Discussion Fami favorite 3d Zelda game (post TOTK edition)

[Hero of Hyrule]

We already had a really good thread here which completely disproves this line of thought of WW being the source of inspiration. I'm not going to try and paraphrase it because they did a way better job than I did, but, I can say for one thing, wind waker absolutely wasn't nonlinear in the sense of BOTW at all. They very, very rigidly restrict you from exploring at all until you've cleared the deku island dungeon, which is about halfway through the game and after you've already been forced to visit every major island in the game.

I honestly don't get how people don't notice that wind waker deliberately doesn't let you leave the straight line between windfall and dragon roost, and again, between dragon roost and the deku island directly south. If you try in either case the king of red lion tells you to cut that shit out.

Again, no one is denying that The Wind Waker is more restrictive and linear and generally just poorer in its implementation of these concepts than BOTW is, Aonuma even makes that the thesis of what he is saying in the quoted post. The argument made is that the game is designed with the same intent and structure, it is not as good at delivering it, and ultimately hews closer to the traditional structure, but it is very clearly a BOTW precursor, and the developers themselves consider it one and say it outright in no uncertain terms.

I am not saying Wind Waker is as open as BOTW. I am not saying the physics are as advanced or it is as non linear or non sequential. I am not saying Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword have no influence on BOTW. Every single person who has pushed back on my post seems to be arguing against points I have not made. The simple thing I said was: The Wind Waker would represent modern expectations of a BOTW/TOTK audience, because it was designed to be that, just while being limited by the technical and creative constraints of the time. This is not a controversial statement, it shouldn't even be up for debate when the developers themselves say it.

 

[Kreese]

It's selling the most because viral marketing through tiktok clips and memes eclipses anything any company could do for themselves and totk's little inventions and random moments allow for millions of those. There's no reason to extrapolate it to meaning it's some greater "Zelda Experience" because the vast majority of those people don't care at all about what that means.

And boy does that make me sad because it's the least fun I've had with the series in 35 years.

I think you are skewing things because you don't like the results.

While it is true social media is helping sell TOTK, that's not the reason TOTK is blowing away the other games in the franchise in this poll on Famiboards, why sites like IGN have TOTK as their number one Zelda, and why Nintendo fans are enjoying Zelda like never before.

I've played a lot of games in my time.. even reviewed them.. and it's systems based games that push the medium forward like TOTK that really excite gamers like myself and all the others voting for TOTK in this thread. The boundless sense of possibility in these vast open worlds is staggering, incredibly impressive and fun to play for many of us. Just because you don't think the open-air games are fun doesn't mean that is in any way true for the majority... even among long time Nintendo fans.

 

[Linkstrikesback]

Again, no one is denying that The Wind Waker is more restrictive and linear and generally just poorer in its implementation of these concepts than BOTW is, Aonuma even makes that the thesis of what he is saying in the quoted post. The argument made is that the game is designed with the same intent and structure, it is not as good at delivering it, and ultimately hews closer to the traditional structure, but it is very clearly a BOTW precursor, and the developers themselves consider it one and say it outright in no uncertain terms.

I am not saying Wind Waker is as open as BOTW. I am not saying the physics are as advanced or it is as non linear or non sequential. I am not saying Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword have no influence on BOTW. Every single person who has pushed back on my post seems to be arguing against points I have not made. The simple thing I said was: The Wind Waker would represent modern expectations of a BOTW/TOTK audience, because it was designed to be that, just while being limited by the technical and creative constraints of the time. This is not a controversial statement, it shouldn't even be up for debate when the developers themselves say it.

[Install Base] A Sales Story: Breath of the Wild

Hello everyone ! Over the past weeks, as the Tears of the Kingdom hype was inexorably increasing, I shared on Famiboards the first part of Install Base's latest "A Sales Story" format, focusing on Breath of the Wild. The piece was written by Ishaan, who you might know, and was welcomed very...

famiboards.com

With the move to an HD platform and Nintendo now more willing to commit larger budgets to its flagship games, producer Eiji Aonuma and director Hidemaro Fujibayashi are able to make a case for the next Zelda project to be more ambitious and open, broadly following in the footsteps of Twilight Princess, which Aonuma later says he considered a “starting point” for this new game.

Viewed dead on, the design of Twilight Princess's overworld bears some very obvious similarities to the "peaks and valleys" design of Breath of the Wild. (Screenshot: Monster Maze)​

And there's aonuma saying the same about Twilight Princess. Almost like in both cases, he was just pushing the most recently released game.


Wind waker wasn't limited by the hardware of the time. It was limited by deliberate design decisions completely antithetical to those used in BOTW. It leads you by the nose around the map in a super rigid way exactly like Twilight Princess, and only opens up at all after several dungeons, exactly like Twilight Princess, and any nonlinearity you've assigned to the game is completely imagined on your part because you really want to be able to say it's like BOTW, when it isn't.

 

[Hailinel]

Literally the announcement of BOTW was prefaced by them drawing a line from the original Zelda game, through to Wind Waker, and to Breath of the Wild. They even explained how the same design philosophy had been represented across the three games.

I have put the timestamped portion in the video for you, and also transcribed it in case you don't want to/cannot watch it at the moment:





Like, the Zelda Team itself explicitly draws a line from the original to Wind Waker to BOTW. They say that Wind Waker was an attempt at delivering the same kind of adventure within the constraints of the limitations at the time. Twilight Princess and especially Skyward Sword represent a pivot from that to more focused and puzzle-box style design. Which is absolutely not to say they have no influence or commonality on BOTW, in fact, in terms of moment to moment, Skyward Sword allowing sprinting, jumping, climbing, gliding, having a stamina meter, having crafting, and having gear durability has the most in common with BOTW and TOTK. But I am talking about the larger structure and design and intent of the game. Macroscopically, Wind Waker absolutely is more in common with BOTW/TOTK than TP and SS are.

Now if you feel that players will be more concerned with the moment to moment, sure, you can make the argument, I disagree with it, but it is a valid stance to have. Denying that The Wind Waker was literally designed to deliver the same thing that they then took on again with BOTW is absolute foolishness, the developers themselves say it.

See, that's where you left out a ton of important context. It's not "The Wind Waker was the most influential or most [anything] game to BotW's development." It was a stepping stone somewhere in the middle of the path to get there. That's all. And it's in no way more important than TP or SS in that regard.

Wind Waker was somewhat held back by a combination of technical limitations and rushed development. I don't think needing to use a boat is inherently bad, the sea is the setting and tightly integrated into the story both past and present and it makes sense. To be sure I acknowledge there are flaws in the implementation - one-isle-per-square is too strict, some islands like the eye reefs don't really amount to anything, the triforce hunt gets sloggy (though starting this before the endgame as the game nudges you considerably alleviates it).

It also had the most developed physics system (admittedly still pretty basic) of any Zelda pre-BotW. Even the BotW art style looks closer to Wind Waker to me than Twilight Princess, besides Link being an adult. The influence of Wind Waker on BotW seems very clear.

For me, the boat was (and still is) a non-starter. I bought Wind Waker HD with its improved sailing, and I still cannot stand playing it. But more important to this tangent, the game is still a linear tunnel even though you're on a supposedly open sea. The very nature of Wind Waker's structure is antithetical to BotW.

 

[Hero of Hyrule]

[Install Base] A Sales Story: Breath of the Wild

Hello everyone ! Over the past weeks, as the Tears of the Kingdom hype was inexorably increasing, I shared on Famiboards the first part of Install Base's latest "A Sales Story" format, focusing on Breath of the Wild. The piece was written by Ishaan, who you might know, and was welcomed very...

famiboards.com

And there's aonuma saying the same about Twilight Princess. Almost like in both cases, he was just pushing the most recently released game.

Yes, I already talked about how and why it makes total sense for the map geometry of Twilight Princess to be used as the base for the map geometry of BOTW in a previous post...

I legitimately don't understand what argument you think I am making at this point. What point was this supposed to be addressing?

 

[Hero of Hyrule]

See, that's where you left out a ton of important context. It's not "The Wind Waker was the most influential or most [anything] game to BotW's development." It was a stepping stone somewhere in the middle of the path to get there. That's all. And it's in no way more important than TP or SS in that regard.

I never said it was the most important. Like, even once? I said it is closer to the expectations of a modern Zelda audience than TP or SS would be because it was designed that way. You asked me to provide citation for the latter point, I provided that. At no point have I claimed Wind Waker is the most important inspiration, in fact my posts multiple time state it was one step in a through line going back to the original.

Neither did I deny the importance or influence of the other two games, and I even outright note that on a mechanical level, Skyward Sword is the most significant contributor to modern Zelda. What I did say is that macroscopically it is closer to BOTW than TP and SS are, and that its structure is a bigger influence on BOTW than SS or TP's. I stand by that.

 

[SpaceGodzilla]

I think it's funny how every 3D Zelda thread on fami inevitably turns into an attempt to justify the return to the pre-BotW style. Someone get Aonuma an account

well it's pretty obvious by how many hear absolutely refuse to acknowledge that Aonuma and the Zelda team have zero intention of dropping the open-air formula to go back to the linear 3D zelda's

 

[Hero of Hyrule]

well it's pretty obvious by how many hear absolutely refuse to acknowledge that Aonuma and the Zelda team have zero intention of dropping the open-air formula to go back to the linear 3D zelda's

Yeah, they have outright said they are done with the old formula creatively, and find the newer one more fulfilling. You're not getting back the original style (other than maybe the 2D games) for now, at least not for new flagship games.

 

[Phendrift]

I don't really get why Skyward Sword being the game with the great dungeons stuck so much in the Zelda community. It's true that it's more consistent than Wind Waker, and that the highs are better than most Zelda games, but a lot of dungeons are either extraordinarily linear and easy even for classic Zelda (Skyview Temple/Lanayru Mining Facility) or extremely repetitive (by the time I was done doing the subdungeon areas in the lead up to the Sandship, I was so tired of that area, and Fire Sanctuary is a bit too long too). Even Ancient Cistern, for how great it is, takes until the second half to really become impressive, and it's GOAT status is really carried by that half and the boss because the lead up is just fine. Good, but not impressive. Earth Temple and Sky Keep are the only ones that are unequivocally great all the way through. A lot of the best puzzles aren't even in the dungeons, they're in the overworld since each area is basically a dungeon, and that also makes the dungeons more tiring too.

This isn't to diminish other people's perspectives, just offering my own. I think Ocarina of Time (even if kid Link's are kind of weak) and Twilight Princess had better dungeons or were more consistent, and I'd put Skyward Sword about on par with Majora.

Yeah my recent replay of SS made me realize this. Those first three dungeons especially are really small and not that complex.

I was replaying the game when the TOTK leaks were happening and the dungeon maps were datamined and a bunch of people saying they looked small… I was like please go google the Earth Temple map from SS lol.

Ancient Cistern, Sandship and Sky Keep were still standouts though.

I need to give TP a replay though to judge it. I think my last and only time was 2016, I barely remember it.

 

[Mekanos]

Anyway my general point with this tangent is it’s funny that some people in these discussions act like TP was this huge misfire when WW’s relative commercial disappointment put the future of 3D Zelda in jeopardy and TP was the best selling Zelda until BOTW. It’s also an age thing I think; I know tons of younger people who consider TP a formative experience for them but us jaded old nerds just go “LOTR knockoff OOT 2.0.” Whereas WW has benefitted from people who grew up on the GameCube talking it up, which is a general symptom of that era of Nintendo being looked back on nostalgically despite how bumpy that era was in reality.

 

[AngryAlchemist]

I think it's funny how every 3D Zelda thread on fami inevitably turns into an attempt to justify the return to the pre-BotW style. Someone get Aonuma an account

Yeah, as a fellow contrarian, I'm never going to complain about people complaining. People have the right to complain, and just because they have a minority opinion doesn't mean they're wrong. But damn ... if the whole Old Zelda vs New Zelda thing isn't getting old . It's every thread at this point.

Now excuse me as I go complain about how Pikmin 4 is dumbed down for the masses compared to Pikmin 3 ...

 

[AngryAlchemist]

Yeah my recent replay of SS made me realize this. Those first three dungeons especially are really small and not that complex.

I was replaying the game when the TOTK leaks were happening and the dungeon maps were datamined and a bunch of people saying they looked small… I was like please go google the Earth Temple map from SS lol.

Ancient Cistern, Sandship and Sky Keep were still standouts though.

I need to give TP a replay though to judge it. I think my last and only time was 2016, I barely remember it.

I actually don't mind Earth Temple being so small and easy mainly because the rolling ball gimmick is fun, the boss is amazing and some of the puzzles are pretty good for an early dungeon. But yeah, I find that the dungeon experience is a bit uneven in SS, even with later more complex dungeons sometimes they're too verbose.

I played Twilight Princess for the first time this year and thoroughly enjoyed it! Unfortunately, that comes with the big asterisk that I really don't like the first 10* hours or so at all. It really starts becoming great from the Zora temple onwards and it never really stops after that. It's a very imaginative and fun game and I think some of its creativity is overlooked because of how much the Ocarina of Time comparison is drawn, which to be fair the game draws itself and it doesn't help in that case.

There's some flaws even with later dungeons, but it's a great experience overall with some of the best dungeons in the series. Arbiter's Grounds and Snowpeak Ruins are peak dungeons, and don't get me started on the soundtrack...

 

[Dardan Sandiego]

Yeah, as a fellow contrarian, I'm never going to complain about people complaining. People have the right to complain, and just because they have a minority opinion doesn't mean they're wrong. But damn ... if the whole Old Zelda vs New Zelda thing isn't getting old . It's every thread at this point.

Now excuse me as I go complain about how Pikmin 4 is dumbed down for the masses compared to Pikmin 3 ...

People should complain all they want but I also feel like in this instance in particular it's somewhat futile to get one's hopes up. Sometimes certain genres or game styles just disappear for a while or they die. I haven't had a good railshooter in over a decade. It is what it is.

 

[Hero of Hyrule]

Anyway my general point with this tangent is it’s funny that some people in these discussions act like TP was this huge misfire when WW’s relative commercial disappointment put the future of 3D Zelda in jeopardy and TP was the best selling Zelda until BOTW. It’s also an age thing I think; I know tons of younger people who consider TP a formative experience for them but us jaded old nerds just go “LOTR knockoff OOT 2.0.” Whereas WW has benefitted from people who grew up on the GameCube talking it up, which is a general symptom of that era of Nintendo being looked back on nostalgically despite how bumpy that era was in reality.

Yeah, Twilight Princess was definitely a massive success, and something that was widely beloved by critics and players alike. Anyone denying that would literally be denying facts as they are lol.

 

[AngryAlchemist]

People should complain all they want but I also feel like in this instance in particular it's somewhat futile to get one's hopes up. Sometimes certain genres or game styles just disappear for a while or they die. I haven't had a good railshooter in over a decade. It is what it is.

100%. I've had a few franchises that I started not liking when they went down a direction I didn't like. It sucks, but it is what it is. Sometimes it's best to just move on.

Plus, the Switch duology is so awesome so ... there's that too ...

 

[Mekanos]

People should complain all they want but I also feel like in this instance in particular it's somewhat futile to get one's hopes up. Sometimes certain genres or game styles just disappear for a while or they die. I haven't had a good railshooter in over a decade. It is what it is.

Yeah linear Zelda is responsible for some of my favorite games of all time but ultimately there just isn’t a lot of incentive to pursue it as is. That might change in the future, but I’m not counting on it anytime soon.

I think I said this in another thread but there is a reason virtually no other developers pursued the linear 3D Zelda formula. It’s basically just Okami and the first Darksiders. It’s time consuming and expensive to make with (relatively) little payoff.

There are certain elements I’d like to see from the older games implemented more in the modern ones but it’s hard to look at the quality of BOTW and TOTK and be too disappointed about the future of the series, for me.

 

[Dardan Sandiego]

I think I said this in another thread but there is a reason virtually no other developers pursued the linear 3D Zelda formula. It’s basically just Okami and the first Darksiders. It’s time consuming and expensive to make with (relatively) little payoff.

Absolutely. I definitely agree think that there is a market for them but developers will have to figure out a way to make them much cheaper somehow. Either by lowering the production value or by scaling the games down. I just don't see a modern game like that with 8-9 full dungeons.

 

[Yoshifan31]

That's... very reductive? It's selling as much as it is because the new style of Zelda has resonated with an extremely broad market, not just because it is conceptually appealing, but also because it has been done so well in the new games. That obviously also does lend itself well to organic viral moments on social media, which only perpetuates the popularity, but people wouldn't continue buying the game in droves long after launch if they found the experience to be hollow once they did get it.

You are, of course, free to dislike the direction that the series has taken, and I would understand that (even though I personally disagree), but don't short-sell why the series has become as popular as it has.

It sounds reductive because the fact that sales are that big of a topic is reductive in the first place. It’s simply a dead end to bring up sales because no matter what, the last two games simply do not deliver on certain aspects. No matter the narrative, no matter the legitimate reasons why a game you like would sell well, at the end of the day it’s true that what actually makes it blow up are the memes, and this simply does go beyond anything a marketing campaign or the gaming press can do. What matters is how far the meme reaches, some simply reach further than others. You could argue why Fortnite stands out from other BR games but at the end of the day, what made it blow up is Drake. There’s a lot of arguments on how Dark Souls made From Software not niche anymore, but at the end of the day its memes (git gud etc) reached outside of gaming forums, you saw that shit on 9GAG and the like. Couple the fact that bums like pewdiepie played it, well you suddenly have a game that was initially only known by people that post on gaming forums become somewhat mainstream. Meanwhile something like Shin Megami Tensei actually had all the ingredients to break through its niche and become the “Dark Souls of Final Fantasy” or whatever but it simply reached a plateau, notably because Matador memes only make sense within forums and extremely niche circles

At the end of the day sales numbers themselves have nothing to do with quality, Fortnite has a billion downloads and it’s far from the best TPS ever made. Last time Nintendo rested on their laurels and made sequels to stuff that sold well on the Wii, that lead to launching the Wii U with NSMBU, which didn’t help at all, it didn’t look like a new system. Settling that “the upcoming Zeldas will be like the last two because they sold more” is awfully limiting and far from the argument that would silence this “tired topic”, because not only they draw lines in the sand in terms of structures that the games can take, but it’s also saying that future Zelda games are bound to be grindy which is just depressing

 

[Dardan Sandiego]

get a load of this guy

 

[AngryAlchemist]

It sounds reductive because the fact that sales are that big of a topic is reductive in the first place. It’s simply a dead end to bring up sales because no matter what, the last two games simply do not deliver on certain aspects.

According to who?

 

[Mekanos]

but it’s also saying that future Zelda games are bound to be grindy which is just depressing

Go play other games then lol

It’s fine to not like these games but it’s so disingenuous to basically call them slop that is only popular because of memes. Get real

 

[meatbag]

it’s true that what actually makes it blow up are the memes

No, it’s not. Anyone seriously trying to argue this is delusional. You don’t sell 18 million on the back of internet memes. The simple fact is TotK has mass appeal and great word of mouth.

 

[Phendrift]

I actually don't mind Earth Temple being so small and easy mainly because the rolling ball gimmick is fun, the boss is amazing and some of the puzzles are pretty good for an early dungeon. But yeah, I find that the dungeon experience is a bit uneven in SS, even with later more complex dungeons sometimes they're too verbose.

I played Twilight Princess for the first time this year and thoroughly enjoyed it! Unfortunately, that comes with the big asterisk that I really don't like the first 10* hours or so at all. It really starts becoming great from the Zora temple onwards and it never really stops after that. It's a very imaginative and fun game and I think some of its creativity is overlooked because of how much the Ocarina of Time comparison is drawn, which to be fair the game draws itself and it doesn't help in that case.

There's some flaws even with later dungeons, but it's a great experience overall with some of the best dungeons in the series. Arbiter's Grounds and Snowpeak Ruins are peak dungeons, and don't get me started on the soundtrack...

I definitely think that Twilight Princess was a huge step up in making atmospheric and evocative dungeons - with Arbiter’s, Snowpeak and City in the Sky being standouts. it felt like it expanded what a dungeon could be outside of just temples and caverns that OoT-WW adhered to, even if ironically it’s when the actual gameplay/level design formula started to get a bit stale. Even SS never matched up to that, despite having some really cool concepts like ancient cistern and Sandship.

And yeah, it’s really the OoT comparison that doesn’t do the game any favors. For me, the one time where it seems the Zelda team primarily made a game based on fan feedback - the entire world design harking back to OoT, and the art style. It just makes it a bit less inspired to me. Even the game’s main “gimmick” that every game after OoT had, Wolf Link, felt way less integrated and more like an afterthought (and the worst part of the game too). Which makes me think even more that the original vision was always “bigger OoT”

 

[Truno]

Baldur's Gate 3 was a breakout hit for the series sales-wise because you can finally be intimate with bears. I saw it on Tik Tok

 

[Deleted member 2062]

lol I kinda expected Botw to drop like a stone after Totk but I guess they'll both be on top of these lists from now on.

Anyways OW Zelda is soo good, I'm still playing Totk so for now Botw is at the top for me.

 

[EggmaniMN]

Baldur's Gate 3 was a breakout hit for the series sales-wise because you can finally be intimate with bears. I saw it on Tik Tok

Baldur's Gate 3 was in fact boosted immensely by the vast amount of posts about sex and weird mechanical things you can do in the game yes. It isn't even deniable I have no idea why people are against this idea. It's fact. Believing anything else is delusional. I'm just going to assume people here are extremely out of touch with social media.

 

[SpaceGodzilla]

hoping TOTK wins GOTY at the game awards out of spite now

 

[Hailinel]

Baldur's Gate 3 was in fact boosted immensely by the vast amount of posts about sex and weird mechanical things you can do in the game yes. It isn't even deniable I have no idea why people are against this idea. It's fact. Believing anything else is delusional. I'm just going to assume people here are extremely out of touch with social media.

Do you understand what word of mouth is? You seem annoyed that positive word of mouth helps.

 

[meatbag]

I'm just going to assume people here are extremely out of touch with social media

I’m gonna have to assume you are extremely out of touch with how sales work. Baldur’s Gate 3 did not sell a significant chunk of its ~5M sales just because of viral marketing. Memes make people notice, but it’s the core traits of a game, whether it’s good story or gameplay, that makes people stay, that drives positive word of mouth.

Viral marketing helps, but it doesn’t fully explain sales in the multiples of millions.

 

[Barahir_MJH]

Games can be expensive guys, you might buy an indie game based off a meme but most people won’t just drop 60 or more because they saw something on social media. Not without further investigation anyway, social media can pique your initial interest of course.

Memes also feed off general quality, word of mouth, and sales. Everybody 1-2 Switch had a very memeable horse and leaned into it for marketing but turns out the game sucks. “Luigi death stare” became a thing because Mario Kart 8 was already popular.

I actually do agree sales aren’t the end-all-be-all when discussing the direction of a series, but “it sold because of memes” is incredibly reductive.

 

[Mekanos]

Baldur's Gate 3 was in fact boosted immensely by the vast amount of posts about sex and weird mechanical things you can do in the game yes. It isn't even deniable I have no idea why people are against this idea. It's fact. Believing anything else is delusional. I'm just going to assume people here are extremely out of touch with social media.

I think being out of touch is assuming a 70 dollar game is selling ~20 million copies in a quarter because of memes

 

[Irene]

Baldur's Gate 3 was in fact boosted immensely by the vast amount of posts about sex and weird mechanical things you can do in the game yes. It isn't even deniable I have no idea why people are against this idea. It's fact. Believing anything else is delusional. I'm just going to assume people here are extremely out of touch with social media.

It's not that I don't see what you're getting at. Huge social media coverage, WoM and meme culture can indeed do wonders to spread awareness and even sales of a game. Like, how big was the marketing budget for FNAF? Or Playerunknown's Battlegrounds?

It's just that I think Zelda sits in a somewhat unique position in that it is as compressable (meaning, an easy game to make viral clips out of) as something like FNAF, while being a full-price game with mechanics that are so intricate that even seasoned players can have difficulties with it. It just doesn't have that kind of low-barrier entry that makes people insta-buy it just because they scrolled Twitter for a while. Sure, Fortnite isn't exactly an easy game to play, but it's free.

Also, the first 10m of TotK's sales was during the first three days of release. Three days isn't nearly enough time to build the kind of self-perpetuating YouTube community that would have the power to push copies on its own. Especially not when the game had a drip-feed pre-marketing cycle that suggested that the most memes you could squeeze out of this game was a hot-air balloon.

 

[xghost777]

I missed this thread earlier in the week and while the conversation evolved I still want to answer the original prompt.

1 Majora’s Mask
2 Breath of the Wild
3 Twilight Princess
4 Ocarina of Time
5 Skyward Sword
6 Zelda TK
7 The Wind Waker

I’ll cover them briefly backwards here:

Wind Waker - my least favorite 3D Zelda. The lack of dungeons hurts a lot, the original triforce quest stinks, and I never vibed with the graphics much. The Great Sea is generally very cool though and I do think there are some inspired creative ideas here.

Zelda TK - the core moment to moment gameplay is very fun, but the recycled map is a drag and the two new maps each have their detracting quirks. The game is too big and my dislike of key story elements dragged down my experience as a whole. Still lots of cool stuff here too. I hope building stuff and caves in particular return in some form.

Skyward Sword - I really dug this game and the motion controls are amazing. I really need to replay this one.

Ocarina of Time - I used to ding this one more after recent replays because I found a lot of the puzzles too basic as it established a standard of how these games should work in 3D. I’ve come back around harder though on how impactful it was for me at the time and how it still sticks with me so strongly today.

Twilight Princess - Dungeons are my favorite parts of 3D Zelda games and Twilight Princess has by far the best set. I also just really dig its vibe. The original motion controls were also a ton of fun.

Breath of the Wild - I’ve always wanted to play a game like BOTW and the Zelda team absolutely nailed it. Feels genuinely inspired, the exploration is amazing, and it is a joy to play. Its systems all gel together so well too.

Majora’s Mask - this such an inspired game and experience to me that it still commands so much fascination from me. Termina is my favorite Zelda world to explore and get to fully know and the gameplay riffs on Ocarina’s foundations in interesting ways. It doesn’t feel as comfortable as many of the other games here, but the friction in it is so compelling. A genuine masterpiece.

 

[MrBones]

Man so many of you are in the honeymoon period with TOTK. I hope the game doesn't continue to be overrated as the years go on. Think the flaws will get more discussed and analyzed over the next couple, at least hopefully.

 

[MrBones]

It sounds reductive because the fact that sales are that big of a topic is reductive in the first place. It’s simply a dead end to bring up sales because no matter what, the last two games simply do not deliver on certain aspects. No matter the narrative, no matter the legitimate reasons why a game you like would sell well, at the end of the day it’s true that what actually makes it blow up are the memes, and this simply does go beyond anything a marketing campaign or the gaming press can do. What matters is how far the meme reaches, some simply reach further than others. You could argue why Fortnite stands out from other BR games but at the end of the day, what made it blow up is Drake. There’s a lot of arguments on how Dark Souls made From Software not niche anymore, but at the end of the day its memes (git gud etc) reached outside of gaming forums, you saw that shit on 9GAG and the like. Couple the fact that bums like pewdiepie played it, well you suddenly have a game that was initially only known by people that post on gaming forums become somewhat mainstream. Meanwhile something like Shin Megami Tensei actually had all the ingredients to break through its niche and become the “Dark Souls of Final Fantasy” or whatever but it simply reached a plateau, notably because Matador memes only make sense within forums and extremely niche circles

At the end of the day sales numbers themselves have nothing to do with quality, Fortnite has a billion downloads and it’s far from the best TPS ever made. Last time Nintendo rested on their laurels and made sequels to stuff that sold well on the Wii, that lead to launching the Wii U with NSMBU, which didn’t help at all, it didn’t look like a new system. Settling that “the upcoming Zeldas will be like the last two because they sold more” is awfully limiting and far from the argument that would silence this “tired topic”, because not only they draw lines in the sand in terms of structures that the games can take, but it’s also saying that future Zelda games are bound to be grindy which is just depressing

It's not memes, it's release positioning.

BOTW was a day 1 launch title for the Switch, it was going to sell 10m minimum regardless of its game design or internet WOM. Being critically acclaimed by journalists (overrated at a 97 as journalists have a whimsical boner for Zelda and review games in their honeymoon period, but that's another topic) helped propel sales further, but any Zelda game in that position would have sold incredibly well.

 

[Truno]

Man so many of you are in the honeymoon period with TOTK. I hope the game doesn't continue to be overrated as the years go on. Think the flaws will get more discussed and analyzed over the next couple, at least hopefully.

The BotW honeymoon period is still ongoing, lets see how long TotK's will last

 

[Linkstrikesback]

It's not memes, it's release positioning.

BOTW was a day 1 launch title for the Switch, it was going to sell 10m minimum regardless of its games design or internet WOM. Being critically acclaimed by journalists (overrated at a 97 as journalists have a wismical boner for Zelda and review games in their honeymoon period, but that's another topic) helped propel sales further, but any Zelda game in that position would have sold incredibly well.

What utter nonsense.

 

[MrBones]

What utter nonsense.

Twilight Princess sold 8 million as a Wii launch title. Any competently made Zelda game was going to sell 10 million, minimum, as a Switch launch title.

And no, I don't attribute the Switch hardware's success to BOTW. The system was going to be a success regardless.

 

[Linkstrikesback]

No, you're right actually, what was I thinking. BOTW continues to sell incredible numbers every year to having become one of the top selling games ever including outdoing other titans like 3d mario and Pokémon for the first time in series history, and was described as the greatest game of alltime in a widereaching poll of games journalists and industry vets as late as last year because it's still in a overrated honeymoon period.


And like you just said above, BOTW despite all that acclaim surely had nothing to do with the success of the switch, because as we all know, people were jumping in for the real titan of the console launch, snipperclips.

I'm sure you've also got groundbreaking theories we should all need to hear on why skyward sword hd is selling so terribly compared to botw and totk, despite any competently made Zelda being able to get 10m ez no diff.

 

[SuperFakerBros]

Man so many of you are in the honeymoon period with TOTK. I hope the game doesn't continue to be overrated as the years go on. Think the flaws will get more discussed and analyzed over the next couple, at least hopefully.

Twilight Princess sold 8 million as a Wii launch title. Any competently made Zelda game was going to sell 10 million, minimum, as a Switch launch title.

And no, I don't attribute the Switch hardware's success to BOTW. The system was going to be a success regardless.

It's not memes, it's release positioning.

BOTW was a day 1 launch title for the Switch, it was going to sell 10m minimum regardless of its game design or internet WOM. Being critically acclaimed by journalists (overrated at a 97 as journalists have a whimsical boner for Zelda and review games in their honeymoon period, but that's another topic) helped propel sales further, but any Zelda game in that position would have sold incredibly well.

Lol I'm genuinely impressed how so many folk can remain salty over a game they don't like doing well for this long

 

[Jencks]

lmao zelda discourse is so fucking stupid

 

[meatbag]

Man so many of you are in the honeymoon period with TOTK

Plenty of regulars in the TotK OT have given their nuanced reviews of the game. No, it’s not all sunshine and rainbows. Some of them even outright dislike the game. Some think BotW was better.

This might surprise you, but even as someone who rates TotK as my favorite 3D Zelda, I still have criticisms against it. I think the gameplay loop of the Depths fits awkwardly with the other two maps. I think the shrines concept could have been further refined, the physics puzzles and freebies lessened. Abilities should be able to be tethered to the radial wheel. The list goes on!

And yet! It is still one of my favorite games of all time. Funny how that works, huh?

 

[Hailinel]

Man so many of you are in the honeymoon period with TOTK. I hope the game doesn't continue to be overrated as the years go on. Think the flaws will get more discussed and analyzed over the next couple, at least hopefully.

I just woke up, and after reading this take, I'm ready to go back to bed. This is just "Stop liking what I don't like" in different wording.

 

[Yoshifan31]

According to who?

Being this dense is why this topic keeps being brought up in the first place

It’s been since 2011 that a Zelda surprised me with the unlocking of a new ability (item) and reaching a new dungeon. There is simply no nuance, no compromise anymore when discussing the series. You mention that you don’t want another game with bite sized content, expendable materials and unlocking every ability at the start. You are met with people assuming the worst, talking about honeymoons and how the game’s design still work, and that after all the game sold over 30 million copies. This doesn’t say anything, this is just appeal to the masses to justify you liking a game and not having a problem with its design decisions. Imagine if every Mario discussion end up with mentioning how 2D Mario sold more so we should be content with simply expecting more of that because SMB3 is the purest platformer or whatever. This just isn’t discussion, this is just gloating about sales to justify your personal preference

Go play other games then lol

It’s fine to not like these games but it’s so disingenuous to basically call them slop that is only popular because of memes. Get real

Didn’t call anything slop, I just think that after two 100+ hour games with Shrines and crafting materials in the same map, they kind of exhausted this structure and should do something different

You can basically count on one hand the amount of games that emulate 3D Zelda, none of them are on that level and that’s not even a shot at them. I guess I need to play the THQ one with the edgy characters that look out of an early 2000s graphic card box art but what else is there? The coping around this is just sad, people quickly considered 3D Zelda as dead so they started propping up all sorts of other things as “replacements”. “That Mario Odyssey level kinda feels like Zelda, same thing with Paper Mario”. The latest game that I played that had the most superficial similarities with Zelda was Ys VIII, it’s more of an action RPG obviously but you unlocked new abilities to progress, it kinda had dungeons that eventually had light puzzling. Yet, this game’s level design doesn’t even hold a candle to the N64 Zelda games. People love to prop up “verticality”, yet OOT showed a mastery of this on its first try. The king needs to be here to lead

No, it’s not. Anyone seriously trying to argue this is delusional. You don’t sell 18 million on the back of internet memes. The simple fact is TotK has mass appeal and great word of mouth.

Literally no one said that, the point is simply that memes and being viral are what makes the positive word of mouth reach more people in the first place. You could say that Fortnite is rightfully the king of BR games and got to be the most popular one because it’s free, available on many platforms, it’s cartoony, it’s third person, it has building, etc. Yet, who can reach out to more people than coverage from gaming media or marketing from Epic Games. Drake. Aubrey. Drizzy. 6 God. Champagne Papi. After that you had Travis Scott, Ariana Grande, Christopher Nolan, you name it. It’s not a meme to say that memes are what makes things popular, you literally had them influencing elections, this is no joke

 

[meatbag]

Literally no one said that, the point is simply that memes and being viral are what makes the positive word of mouth reach more people in the first place.

The point is the core game itself has to be good/appealing in order to sell that many copies. The original commenter implied that the only reason TotK sold this well is because of viral marketing, which is plainly not the case.

Yet, this game’s level design doesn’t even hold a candle to the N64 Zelda games

I remember arguing with you about this before. BotW and TotK have level design with different goals than previous 3D Zeldas. You merely prefer one over the other.

This doesn’t say anything, this is just appeal to the masses to justify you liking a game and not having a problem with its design decisions

Conversely, your criticisms of TotK’s “lacking” level design also seem like justifications for why you don’t like it.

 

[Hero of Hyrule]

Man so many of you are in the honeymoon period with TOTK. I hope the game doesn't continue to be overrated as the years go on. Think the flaws will get more discussed and analyzed over the next couple, at least hopefully.

It's not memes, it's release positioning.

BOTW was a day 1 launch title for the Switch, it was going to sell 10m minimum regardless of its game design or internet WOM. Being critically acclaimed by journalists (overrated at a 97 as journalists have a whimsical boner for Zelda and review games in their honeymoon period, but that's another topic) helped propel sales further, but any Zelda game in that position would have sold incredibly well.

lol

 

[Golden]

For me since i didn't finish TotK yet (love it but was just traveling and busy this summer) :

1- BoTW
2- TWW
3- MM
4- TP
5- OoT
6- SS

I think so far ToTK will be around #3. I feel like there were improvements from Botw a lot but i think the world is a bit too big and it makes the story progression too slow. Sometimes i want to do stuff and get a bit frustrated that i've done like a lot but there were no story being made. I feel like that makes the cinematic experience too slow and i'm like... Ganondorf is still in the depths somewhere and nothing is evolving and i don't feel his presence whatsoever.

On a side note, it's nice to see that Zelda still has that variety appeal. Everyone has a different top because every entry has something fresh to offer that will appeal to some and others may dislike.

 

[Selarmor]

1. Ocarina of Time
---
2. Tears of the Kingdom
3. Breath of the Wild
---
4. Twilight Princess
---
5. Majora's Mask
6. The Wind Waker
---
7. Skyward Sword

2/3 and 5/6 are really close and could go either way, but there's 5 distinct tiers for me. Nothing ever has or likely ever will come close to playing OoT for the first time, and no other Zelda game had the bouts of disappointment I felt while playing SS.

 

[AngryAlchemist]

Being this dense is why this topic keeps being brought up in the first place

It's not being dense, it was a rhetorical question. And the point was the absolute irony of your comment going on and on about how the games are only popular for x and y reason, while somehow completely missing that maybe people just don't think that the games are missing the same things you do. The fact that you missed that is astounding. Maybe go get some reading comprehension instead of making more bad posts.

 

[Old Sorta Fan]

Tears of the Kingdom and Breath of the Wild for me. After that in the whole series comes The Legend of Zelda. It had the same magical feeling of exploration and finding new stuff that helps you explore more.

As for the next 3D Zelda’s they are all very close together as they were remakes of OOT. I’ll go in order of favorite to least favorite:

1) Wind Waker - easy comfort food with a unique hellish post apocalyptic world drawn in a saccharine art srhle

2) Twilight Princess - long as heck but fun all the way through, never want to play again because of the long and boring opening sequence

3) Skyward Sword - problems with linearity but fun gameplay that tried a few new things. Clearly was hampered by a lack of development resources.

5) OOT - it was fun in its time but got boring somewhere in the adult timeline. I played through it because it’s a well polished game but got sick of all the 3D puzzle boxes (Soul Reaver did it better) and lack of combat.

5) Majora’s Mask - did not finish it as it’s not a Zelda game. It plays more like a western RPG than an action adventure title. It’s focused on lore and story rather than exploration and combat. Not for me.