Discussion Fami favorite 3d Zelda game (post TOTK edition)

[Leviraps]

IIRC Resetera did run a poll about the best 3D Zelda before TotK released, and yes BotW did get around 50% of the votes. That said I don't think the votes for BotW and TotK are interchangeable, and it would be fallacious to assume so.


Well obviously if you don't like the open air formula, why would you somehow like a game built on that formula? And anyway, the majority of the BotW/TotK fanbase is new blood. Heck for TotK Nintendo even explicitly mentioned that the people buying TotK have not played BotW.

Still playing totk so been out of the loop from most news but damn that’s wild I didn’t know that, got a link (no pun intended) where they said this?

 

[Shakaan]

Still playing totk so been out of the loop from most news but damn that’s wild I didn’t know that, got a link (no pun intended) where they said this?

It was something they noted when they released their latest financial quarter, i can link you this article that mentions it:

Zelda: Tears Of The Kingdom Sells More Than 18 Million Copies In Two Months

Zon-ai can't believe it

www.nintendolife.com

It wasn't worded this way exactly though, they said:

'It went on to state that the vast majority of these sales were from owners of The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild, but stressed that as the weeks went on, a growing percentage of sales were being made by customers who hadn't played the previous title.'

 

[Kreese]

It was something they noted when they released their latest financial quarter, i can link you this article that mentions it:

Zelda: Tears Of The Kingdom Sells More Than 18 Million Copies In Two Months

Zon-ai can't believe it

www.nintendolife.com

It wasn't worded this way exactly though, they said:

'It went on to state that the vast majority of these sales were from owners of The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild, but stressed that as the weeks went on, a growing percentage of sales were being made by customers who hadn't played the previous title.'

Exponential growth I believe.

 

[IsisStormDragon]

I feel like my exact ranking is constantly in flux, and I like all of them, but if I had to try...

1. TOTK
2. BOTW
3. Majora's Mask
4. Wind Waker
5. Ocarina of Time
6. Skyward Sword
7. Twilight Princess

I find that Skyward Sword and Twilight Princess swap places a lot for me. I enjoy both of them a ton, but I don't know if I could call them favorites. Been awhile since I've replayed most of these, so maybe my opinion will shift again when I do.

 

[SpaceGodzilla]

pretty unsurprising the thread pretty much devolved into open world vs traditional 3d Zelda discourse

 

[Kreese]

You’re not wrong, but this is a situation where one replaced the other. As someone who prefers the new style a lot but still does love those old games, I can feel how those who prefer the old ones might have disappointment or even annoyance at the new ones. There’s no way around it for now, this new style is a full replacement for the classic style that Nintendo has shown no intention to go back to.

For SMB3 and Mario 64, maybe before NSMB the pitting against eachother would’ve made sense. But nowadays we have separate branches of 2D and 3D Mario that both get made. At this point, any “traditional” (SMB3) Mario lovers would be more likely to take their grievances out on NSMB for not living up to SMB3 rather than Mario 64 for switching things up and ushering the series into 3D.

The comparisons between open air vs. the old template are unavoidable considering how much more well received the new formula is in terms of sales,

but perhaps these comparisons are selling TOTK short. I'm of the opinion that it's just flat out the best Zelda game.


At the end of the day it's about the overall experience and TOTK is winning this poll and selling the most for a reason... and that's not just because it's open world...

the overall Zelda experience it provides is seen as superior to all other games in the series by the majority here.

 

[lemonfresh]

The comparisons between open air vs. the old template are unavoidable considering how much more well received the new formula is in terms of sales,

but perhaps these comparisons are selling TOTK short. I'm of the opinion that it's just flat out the best Zelda game.


At the end of the day it's about the overall experience and TOTK is winning this poll and selling the most for a reason... and that's not just because it's open world...

the overall Zelda experience it provides is seen as superior to all other games in the series by the majority here.

Sales don't equal quality, not saying totk isn't good but just saying. The new zeldas also are probably boosted by the Switch itself which many nintendo series are having their best selling games on switch like 2d metroid with dread and pikmin 4. The Switch itself is boosting 1st party cause more people owned it than lets say the n64 or ganecube with ocarina and wind waker. Totk selling the best dosent mean it's the best zelda

 

[Kreese]

Sales don't equal quality, not saying totk isn't good but just saying. The new zeldas also are probably boosted by the Switch itself which many nintendo series are having their best selling games on switch like 2d metroid with dread and pikmin 4. The Switch itself is boosting 1st party cause more people owned it than lets say the n64 or ganecube with ocarina and wind waker. Totk selling the best dosent mean it's the best zelda

While this is true, even the votes here (among many long time Zelda fans) skew heavily towards the newer entries... TOTK in particular.

The newer Zelda titles have also reviewed among the best in the series despite it becoming increasingly difficult to do so with the sheer amount of reviews (not to mention competition in the market) these days.

 

[YoboD]

It’s hard to split BotW and TotK just due to how hard BotW originally hit for me. It’s hard to repeat that kind of magic twice, so the fact that I’m still tossing it up evidences just how good Tears is.

They’re by far my favourite of the games listed in this poll, although I still really like all the other 3D games except for Twilight Princess. There’s just something so satisfying about being able to create my own solutions to puzzles and traversal that the more linear games that can’t realistically compete with.

 

[Fifstar]

1. TotK
2. OoT
3. BotW

My first tier. 3 amazing and groundbreaking games.
--
4. Twilight Princess
5. Majora's Mask

2 great games. I would like to love MM, but I only like it.
--
6. Wind Waker

This would be easily in the second tier if it where a finished game.
--
Skyward Sword

Played this on switch. Nice dungeons but other than that the only good thing about it is that it made Totk even more of an relevation.

 

[hk-rara]

1. Wind Waker
2. Skyward Sword
3. Tears of the Kingdom
4. Breath of the Wild
5. Twilight Princess
6. Majora's Mask
7. Ocarina of Time

WW - so this will probably remain my top pick for life. It is what introduced me to the series at the age of like 8. I love the art style and expressions, and I have always been a big sucker for islands and the ocean. Ask a kid I think I spent hours on Outset just having fun before even really starting the story. My kid way of playing definitely enjoyed the environments to the fullest.

SS - so I know it is an unpopular opinion in general. But I really liked the motion controls on Wii and they have a lot of great characters in the game. I again absolutely love the whole style of the game and love the story of Link doing all this just to save his friend/love. This game does have its restrictions, but it holds a special place in my heart. Also, the final battle and lead up to it is one of the best imo.

TOTK/BOTW - This was hard for me to figure out which one goes higher. Like others have also noted, I kinda see them together or as a package of sorts. I did 100% BOTW so I can truly say I have really played that game to the fullest, while for TOTK, even though I finished the story, I haven't used that much of the zonai building mechanics. But since I have almost the same amount of time in TOTK as 100% botw, I will most likely exceed it at one point. I do wish there was more follow through from botw to totk and I miss Kass. Also, not the biggest fan of the fairies needing money to upgrade your armour now.


TP - I always find it funny that my first thought about this game is snowboarding with Yetis lol When I first played the game, I unfortunately did not have a great tv and all the twilight segments were extra dark (like can't see anything lol). The first sewer part was almost impossible for me. When I replayed later, that was no longer an issue, but I had gotten to the final part and didn't really want to finish it a second time. I do love the interesting characters and that shoot out segment was really fun too. And interesting items even if they weren't always the most useful. But again, I love that this all starts with Link trying to say his friends.

MM - I really do love have excentric and eerie this game is and I love all the masks and being able to change forms. I feel like even though I love the concept of a repeating 3 day cycle, it is still kinda stressful for me a but too much lol mainly for trying to do all the side quests. I technically never finished the game. I go up to the end but when I saw that I had to give my masks I was not that happy about it lol I reset the days, made sure that all the side quests were completed in a way where I felt they would be happy afterwards and then save right before the last battle. I do know how it ends, but idk I don't want to give away my masks lol I know you don't have to but I also want to 100% and so I have been stuck in this conflicted state for like a decade lol

OoT - This isn't last because I don't like it (I have liked every zelda game I have played so far), it is just that I find that it is truly the first in the 3D series and found that each game after that had its own extra thing over this game. Still a great game, but I just prefer the other games that have built up out of this game.

 

[Yoshifan31]

You’re not wrong, but this is a situation where one replaced the other. As someone who prefers the new style a lot but still does love those old games, I can feel how those who prefer the old ones might have disappointment or even annoyance at the new ones. There’s no way around it for now, this new style is a full replacement for the classic style that Nintendo has shown no intention to go back to.

For SMB3 and Mario 64, maybe before NSMB the pitting against eachother would’ve made sense. But nowadays we have separate branches of 2D and 3D Mario that both get made. At this point, any “traditional” (SMB3) Mario lovers would be more likely to take their grievances out on NSMB for not living up to SMB3 rather than Mario 64 for switching things up and ushering the series into 3D.

I think it’s way too soon to claim that one replaced the other, people take those interview comments way too literally. I’m still waiting for those other Zeldas with 1:1 swordfighting since that was supposed to be the future

TOTK’s final trailer was a supercut of pretty much every main quest. That was made after they felt like hype levels are low. The month prior release, every post was about the dungeons. The game itself has you collecting what’s essentially the OOT medallions. Therefore I think we can safely say that they were aware of what people missed from the past games in BOTW

On top of that, they have never actually made more than two Zelda games that had the same “mold”. I don’t wanna hear anything about how “actually the whole series is like ALTTP”, OOT is a drastically different game from it, TP is way more different from OOT that people give it credit for, WW is very obviously different. Most series bar something like 3D Mario or FF simply do not have these kinds of changes between mainline installments. So back to my point, they just never made more than two games that really had the same template. They made Spirit Tracks after Phantom Hourglass. Did they make another touchscreen Zelda after that, one for the 3DS for example? Nope. You could argue that Skyward Sword is like “Twilight Princess with the fat cut off”, even that is reductive but both are some of the most linear titles in the series, SS had Tears of Light segments for some reason. Did the Wii U Zelda build upon that? Nope. Both Oracle games were very different from LA, despite having the same engine and dungeon amount. Minish Cap didn’t really iterate on that, its pacing is completely different from these games. Anyway the point is that they really never made more than two games that really had the same mold, once they exhaust the ideas and concepts behind a certain structure they go somewhere else

Now the counter argument is to bring up how well the last two games have sold but that’s just a fallacy, it’s not a good argument and it’s why this “tired topic” will always get brought up in the first place. If you want to use sales numbers to validate Nintendo’s successes, will you feel the same if they decide to just kill all their IPs and focus on Pokemon MMO and Mario Kart GAAS because that’s what makes money? While these sales are huge and brought many new fans, it’s not like Zelda was unknown before anyways. While the Switch is much more appealing than the N64 or Gamecube, I’m sure that a non-negligeable amount of these “Switch boost” sales in games are due to the N64, Gamecube and Wii kids growing up, but each having a Switch for themselves (kind of like Pokemon games having a single save file, most people buy one handheld console for themselves as well) instead of sharing the same home console with their family. Anyway that’s not even the main point, the point is that’s it’s just dishonest to claim that every 3D Zelda will be like the last two ones purely because they sold more. “People that like the older games just want linear games and can’t move on” No it’s not that, this strawman, as well as the idea that the older games are somehow outdated is what brings up this debate in the first place. No, it’s not true that concepts like getting new, permanent abilities that help you to clear challenges is outdated, that’s basically the tenet of adventure (action or otherwise) games in the first place, by that logic games like Metroidvanias are inherently outdated.

The idea of an open world Zelda for the people that prefer the older games is simply a Zelda that has you stumble upon the big dungeons and have you get new permanent upgrades. That’s it, the last two Zeldas don’t hit the spot on that regard because they go too far on things like sandboxes and managing materials. They are not as limiting as the DS titles but they still just don’t hit the spot for many and I don’t think we should take for granted some of their design decisions (breakable weapons, shrines, koroks, getting all your abilities at the start, etc) as mainstays for the series. I think it’s more interesting to expect them to change things up as they always have rather than propping up the ones that sold the best as the only ones that can be built upon on, again they never made more than two Zelda games from the same mold

 

[MaitreWakou]

Tears of the Kingdom is the better game, and I even played it more than Breath of the Wild, but it just didn't succeed to impress me and shock me the way BOTW did in 2017.

BOTW really made me think "this is the future, now we can do games like this...", it's like what Ocarina of Time and Mario 64 were at the time. You just can't replicate that first feeling of video game revolution.

So for me, Breath of the Wild. I think I would put even OoT and Majora's Mask higher than TOTK personally. I love TOTK, but too iterative for my taste. I wanted the Majora's Mask of BOTW, I got its A Link Between Worlds.
TOTK has the best story ever though (or tied with Majora's Mask maybe), the story really impressed me and it was BOTW's story telling techniques finally fully achieved. It was actually a great "puzzle" this time, as there was so many mysteries to figure out from the flashbacks.

My ranking :

1- BOTW
2- MM
3- OoT
4- TotK
5- WW
6- TP
7- SS (I straight up dislike this game lol, even though it had my favorite Princess Zelda until the BOTW/TOTK's one)

 

[SuperFakerBros]

I still haven’t finished TotK yet so my ranking may change but, at least for now, this is where I stand:

1. Majora’s Mask

I’m honestly not sure if any game could beat it out as my favorite game of all time but TotK has potential. I love its strange and unnerving atmosphere from its art style, music, world, and characters. It’s 3 day mechanic has allowed for some of the best side quests I’ve seen in gaming, especially when you’re just stumbling upon them from randomly exploring the town or over-world, with it all being relevant to how people change and feel over those 3 days. Something about them just make you feel so connected to the characters for whom the side quests are connected, trying to help them solve their problems, and the rewards don’t hurt either. Plus, as the moon is close to crashing, you can see how it affects everyone around you, from some trying to run away to others trying to fulfill their duty to some accepting it to some cowering in fear as they pray its all a bad dream. It all reinforces this sense of dread, fear, and feeling of unease. Its dungeons are tightly designed, have great aesthetics and music, and definitely make you think a bit. Aside from the save mechanic being pretty inconvenient, I don’t really have many negative things to say about it.

2. Tears of the Kingdom

I’m genuinely impressed by how much they managed to build upon and improve from BotW. The shrines, side quests, and main dungeons are all definitely a step up. Alongside upgrading armor, enemy encounters are also more incentivized because their drops will let you drastically improve your weapons and, with rupees being harder to grind in the game, they’ll be more necessary. I love how creative I can get with using my weapons to take out enemies + using the fuse mechanic on my arrows to deal with them in more creative ways, like generating wind to knock them into rivers or flying it further to snipe them from afar. Stumbling upon caves and just finding shrines or a quest or even a passageway through some mountains makes them not only more interesting but also encourages you to not glide over everything as much. I’m honestly pretty happy with the Sky Islands and like that I often need to think through how to reach some of them here and there. So far, I’m having a great time but there are things that do stand out as stuff that could’ve been improved upon. It’s still tedious to buy items or upgrade armor. As a spirit, Sidon is completely useless outside of his dungeon and using the spirits are more of a hassle than they should be. Like their abilities should’ve been able to be activated more like, say, Revali’s Gale from BotW. I like the overall vibes and aesthetics from the Depths but it lacks the variety of things to do and see that the main world has. It’s weird to me how most folk seem to have amnesia for Link, outside of the story specific characters, and I’m sort of left wondering if even the earliest events in its story is still set WAY after all of the games in the series. It’s a fantastic game overall but it’s flaws do stick out to me, more so than BotW’s even if I like TotK more

3/4. Ocarina of Time

It’s the game that set the standard for the classic 3D Zeldas and honestly, when it came to that traditional formula, it did it the best. It nailed the dungeons, atmosphere, pacing, and aesthetics all together. The rest of the classic 3D Zeldas do do a lot of those well, a few even better, but not all of them. It’s honestly incredible how much, in particular, the atmosphere and pacing make the game just so easy and comforting to go back to. It makes it feel like a sort of blend between classic fairy-tales and Tolkien, adventure and also giving it some warmth. Even now, it all sticks with me. The main thing I’d say it’s worse at than most of the other classic 3D Zeldas is the partner character, Navi, but I honestly never disliked or had an issue with her. Its overworld is also not the best but I’d honestly take it over what most of the classic 3D Zeldas went for as it’s generally small and still helps sell the overall atmosphere. It’s small so it doesn’t feel as tedious as, say, WWs and TPs + its lack of stuff do doesn’t stick out as much either. Time has aged it but it’s honestly impressive how good of a game it still is. Up the production values and polish and I’d say it’d still hold up

3/4. Breath of the Wild

I can honestly go back and forth between OoT and BotW here. They’re both just that great. OoT just has the slightest thinnest edge in not feeling as outdone by its successor(s). Despite liking TotK more, there are aspects to BotW I’m a bigger fan of. It has less involved mechanics than the Ultrahand or Fusing but that also means that the overall pacing for exploration is smoother as there’s less stopping going on. BotW’s narrative feels less messy and it’s more vague story elements meant you could theorize more over its place in the timeline and how past events lead up to it. Since there’s less stuff to keep track of and less layers to the world, you can more easily pick up and play it as well. That being said, with time as you very quickly level up your armor, enemy encounters become less necessary, especially as you’ll have some great weapons by the end, and the more repetitive nature of the formula does come up more as there’s less of a variety of stuff to do than TotK. I won’t pretend that I don’t miss the more classic 3D Zelda dungeons but I also don’t think that they would work here. An expansion on TotK’s dungeons but with a bit more lock and key design, more like TotK’s Wind Temple, would be the direction I’d want to see here. But with how much it upended a lot of the more trope-y elements of modern open world games, such as following an arrow or unlocking a tower to reveal everything within that area or constantly rail-reading you, it did a lot to restore my faith in open world games and it’s a much needed shake-up for the series, which was just becoming more and more defined by dungeons and rail-roading you, preventing you from exploring, like older games did. It’s influence in open world games is more than well deserved

5/6. Wind Waker

Out of all of the Links, the one here might just be my favorite. He’s the one with the most personality and expressions. Plus the art-style holds up so well and the game has a ton of charm. I can also say this Ganondorf is perhaps the most sympathetic and understandable as well. But, compared to the rest of its type, it falls short when it comes to the dungeons, with part of it straight up feeling incomplete as one of the orbs is gained from just sailing to an area instead of doing a dungeon and the rest not having the sort of complexity or set pieces as the rest of the series. Plus I can’t say the sailing is necessarily all that enjoyable as it can be pretty tedious and a lot of the islands along the way don’t have much to offer. It’s still a really good game but its rushed development is painfully obvious

5/6. Twilight Princess

As much as its art-style has dated, I honestly genuinely like it. It just needs more powerful hardware, like the likes of the Switch or upcoming Switch 2, to make it properly shine through. It’s very Tolkien-sequel and fits the more adventurous feel I want out of my Zelda games. I loved Midna as the partner character. Her character growth from ally for convenience to genuine friend as she spends more time with Link and Zelda is honestly great, even if pretty standard, and she has a lot of personality. Easily the best partner character in the series. Plus the dungeons are a nice step up from WW and a great time as well, with fun set pieces, more epic boss battles, and some interesting items, even if a lot of them were very situational. Unfortunately, the game does have its share of pacing problems, more so than WW, that do bog it down and it doesn’t have as much to help it stand out as the other classic 3D Zelda games do. Still, it’s a really good game and one I’d recommend to just about anyone looking for a great adventure game

7. Skyward Sword

After going back to it for the first time in almost 10 years, yeah, it’s flaws stick out to me more than ever, especially after BotW / TotK and going through the other classic 3D Zeldas again. That being said, I still consider it to be a good game and it has its strengths, a few even above some of the other games. I’ll start with the positives. Its painterly art-style, music, and overall cinematics fit so well for what they were going for and its dungeons have genuinely unique themes and great level design going for them. I also honestly do appreciate them trying to make the individual areas you explore to be more tightly designed areas you explore before you reach the dungeon. Plus it does have elements that made it over into the open air Zeldas, such as the stamina meter and upgrading equipment (in BotW/TotK‘s case, armor). Unfortunately, the game is bogged down by constant padding towards the end and pacing issues with Fi interrupting far more often than she should be. Never mind that Fi is honestly a worse partner than more or less any of the others throughout the classic 3D Zelda line, which is kinda baffling after how good Midna was. Also, for a series that used to pride itself on exploration, SS is fairly limited in that and keeps you in these small enclosed areas with a borderline hub-world in the sky world. Now the HD version fixes the pacing issues but not the padding or other problems. I can definitely understand why a lot of folk dislike the game but I still liked it for what it was.

 

[VegiHam]

TotK is the best

But my favourite is WW; because that's the one I played together with my little bro

 

[Irene]

Ah, 3D Zelda.

My favourite thing in gaming, bar none. I absolutely revere the Zelda series, but I am in general not very much of a 2D player, so I've always gravitated towards the more spacious 3D entries, where I feel the series can truly blossom into something more ambitious, and filled to the brim with potential.

I consider every single 3D Zelda to be a personal 10/10. Ranking is tough, but I think it'd be:

1. Tears of the Kingdom
2. Breath of the Wild
3. Twilight Princess
4. Ocarina of Time
5. Majora's Mask
6. The Wind Waker
7. Skyward Sword

TotK is just the most brilliant, fun, freeing, liberating and exhilarating game I've ever played. It's all I've ever dreamed of when it comes to something that takes its time to fully explore the endless potential of video games. It has dethroned Breath of the Wild pretty hard, but BotW still has a lot going for it, especially in terms of puzzle solving and worldbuilding.

Twilight Princess, then, was my favourite Zelda before Breath of the Wild dethroned that one. TP is more or less the perfect game to me, it has everything that an unforgettable adventure should have in order to remain legendary for decades: it has the story, the puzzles, the world, the vibes and the abilities that all add up to a phenomenal experience. Next on the list, Ocarina of Time is astounding in the way that it has stood the test of, well, time. It just stands tall in so many aspects when it comes to Zelda: Fantastic dungeon design, enticing secrets, an impactful yet simple story and excellent pacing.

I adore Majora's Mask to no end as well. It is very different to its contemporaries, but nevertheless a brilliant piece of art. The atmosphere, the characters and the agency the player gets to get to know them just makes the experience so special and emotional. But I think it's here that 3D Zelda starts to show flaws, as I think the actual game parts of MM - the pre-dungeon tasks in particular - is a step down compared to other entries in the franchise. Wind Waker, similarly, has the very best story in any Zelda, unforgettable characters, and a gorgeous world - both technically as well as aesthetically - but falls a bit short on the dungeon side of things. Lastly, Skyward Sword is its own league when it comes to gameplay, as I think it's so engaging in its level and dungeon design, but it's being a bit bogged down by padding, repetitiveness and some tacked on elements.

 

[EggmaniMN]

The comparisons between open air vs. the old template are unavoidable considering how much more well received the new formula is in terms of sales,

but perhaps these comparisons are selling TOTK short. I'm of the opinion that it's just flat out the best Zelda game.


At the end of the day it's about the overall experience and TOTK is winning this poll and selling the most for a reason... and that's not just because it's open world...

the overall Zelda experience it provides is seen as superior to all other games in the series by the majority here.

It's selling the most because viral marketing through tiktok clips and memes eclipses anything any company could do for themselves and totk's little inventions and random moments allow for millions of those. There's no reason to extrapolate it to meaning it's some greater "Zelda Experience" because the vast majority of those people don't care at all about what that means.

And boy does that make me sad because it's the least fun I've had with the series in 35 years.

 

[Hailinel]

It's selling the most because viral marketing through tiktok clips and memes eclipses anything any company could do for themselves and totk's little inventions and random moments allow for millions of those. There's no reason to extrapolate it to meaning it's some greater "Zelda Experience" because the vast majority of those people don't care at all about what that means.

And boy does that make me sad because it's the least fun I've had with the series in 35 years.

"It's selling because memes" is both blatantly inaccurate and grossly sells the game short on its own merits.

 

[Dragoncaine]

It's selling the most because viral marketing through tiktok clips and memes eclipses anything any company could do for themselves and totk's little inventions and random moments allow for millions of those. There's no reason to extrapolate it to meaning it's some greater "Zelda Experience" because the vast majority of those people don't care at all about what that means.

And boy does that make me sad because it's the least fun I've had with the series in 35 years.

You think the viral marketing is making it sell more copies than the fact that it's a follow up to one of the most acclaimed games ever made and is pretty much equally acclaimed, with the most perfect scores of all time on MC?

 

[Hero of Hyrule]

It's selling the most because viral marketing through tiktok clips and memes eclipses anything any company could do for themselves and totk's little inventions and random moments allow for millions of those. There's no reason to extrapolate it to meaning it's some greater "Zelda Experience" because the vast majority of those people don't care at all about what that means.

And boy does that make me sad because it's the least fun I've had with the series in 35 years.

That's... very reductive? It's selling as much as it is because the new style of Zelda has resonated with an extremely broad market, not just because it is conceptually appealing, but also because it has been done so well in the new games. That obviously also does lend itself well to organic viral moments on social media, which only perpetuates the popularity, but people wouldn't continue buying the game in droves long after launch if they found the experience to be hollow once they did get it.

You are, of course, free to dislike the direction that the series has taken, and I would understand that (even though I personally disagree), but don't short-sell why the series has become as popular as it has.

 

[Cubs017]

It's Tears of the Kingdom for me, having surpassed Wind Waker as my all-time favorite game.

01. Tears of the Kingdom
02. Wind Waker
03. Breath of the Wild
04. Ocarina of Time
05. Twilight Princess
06. Skyward Sword
07. Majora's Mask

MM just doesn't really click for me. I appreciate a lot of the aspects of the game (cool characters, world, dungeons, etc.) but the restarting time thing just doesn't work for me.

 

[brainchild]

People pitting the linear and open world Zeldas against each other will never make sense to me outside of trying to knock one down a peg

It's like comparing Super Mario Bros. 3 to Super Mario 64, they're completely different styles of games despite shared iconography and some gameplay ideas

We can stop the charade when traditional fans get another traditional 3D Zelda, which will probably never happen, so the "war" continues.

 

[brainchild]

That's... very reductive? It's selling as much as it is because the new style of Zelda has resonated with an extremely broad market, not just because it is conceptually appealing, but also because it has been done so well in the new games. That obviously also does lend itself well to organic viral moments on social media, which only perpetuates the popularity, but people wouldn't continue buying the game in droves long after launch if they found the experience to be hollow once they did get it.

You are, of course, free to dislike the direction that the series has taken, and I would understand that (even though I personally disagree), but don't short-sell why the series has become as popular as it has.

I also think anyone who honestly believes that the masses hate the old Zelda games are truly mistaken. There is this sentiment that people avoided older Zelda games because they weren't open world, and I don't see any actual evidence for that. Linear games are alive and well. They're just their own thing and Nintendo hasn't found a way to market traditional Zelda games in a way that will garner the interest of more than a few million people. But given that Skyward Sword HD remaster sold over 4 million copies on Switch, I think a full blown AAA "cinematic" 3D Zelda packaged as Nintendo's "Uncharted" would perform phenomenally well on the Switch with the right marketing. But again, it'd be its own thing and couldn't replace open air Zelda.

 

[meatbag]

Nintendo hasn't found a way to market traditional Zelda games in a way that will garner the interest of more than a few million people

As someone who is personally ambivalent to the pre-BotW 3D Zeldas, it’s definitely less a problem with the linear structure and more with the execution. The full blown cinematic Zelda you suggested is one possible approach. Take some cues from Uncharted, God of War and The Last Of Us in the storytelling and presentation departments, then mix it with that classic, delectable lock-and-key design. It’s not impossible.

 

[brainchild]

As someone who is personally ambivalent to the pre-BotW 3D Zeldas, it’s definitely less a problem with the linear structure and more with the execution. The full blown cinematic Zelda you suggested is one possible approach. Take some cues from Uncharted, God of War and The Last Of Us in the storytelling and presentation departments, then mix it with that classic, delectable lock-and-key design. It’s not impossible.

Day 1 for me if Nintendo ever does this. I don't think they currently have any game like this and I think traditional 3D Zelda would fit the bill really well.

Of course, dev resources would split and they'd need a dedicated team for it, but I think they could justify it if it turned out to be a system seller.

 

[Irene]

The line of reasoning I've seen here and there that suggests that TotK's smash hit popularity is largely because of videos like this one is one I feel sort of misses the point that while TotK has received a whole subculture of these kinds of players, they sort of still make up a fraction of a fraction of the entire audience, both in regards to people who don't plan on touching the game, as well as people with 500 hours of playtime.

The kind of self-sustained marketing that viral clips allows for is certainly doing a fantastic job in keeping the conversation going, but the thing is that the value in this kind of content is about watching it and scrolling it, rather than put in the work needed to come to grips with the game enough to make Metal Gear. Look at how massive "self-perpetuated by viral internet meme culture" games have fared on the market (Undertale, for example) where the surrounding hype and hilarious clips reflects very little on how many people bought the game and for what reason.

I find it hard to believe that people shell out $60 in order to put shit together only to join the Hyrule Engineers subreddit the day after, rather than believing that people shell out $60 because of it being a highly improved and expanded sequel to one of the biggest Nintendo games ever.

(EDIT: Missed to quote, but was in response to above comment RE: TotK sales)

 

[EggmaniMN]

You think the viral marketing is making it sell more copies than the fact that it's a follow up to one of the most acclaimed games ever made and is pretty much equally acclaimed, with the most perfect scores of all time on MC?

Yes I 100% believe most people don't care about metacritic scores even slightly, have no idea what game reviews even are, and will buy a game because of tiktok influencers. I believe that happens with the general public 1000000000x more. They don't care at all about IGN or eurogamer or metacritic or opencritic or any critic. They see funny influencer do wild thing, they want to mess with that too.

This has already happened plenty of times. We can just look at influencers getting Skate 3 sales back on the map. There are tons of examples like that. Elden Ring's player base is like 20x every other Souls game. Do you think any of those people looked up reviews? Absolutely not. To suggest that is ludicrous. The public doesn't care.

Meanwhile you have plenty of examples of highly rated games even from loved series like Zelda that don't sell anywhere close, have no media presence, no viral marketing. I don't know how anyone could believe it isn't a gargantuan part of marketing. Where do people think Among Us came from in the public mind?

 

[Hailinel]

Yes I 100% believe most people don't care about metacritic scores even slightly, have no idea what game reviews even are, and will buy a game because of tiktok influencers. I believe that happens with the general public 1000000000x more. They don't care at all about IGN or eurogamer or metacritic or opencritic or any critic. They see funny influencer do wild thing, they want to mess with that too.

This has already happened plenty of times. We can just look at influencers getting Skate 3 sales back on the map. There are tons of examples like that. Elden Ring's player base is like 20x every other Souls game. Do you think any of those people looked up reviews? Absolutely not. To suggest that is ludicrous. The public doesn't care.

Meanwhile you have plenty of examples of highly rated games even from loved series like Zelda that don't sell anywhere close, have no media presence, no viral marketing. I don't know how anyone could believe it isn't a gargantuan part of marketing. Where do people think Among Us came from in the public mind?

What makes it so impossible for you to believe that the game is selling on its own merits, especially considering the sales of its direct predecessor, which itself was the premiere launch title for the Switch?

Also, word of mouth is a thing. Every game that sells well thrives on it to a degree, just as the most successful pieces of any other media, whether they be books, movies, or what have you. There's no conspiracy of meme-brained sheep out there that made TotK a success.

Hell, media that tries to actively sell on memes usually falls on its face. Snakes on a Plane was reshot and marketed to play on its pre-release memes, and it tanked. Morbius was a meme magnet and it broke even at best.

 

[freedomseekr]

We can stop the charade when traditional fans get another traditional 3D Zelda, which will probably never happen, so the "war" continues.

Real talk, the open world Zeldas have more in common with the OG "traditional" 3D Zeldas, i.e. OoT to (maybe) TWW.

The poll shows that between Majora's Mask and Breath of the Wild there's a noticeable dip and while 199 votes (as of August 26th, 2023 at 19:22 CEST) are hardly what any statistician would call representative of the whole fanbase, I think it's a worthwhile trend that the games that are the most popular here are the two games that are considered foundational to 3D Zelda (Ocarina of Time and Breath of the Wild) as well as their two sequels (Majora's Mask and Tears of the Kingdom) with what some consider "the traditional 3D Zeldas" being less popular.

I've expedited about this a while ago, but to me, these four games share more commonalities than the "middle period" of 3D Zelda, where the games became increasingly linear and focussed on fanservice nods and gameplay gimmicks while making exploration, a foundational building block of the series since its inception, less important or so cumbersome its intrinsic value to the player gets lost. To me, the last game that did that founding block fairly well was the at the time much maligned The Wind Waker and while it is somewhat linear in its execution, it's still much more in line with what I think makes for a good Zelda game than Twilight Princess or Skyward Sword.

I get people want more involved dungeons back and I'm chill with that. But if we ever get a more dungeon-oriented Zelda again... the place to look for should be OoT and MM and less TWW to SkSw.

 

[Barahir_MJH]

Real talk, the open world Zeldas have more in common with the OG "traditional" 3D Zeldas, i.e. OoT to (maybe) TWW.

The poll shows that between Majora's Mask and Breath of the Wild there's a noticeable dip and while 199 votes (as of August 26th, 2023 at 19:22 CEST) are hardly what any statistician would call representative of the whole fanbase, I think it's a worthwhile trend that the games that are the most popular here are the two games that are considered foundational to 3D Zelda (Ocarina of Time and Breath of the Wild) as well as their two sequels (Majora's Mask and Tears of the Kingdom) with what some consider "the traditional 3D Zeldas" being less popular.

I've expedited about this a while ago, but to me, these four games share more commonalities than the "middle period" of 3D Zelda, where the games became increasingly linear and focussed on fanservice nods and gameplay gimmicks while making exploration, a foundational building block of the series since its inception, less important or so cumbersome its intrinsic value to the player gets lost. To me, the last game that did that founding block fairly well was the at the time much maligned The Wind Waker and while it is somewhat linear in its execution, it's still much more in line with what I think makes for a good Zelda game than Twilight Princess or Skyward Sword.

I get people want more involved dungeons back and I'm chill with that. But if we ever get a more dungeon-oriented Zelda again... the place to look for should be OoT and MM and less TWW to SkSw.

Yeah I’d say TP and SS both overreacted to the previous game’s critiques - they have good elements but don’t entirely hold together as a whole. Wind Waker is somewhat held back by tech and being rushed, but does have some real vision behind it and it’s easier for me to forgive its flaws than the next two.

OoT is the only game in the “traditional” mold that truly keeps all the elements balanced. And despite reusing assets or maybe because, MM is the only one after that entirely succeeds at forging its own identity. I don’t think either SS and TP manage to integrate their story fully into the world either (TP does in parts but the second half of the story feels kind of bolted on) which OoT/MM did brilliantly and WW mostly did despite some shortcomings.

Also this may be a little controversial but I would have liked to see the “traditional” series dungeon design continue in MM’s direction. They aren’t perfect and have bits of jank (climbing back up Snowhead after a fall sucks), but I admire their complexity, combination of a large-scale central puzzle and smaller ones, use of many items, and labyrinthine layout. The next few games streamlined and simplified the dungeons, and they were still good but I prefer the general design philosophy of the 64 dungeons.

 

[Mekanos]

Twilight Princess sold nearly twice what Wind Waker did. The idea that Wind Waker represents anything closer to what mainstream audiences want out of Zelda is entirely unfounded and largely part of the revisionism around Wind Waker in the last 20 years.

 

[Barahir_MJH]

TP came out on a very successful system’s launch at a time in the zeitgeist when “serious and mature and LotR-ish” was big. Wind Waker also got a massive backlash due to its art style (still somewhat ongoing when TP released), which now virtually everyone agrees was unfair so some level of revisionism is bound to happen. I believe Wind Waker HD also outsold Twilight Princess HD, which you can partly attribute to the Wii U lifecycle but similar external factors apply to the original games.

Anyway I was mostly sharing my own views on the games and not really thinking in terms of sales.

 

[Mekanos]

TP came out on a very successful system’s launch at a time in the zeitgeist when “serious and mature and LotR-ish” was big. Wind Waker also got a massive backlash due to its art style (still somewhat ongoing when TP released), which now virtually everyone agrees was unfair so some level of revisionism is bound to happen. I believe Wind Waker HD also outsold Twilight Princess HD, which you can partly attribute to the Wii U lifecycle but similar external factors apply to the original games.

Anyway I was mostly sharing my own views on the games and not really thinking in terms of sales.

Maybe us nerds on the internet. General audiences rejecting the art style was why we got TP to begin with. A Toon Link game is not selling 30 million copies, I can tell you that much.

There's a tendency to downplay Twilight Princess' success and impact in online discussions that doesn't hold up under scrutiny. Aonuma outright said Twilight Princess' big maps were the basis for BOTW.

 

[Hero of Hyrule]

I also think anyone who honestly believes that the masses hate the old Zelda games are truly mistaken. There is this sentiment that people avoided older Zelda games because they weren't open world, and I don't see any actual evidence for that. Linear games are alive and well. They're just their own thing and Nintendo hasn't found a way to market traditional Zelda games in a way that will garner the interest of more than a few million people. But given that Skyward Sword HD remaster sold over 4 million copies on Switch, I think a full blown AAA "cinematic" 3D Zelda packaged as Nintendo's "Uncharted" would perform phenomenally well on the Switch with the right marketing. But again, it'd be its own thing and couldn't replace open air Zelda.

I don't think there is any evidence that people don't like traditional Zelda. OOT sold nearly 8 million on a system that sold 32 million, Twilight Princess sold nearly 9 million, even Link's Awakening sold 6.5 million before the Switch version. Zelda games have either suffered from being on hardware with low install base previously, or their release timing being when most of the install base has already moved on. I think that a new traditional AAA 3D Zelda game on the Switch with the full brunt of the marketing a new flagship release gets would easily sell 15-20 million (at least), which are not numbers to scoff at. I do, however, think that a new traditional 3D Zelda game would not be as popular as the open world games, not because people hate the old style, but because open world is ultimately inherently more popular than non open world.

I think the real reason the older style is done comes down less to sales and more to creative ambitions. Fujibayashi has expressed his preference for the new style multiple times, while Aonuma has outright stated he hated how much the old style shackled him (and he has been saying some variation of this going all the way back to the pre-Twilight Princess days!), and how much more creatively fulfilling he finds the new style. They will continue to do the new style because that's what they want to make. But if they were to make a traditional Zelda game, I think it would still end up being a huge success, especially on a system with a massive and engaged install base like the Switch.

 

[balgajo]

I don't think there is any evidence that people don't like traditional Zelda. OOT sold nearly 8 million on a system that sold 32 million, Twilight Princess sold nearly 9 million, even Link's Awakening sold 6.5 million before the Switch version. Zelda games have either suffered from being on hardware with low install base previously, or their release timing being when most of the install base has already moved on. I think that a new traditional AAA 3D Zelda game on the Switch with the full brunt of the marketing a new flagship release gets would easily sell 15-20 million (at least), which are not numbers to scoff at. I do, however, think that a new traditional 3D Zelda game would not be as popular as the open world games, not because people hate the old style, but because open world is ultimately inherently more popular than non open world.

I think the real reason the older style is done comes down less to sales and more to creative ambitions. Fujibayashi has expressed his preference for the new style multiple times, while Aonuma has outright stated he hated how much the old style shackled him (and he has been saying some variation of this going all the way back to the pre-Twilight Princess days!), and how much more creatively fulfilling he finds the new style. They will continue to do the new style because that's what they want to make. But if they were to make a traditional Zelda game, I think it would still end up being a huge success, especially on a system with a massive and engaged install base like the Switch.

I think in a system like Switch they would sell the same >50% percentage of the 3d Mario counterpart as always. I can also see a popular one like TP selling 15 - 20M when Odyssey sells 26M. Though BOTW changed this and now 3d Mario is lagging behind.

 

[Cubs017]

Twilight Princess sold nearly twice what Wind Waker did. The idea that Wind Waker represents anything closer to what mainstream audiences want out of Zelda is entirely unfounded and largely part of the revisionism around Wind Waker in the last 20 years.

TP was also on a MUCH bigger platform. Wii dwarfed the GameCube.

For what it's worth, WWHD sold about twice as much as TPHD. The nostalgia and love for Wind Waker is real. I think a lot of people missed it on GCN and really enjoyed it once they finally played it.

 

[Sadist]

You know the wild thing?

Not one of those seven are bad. They are at least great. I don't think a lot of series can say that.

In my humble opinion:

01. Breath of the Wild
02. Ocarina of Time
03. Tears of the Kingdom
04. Wind Waker
05. Majora's Mask
06. Skyward Sword
07. Twilight Princess

I know lots of people love TP, but as admitted by the team, that game was a reaction to the "ZELDA IS TEH KIDDY" movement after Wind Waker. It is essentially OoT redux to me, so it's my least favourite of the bunch. Still a good game, with some great things going for it (Midna! Some good ass dungeons) but I feel that in the end this particular game just did not cut it.

Skyward Sword was proof motion controls could be absolutely amazing. Has some of the best dungeons in the game, easily. Awesome boss battles too. Groose! Shame about Fi and the Imprisoned...

Majora's Mask, WInd Waker, both fantastic games. The former in regards to its darker tones and Termina being very interesting. Wind Waker for the neat direction it took. And man, that Ganondorf.

Tears of the Kingdom is an evolution, but damn one hell of an evolution.

Ocarina of Time and Breath of the Wild are the goats to me.

 

[Hero of Hyrule]

I think in a system like Switch they would sell the same >50% percentage of the 3d Mario counterpart as always. I can see a popular one like TP selling 15 - 20M when Odyssey sells 26M. Though BOTW changed this and now 3d Mario is lagging behind.

Right, that's why I was citing a presumed 15-20 million total for a new traditional 3D Zelda on the Switch, I am just giving it a traditional "Switch Bump" so to say. But I think the style would definitely be popular on the Switch, BOTW just took it to a different level. but the original style is plenty popular and not at all something that the audiences would hate or want to avoid.

Twilight Princess sold nearly twice what Wind Waker did. The idea that Wind Waker represents anything closer to what mainstream audiences want out of Zelda is entirely unfounded and largely part of the revisionism around Wind Waker in the last 20 years.

Yeah I can't go with this lol, Wind Waker came on the GameCube, Twilight Princess came on the Wii; Twilight Princess had the benefit of being a launch game, Wind Waker launched years into the GCN already being a "dying" platform. Wind Waker launched in the middle of the peak of the "kiddy" rhetoric, Twilight Princess represented the "return to form".

Wind Waker absolutely has been reassessed for the better in the years since, and its re-release was the best performing console Zelda re-release (I think OOT 3D is the only one that did more? And that was OOT). Wind Waker was also the obvious precursor to Breath of the Wild (open world and physics based gameplay, more focus on the world than the dungeons). It is very much closer to the expectation the BOTW/TOTK audience might have from a Zelda game than Twilight Princess or Skyward Sword would be.

 

[Dardan Sandiego]

I think it's funny how every 3D Zelda thread on fami inevitably turns into an attempt to justify the return to the pre-BotW style. Someone get Aonuma an account

 

[PixelKnight]

Yes I 100% believe most people don't care about metacritic scores even slightly, have no idea what game reviews even are, and will buy a game because of tiktok influencers. I believe that happens with the general public 1000000000x more. They don't care at all about IGN or eurogamer or metacritic or opencritic or any critic. They see funny influencer do wild thing, they want to mess with that too.

This has already happened plenty of times. We can just look at influencers getting Skate 3 sales back on the map. There are tons of examples like that. Elden Ring's player base is like 20x every other Souls game. Do you think any of those people looked up reviews? Absolutely not. To suggest that is ludicrous. The public doesn't care.

Meanwhile you have plenty of examples of highly rated games even from loved series like Zelda that don't sell anywhere close, have no media presence, no viral marketing. I don't know how anyone could believe it isn't a gargantuan part of marketing. Where do people think Among Us came from in the public mind?

I don’t get how you seem think that TikTok influencers carry more weight than the entirety of the mainstream media and games press combined for a series with such mainstream appeal across all ages. They do with some audiences, sure, but there’s a reason a media campaign these days usually combines social media with traditional media. It isn’t Tiktok memes that games adverts plaster all over their comms shortly after release, it’s 5-star reviews. In the case of ToTK, you have a combination of, yes, social media experimentation showing off the creativity. But also advertising, reviews, a games press talking it up and games developers talking it up on Twitter too. I saw people in my office in their 30s and 40s (I’m in my 40s too) talking about it through word of mouth and I doubt any of them watch TikTok at all (or, equally, follow metacritic etc). They are more likely to see it mentioned on a talk show, see an ad on the train, a review in a newspaper or hear a friend talk about it. That’s why BOTW/ToTK (and various other hits like Skyrim or GTA or Red Dead etc) were so successful, they hit a theme of escapism across all markets, not just one.

Reducing it’s success to ‘TikTok memes’ is a real stretch in terms of downplaying a piece of accomplished game design in an IP thats been in the public eye for decades that’s a sequel to one of the most highly rated games of all time. Something like Among Us was and is a viral game (and a fun one that’s so easy to get into, I love it) but ToTK wasn’t just viral appeal. It was set up to be a media talking point for years before it launched. That’s a huge difference when comparing stuff like Zelda and Elder Scrolls having huge sales increases to something like Among Us, in that the former have usually been bubbling under for a very long time beforehand.

 

[Hailinel]

Wind Waker absolutely has been reassessed for the better in the years since, and its re-release was the best performing console Zelda re-release (I think OOT 3D is the only one that did more? And that was OOT). Wind Waker was also the obvious precursor to Breath of the Wild (open world and physics based gameplay, more focus on the world than the dungeons). It is very much closer to the expectation the BOTW/TOTK audience might have from a Zelda game than Twilight Princess or Skyward Sword would be.

Absolutely not.

Wind Waker had its influences on BotW, sure, but at heart it's a small, restrictive world given the illusion of expanse by spreading islands that need to be visited in a linear order and forcing the player to use a boat to get between them.

 

[Hero of Hyrule]

Absolutely not.

Wind Waker had its influences on BotW, sure, but at heart it's a small, restrictive world given the illusion of expanse by spreading islands that need to be visited in a linear order and forcing the player to use a boat to get between them.

Yeah, I’m not saying it’s identical, I’m saying it’s them attempting to do the same thing within the constraints of the limitations they had at the time (both hardware and creative). But they did very much try the same thing, Aonuma even said as much the first time he showed off BOTW lol.

My point isn’t that Wind Waker isn’t a traditional Zelda, it is, my point is that it is closer to expectations a BOTW/TOTK a Zelda fan might have than Twilight Princess or Skyward Sword are. But it is stil very much a traditional Zelda game, yes.

 

[Mekanos]

Yeah I can't go with this lol, Wind Waker came on the GameCube, Twilight Princess came on the Wii; Twilight Princess had the benefit of being a launch game, Wind Waker launched years into the GCN already being a "dying" platform. Wind Waker launched in the middle of the peak of the "kiddy" rhetoric, Twilight Princess represented the "return to form".

Wind Waker absolutely has been reassessed for the better in the years since, and its re-release was the best performing console Zelda re-release (I think OOT 3D is the only one that did more? And that was OOT). Wind Waker was also the obvious precursor to Breath of the Wild (open world and physics based gameplay, more focus on the world than the dungeons). It is very much closer to the expectation the BOTW/TOTK audience might have from a Zelda game than Twilight Princess or Skyward Sword would be.

Again, Aonuma outright said Twilight Princess was used as a basis for BOTW. This is obvious looking at the map geometry for Hyrule Field:

Also if you want to use "dying console" as an excuse, there is no console more dead than the Wii U circa 2016 lol

 

[Hero of Hyrule]

Again, Aonuma outright said Twilight Princess was used as a basis for BOTW. This is obvious looking at the map geometry for Hyrule Field:

Also if you want to use "dying console" as an excuse, there is no console more dead than the Wii U circa 2016 lol

Sure, I think Twilight Princess would do well with a modern audience too, in fact I already made note of it having been hugely successful with the mainstream in my previous post lol. I wasn’t arguing against Twilight Princess, I was arguing for Wind Waker.

And yes, I believe that the map geometry is based off of TP, which is the most recent Zelda game with a Hyrule map and realistic proportions. I’m also sure there was a lot they took from it, and SS, and MM, OOT, every Zelda game. But my point is that they have explicitly stated multiple times that they achieved in BOTW what they tried to do in TWW, but couldn’t do as well as they wanted to. I think it’s unnecessary to deny that TWW is very much in line with the expectation a modern Zelda fan would have from the series.

 

[Hailinel]

My point isn’t that Wind Waker isn’t a traditional Zelda, it is, my point is that it is closer to expectations a BOTW/TOTK a Zelda fan might have than Twilight Princess or Skyward Sword are. But it is stil very much a traditional Zelda game, yes.

And again, I'm saying this conclusion is inaccurate. Downplaying the influence of Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword is a complete misread of how that era of Zelda influenced the current era. Especially given the direct citation Mekanos provided.

I think it’s unnecessary to deny that TWW is very much in line with the expectation a modern Zelda fan would have from the series.

It absolutely isn't. It's a restrictive world based around a restrictive mode of transportation.

Also, where are these multiple quotes regarding TWW you keep citing?

 

[AngryAlchemist]

I don't really get why Skyward Sword being the game with the great dungeons stuck so much in the Zelda community. It's true that it's more consistent than Wind Waker, and that the highs are better than most Zelda games, but a lot of dungeons are either extraordinarily linear and easy even for classic Zelda (Skyview Temple/Lanayru Mining Facility) or extremely repetitive (by the time I was done doing the subdungeon areas in the lead up to the Sandship, I was so tired of that area, and Fire Sanctuary is a bit too long too). Even Ancient Cistern, for how great it is, takes until the second half to really become impressive, and it's GOAT status is really carried by that half and the boss because the lead up is just fine. Good, but not impressive. Earth Temple and Sky Keep are the only ones that are unequivocally great all the way through. A lot of the best puzzles aren't even in the dungeons, they're in the overworld since each area is basically a dungeon, and that also makes the dungeons more tiring too.

This isn't to diminish other people's perspectives, just offering my own. I think Ocarina of Time (even if kid Link's are kind of weak) and Twilight Princess had better dungeons or were more consistent, and I'd put Skyward Sword about on par with Majora.

 

[Hero of Hyrule]

And again, I'm saying this conclusion is inaccurate. Downplaying the influence of Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword is a complete misread of how that era of Zelda influenced the current era. Especially given the direct citation Mekanos provided.


It absolutely isn't. It's a restrictive world based around a restrictive mode of transportation.

Also, where are these multiple quotes regarding TWW you keep citing?

Literally the announcement of BOTW was prefaced by them drawing a line from the original Zelda game, through to Wind Waker, and to Breath of the Wild. They even explained how the same design philosophy had been represented across the three games.

I have put the timestamped portion in the video for you, and also transcribed it in case you don't want to/cannot watch it at the moment:

... after the games transitioned to 3D and the hardware continued to evolve, it became harder to create that feeling of being in a vast world [like in the original Zelda game]. For example, in The Wind Waker, we used various techniques to create a wide world where you could freely explore isolated islands. It was very hard to create one large world where everything felt connected. We had to design small bounded areas with a defined entrance and exit, and put it all together to make it feel like you were playing in one large world. But, you still couldn't cut through the boundaries wherever you liked to explore that world. Today, I'd like to talk to everyone about the latest Zelda game for the Wii U.

... this is the new world of Zelda. It's quite a vast world isn't it? You can even reach those mountains in the distance if you walk far enough. We couldn't create such a wide world in the past.

... as soon as those boundaries are removed, it means you can enter any area from any direction.

Like, the Zelda Team itself explicitly draws a line from the original to Wind Waker to BOTW. They say that Wind Waker was an attempt at delivering the same kind of adventure within the constraints of the limitations at the time. Twilight Princess and especially Skyward Sword represent a pivot from that to more focused and puzzle-box style design. Which is absolutely not to say they have no influence or commonality on BOTW, in fact, in terms of moment to moment, Skyward Sword allowing sprinting, jumping, climbing, gliding, having a stamina meter, having crafting, and having gear durability has the most in common with BOTW and TOTK. But I am talking about the larger structure and design and intent of the game. Macroscopically, Wind Waker absolutely is more in common with BOTW/TOTK than TP and SS are.

Now if you feel that players will be more concerned with the moment to moment, sure, you can make the argument, I disagree with it, but it is a valid stance to have. Denying that The Wind Waker was literally designed to deliver the same thing that they then took on again with BOTW is absolute foolishness, the developers themselves say it.

 

[Barahir_MJH]

And again, I'm saying this conclusion is inaccurate. Downplaying the influence of Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword is a complete misread of how that era of Zelda influenced the current era. Especially given the direct citation Mekanos provided.


It absolutely isn't. It's a restrictive world based around a restrictive mode of transportation.

Also, where are these multiple quotes regarding TWW you keep citing?

Wind Waker was somewhat held back by a combination of technical limitations and rushed development. I don't think needing to use a boat is a necessarily a problem, the sea is the setting and tightly integrated into the story both past and present and it makes sense. And while there is still a linear progression, the game does give you quite a lot of freedom after the first 2 or 3 dungeons - you can start the Triforce hunt immediately after the Tower of the Gods.

To be sure I acknowledge the implementation isn't perfect - one-isle-per-square is too strict, some islands like the eye reefs don't really amount to anything, the triforce hunt gets sloggy (though starting this before the endgame as the game nudges you alleviates it considerably). To me the atmosphere of the ocean helps smooth this over a lot, but yes there are flaws.

It also had the most developed physics system (still somewhat basic but well ahead of the other 3D Zeldas especially for the time) of any Zelda pre-BotW. Even the BotW art style looks closer to Wind Waker to me than Twilight Princess, besides Link being an adult. The influence of Wind Waker on BotW seems very clear.

 

[Linkstrikesback]

Literally the announcement of BOTW was prefaced by them drawing a line from the original Zelda game, through to Wind Waker, and to Breath of the Wild. They even explained how the same design philosophy had been represented across the three games.

I have put the timestamped portion in the video for you, and also transcribed it in case you don't want to/cannot watch it at the moment:





Like, the Zelda Team itself explicitly draws a line from the original to Wind Waker to BOTW. They say that Wind Waker was an attempt at delivering the same kind of adventure within the constraints of the limitations at the time. Twilight Princess and especially Skyward Sword represent a pivot from that to more focused and puzzle-box style design. Which is absolutely not to say they have no influence or commonality on BOTW, in fact, in terms of moment to moment, Skyward Sword allowing sprinting, jumping, climbing, gliding, having a stamina meter, having crafting, and having gear durability has the most in common with BOTW and TOTK. But I am talking about the larger structure and design and intent of the game. Macroscopically, Wind Waker absolutely is more in common with BOTW/TOTK than TP and SS are.

Now if you feel that players will be more concerned with the moment to moment, sure, you can make the argument, I disagree with it, but it is a valid stance to have. Denying that The Wind Waker was literally designed to deliver the same thing that they then took on again with BOTW is absolute foolishness, the developers themselves say it.

We already had a really good thread here which completely disproves this line of thought of WW being the source of inspiration. The development of BOTW literally started with using the TP map as a basis to see if a world like it could work, so to disregard that TP couldn't have had any part of the design is just fundamentally wrong in every level.
I'm not going to try and paraphrase it because they did a way better job than I did, but, I can say for one thing, wind waker absolutely wasn't nonlinear in the sense of BOTW at all. They very, very rigidly restrict you from exploring at all until you've cleared the deku island dungeon, which is about halfway through the game and after you've already been forced to visit every major island in the game.

I honestly don't get how people don't notice that wind waker deliberately doesn't let you leave the straight line between windfall and dragon roost, and again, between dragon roost and the deku island directly south. If you try in either case the king of red lion tells you to cut that shit out.

 

[Mekanos]

I don't really get why Skyward Sword being the game with the great dungeons stuck so much in the Zelda community. It's true that it's more consistent than Wind Waker, and that the highs are better than most Zelda games, but a lot of dungeons are either extraordinarily linear and easy even for classic Zelda (Skyview Temple/Lanayru Mining Facility) or extremely repetitive (by the time I was done doing the subdungeon areas in the lead up to the Sandship, I was so tired of that area, and Fire Sanctuary is a bit too long too). Even Ancient Cistern, for how great it is, takes until the second half to really become impressive, and it's GOAT status is really carried by that half and the boss because the lead up is just fine. Good, but not impressive. Earth Temple and Sky Keep are the only ones that are unequivocally great all the way through. A lot of the best puzzles aren't even in the dungeons, they're in the overworld since each area is basically a dungeon, and that also makes the dungeons more tiring too.

This isn't to diminish other people's perspectives, just offering my own. I think Ocarina of Time (even if kid Link's are kind of weak) and Twilight Princess had better dungeons or were more consistent, and I'd put Skyward Sword about on par with Majora.

I think the SS dungeons are pretty solid but I would definitely put OOT and TP's above them.

I think it's funny how every 3D Zelda thread on fami inevitably turns into an attempt to justify the return to the pre-BotW style. Someone get Aonuma an account

Aonuma when he sees people asking for more linear Zelda