Discussion 10 years ago we were in the middle of arguing about Retro making "****ing Donkey Kong"

[MrBones]

Inundated by the entire sea composed of New Super Mario Bros. U and its DLC you mean? Or you're also including Rayman Legends in this massive sea of 2D platformers on Wii U?

Of course, as we now know, the Wii U would eventually end up inundated with 2D platformers by Nintendo with the releases of Woolly World and Mario Maker for a grand total of four 2D platformers. It'd take years for fans to play all of them.

Nintendo just had tons of 2D platformers on the Wii alongside even more on the 3DS.

 

[jnWake]

Nintendo just had tons of 2D platformers on the Wii alongside even more on the 3DS.

Ok, so on completely different platforms, one that had been dead for a couple years at that point.

 

[Dark Cloud]

Wii U Wii U Wii U Wii U Wii U

 

[TheSpaceBetween]

Yeah but people would say that literally regardless of whatever game it was. If it'd been Metroid instead, people would say it too.

I'd take the reality in which they did do Metroid or something else, then went back to DK, then continued on this current course - because that would give us one more game than this reality provides, and would've prevented both IPs from drying up, which each, at some point, sorta did.

Not so sure about that. Retro WANTED to be working on Tropical Freeze. If they were forced to work on something they weren't passionate about it wouldn't turn out as great.

The thing about this whole drama that still gets to me is that it really recontextualized the worth of Donkey Kong as a Nintendo IP in the Nintendo community afterwards. It no longer was seen as an important IP for Nintendo to keep around cause hey he's "just" a Mario character so go play Mario games instead. Even though Donkey Kong does deserve more respect (from fans and from Nintendo themselves) since it was a landmark series in Nintendo becoming a video game powerhouse at all.

People forget that Donkey Kong was in a really rough spot after Rare was sold to Microsoft. The franchise direction was aimless with tons of different spinoffs for the IP but none of them were clicking with audiences like a new DKC would (even though Jungle Beat is a great game) to the point that DK was losing its place as a popular series. Then we got DKC Returns which felt like a life line to save the series and it was incredibly well received on the Wii to where it felt like DK was finally back. So to see its immediate sequel get trashed as unimportant and then the franchise is discarded by Nintendo yet again is terribly frustrating.

I think a lot of it simply has to do if there's a development team or a high ranking producer that wants to work on the series. Retro didn't want to work on DK anymore, therefore, we hadn't seen a game in a while until someone else wanted to take up the reigns. The same thing happened with Metroid. Retro was ready to move on after Prime 3, and then Sakamoto lost interest after Other M.

 

[Dark Cloud]

I feel like ever since Metroid Prime 3, Retro has done whatever they’ve wanted to do. They wanted DKC. They wanted to do a sequel. Then they wanted to do what seems like a new IP and here they are today.

 

[MrBones]

Ok, so on completely different platforms, one that had been dead for a couple years at that point.

Yes? Market saturation still applies even if the platform is different. Consumer appetites don't instantly reset when a new system releases.

 

[jnWake]

Yes? Market saturation still applies even if the platform is different. Consumer appetites don't instantly reset when a new system releases.

K, let's look at this saturated market. These are the 2D platformers released by Nintendo from 2010 to 2013 (when DKCTF was announced):

• Kirby's Epic Yarn (2010)
• Donkey Kong Country Returns (2010)
• Kirby's Return To Dreamland (2011)
• New Super Mario Bros. 2 (2012)
• New Super Mario Bros. U (2012)
• Donkey Kong Country Returns 3D (2013)

6 games (2 of them being DKCR) from 3 franchises hardly feels like a saturated market, although I won't deny releasing 2 new NSMB games so close to each other was a very silly move, as was releasing DKCR3D so close to the announcement of DKCTF. I didn't include 3rd parties in here as the original argument was about Nintendo having way too many 2D platformers, which is clearly inaccurate. Even then, including 3rd parties wouldn't increase the number much as not many 3rd parties actually release platformers.

I'm, also, clearly ignoring indies here since the argument changes a lot including them. If the 2D platformer market being saturated by indies explains the backlash towards DKCTF by the Nintendo fanbase then people wouldn't have been hyped by Metroid Dread as 2D Metroidvania is a ridiculously saturated market thanks to indies as well. Similarly, people wouldn't get excited about the possibility of traditional Paper Mario returning if indies were to blame, as there's no shortages of RPGs in the market either.

 

[Kingdra91]

What I still don't get, how were people thinking retro would only do one dk game, especially after the success of dkcr?

I mean they made 3 excellent Metroid games and then Metroid fans are disappointed when they do 2 dk games??? In all honesty, I wanted a third one from Retro just to have a new modern dkc trilogy .

Maybe they will do another 2d one day, it all depends on Nintendo and what kind of dk game they make. Maybe they'll do the 3d ones and retro the 2d? We don't know, I'm just happy dk got his own fresh team at Nintendo now, which is going to be a game changer.

I hope we see something dk related in the next direct, showing both Metroid and dk would be hype!

 

[Chalphy]

The reaction was overblown of course, however the Wii U did have a large amount of cartoony games, and having Retro make another one didn't help diversify Nintendo's lineup. Back in 2013 the only games that really deviated from that style were Bayonetta 2 and Xenoblade X, and those were both still far from release.

 

[Dark Cloud]

The reaction was overblown of course, however the Wii U did have a large amount of cartoony games, and having Retro make another one didn't help diversify Nintendo's lineup. Back in 2013 the only games that really deviated from that style were Bayonetta 2 and Xenoblade X, and those were both still far from release.

That’s all people are saying. Everyone on every side can acknowledge how people overreacted way toooooo much over this. Hopefully, we won’t get that kind of negative reaction again.

 

[Sampdoria]

The initial bad reaction to Tropical Freeze got me so mad back in the day. Bunch of entitled babies.

 

[Bait02]

I think this is a good example of how much expectations play a large role in how a game is received (both critically and commercially).

 

[Maxrunner]

We have never actually moved past this:

Sony got its revenge, that "crap" still never appeared on a Nintendo console, meanwhile Super Castlevania 4 is on ps4 i think.....

 

[Shoulder]

Employees at Retro didn’t want to do another Metroid Prime game. This is on record. Some wanted to do something else and some felt like their ideas weren’t heard because the ideas came from the top, so they left. Also, Nintendo had a weaker system compared to the competition and some left because of that.

Yup. There’s a fantastic YT channel called Kiwi Talkz where this guy has interviewed several former members of Retro Studios, and while it is an awesome insight into the technology of the Prime games, plus the creativity at the time, it also showed how burned out they were.

And to your point regarding the Wii being the weaker system, Retro we’re excited at the prospect of using unified shaders, HD graphics, and whatever other secret sauce methods were on the horizon. And instead, Nintendo came out with a slightly more powerful GCN with a gimmicky new control scheme. They were very underwhelmed, and while some did stay on for DKC Returns before departing afterwards, others left right after Prime 3, and I think others even left before then.

 

[MrBones]

K, let's look at this saturated market. These are the 2D platformers released by Nintendo from 2010 to 2013 (when DKCTF was announced):

• Kirby's Epic Yarn (2010)
• Donkey Kong Country Returns (2010)
• Kirby's Return To Dreamland (2011)
• New Super Mario Bros. 2 (2012)
• New Super Mario Bros. U (2012)
• Donkey Kong Country Returns 3D (2013)

6 games (2 of them being DKCR) from 3 franchises hardly feels like a saturated market, although I won't deny releasing 2 new NSMB games so close to each other was a very silly move, as was releasing DKCR3D so close to the announcement of DKCTF. I didn't include 3rd parties in here as the original argument was about Nintendo having way too many 2D platformers, which is clearly inaccurate. Even then, including 3rd parties wouldn't increase the number much as not many 3rd parties actually release platformers.

I'm, also, clearly ignoring indies here since the argument changes a lot including them. If the 2D platformer market being saturated by indies explains the backlash towards DKCTF by the Nintendo fanbase then people wouldn't have been hyped by Metroid Dread as 2D Metroidvania is a ridiculously saturated market thanks to indies as well. Similarly, people wouldn't get excited about the possibility of traditional Paper Mario returning if indies were to blame, as there's no shortages of RPGs in the market either.

If you go back to 2009 you can include NSMB Wii, a wildly popular and played game. Also you're discounting all the additional 2D platformers that were announced by 2013 (Yoshi's New Island, Woolly World, Luigi U, Kirby Triple Deluxe, etc)

6+ games in 3 years (plus tons more known on the way) is saturation.

 

[N75]

I'm pretty convinced that a large part of the outrage at the announcement didn't even come from the Metroid fanbase per se, more like insecure Nintendo fans who wanted a "mature" big boy game rather than a silly ape game.

The obsession some people had for Retro to be Nintendo's Naughty Dog was real. Though that mentality hasn't disappeared entirely, it's thankfully dwindled.

 

[Chaos Theory]

Ah yes, the beginning of the Retro Studios banter era. Crazy to look back and think that everyone who was outraged about this was absolutely fucking right that it was a signifier of bad times to come, I suppose we shouldn't be too surprised that the die-hards never see reason.

After the Prime trilogy the studio should have been looking to expand to two teams but they instead went backwards, eventually so far that they stopped making games entirely. I'd still love to know what the fuck actually happened during this time, but I guess we never will.

 

[Lugia667]

The obsession some people had for Retro to be Nintendo's Naughty Dog was real. Though that mentality hasn't disappeared entirely, it's thankfully dwindled.

this was right in the middle of the naughty dog craze, like I said TLOU was about to release

 

[Gingerbread Man]

K, let's look at this saturated market. These are the 2D platformers released by Nintendo from 2010 to 2013 (when DKCTF was announced):

• Kirby's Epic Yarn (2010)
• Donkey Kong Country Returns (2010)
• Kirby's Return To Dreamland (2011)
• New Super Mario Bros. 2 (2012)
• New Super Mario Bros. U (2012)
• Donkey Kong Country Returns 3D (2013)

6 games (2 of them being DKCR) from 3 franchises hardly feels like a saturated market, although I won't deny releasing 2 new NSMB games so close to each other was a very silly move, as was releasing DKCR3D so close to the announcement of DKCTF. I didn't include 3rd parties in here as the original argument was about Nintendo having way too many 2D platformers, which is clearly inaccurate. Even then, including 3rd parties wouldn't increase the number much as not many 3rd parties actually release platformers.

I'm, also, clearly ignoring indies here since the argument changes a lot including them. If the 2D platformer market being saturated by indies explains the backlash towards DKCTF by the Nintendo fanbase then people wouldn't have been hyped by Metroid Dread as 2D Metroidvania is a ridiculously saturated market thanks to indies as well. Similarly, people wouldn't get excited about the possibility of traditional Paper Mario returning if indies were to blame, as there's no shortages of RPGs in the market either.

The problem was not the abundance of 2D platforms, but rather that Wii U offered very little besides (extremely good) 2D platforms. The 2012 marquee title was a 2D Mario platform, the 2013 Christmas game was a 3D-but-playing-like-2D Mario platform, and the long-awaited game by an AAA first-party studio was a 2D Donkey Kong platform. A 2D Yoshi platform was also announced (before DK, in fact).

These 2D platforms were also iterative sequels, meaning you could get a relative similar experience on Wii or 3DS. Though they were full of crazy gameplay ideas, you could imagine most of them more or less working on these less powerful consoles. They failed to showcase what the first Nintendo HD console could do. And just to be sure you got the message, Nintendo released NSMB2 and the port of DKCR on 3DS right before NSMBU and TF. The 3DS had a ton of exclusives without a Wii U counterpart, though. Most other games Wii U games were party games, ports, or tech demos. And Pikmin 3 and Wonderful 101.

Tropical Freeze, and for that matter, Mario 3D World, were the right games at the wrong times. Tropical Freeze would have shone in another timeline with Mario Maker and Splatoon as launch titles instead of New Mario and Nintendo Land, Bayonetta 2 in the first year instead of Wonderful 101, and maybe a Mario Odyssey-style game instead of Mario 3D World.

 

[jnWake]

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree (don't wanna keep on quoting people here). It's clear to me that the reason isn't that the console was full of platformers or that the market was saturated, it's simply that the more hardcore leaning crowd doesn't appreciate/value that particular genre and wanted something different.

 

[CyberWolfBia]

What pains me on that dismissive view on 2D platformers, especially at the time the Wii U was new-ish, is that really you couldn't find that high profile experience anywhere else...

Sony and Microsoft certainly wasn't doing it.. heck, barely any platformers in general, with the odd Knack here and there (that is more combat than pure platforming); "cartoony" games by the big publishers as a whole was dire in every corner.

previous generation we've gotten stuff like Rayman Origins, Sonic 4 Episode I, Mega Man 9 and 10 which were all multiplat, but again, coming up for the next generation there was barely anything before the complaints of "drowning" on the genre had any validity.. at least not in any home console, for sure.

Now look at how things are.. barring the occasional Indie darling that pops up once in a while, I feel the amount of high profile platformers decreased to depressing proportions.. and both 2D and 3D.

 

[Dark Cloud]

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree (don't wanna keep on quoting people here). It's clear to me that the reason isn't that the console was full of platformers or that the market was saturated, it's simply that the more hardcore leaning crowd doesn't appreciate/value that particular genre and wanted something different.

Yeah they just magically appreciate the genre now.

 

[jnWake]

Yeah they just magically appreciate the genre now.

I dunno really, we've gotten few 2D stuff this gen in general (and some of it has been pretty criticized like Star Allies and Crafted World) so it's hard to gauge. People do seem mostly excited for Wonder I think though.

 

[OctoSplattack]

...Okay, I'd be lying if one of the games that sold me on the Wii U wasn't Rayman Legends, because it absolutely was. I know one of my earlier posts said that there were so many platformers being put out on Nintendo consoles that it could feel like they blurred together sometimes but, goddamn it, I love platform games and picked up pretty much every single one mentioned in this thread outside of Yoshi's New Island. I was part of the problem.

 

[AstroOhHey]

Big DKC fan so I was super happy with the reveal and think it's one of the best platformers ever made, but I also immediately 'got' why it got the reaction it did. The complaints it wasn't Metroid Prime 4 was dumb; if Other M hadn't turned out the way it did I don't think the expectation Retro would be put on a new Metroid would be as prevalent, and it really wasn't their job to 'save' Metroid. At the same time I also get the Wii U needed some killer apps and more 2D platformers weren't going to do it, I just wish that ire was directed at something else rather than DK.

 

[terribleidiot]

I like Tropical Freeze, and I get the argument that Returns sold way more than the Metroid games. But at the time, the Wii U didn't just need to sell games, it needed to sell consoles. An iterative sequel to a 2D platformer was never going to do that (To be fair, I don't think a new Metroid would either). I think people who bought a Wii U could see the writing on the wall, and were frustrated Nintendo weren't throwing more at it.

^Also to a poster above, 6 games is loads considering Nintendo's output of the time. The Wii U had DROUGHTS.

 

[Dardan Sandiego]

If people are gonna make the argument that they were inundated with 2D platformers because we got 6 in the span of four years across three platforms they should also include the other games released during that time to assess Nintendo's lineup. It's stuff like this that makes this argument about "saturation" reek of revisionism.

 

[xghost777]

I think people really tend to overthink why this happened. It’s literally just some Metroid fans wanted Metroid Prime over DK and they view Prime as offering significantly more to them than DK offered. The first Retro DK sort of came out of nowhere and the thought is basically “ok Retro got that out of their system so clearly they’ll get back to what matters more” and the gut reaction is “are you f***ing kidding me again!?” That’s the whole thing. Anything beyond is just a bonus and Metroid fans don’t care that DK sells more, Metroid Prime matters more to them.

We’ll finally get a proper Prime game and a new DK game next year so hopefully the bad blood and grudges will end.