StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (New Staff Post, Please read)

[Serif]

I've never seen what happens when you unplug an eGPU from a laptop while a game is running, but I assume it isn't pretty. Just another layer of complexity and expense that disrupts Switching and seems unnecessary when you could just have a powerful mobile GPU from the start.

 

[ILikeFeet]

The easiest solution would be to take Sony's approach and just use two chips. One in the actual device and another in the dock.

costliest solution, you mean. especially if you are looking for performance.

 

[chocolate_supra]

The easiest solution would be to take Sony's approach and just use two chips. One in the actual device and another in the dock.

This was talked about in this thread a long time ago, and iirc it was said the slowdown from seperate processors having to talk to each other through an external connection (rather than being on the same board at least, if not the same SoC) would be sizeable enough to diminish a lot of the benefit you'd get from so much extra power. Plus the potential issues with hotswapping processors when docking/undocking.

But help me out, what device does Sony use two separate chips for?

 

[Concernt]

The easiest solution would be to take Sony's approach and just use two chips. One in the actual device and another in the dock.

That isn't what Sony does, and that isn't an easy solution.

 

[SiG]

DocTre: dudududuuu... Uploading latest YouTube video about Switch 2

Nintendo ninjas: swoosssh What it do bruh?

Ninja 1: "I hear you were talk of the town..."
Ninja 2: "and still kickin' around"

 

[redmutineer75]

But help me out, what device does Sony use two separate chips for?

I assume the remote play stuff in the Vita and Portal? But that's obviously quite different to an eGPU.

 

[Concernt]

I assume the remote play stuff in the Vita and Portal? But that's obviously quite different to an eGPU.

I mean, the dock already has a video output chip, so if that's the argument being made, Nintendo already does that without the wireless component.

 

[boomersooner2000]

I don't know about that.

Assuming Drake's fabricated using TSMC's 4N process node, I don't think the improvements TSMC's N3E process node brings over TSMC's 4N process node are going to be significant, especially as the SRAM size on TSMC's N3E process node is exactly the same as on TSMC's N5 process node family (including TSMC's 4N process node), and SRAM takes a huge chunk of space on SoCs, which TSMC's projections don't necessarily take into account.

Can you explain this better @Dakhil ? Are you saying that the power savings won't be sufficient due to the SRAM cells being unable to scale beyond N5? I thought most of the power savings for scaling to N3 comes from the transistors or is that not correct

 

[Ghostsonplanets]

This is actually really cool and a good read, even if with some need of a surface level CPU knowledge to fully grasp. It's a Chips n' Cheese analysis and in-depth look at the Cortex A57 CPU cores, which are employed on the Tegra X1 of the Switch:

Cortex A57, Nintendo Switch’s CPU

In the early 2010s, Arm’s 32-bit cores had established themselves in cell phones and tablets. But rising memory capacities in those devices meant Arm would have to go 64-bit sooner or later. …

chipsandcheese.com

Can you explain this better @Dakhil ? Are you saying that the power savings won't be sufficient due to the SRAM cells being unable to scale beyond N5? I thought most of the power savings for scaling to N3 comes from the transistors or is that not correct

What Dakhil is trying to convey is that with the rising costs for bleeding edge nodes, marginal gains for the newest nodes and the fact SRAM scaling has died, the biggest factor for a shrink, the economical, doesn't/barely exist anymore.

Hence why, if T239 is already fabbed on TSMC 4N, there's little to no gain doing a shrink towards N3 or N2. They're very expensive nodes, barely bring power efficiency gains over N4 family and, due to no SRAM scaling, a shrink wouldn't actually really be that smaller on N3.

It's why Dakhil says he doesn't expect Nintendo to shrink a 4N fabbed T239 to a newer node. There's no reason to and barely any benefit. If Nintendo wants to have good power efficiency and ability to create cheaper portable only SKUs such as Lite, they will need to hit the right power targets from the start on 4N, unlike what happened with Tegra X1 on TSMC 20nm, which Nintendo needed a shrink to 16nm to create a Lite SKU.

Any other power efficiency gain to increase battery life in the future will probably come from more efficient memory/storage, screen/DDIC, components, etc.

 

[ILikeFeet]

This is actually really cool and a good read, even if with some need of a surface level CPU knowledge to fully grasp. It's a Chips n' Cheese analysis and in-depth look at the Cortex A57 CPU cores, which are employed on the Tegra X1 of the Switch:

Cortex A57, Nintendo Switch’s CPU

In the early 2010s, Arm’s 32-bit cores had established themselves in cell phones and tablets. But rising memory capacities in those devices meant Arm would have to go 64-bit sooner or later. …

chipsandcheese.com

have they looked at a newer ARM core? a peek at the A73 is nice, but it's probably too close to the A57.

 

[Ghostsonplanets]

have they looked at a newer ARM core? a peek at the A73 is nice, but it's probably too close to the A57.

Cortex X2: Arm Aims High

Arm has traditionally targeted the low end of the power and performance curve, but just as Intel has been looking to expand into the low power market, ARM is looking to expand into higher power and…

chipsandcheese.com

ARM’s Cortex A72: aarch64 for the Masses

ARM’s Cortex A72 is a 3-wide, speculative, out of order microarchitecture launched in 2016. During its prime, it saw service in several cell phone SoCs: Qualcomm’s Snapdragon 650, used in the Oppo …

chipsandcheese.com

ARM’s Cortex A710: Winning by Default

ARM Ltd has been dominating the Android world for the better part of the last decade, with their 7-series cores at the forefront of their success. Throughout the late 2010s, the Cortex A73, A75, an…

chipsandcheese.com

Arm’s Cortex A510: Two Kids in a Trench Coat

Arm’s 5-series line moves slowly. The Cortex A53 and A55 each served across multiple generations of 7-series companions, and both were 2-wide in-order cores running at low clocks. When your a…

chipsandcheese.com

These are the newest than A57 core designs they have done an in-depth look. They haven't done anything with A76/7/8 yet.

Edit: They did look at Neoverse N1, which is Cortex A76 for servers

Neoverse N1 vs Zen 2: ARM in Practice

Previously, we looked at ARM and x86 and concluded high performance designs wouldn’t get a significant advantage by using either instruction set. That article focused narrowly on the respecti…

chipsandcheese.com

Deep Diving Neoverse N1

Our previous article gave a pretty narrow view of how Neoverse N1 and Zen 2 stacked up, and mostly focused on whether ISA was responsible for performance differences. Here, we’re going to ana…

chipsandcheese.com

The comparison of Neoverse N1 vs Zen 2 is actually quite interesting and I didn't had looked at it yet. A76 is basically A78 precursor. So seeing it how it would stack more or less against Zen 2 could give us a better idea of Switch 2 A78 x PS5/XSeries Zen 2.

 

[Machrider]

I think the best solution for extreme performance games is for Nintendo to offer an official "portable dock" which would basically just be a stand for the system with a battery built in (increases battery life) and if they're so concerned about heat it could keep the system in table top mode to keep it out of the hands. And then let the system max clock in its home dock, so like 20 watts like that?

Maybe you don't have that performance profile on day 1 but you add it as time goes on. They did with the Switch eventually over time allow higher clocks for the undocked mode.

 

[lattjeful]

I think the best solution for extreme performance games is for Nintendo to offer an official "portable dock" which would basically just be a stand for the system with a battery built in (increases battery life) and if they're so concerned about heat it could keep the system in table top mode to keep it out of the hands. And then let the system max clock in its home dock, so like 20 watts like that?

Maybe you don't have that performance profile on day 1 but you add it as time goes on. They did with the Switch eventually over time allow higher clocks for the undocked mode.

The difference with this and the Switch clocks though is that the Switch clocks need nothing more than the system itself VS an external peripheral. Offering something like a portable dock would be a waste. Not everybody will have it, and a game will still need to run at the already offered Switch 2 clocks. Plus it's another layer of complexity when the whole point of the Switch system is to be seamless and easy.

More work for the devs, too. You'd now have portable, boosted portable, and docked modes. I just can't see Nintendo going through with it. Not when the performance/graphics boost in portable is from a peripheral VS a console refresh a la PS4 Pro, so there's not really an incentive to put in the resources for the separate mode either.

 

[Machrider]

The difference with this and the Switch clocks though is that the Switch clocks need nothing more than the system itself VS an external peripheral. Offering something like a portable dock would be a waste. Not everybody will have it, and a game will still need to run at the already offered Switch 2 clocks. Plus it's another layer of complexity when the whole point of the Switch system is to be seamless and easy.

More work for the devs, too. You'd now have portable, boosted portable, and docked modes. I just can't see Nintendo going through with it. Not when the performance/graphics boost in portable is from a peripheral VS a console refresh a la PS4 Pro, so there's not really an incentive to put in the resources for the separate mode either.

A piece of plastic + battery costs really like what? $10 to mass produce in the millions?

A PS4 Pro/PS5 Pro requires a completely different system at a cost of what? PS5 Pro is probably going to be like $500? $600?

I don't think developers are that bothered by performance mode options, virtually every major 3rd party game has a PC version practically which can have dozens of different configurations, a console like the Switch 2 with 3 modes instead of 2 is really not I think a game changer for developers. It'll just let them run some games better by not crippling the chipset that is in the system with ridiculously low battery and power constraints.

If you're a dev and you don't want to use it ... easy ... don't use it. But for a developer that's trying to port like an Alan Wake II or maybe a GTAVI in a hypothetical scenario and really having the butcher the game to get it running, why not let them use the full power of the chipset to give the consumer a more satisfactory experience that doesn't make the hardware look bad. Games like the Batman Arkham City port reflect poorly on the Switch hardware and by extension Nintendo itself.

 

[D36]

In our system, for better or worse (it's for worse), money is itself powerful. Nintendo Switch has brought in billions of dollars worth of revenue- it has an ecosystem value on-par with some pieces of military equipment. As such, it's not that surprising that any threat to it, any plan to move forward, the next multi-billion dollar idea, is kept under very tight wraps.

When you put it that way, it sounds fucking bonkers, yet appropriate, nonetheless.

 

[ReddDreadtheLead]

I don't know if having a separate block of Cortex-A55 cores is necessarily beneficial, because I don't know if the Cortex-A55 is necessarily significantly more power efficient than the Cortex-A78, going by Geekerwan's review.

Not for power reasons, but for efficiency reasons. Having say 4 cores just for the OS and the 8th A78 core for the games and offer an even number of “gaming cores” and have a higher performance while consuming a little more power.

Like, 4 A53 or A55 at 1-1.2GHz and 8 A78C at 1.78GHz, while this set up would consume a bit more power, it is more noticeably performant vs 7 cores and 1 for the OS, which makes it more efficient.

 

[lattjeful]

A piece of plastic + battery costs really like what? $10 to mass produce in the millions?

A PS4 Pro/PS5 Pro requires a completely different system at a cost of what? PS5 Pro is probably going to be like $500? $600?

I don't think developers are that bothered by performance mode options, virtually every major 3rd party game has a PC version practically which can have dozens of different configurations, a console like the Switch 2 with 3 modes instead of 2 is really not I think a game changer for developers. It'll just let them run some games better by not crippling the chipset that is in the system with ridiculously low battery and power constraints.

If you're a dev and you don't want to use it ... easy ... don't use it. But for a developer that's trying to port like an Alan Wake II or maybe a GTAVI in a hypothetical scenario and really having the butcher the game to get it running, why not let them use the full power of the chipset to give the consumer a more satisfactory experience that doesn't make the hardware look bad. Games like the Batman Arkham City port reflect poorly on the Switch hardware and by extension Nintendo itself.

It's not about the cost, moreso about simplicity. You use it on the TV by docking, or you take it out of the dock and use it portably. Nothing muddies the messaging or the use of the system. Same with the PS4 Pro. Yes, it's expensive, but it's also a dedicated and separate system. Plug it into your TV, and go. I feel like it isn't the same thing as your proposed portable dock.

Addressing the bolded, I'm not sure how much more satisfactory an experience you'd get. It'd still be targeting the base console, so the enhancements would be few and far in between VS a PS4 Pro-like upgrade just straight up gives you better hardware. If a game is targeting Switch 2 specs, there's only so much you can do. Plus, if you're gonna plug the system into a wall and play it on the portable screen, you might as well just play docked and get the resolution and graphics bump anyway. It feels like a waste in development resources and muddies up the use case of the system. It's something the people in this thread would get use out of for sure, but we also aren't the majority who just wants to plug their shit in and play.

 

[ziggyrivers]

 

[Dakhil]

 

[SiG]

* Hidden text: cannot be quoted. *

 

[chocolate_supra]

* Hidden text: cannot be quoted. *

 

[Deleted member 645]

I think the amount of secrecy and super top secret NDA’s are ridiculous from Nintendo.

Standard Nintendo. Silly as switch 2 is the biggest open “secret” in gaming.

 

[Machrider]

It's not about the cost, moreso about simplicity. You use it on the TV by docking, or you take it out of the dock and use it portably. Nothing muddies the messaging or the use of the system. Same with the PS4 Pro. Yes, it's expensive, but it's also a dedicated and separate system. Plug it into your TV, and go. I feel like it isn't the same thing as your proposed portable dock.

Addressing the bolded, I'm not sure how much more satisfactory an experience you'd get. It'd still be targeting the base console, so the enhancements would be few and far in between VS a PS4 Pro-like upgrade just straight up gives you better hardware. If a game is targeting Switch 2 specs, there's only so much you can do. Plus, if you're gonna plug the system into a wall and play it on the portable screen, you might as well just play docked and get the resolution and graphics bump anyway. It feels like a waste in development resources and muddies up the use case of the system. It's something the people in this thread would get use out of for sure, but we also aren't the majority who just wants to plug their shit in and play.

I don't think it is that unheard of a scenario for people though anyway. Carrying a battery charge for a phone or tablet is normal consumer stuff these days, it's not something all that exotic of a solution.

Or they could just a fashion an external battery pack the goes on the outside of the Switch 2, but make it official. The current Switch has many of those as is.

If you have one or you are plugged into wall power/seat outlet (most long haul flights and trains have one nowadays), then it would be OK I think to allow a higher power mode.

You're crippling your performance because you're just beholden to the battery, but today batteries cost nothing and outlets are widely available all over the place.

I could understand if the situation was that batteries were some exotic, expensive component and planes/trains/buses/airports/malls didn't have power outlets everywhere, but this stuff is cheap today thanks to the smartphone/tablet boom.

The other thing they could allow is put larger batteries into the Joycons and let them feed power into the device itself for performance mode (give a warning that you are entering "Performance Mode" and it drains power faster and the Joycons have to stay on), but you could have a battery size comparable to a Steam Deck or ROG Ally if you slapped 1000-1500 MaH batteries into the Joycons and let them basically operate like battery packs on the side of the system.

 

[Stunfisk]

Did anything important happen in November and December? The front page thing hasn't updated since October.

 

[ReddDreadtheLead]

Did anything important happen in November and December? The front page thing hasn't updated since October.

nope.

 

[Meelow]

nope.

Which is wild, seeing how we had a lot of rumors between August to October.

I'm assuming things will start picking up again next month with CES.

Would a well-timed PS5 Pro announcement/reveal kill any hype for a Switch successor announcement?

* Hidden text: cannot be quoted. *

No, a lot of people I've seen don't even understand why a PS5 Pro is happening and it's just an upgrade, the PS4 Pro and Xbox One X didn't hurt the Switch.

 

[SiG]

Would a well-timed PS5 Pro announcement/reveal kill any hype for a Switch successor announcement?

 

[Meelow]

 

[Tentacle-tropes]

Would a well-timed PS5 Pro announcement/reveal kill any hype for a Switch successor announcement?

* Hidden text: cannot be quoted. *

The only way it could feasibly do that would be if the device was a hybrid & I still don’t think it would do anything.

 

[chocolate_supra]

* Hidden text: cannot be quoted. *

 

[lattjeful]

I don't think it is that unheard of a scenario for people though anyway. Carrying a battery charge for a phone or tablet is normal consumer stuff these days, it's not something all that exotic of a solution.

Or they could just a fashion an external battery pack the goes on the outside of the Switch 2, but make it official. The current Switch has many of those as is.

If you have one or you are plugged into wall power/seat outlet (most long haul flights and trains have one nowadays), then it would be OK I think to allow a higher power mode.

You're crippling your performance because you're just beholden to the battery, but today batteries cost nothing and outlets are widely available all over the place.

I could understand if the situation was that batteries were some exotic, expensive component and planes/trains/buses/airports/malls didn't have power outlets everywhere, but this stuff is cheap today thanks to the smartphone/tablet boom.

The other thing they could allow is put larger batteries into the Joycons and let them feed power into the device itself for performance mode (give a warning that you are entering "Performance Mode" and it drains power faster and the Joycons have to stay on), but you could have a battery size comparable to a Steam Deck or ROG Ally if you slapped 1000-1500 MaH batteries into the Joycons and let them basically operate like battery packs on the side of the system.

Those all could work on paper, but I'm not sure how the general consumer would handle it. Phones can get incredibly hot while charging, and that's without them being pushed hard. Not to mention the extra noise that comes from something like a Switch with passive cooling. It's for sure a solid idea on paper, but I'm not convinced something like this would work well.

Plus, imagine the blowback if a game targets console + "Expansion Pak" in handheld, with the consumer being left with a juttery low-res mess if they play it on their normal Switch 2. While the optics of a big budget game like GTA VI running poorly don't look good for Nintendo, I'd imagine having a bad experience unless you spend extra money and carry around more shit looks ten times worse. No, that wouldn't be too dissimilar to a game running bad on the base PS4 and running fine on a PS4 Pro, but I feel like the optics of it happening with the battery pack are worse, even if it would cost less for the consumer. A Hyper Ultra Switch 2 Advance/PS4 Pro is sold as a flat upgrade, and the PS4 Pro did things that the PS4 couldn't like output at 4k. The battery pack would just have portable games properly render at 1080p, or at least get closer to it. It wouldn't be an upgrade like a PS4 Pro; it would just be used to bring subpar ports/games "too big" for the system up to a slightly more playable state.

* Hidden text: cannot be quoted. *

 

[chocolate_supra]

* Hidden text: cannot be quoted. *

 

[Meelow]

Those all could work on paper, but I'm not sure how the general consumer would handle it. Phones can get incredibly hot while charging, and that's without them being pushed hard. Not to mention the extra noise that comes from something like a Switch with passive cooling. It's for sure a solid idea on paper, but I'm not convinced something like this would work well.

Plus, imagine the blowback if a game targets console + "Expansion Pak" in handheld, with the consumer being left with a juttery low-res mess if they play it on their normal Switch 2. While the optics of a big budget game like GTA VI running poorly don't look good for Nintendo, I'd imagine having a bad experience unless you spend extra money and carry around more shit looks ten times worse. No, that wouldn't be too dissimilar to a game running bad on the base PS4 and running fine on a PS4 Pro, but I feel like the optics of it happening with the battery pack are worse, even if it would cost less for the consumer. A Hyper Ultra Switch 2 Advance/PS4 Pro is sold as a flat upgrade, and the PS4 Pro did things that the PS4 couldn't like output at 4k. The battery pack would just have portable games properly render at 1080p, or at least get closer to it. It wouldn't be an upgrade like a PS4 Pro; it would just be used to bring subpar ports/games "too big" for the system up to a slightly more playable state.


* Hidden text: cannot be quoted. *

 

[ertaboy356b]

* Hidden text: cannot be quoted. *

 

[lattjeful]

* Hidden text: cannot be quoted. *

* Hidden text: cannot be quoted. *

 

[Joh]

* Hidden text: cannot be quoted. *

 

[Meelow]

* Hidden text: cannot be quoted. *

 

[bayonetta]

* Hidden text: cannot be quoted. *

 

[Meelow]

Hi REZ ?

No.

 

[Joh]

* Hidden text: cannot be quoted. *

I got no idea then.

 

[NintenDuvo]

If Nintendo does decide to have the reveal in March, i hope they at least give us a heads up at the February briefing, because going all the way to March with no info will be torture

 

[Ojoloco]

* Hidden text: cannot be quoted. *

 

[Meelow]

I feel like you all are just guessing random names now lol.

 

[Hartmann]

* Hidden text: cannot be quoted. *

 

[Ojoloco]

* Hidden text: cannot be quoted. *

 

[Yamanoi]

* Hidden text: cannot be quoted. *

 

[Meelow]

The source is me talking to developers lol.

I already gave everyone a hint earlier lol (actually two!)

 

[Yamanoi]

The source is me talking to developers lol.

I already gave everyone a hint earlier lol (actually two!)

Ok, but why should we trust hints and stuff without any actual proof?

 

[Ojoloco]

Ok, but why should we trust hints and stuff without any actual proof?

Of course

 

[Meelow]

Ok, but why should we trust hints and stuff without any actual proof?

You don't have to lol; you can not believe me if you want. I also didn't say anything crazy or out there.