as a whole; I pretty much loved my time with it. The Demon Slave mechanic is fucking spectacular; truly a slam dunk. I want to play through it again now and get some more platinum medals. I think a second playthrough will help solidify my enjoyment of it. It likely won't top Bayonetta 2 though.
