Discussion 10 years ago we were in the middle of arguing about Retro making "****ing Donkey Kong"

[CyberWolfBia]

'Justify' is the wrong word. Nobody is saying the reaction was logically correct, or that it was mature or sensible. But as @TheMindOfThomas explained in the post above yours, if you want to understand what that reaction was actually about, you need to understand the context it happened in. If you interpret it as just Metroid fans not liking Donkey Kong, you're missing important information. A huge chunk of the disappointment was really about the sadness of realizing that E3 2013, which many hoped would change the fortune of the WiiU by showing the console in a new light, wasn't actually going to do that.

I don't know.. this indeed feels is just about tone and genre; nevermind Nintendo published and greenlit stuff like Bayonetta, Xenoblade X, Fatal Frame and Ninja Gaiden back in the day.. but god forbid if they make a funny monkey platformer, which is one of the biggest brands and characters they have;

Tropical Freeze is "the goods", it is on the level of Metroid Prime (heck, I'd argue it's even better), it's a masterclass of game design and the so called context is just the insecurity of people wanting something to point in discussions to not make the Wii U look silly...

Quite frankly, Metroid wouldn't never move a needle; It simply doesn't have that power.

 

[Regulus Tera]

Tropical Freeze was always the correct business decision, especially with how Returns performed compared to Corruption. Nintendo fans complaining about it were out of their minds.

 

[Mer.Saloon]

Tropical Freeze was the right call after Returns. It was just very unfortunate that it released at a time when 2D sidescrollers were in a glut by Nintendo.

I remember when Returns came out and everyone adored going back to the 2D realm.

 

[MrBones]

The reaction was pretty justified. TF turned out to be a great game, but at the time Nintendo was inundated with 2D platformers (the previous year had two NSMB titles).

It wasn't what the Wii U needed at the time; it needed high-profile system sellers, attempts at reaching the Wii's casual audience through retro throwbacks weren't as effective anymore.

 

[Dark Cloud]

It wasn’t just about DK vs Metroid. It was also people believing there were too many platformers on the Wii U. The state of mind of everyone at the time was different since the Wii U had abysmal sales.

I never cared. I was happy for DK or Metroid or whatever Retro wanted to put out lol. The Wii U was never gonna do anything great if Mario can’t do it.

 

[Deleted member 3433]

We have never actually moved past this:

True. Recently we had people asking if the price of Metroid Dread was at all justified, because...2D...

 

[Dardan Sandiego]

Tropical Freeze was always the correct business decision, especially with how Returns performed compared to Corruption. Nintendo fans complaining about it were out of their minds.

You don't understand, people were under emotional duress because Nintendo personally wronged them. That's why it was justified to act like entitled crybabies.

 

[BassForever]

I think DK was more the victim of Nintendo doing so many 2d platformers or adjacent during that era off the insane success of the NSMB titles on ds and wii. Off the top of my head on the wiiu and 3ds we got all of the following 2d platformers or adjacent from Nintendo

New Super Mario Bros 2
New Super Mario Bros U
New Super Luigi U
Super Mario Maker
Super Mario Maker for 3DS
Hey Pikmin
Chibi Robo Ziplash
Donkey Kong Country Tropical Freeze
Yoshi's Wooly World
Kirby's Rainbow Curse
Mario vs Donkey Kong Tipping Stars
Donkey Kong Country Returns 3D
Kirby Triple Deluxe
Kirby Planet Robobot
Yoshi's New Island
Poochi and Yoshi Wooly World
Kirby's Extra Epic Yarn

And of course Super Mario 3D Land and World were clearly inspired by 2d Mario even if they were technically 3d. This also doesn't include any digital only titles like the boxboy games. You can be picky and say some of these shouldn't count or came years after the initial DKCTF backlash, but ultimately Nintendo had a lot. Then of course you combine that with the fact nobody other then indies were making 2d platformers which gave them a "lesser" vibe from the gamers (tm) and it was a perfect storm.

 

[CyberWolfBia]

The Wii U had a lot of problems, but they did offer variety; Mario, Donkey Kong, Yoshi and Kirby are all platformers, but they also offer different flavors of the same genre.. heck, Kirby on Wii U was anything but traditional. In the very same Direct we've got glimpse of their best Mario Kart to date, a 3D Mario (that to this day I feel it's also their best), a new ambitious dual release of Super Smash Bros., Xenoblade going into a bold direction and for the whining about the lack of mature games, Bayonetta showed up too.

And if you think about it logically, even if StarTropics was revived by Retro, would still be a lighthearted fun and colorful adventure, not unlike Zelda; at max rated T.. so even that felt like people gaslighting themselves..

I was raised with the SNES, so for me it's natural to think of platformers when I think Nintendo.. heck, it's normal to me to associate platformers as the defacto genre when people talk about video games. And besides.. if I can't count on Nintendo to make platformers, where should I look for? Sony? Microsoft?.. SEGA was the only other company doing regularly, and Sonic games were always so inconsistent in quality. So when a new Nintendo system delivers on that front, doesn't come as a surprise at all.. in fact, I feel nowadays we're in a very anemic phase for the genre they build their foundations...

 

[james]

It's not about Nintendo doing things, I consider auto runner platforming as a whole gimmick. Like the golden age of mobile gaming titles Temple Run and Jetpack Joyride, they were nothing but gimmicks. Gimmicks get old, like auto runner, once a big fad on mobile platforms and now... it's kinda gone.

Few levels in DKCR as an homage to original trilogy was fine but got bored with the cart/rhino levels in DKTF. They were not fun, for me the worst part of the whole game. Especially the way letters and puzzle pieces are easily missable in such levels.

minecart levels have been as much a staple of DKC games as running and jumping are. what a wild take. if anything, i feel like DKCs minecart levels (or DKC2s rollercoaster levels or DKC3s toboggan levels) were some of the biggest influences on the auto runners that started to dominating the mobile scene for a few years after canabalt came out.

also sawmill thrill is an absolute banger. wild to think otherwise.

 

[Lugia667]

I mean....I guess it's true but consideirng that literally no one else was doing 2d platformers besides ubisoft, I can see why Nintendo went to that niche

 

[YolkFolk]

Tropical Freeze was always the correct business decision, especially with how Returns performed compared to Corruption. Nintendo fans complaining about it were out of their minds.

It didn't do a good job of promoting and pushing their new hardware and sales of the game weren't great even from a Wii U perspective. I don't think it was a particularly great business decision tbh. Even on Switch it sold less than 3 million which is crazy really considering it's '****ing Donkey Kong'.

 

[Mer.Saloon]

I think DK was more the victim of Nintendo doing so many 2d platformers or adjacent during that era off the insane success of the NSMB titles on ds and wii. Off the top of my head on the wiiu and 3ds we got all of the following 2d platformers or adjacent from Nintendo

New Super Mario Bros 2
New Super Mario Bros U
New Super Luigi U
Super Mario Maker
Super Mario Maker for 3DS
Hey Pikmin
Chibi Robo Ziplash
Donkey Kong Country Tropical Freeze
Yoshi's Wooly World
Kirby's Rainbow Curse
Mario vs Donkey Kong Tipping Stars
Donkey Kong Country Returns 3D
Kirby Triple Deluxe
Kirby Planet Robobot
Yoshi's New Island
Poochi and Yoshi Wooly World
Kirby's Extra Epic Yarn

And of course Super Mario 3D Land and World were clearly inspired by 2d Mario even if they were technically 3d. This also doesn't include any digital only titles like the boxboy games. You can be picky and say some of these shouldn't count or came years after the initial DKCTF backlash, but ultimately Nintendo had a lot. Then of course you combine that with the fact nobody other then indies were making 2d platformers which gave them a "lesser" vibe from the gamers (tm) and it was a perfect storm.

Yeah. I love 2D games, but I also remember really being sick of 2D sidescrollers at the time. And there were just... SO MANY at the time.

It was so hard for them not to start blending together. You saw one 2D level you felt like you started seeing them all.

Like yeah, you got the nuance eventually, but Nintendo really flooded the market at the time. And they continued until the end of 3DS' life. Seemingly using 2D as a crutch for quick turnarounds.

The fact people are legit excited about Mario Wonder vs the apathy around Mario U is a sign we've finally recovered from that glut.

 

[Dardan Sandiego]

It didn't do a good job of promoting and pushing their new hardware and sales of the game weren't great even from a Wii U perspective. I don't think it was a particularly great business decision tbh. Even on Switch it sold less than 3 million which is crazy really considering it's '****ing Donkey Kong'.

Tropical Freeze has sold over 4,6m on Switch. The power of Fucking Donkey Kong

 

[Lugia667]

It didn't do a good job of promoting and pushing their new hardware and sales of the game weren't great even from a Wii U perspective. I don't think it was a particularly great business decision tbh. Even on Switch it sold less than 3 million which is crazy really considering it's '****ing Donkey Kong'.

I mean if Mario Kart 8 couldn't push sales of the Wii U nothing really could, maybe Metroid would have helped the Wii U sell at best 16 million instead of 13 million

 

[Mer.Saloon]

Tropical Freeze has sold over 4,6m on Switch. The power of Fucking Donkey Kong

When a port of that "fucking Donkey Kong" game outsells a brand new Metroid, there is some irony there.

I mean if Mario Kart 8 couldn't push sales of the Wii U nothing really could, maybe Metroid would have helped the Wii U sell at best 16 million instead of 13 million

Consoles are complex, and there's never one miracle title that turns things around. You need a string of quality to maintain the pace.

The 3DS only came back because Nintendo dumped everything under the sun at it in very short order.

 

[Dardan Sandiego]

When a port of that "fucking Donkey Kong" game outsells a brand new Metroid, there is some irony there.

Let's not pit two queens against each other

 

[Bobo]

We have never actually moved past this:

I have never seen this before but this is really funny.

 

[9-Volt]

minecart levels have been as much a staple of DKC games as running and jumping are. what a wild take. if anything, i feel like DKCs minecart levels (or DKC2s rollercoaster levels or DKC3s toboggan levels) were some of the biggest influences on the auto runners that started to dominating the mobile scene for a few years after canabalt came out.

also sawmill thrill is an absolute banger. wild to think otherwise.

Well, you're entitled to your opinion and I am mine. I really dislike anything auto runner. Donkey Kong or any of those mobile games. Even that Mario Run game. I don't like playing the levels I stages over and over again for collectibles as they're missable in auto run stages. Good for anyone who likes them. I don't.

 

[Aurc]

I own Tropical Freeze, but haven't played it yet. Very interested in finally seeing what it's like, once I get around to it. I'm pretty sure I was one of those salty Metroid fans back then, since I've never really been into Donkey Kong, and my ass just wanted them to make the game they're currently working on. To be honest, I never knew DK had such a passionate fanbase, but it makes sense.

I'm pretty convinced that a large part of the outrage at the announcement didn't even come from the Metroid fanbase per se, more like insecure Nintendo fans who wanted a "mature" big boy game rather than a silly ape game.

You either die a funny NFT monkey game, or you live long enough to see your studio not release anything for a decade.

 

[Dark Cloud]

I mean....I guess it's true but consideirng that literally no one else was doing 2d platformers besides ubisoft, I can see why Nintendo went to that niche

It’s the overall Nintendo lineup at that time. When someone looks at the Switch no one talks about “plethora of 2D platformers” even though all their staple 2D platforming series are on Switch except for a new DK. Because the Switch has tons and tons of games. The variety is all over the place. Wii U had Nintendo and it took them time to acclimated to HD. Third party support was as low as it could get.

 

[CyberWolfBia]

I mean....I guess it's true but consideirng that literally no one else was doing 2d platformers besides ubisoft, I can see why Nintendo went to that niche

Who else was doing platformers anyway? SEGA had regular yearly Sonic games, Ubisoft had Rayman Origins and Legends in a spam of 2 years.. and Bandai NAMCO had the Ghostly Adventures games for Pac-Man, which came out late and people were not that jazzed about.

Sony had Knack and a very late Ratchet game which was more about combat than platforming, and so LittleBIGPlanet 3, which is more of a creative tool than a traditional platformer;

 

[Evil Lucario]

We have never actually moved past this:

This mindset has single-handedly destroyed 2D platformers on consoles until New Super Mario Bros Wii.

 

[Dark Cloud]

I mean if Mario Kart 8 couldn't push sales of the Wii U nothing really could, maybe Metroid would have helped the Wii U sell at best 16 million instead of 13 million

Metroid probably would’ve pushed 500K more Wii U’s the most.

 

[YolkFolk]

I mean if Mario Kart 8 couldn't push sales of the Wii U nothing really could, maybe Metroid would have helped the Wii U sell at best 16 million instead of 13 million

I don't think Metroid would have sold better than Donkey Kong, but I think Metroid would have provided a better demonstration of what the new hardware could do and that was something Nintendo were gravely missing - a piece of software which could distinguish the new hardware from the old. That's something that Nintendo was really struggling to provide with the other example being New Super Mario Bros U at launch. Nintendo clearly thought they could just have sequels to these classic Wii games and people would move across, but these were games which could have been done on the Wii without much struggle and also failed to show that their hardware was offering something new. This was all part of a bigger overall failing and of course Metroid on it's own wouldn't have made much difference to the success or not of the Wii U since almost everything else was wrong as well. Keep in mind that the mass market thought the Wii U gamepad was a controller for the Wii and then they see games like NSMBU and DKCTF as the key software and it's easy to see why people didn't even know the Wii U was its own console.

 

[TheMindOfThomas]

Tropical Freeze is "the goods", it is on the level of Metroid Prime (heck, I'd argue it's even better), it's a masterclass of game design and the so called context is just the insecurity of people wanting something to point in discussions to not make the Wii U look silly...

No one is denying Tropical Freeze is an excellent game. But at its core, it really is just an iterative sequel to a Wii game. It didn’t feel “new” or “groundbreaking”.

Metroid might not have been right either with the way the franchise sells, but they needed something on the revolutionary level of the first Prime game to dazzle audiences and get more people talking about the Wii U.

it doesn’t matter whether or not Tropical Freeze would have been technically “better” in terms of core game design. What mattered was bringing something new and exciting to the table in a time when the Wii U desperately needed that…and it failed in that regard.

 

[Sky Walker]

10 years later and some people still believe Retro doing Metroid would’ve changed anything lmao.

Lol. As much as how I love Metroid and Prime games. Retro not doing a Metroid game for the WiiU worked for the best. It would've flopped so hard and wouldn't do anything for the WiiU sales wise.

 

[Dark Cloud]

If they had did Metroid Prime god knows if the series would be going right now. It would’ve tanked so hard on Wii U lol. To me it’s a good thing they didn’t do Prime on that sub par system.

 

[Gingerbread Man]

I think DK was more the victim of Nintendo doing so many 2d platformers or adjacent during that era off the insane success of the NSMB titles on ds and wii. Off the top of my head on the wiiu and 3ds we got all of the following 2d platformers or adjacent from Nintendo

New Super Mario Bros 2
New Super Mario Bros U
New Super Luigi U
Super Mario Maker
Super Mario Maker for 3DS
Hey Pikmin
Chibi Robo Ziplash
Donkey Kong Country Tropical Freeze
Yoshi's Wooly World
Kirby's Rainbow Curse
Mario vs Donkey Kong Tipping Stars
Donkey Kong Country Returns 3D
Kirby Triple Deluxe
Kirby Planet Robobot
Yoshi's New Island
Poochi and Yoshi Wooly World
Kirby's Extra Epic Yarn

And of course Super Mario 3D Land and World were clearly inspired by 2d Mario even if they were technically 3d. This also doesn't include any digital only titles like the boxboy games. You can be picky and say some of these shouldn't count or came years after the initial DKCTF backlash, but ultimately Nintendo had a lot. Then of course you combine that with the fact nobody other then indies were making 2d platformers which gave them a "lesser" vibe from the gamers (tm) and it was a perfect storm.

I don't think Metroid would have sold better than Donkey Kong, but I think Metroid would have provided a better demonstration of what the new hardware could do and that was something Nintendo were gravely missing - a piece of software which could distinguish the new hardware from the old. That's something that Nintendo was really struggling to provide with the other example being New Super Mario Bros U at launch. Nintendo clearly thought they could just have sequels to these classic Wii games and people would move across, but these were games which could have been done on the Wii without much struggle and also failed to show that their hardware was offering something new. This was all part of a bigger overall failing and of course Metroid on it's own wouldn't have made much difference to the success or not of the Wii U since almost everything else was wrong as well.

This.

The problem was not Retro doing a 2D platform, the problem was multiple Nintendo team doing 2D platforms and the library offering little variety. Even the 3D Mario game was 3D-but-playing-like-2D. These games (which were and are exceptionally good) also fail to showcase what the new hardware could do.

I'm sure that, if the early years of Wii U also had Splatoon and Breath of the Wild, Tropical Freeze would have been better received.

And while people do not really expect anything else from Good-Feel or HAL, Retro had different kinds of expectations (even comically non-sensical like "StarTropics as Nintendo Uncharted")

 

[Dark Cloud]

Maybe Nintendo should’ve delayed Skyward Sword and had a Wii U version ready at launch. At least it would’ve had a better start, but probably would’ve tanked anyways due to other factors.

 

[OctoSplattack]

You don't understand, people were under emotional duress because Nintendo personally wronged them. That's why it was justified to act like entitled crybabies.

Indeed. How dare they make another goddamn Donkey Kong Country? They wronged us with the sickening piece of filth that was Other M. They owed us a Metroid Prime. And what did they give us? A stupid cartoon platformer starring a Mario character. They betrayed us.

The Wii U had a lot of problems, but they did offer variety; Mario, Donkey Kong, Yoshi and Kirby are all platformers, but they also offer different flavors of the same genre..

They're still all platformers, though. And even if you're a fan of the genre, that many platformers can start to blend together after a while... so imagine if you don't like platformers. It would be like asking someone who doesn't care about first-person shooters to appreciate the nuance between Call of Duty and Battlefield.

I don't think Metroid would have sold better than Donkey Kong, but I think Metroid would have provided a better demonstration of what the new hardware could do and that was something Nintendo were gravely missing - a piece of software which could distinguish the new hardware from the old.

I'd argue that, in terms of a graphical showcase, they did have that: Pikmin 3, which despite coming out early in the Wii U's life, is still the best looking game on the console. The problem was that... it's Pikmin. And only ten people cared about the franchise and it's weird RTS/puzzle trappings at the time.

 

[CyberWolfBia]

No one is denying Tropical Freeze is an excellent game. But at its core, it really is just an iterative sequel to a Wii game. It didn’t feel “new” or “groundbreaking”.

Metroid might not have been right either with the way the franchise sells, but they needed something on the revolutionary level of the first Prime game to dazzle audiences and get more people talking about the Wii U.

it doesn’t matter whether or not Tropical Freeze would have been technically “better” in terms of core game design. What mattered was bringing something new and exciting to the table in a time when the Wii U desperately needed that…and it failed in that regard.

If it were to be Metroid, would also be a iterative sequel to a Wii game (Prime 3); probably with some integration of the Gamepad that many wouldn't jive with, I'm sure.. on top that Other M wasn't that long ago either;

If it were to be StarTropics (hypothetically), it would be just another flavor of Zelda; certainly wouldn't make waves either, not on the level of Punch-Out!! (which by the way.. also needed a sequel on Wii U...)

and again, it's not that the Wii U was lacking on the department of new concepts and themes for Nintendo; again, Xenoblade had such mind blowing promise at the time, Bayonetta was the weirdest IP to Nintendo to fund, and wouldn't be longer until they announce stuff like Shin Megami Tensei X Fire Emblem, which also was out of nowhere (disregarding of how the game turned out); Without mention freaking Splatoon...

I suspect if Retro showed up a new IP, people would had hated from the get-go too, especially if they went with something more colorful and whimsical.

 

[Lozjam]

I'm pretty convinced that a large part of the outrage at the announcement didn't even come from the Metroid fanbase per se, more like insecure Nintendo fans who wanted a "mature" big boy game rather than a silly ape game.

Nah the problem is actually way more endemic. It's the fact that Nintendo was pushing the 2D platformer button over and over and over again.

Here was Nintendo's 2D lineup of that generation:
NSMBU: A derivitive sequel to NSMB Wii
NSMB2: A derivitive sequel to NSMB 2
NSLU: A DLC expansion, to NSMBU
Yoshis New Island: A derivitive sequel to Yoshi's Island DS
Donkey Kong Country Returns 3DS: a port of the Wii game with extra content.
Yoshi's Wooly World: An actual breath of fresh air in the platformer genre, but it looked derivitive of Yoshi's Island and Kirby's epic yarn.
Hey Pikmin!
2D platformer pikmin.
Chibi Robo Zip Lash
A bad 2D Chibi Robo game

Not to mention that Mario 3D Land and 3D World felt more like 2D games rather than 3D games too. And I can definitely see how Nintendo over saturated their market.

People expected DKTF to be a derivitive sequel, rather than the genre defining game it turned out to be. And who can blame them, when Nintendo was literally using the same design philosophy for all of their 2D games.

 

[Lugia667]

I think it's because for a while 2d platformers were in the "Handheld ghetto" and were regarded and being "unworthy of consoles". Unless you were an indie, then you were given some slack

 

[Gingerbread Man]

If it were to be Metroid, would also be a iterative sequel to a Wii game (Prime 3); probably with some integration of the Gamepad that many wouldn't jive with, I'm sure.. on top that Other M wasn't that long ago either;

If it were to be StarTropics (hypothetically), it would be just another flavor of Zelda; certainly wouldn't make waves either, not on the level of Punch-Out!! (which by the way.. also needed a sequel on Wii U...)

and again, it's not that the Wii U was lacking on the department of new concepts and themes for Nintendo; again, Xenoblade had such mind blowing promise at the time, Bayonetta was the weirdest IP to Nintendo to fund, and wouldn't be longer until they announce stuff like Shin Megami Tensei X Fire Emblem, which also was out of nowhere (disregarding of how the game turned out); Without mention freaking Splatoon...

Splatoon was announced at E3 2014. At that point, Wii U was out fo 1.5 years, and it had:

18 Nov 2012 Nintendo Land
18 Nov 2012 New Super Mario Bros. U
18 Nov 2012 Ninja Gaiden 3: Razor's Edge
18 Nov 2012 SiNG Party
18 Mar 2013 Lego City Undercover
23 Jun 2013 Game & Wario
04 Aug 2013 Pikmin 3
25 Aug 2013 New Super Luigi U
15 Sep 2013 The Wonderful 101
20 Sep 2013 The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker HD
25 Oct 2013 Wii Party U
15 Nov 2013 Mario & Sonic at the Sochi 2014 Olympic Winter Games
22 Nov 2013 Super Mario 3D World
10 Jan 2014 Wii Fit U
21 Feb 2014 Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze
30 May 2014 Mario Kart 8

Lots of platforms and party games, a handful of ports/remakes, and the odd game here and there.

Honestly, it's not a good library, even though most of the games by themselves are great. It lacks variety. A Metroid Prime would have helped a lot -- or even an early release of Bayonetta, Xenoblade, or Splatoon.

By comparison, Switch, during its first year had Breath of the Wild, Mario Odyssey, ARMS, Splatoon, and Xenoblade. Wii had Twilight Princess, Galaxy, Prime 3, Super Paper Mario, and Fire Emblem.

I suspect if Retro showed up a new IP, people would had hated from the get-go too, especially if they went with something more colorful and whimsical.

I agree. I think there are two issues here:
1) people wanting Nintendo to produce more """mature""" games, and looking at Retro as the ideal developer. Colorful platforms with mascotte characters are everything Nintendo should leave behind;
2) people looking at Wii U library in 2014 and saying "well, great games, but... they should have released something else. Did we really need Donkey Kong, when we already have Yoshi, and Mario, and Luigi, and Mario but 3D?".

 

[Lugia667]

I actually think the Wii U's launch library was better than most playstation consoles tbh, they have never really had great launch lineups

 

[YolkFolk]

I think it's because for a while 2d platformers were in the "Handheld ghetto" and were regarded and being "unworthy of consoles". Unless you were an indie, then you were given some slack

This isn't correct as we'd long past that era with the rise of 2D games on Wii - including New Super Mario Bros Wii and Donkey Kong Country Returns which were huge successes and well received by all types of gamers.

Like others have pointed out, there was actually a bombardment of such games and when it came to new hardware, very little to show off that this was the next generation.

 

[Mer.Saloon]

Who else was doing platformers anyway? SEGA had regular yearly Sonic games, Ubisoft had Rayman Origins and Legends in a spam of 2 years.. and Bandai NAMCO had the Ghostly Adventures games for Pac-Man, which came out late and people were not that jazzed about.

Sony had Knack and a very late Ratchet game which was more about combat than platforming, and so LittleBIGPlanet 3, which is more of a creative tool than a traditional platformer;

3D platformers be hard to make.

I actually think the Wii U's launch library was better than most playstation consoles tbh, they have never really had great launch lineups

The launch wasn't really the problem. It was a solid launch and it sold well at launch.

Problem was Nintendo couldn't follow up.

 

[CyberWolfBia]

Splatoon was announced at E3 2014. At that point, Wii U was out fo 1.5 years, and it had:



Lots of platforms and party games, a handful of ports/remakes, and the odd game here and there.

Honestly, it's not a good library, even though most of the games by themselves are great. It lacks variety. A Metroid Prime would have helped a lot -- or even an early release of Bayonetta, Xenoblade, or Splatoon.

By comparison, Switch, during its first year had Breath of the Wild, Mario Odyssey, ARMS, Splatoon, and Xenoblade. Wii had Twilight Princess, Galaxy, Prime 3, Super Paper Mario, and Fire Emblem.

That's literally just 4 platformers there; one of them being DLC stand-alone for NSMBU.. when really in other consoles at the time the genre was basically dead; If you factor the 3DS there, maybe.. but the Wii U itself wasn't that bloated with the genre as people suggests.

Pikmin 3 and The Wonderful 101 being Wii games that were turned into early Wii U titles were great additions, imo; Even though they would never be able to make much buzz;

But of course, I was talking about the perspective of that Direct that announced Tropical Freeze; there were lots of things to look forward, and not just platformers.

The discourse of the time was more about themes and not how quality the games were, and that's the worst of the gaming community. It also devalues actual effort and talent put in great games.. so many times we've had to read Retro was "wasted" in a 2D platformer.. it was incredibly embarassing to see.

 

[Yoshifan31]

I’m pretty sure the anniversary for this was two months ago

I wish Prime 4 would come out already, maybe this stupid topic would die then. Every time people are daft about this, it isn’t about the quality of DK. The oversaturation of 2D platformers at the time was very real

A Prime game that used the Gamepad would have been very interesting and probably the most justified usage of the console’s new features. “If Mario couldn’t save the Wii U nothing can” Well yeah, but you know what didn’t help? None of the Mario games before Maker actually justified the Gamepad. So while Wii U would have failed regardless, a new Metroid game that used its features would have at least made use of the concept. Instead we ended up with a very weak library with poor genre variety, ending with a version of Zelda that doesn’t even use the Gamepad. On top of being a commerical failure, Wii U didn’t even deliver on using its unique features, Metroid would have had mitigated that

 

[Dardan Sandiego]

Nah the problem is actually way more endemic. It's the fact that Nintendo was pushing the 2D platformer button over and over and over again.

Here was Nintendo's 2D lineup of that generation:
NSMBU: A derivitive sequel to NSMB Wii
NSMB2: A derivitive sequel to NSMB 2
NSLU: A DLC expansion, to NSMBU
Yoshis New Island: A derivitive sequel to Yoshi's Island DS
Donkey Kong Country Returns 3DS: a port of the Wii game with extra content.
Yoshi's Wooly World: An actual breath of fresh air in the platformer genre, but it looked derivitive of Yoshi's Island and Kirby's epic yarn.
Hey Pikmin!
2D platformer pikmin.
Chibi Robo Zip Lash
A bad 2D Chibi Robo game

Not to mention that Mario 3D Land and 3D World felt more like 2D games rather than 3D games too. And I can definitely see how Nintendo over saturated their market.

People expected DKTF to be a derivitive sequel, rather than the genre defining game it turned out to be. And who can blame them, when Nintendo was literally using the same design philosophy for all of their 2D games.

Wooly World, Hey Pikmin and Zip Lash all came out after DKTF. edit: Actually, so did Yoshi's New Island.

 

[Pierceyonder]

I remember the sentiment at the time in my circles: nobody doubted the game would be good, perhaps even excellent, but they just weren't the games people wanted at a time when the Wii U was struggling. People wanted big, bold, and new games that were pushing the envelope of what it meant to see Nintendo games in HD.

3D World, NSMBU, and Tropical Freeze sort of represent a triumvirate of great games at the wrong time. This was Nintendo's first HD console, but we were getting sequels to older games that, at first glance, didn't feel like a drastic aesthetic or gameplay departure from what came before. I ended up coming around to all 3 of these games (I was not exactly a hater, but I wasn't exactly excited for them either when they were revealed), with 3D World in particular cementing itself as my favourite of the 3D Mario games.

I think Tropical Freeze's issue was threefold:

1. People felt as though Retro was providing something aesthetically different and thematically different from other Nintendo IP with their Prime games, which were more influenced by North American design sensibilities and didn't really feel like the kind of thing the Japan studios would create. DKCTF, if you aren't going to look under the hood and really take a close look at it, felt like the kind of thing that any other Nintendo studio could have made, even if that is not truly the case. Retro's work with Prime helped diversify their portfolio, even if it appealed to a much smaller audience, and that's important and something I think Nintendo started doing more with the Switch era. I don't think people were necessarily clamoring for Metroid specifically; that was just the easiest example to give at the time. I think people just wanted something a bit more adult, a bit different, a bit more visually unique compared to Nintendo's output in this era.
   
   
2. It was another platforming game, which was a genre it felt as though we were getting a lot of at the time. This aspect didn't actually bother me on a personal level, but the general sentiment at the time was that there were lots of platformers in Nintendo's output between 3DS and Wii U.
   
   
3. Metroid was just coming off the heels of Other M, which was a game that wasn't very well received, and people had a desire to see that series come back from that and restore some goodwill. Retro seemed like the only ones who would be willing to make a new Prime game and do it right (which evidently may actually be the case).

These three games in particular getting another shot at life with the Switch has been great, because I think a lot more people got to play them and enjoy them for what they actually are instead of what they think they should have been.

 

[Dark Cloud]

I think it's because for a while 2d platformers were in the "Handheld ghetto" and were regarded and being "unworthy of consoles". Unless you were an indie, then you were given some slack

No. The Wii already had DKCR, Wario Shake It, NSMB Wii, Kirby’s Return to Dreamland, Kirby Epic Yarn, Rayman Origins. Nobody was complaining about too many platformers on Wii.

 

[Lozjam]

Wooly World, Hey Pikmin and Zip Lash all came out after DKTF. edit: Actually, so did Yoshi's New Island.

Of course they did. That's why I said generation.

But all of these games besides Hey Pikmin and Zip Lash were all announced. Not only that, but Yoshi's New Island would release just a few months after DKTF. That is way too many 2D platformers in such a short time. And way too many of them were super formulaic and did nothing to advance the genre.

 

[Lugia667]

yeah I do think NSMB2 was unnecessary, if it didn't exist I feel like a some of the backlash would have been at least somewhat mitigated, 2 mario platformers in the same year was probably too much

 

[Dardan Sandiego]

Of course they did. That's why I said generation.

But all of these games besides Hey Pikmin and Zip Lash were all announced. Not only that, but Yoshi's New Island would release just a few months after DKTF. That is way too many 2D platformers in such a short time. And way too many of them were super formulaic and did nothing to advance the genre.

People knew all of this at E3 2013?

 

[jnWake]

Are people just gonna make up stuff to justify their 2013 anger? By the time Tropical Freeze came out on Wii U, Nintendo had released the following platformers on the system:

• New Super Mario Bros U
• Super Mario 3D World

I'm being generous and putting a 3D platformer in here, regardless of the fact it was announced to come after Tropical Freeze originally. I think Yoshi's Woolly World had been teased on the infamous January 2013 Direct as well, but it hadn't even been given a title at the time.

 

[OctoSplattack]

People knew all of this at E3 2013?

NSMB2, NSMBU, and DKCR 3D were already out. NSLU was announced in the February 2013 Direct and set to release a week after E3. Yoshi's New Island was revealed in the April 2013 Direct, though wouldn't be given its title until E3. Woolly World was announced as Yarn Yoshi in the January 2013 Direct.

 

[Lozjam]

People knew all of this at E3 2013?

Yes. Yoshis Wooly World(then called Yarn Yoshi) was announced at the Oh Shit panic button Nintendo direct in January 2013. Where it looked 100% like Kirbys Epic Yarn instead of a Yoshi game. Yoshis New Island was revealed on the following April, and then it got it's name at E3 2013, same as DKTF. Though for whatever reason, Yoshi's New Island wasn't in their presentation.

Like I said, the only things we didn't know about were Chibi Robo Zip Lash, and Hey Pikmin, since we didn't start hearing from those until the dark ages of 2015-2016.

yeah I do think NSMB2 was unnecessary, if it didn't exist I feel like a some of the backlash would have been at least somewhat mitigated, 2 mario platformers in the same year was probably too much

We also had 2 DKC games within a year from each other too. DKC Returns 3DS released with extra content in 2013. And, not only that, but if they hit their planned release date in November, then it would have been 2 DKC games within 6 months of each other.

 

[Lugia667]

Splatoon was announced at E3 2014. At that point, Wii U was out fo 1.5 years, and it had:



Lots of platforms and party games, a handful of ports/remakes, and the odd game here and there.

Honestly, it's not a good library, even though most of the games by themselves are great. It lacks variety. A Metroid Prime would have helped a lot -- or even an early release of Bayonetta, Xenoblade, or Splatoon.

By comparison, Switch, during its first year had Breath of the Wild, Mario Odyssey, ARMS, Splatoon, and Xenoblade. Wii had Twilight Princess, Galaxy, Prime 3, Super Paper Mario, and Fire Emblem.


I agree. I think there are two issues here:
1) people wanting Nintendo to produce more """mature""" games, and looking at Retro as the ideal developer. Colorful platforms with mascotte characters are everything Nintendo should leave behind;
2) people looking at Wii U library in 2014 and saying "well, great games, but... they should have released something else. Did we really need Donkey Kong, when we already have Yoshi, and Mario, and Luigi, and Mario but 3D?".

I often wonder how much the 2011 tsunami affected the Wii U's early game development. We know it definitely affected 3ds game like 3d Land and Mario Kart 7. I imagine the HD development was hit even harder