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StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (New Staff Post, Please read)

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TheSentry said:
Any interesting tidbits, leaks, rumors, or birds singing about Switch 2 come out of TGS yet?

I haven’t read through all the pages yet, so I was just curious.
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None whatsoever unfortunately.

For context, the Gamescomm stuff came a week after it happened so might not hear about it right away if we are getting anything from TGS
 
About the latest job listing post, Miyamoto said this in 2019:

I also believe that we should quickly graduate from the current controller, and we are attempting all kinds of things. Our objective is to achieve an interface that surpasses the current controller, where what the player does is directly reflected on the screen, and the user can clearly feel the result. This has not been achieved yet. We have tried all kinds of motion controllers, but none seem to work for all people. As the company that knows the most about controllers, we have been striving to create a controller that can be used with ease, and that will become the standard for the next generation.
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That's absolutely true. When I see gamers and non gamers, both struggling to play, for example, Switch Sports or Clubhouse Games (and I say this as a personal experience after many Christmas with my family), it becomes clear to me that the technology has failed to deliver what was promised. It's frustrating when something that should be accessible and intuitive actually becomes more complex than the simple press of a button. When I have to explain to others what gyro drift is, or the difference between a 3DoF and a 6DoF controller and why they should put more acceleration to their "too smooth movements", otherwise the sensors won't recognize it (or the opposite! Because sometimes you need to make a slow movement so it won't trigger a wrong input right before doing the real movement you want)... things like that, which are very frustrating for me. It should be as easy as them doing normal movements and everything just working as expected.

I truly hope Nintendo is gonna deliver motion controls that are on par with what I have seen on a Quest 2. For me, this is even more important than horse power, because I really like to bring people who aren't gamers to have fun with something that is accessibly to everyone.
 
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Rhythm Shift said:
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This is just a clip from their podcast released over a week ago that they are slowly releasing in segments to highlight specific topics discussed.

Not a lot new. Rich is basically right in saying they can't comment on specifics until they've actually seen it.
Unlike this thread where we can discuss the theoretical leaked speaks as if they were fact , Rich and team knows those specs too, but can't for obvious reasons discuss them like it's real, even though we have pretty high confidence they are. Even so, still a lot of unknowns, like clock speeds, actual core counts (outside of theoretical maximums if yeilds are an issue) and of course process node.
 
Puikko said:
It would be interesting to see an updated version of this video, as it's already 2 years old. DLSS has come quite a way since then, but has it improved on the lower resolutions?
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Yes, Nvidia has made multiple updates to how ultra performance mode performs. Here it is in Cyberpunk and here it is in Witcher III
Rhythm Shift said:
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Rich is currently testing an underclocked 2050M laptop to get better data here. We've spoken briefly about it, and he is definitely investing this very question.
 
Ghostsonplanets said:
I was reading about process nodes and, somehow, I missed this slide entirely back when TSMC showed their roadmap:
TSMC-Process-Technology-Roadmap-_1-gigapixel-low_res-scale-4_00x-Custom.png


TSMC consider that N4P/5nm family will be a mainstream node by next year. Curious enough, 12FFC/12FFC+/16FFC+/16nm, which is the node where Mariko/Tegra X1+/T214 fabbed, was considered a mainstream node around the same time we got Switch V2/Lite and OLED.

Doesn't mean anything. But perhaps Nvidia and Nintendo had insight of this when they were designing the SoC back in 2020/2021.... (Inhales Copium🫂)

www.anandtech.com

TSMC Outlines 2nm Plans: N2P Brings Backside Power Delivery in 2026, N2X Added To Roadmap

www.anandtech.com www.anandtech.com
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This is actually a really good find, Nintendo obviously would've known all this back in like 2020 I think. If they aimed for N4P in a 2024 product that would be right in line for what they usually do.

The other interesting thing from that slide is it looks to me like a pretty clear progression for a Switch 2 Lite/die shrink in 2026-2027 if Nintendo would want to do that to 3nm.
 
Dekuman said:
This is just a clip from their podcast released over a week ago that they are slowly releasing in segments to highlight specific topics discussed.

Not a lot new. Rich is basically right in saying they can't comment on specifics until they've actually seen it.
Unlike this thread where we can discuss the theoretical leaked speaks as if they were fact , Rich and team knows those specs too, but can't for obvious reasons discuss them like it's real, even though we have pretty high confidence they are. Even so, still a lot of unknowns, like clock speeds, actual core counts (outside of theoretical maximums if yeilds are an issue) and of course process node.
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The only interesting tid bit it seemed to me was they stated that it may have been the Nvidia/Epic (or Nintendo?) rep themselves saying the ray tracing was better than PS5, because the casual developer would have no way of really knowing that unless they had both Matrix Awakens demos on both hardware running side by side to compare.

So if Nvidia or Nintendo are just saying that directly to developers ... that's a pretty bold claim.
 
Is there any notable difference in function between the patent Nintendo filed and what the market labels as “hall effect joysticks”?

www.techradar.com

Nintendo files patent for smart fluid joysticks which could stop stick drift

If you catch my drift
www.techradar.com www.techradar.com


I’m asking because of this quote:

By changing the viscosity periodically between the first viscosity state and the second viscosity state, it is possible to provide the user with an unprecedented feeling on the operation element and an unprecedented operation feeling thereof, while ensuring movement of the original element autonomously returning to the initial position,
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What does it mean to be an unprecedented feeling? Are they implying they’ll be able to provide resistance to the player on the analog sticks?
 
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karmitt said:
What does it mean to be an unprecedented feeling? Are they implying they’ll be able to provide resistance to the player on the analog sticks?
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That's exactly what it means. The sticks can dynamically resist, with the game able to control the degree and the direction of the resistance.
 
oldpuck said:
That's exactly what it means. The sticks can dynamically resist, with the game able to control the degree and the direction of the resistance.
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Neat. Most articles on the patent focused solely on the resolution of drift, so I wasn’t sure if I was overthinking the description. Applied mindfully it does advance the goal mentioned in the Miyamoto quote above:

Our objective is to achieve an interface that surpasses the current controller, where what the player does is directly reflected on the screen, and the user can clearly feel the result. This has not been achieved yet. We have tried all kinds of motion controllers, but none seem to work for all people.
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I hope this is the type of change we see in Switch 2. Not so different from the adaptive triggers from Sony.
 
ReddDreadtheLead said:
It’s more bandwidth and power limited, but if I’m not mistaken RDNA3 WGPs are larger than the SMs in nvidia GPUs. Also, Drake is 8.8, but that doesn’t matter much here.
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I'm not talking the SMs, I mean the cores themselves. We already know how many of each there are (768 on Z1 Extreme, 1536 on T239), so I want to directly compare on a core-by-core basis which is more capable.
 
darthdiablo said:
Came across this in a Chinese forum. Based on translation it's purely theoretical I believe. But I find the chart interesting. Anyone want to critique on the placement of those games based on theoretical performance with NG switch? Do those look realistic?

g1TNJ0j.jpg
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Isn't Detroit: Stay Human a Sony IP? Why would it release on Nintendo?
Much less Spider-Man 2?

Or are they merely comparing theoretical performance?
 
oldpuck said:
Rich is currently testing an underclocked 2050M laptop to get better data here. We've spoken briefly about it, and he is definitely investing this very question.
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Did he gave any ETA about it or he's investigating and once he has enough insights, he'll release? Anyway, I can't wait for it. First, because there's barely any in-depth content about the RTX 2050 online and I think it's the closest we have with the T239 wrt GPU size and power/energy-consumption. Second, because Rich investigative videos are a jam of mine. I still remember his video about DOOM on Nintendo Switch, where he built a Switch-ish performing like PC to test the feasibility of DOOM on Switch and how it could run on the console.
 
MSnap said:
Nekopara is already on Switch
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It honestly kinda baffles me that console versions were made for it considering they were obviously going to cut the thing that 90% of the potential audience plays it for. You're really telling me that people are playing a visual novel where you get to master over a harem of catgirl maid slaves for the plot? (Tho honestly I would love to play a VN where you get to go John Brown to free the catgirls.)
 
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karmitt said:
Neat. Most articles on the patent focused solely on the resolution of drift, so I wasn’t sure if I was overthinking the description. Applied mindfully it does advance the goal mentioned in the Miyamoto quote above:



I hope this is the type of change we see in Switch 2. Not so different from the adaptive triggers from Sony.
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It definitely seems like the kind of thing Miyamoto would want to see in a new controller. I remember (not sure if it was here or elsewhere) but someone presenting a decent example of it would be that if Mario was in a water level, the controls could become a bit more stiff in order to simulate the feeling of moving in water.
 
SiG said:
Isn't Detroit: Stay Human a Sony IP? Why would it release on Nintendo?
Much less Spider-Man 2?

Or are they merely comparing theoretical performance?
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I think it's mostly theoretical, although Detroit: Become Human and Spider-Man are both on Steam, so ports aren't entirely out of the question.
 
MSnap said:
It’s a silly chart. We’re not getting Monster Hunter World on Nintendo.
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I don't see why we wouldn't.

We got 4 Ultimate on Switch, after all.

A bit silly, maybe, but I think many Rise players would be willing to pick up a World Remastered port they can use to fill in a schedule slot, maybe a "soft relaunch" on other platforms with simple next gen patches allowing higher resolutions. Not a fancy release or anything, just a port that functions.
 
Concernt said:
I don't see why we wouldn't.

We got 4 Ultimate on Switch, after all.

A bit silly, maybe, but I think many Rise players would be willing to pick up a World Remastered port they can use to fill in a schedule slot, maybe a "soft relaunch" on other platforms with simple next gen patches allowing higher resolutions. Not a fancy release or anything, just a port that functions.
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We didn’t get 4 Ultimate on Switch. We got Generations Ultimate but that was a different deal entirely.
 
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SiG said:
Those are old comparisons.

Here's the latest version of the Nvidia DLSS Ultra Performance comparison.

3.5.0 compared against 2.5.1 (touted to be the best version of DLSS)
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These do not show 360p DLSS to 720p which was the question (and the debate about a 720p vs. 1080p screen).

720p to 4K DLSS for the Switch 2 is plenty good enough for docked mode.

For very intense ports of games that are already 1080p (with FSR 2+) on PS5, it would be interesting to see what the current standard is for 360p DLSS'd to 1080p and 540p DLSS'd to 4K.
 
ItWasMeantToBe19 said:
These do not show 360p DLSS to 720p which was the question (and the debate about a 720p vs. 1080p screen).

720p to 4K DLSS for the Switch 2 is plenty good enough for docked mode.
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Pretty sure 360p to 720p should be no issue but I really doubt the resolution would need to go that low in handheld mode.

Docked mode might be another matter, but in this day and age, it makes no sense to do the "720p to 1440p and then upscale" when they could just to a direct "720p to 4K" reconstruction while also automatically adjusting for load (DLSS also works with variable resolution inputs as well, so a game could only have momentary 720p to 4k lower bounds while at the upper bounds it will be 1080p to 4k).
 
SiG said:
Pretty sure 360p to 720p should be no issue but I really doubt the resolution would need to go that low in handheld mode.

Docked mode might be another matter, but in this day and age, it makes no sense to do the "720p to 1440p and then upscale" when they could just to a direct "720p to 4K" reconstruction while also automatically adjusting for load (DLSS also works with variable resolution inputs as well, so a game could only have momentary 720p to 4k lower bounds while at the upper bounds it will be 1080p to 4k).
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It would go down to 360p (DLSS'd to 1080p) if the game was extremely visually demanding and if 360p to 1080p actually worked.

So we'll see if this works moving forward to allow for ports like Jedi Survivor.

I imagine the Switch 2 in handheld mode is about 12x weaker than the PS5? So dropping down from 1080p to 360p could get most of the way there.
 
Quoted by: SiG
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karmitt said:
Is there any notable difference in function between the patent Nintendo filed and what’s the market labels “hall effect joysticks”?
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Does someone know the answer to this?
oldpuck said:
means. The sticks can dynamically resist, with the game able to control the degree and the direction of the resistance.
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This feels very Nintendo. I could totally see a switch 2 with this being one of the big gimmicks.
 
redmutineer75 said:
I'm not talking the SMs, I mean the cores themselves. We already know how many of each there are (768 on Z1 Extreme, 1536 on T239), so I want to directly compare on a core-by-core basis which is more capable.
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The CUDA core compared to AMD’s Cores in their CU/WGP? Like the individual core?

Well, that’s a wash :p


I’m not exactly sure what you’re asking me though… it’s better to compare the SM to the WGP/2CUs
 
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ItWasMeantToBe19 said:
It would go down to 360p (DLSS'd to 1080p) if the game was extremely visually demanding and if 360p to 1080p actually worked.

So we'll see if this works moving forward to allow for ports like Jedi Survivor.

I imagine the Switch 2 in handheld mode is about 12x weaker than the PS5? So dropping down from 1080p to 360p could get most of the way there.
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That's assuming handheld resolution is indeed 1080p.
 
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Ngl, The PS4 isn’t 1/12th performance of the PS5, why would the switch 2 be in either mode unless something horrendously wrong happened?
 
ILikeFeet said:
well, Sony kinda did it first with resistive triggers. would be cool to see Nintendo actually implement it, but given how they handle patents before, I don't see it happening
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They didn’t implement resistance anywhere but the triggers, and the gameplay implications are entirely different. Triggers are pretty one dimensional by comparison, and nowhere near as central to a controller experience.

Edit: And to be clear I want adaptive triggers too, even if I’m hearing they’re somewhat controversial. Only thing that concerns me with all these additions is battery life. I really hope it doesn’t come at the expense of too much.
 
So do we think the cool adaptive sticks are going to happen, or are we tossing that onto the same pile as scroll-wheel triggers? Personally, I think adaptive sticks are cooler than scroll-wheel triggers, if only because I can already see how you can throw them in retroactively to so many games to simulative movement through different environments. As opposed to... whatever scroll wheels are supposed to do beyond menu navigation.
 
OctoSplattack said:
So do we think the cool adaptive sticks are going to happen, or are we tossing that onto the same pile as scroll-wheel triggers?
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Neither. I would put it into….”fuel for a much later platform but not this one” it doesn’t seem financially feasible at the moment but would be a pretty strong differentiator for whatever their next evolution in terms of controls ends up being
 
if you learned about a cool Nintendo thing through its patent then that's because it's not being used

supplemental computing device happening any day now
 
karmitt said:
They didn’t implement resistance anywhere but the triggers, and the gameplay implications are entirely different. Triggers are pretty one dimensional by comparison, and nowhere near as central to a controller experience.

Edit: And to be clear I want adaptive triggers too, even if I’m hearing they’re somewhat controversial. Only thing that concerns me with all these additions is battery life. I really hope it doesn’t come at the expense of too much.
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I'd rather opt for GameCube-style two-stage analog ZL/ZR shoulder buttons with digital clicks at the end. Way more versatile.
 
SiG said:
I'd rather opt for GameCube-style two-stage analog ZL/ZR shoulder buttons with digital clicks at the end. Way more versatile.
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I’d be ok with this as well from the trigger side. I wonder if the only reason they pivoted after GameCube was because Wii was such a different concept.
 
karmitt said:
They didn’t implement resistance anywhere but the triggers, and the gameplay implications are entirely different. Triggers are pretty one dimensional by comparison, and nowhere near as central to a controller experience.

Edit: And to be clear I want adaptive triggers too, even if I’m hearing they’re somewhat controversial. Only thing that concerns me with all these additions is battery life. I really hope it doesn’t come at the expense of too much.
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I don't see a resistive stick offering any more of a deeper experience than resistive triggers to be honest
 
ILikeFeet said:
looking it up, the original version was made in Godot while the mobile port used Unity. it's possible the console version also uses Unity as Godot can't have closed sourced code in it. so maybe the porting process was rough on the switch version
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Games built with Godot can (and mostly do) contain closed source code*, the engine just can't include that stuff out of the box. The engine is licensed under the MIT license, which is quite permissive, but means they can't include code which isn't similarly permissive. Games have to abide by the terms of that license, but there aren't really a lot of terms, and notably no copyleft provisions that would limit the ability to combine it with proprietary code.

To make this more concrete using an example, the engine can't include DLSS support out of the box, but I don't think there's any license obstacle to building a DLSS plugin for it (and my understanding is FSR 2 support is in progress, so perhaps such a plugin might materialize soon off the back of that).

EDIT:
That said, I think gdscript is basically trivial to disassemble, but that's an entirely separate discussion.
 
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oldpuck said:
There are 900p games on PS4, but almost all of them (Watch Dogs being the only exception I am aware of) are late cross-gen titles.
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Yeah, of course, not saying there wasn't, just that they were the minority. A few late cross gen titles, a lot of 60fps titles and a few notable exceptions here and there. But if you look at the library as a whole 1080p was definitely the most common resolution on the platform. Not surprising, given it was the lead platform for the generation. I imagine most devs set 1080p30 on the PS4 as their primary visual and performance target and then adjusted resolution for the other systems from there.

oldpuck said:
Will handheld be able to do PS4 resolutions consistently? I think @AshiodyneFX is probably right. I will spare you the OldPuck Spreadsheets on this one, but basically I have a range for my expectations of performance, and the bottom of that range is "Almost every PS4 game will need a little DLSS to get to 1080p in handheld" and the tippy-top of that expectation is "Almost zero PS4 games will need DLSS to get to 1080p".

This is one of the reasons I argued for a 720p screen for so long. I've become more chill about it, but if it's a real concern for you, consider that there are only six games on this list that are cross platform and don't have DLSS support, and only three of those don't have Switch and/or 360 versions already. I'm not too worried that we'll get a bunch of trash PS4 ports when the optimizations to support Switch NG are the same things that cross-platform games need to support PC well.
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That's fair though personally I can't say I agree. I'd rather have a more pixel dense screen. From my experience, hitting native resolution just doesn't matter that much on such a small yet high pixel density screen. EG, most mobile games run at 720p internal but to my eyes that's more than good enough. As long as the internal resolution exceeds "retina" pixel density, scaling artifacts are pretty much invisible, and that's with bi-linear upscaling. I think we're all going to be pleasantly surprised at how crisp DLSS is going to look in handheld mode.
 
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