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StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (New Staff Post, Please read)

Comparing with their last gen?

So good.
Extremely well. The fastest selling Xbox ever.

It is an iterative upgrade over Xbox One, but it feels like a multigenerational upgrade. People forget that a console isn't just its gimmicks and UI sometimes. Don't fix what isn't broken, focus on what needs improving.

Switch DOESN'T have a great need for a hugely improved library or any additional gimmicks, what it needs is more power to run more modern games and appeal to early adopters, both of technology in general, and of Switch itself.

I fear pouring too much time and effort into "gimmicks" and "unique experiences" will take away from the important differences in a console generation, like having more processing power, allowing more complex software to run, and thus, more in depth games. They don't need another Wii U.

The only thing really limiting experiences on Switch isn't inputs but specs, and even that is "only barely". Nier: Automata, Witcher 3, No Man's Sky, these are games that, at least as I'm concerned, still haven't come close to being "surpassed" in gameplay or even complexity by anything exclusive to 9th gen consoles. With the exception of Microsoft Flight Simulator 2020, there simply aren't any games with gameplay systems that would simply not function on Switch hardware, it's only a matter (though not a simple matter) of how difficult it is to bring it to Switch.

But that date is fast approaching. Maybe Starfield? Maybe Forza Motorsport 23? Maybe the Last of Us Factions Online (lmao)? It's coming soon, and as much as Nintendo is happy to be behind in raw graphics performance, even they admit that when it limits gameplay possibilities, they want to move on.
y'know what, fair enough
 
That holiday 2023 lineup you have is very weak. We'll find out how directs line things up. But my feeling is if we get a lot remasters and b tier releases, Switch is on borrowed time.
Agreed, but it's hard to imagine them not sitting on appealing software if they are deciding to push a potential Switch 2 to late 2024. Given that Nintendo had a great launch year for new hardware with the Switch in 2017, I have a hard time believing they'll drop the ball on appealing software for potential buyers during launch period, especially given they'll want to have existing switch users transition to new hardware.
 
Apologies if this has already been answered but keeping a similar form factor what kind of horsepower are we looking at for the Switch 2 these days? I tend to think for a generational upgrade anything less than the rough equivalent of a PS4 (and a half?) would be insufficient for it to be worth their while, if only for the lack of draw for further third party releases (which seems to have been a good part of the Switches success, though I know Nintendo thrives first and foremost from their 1st party titles). Can something like that be achieved easily and be as slim and portable as the Switch?
I'm hoping 1 TFLOPs on handheld minimum, and and 2.5-3 in docked at most. With DLSS, we can go well above PS4 performance in handheld, and without would be close. But with a 720p screen (I'm assuming) it should match PS4 performance (which is a 1080p machine) easily with 1 TFLOPs.

The node and foundry matters, because you can get more performance and less power draw. 4nm or 5nm TSMC is better than Samsung. 5nm Samsung is closer to 7nm tsmc
 
I think we can reasonably say at this point that the people buying a Switch in year 6-7, are largely not people who would be buying a Switch 2 at launch, or would even be aware/concerned/interested in a successor product. I really doubt it impacts the Switch sales trajectory much, at this stage. Now that we have put the idea of a "revision" to rest, and are seemingly more firmly down the path of a traditional successor, I think that means we will also see a similarly traditional lead time. To me that means it's going to be at least mentioned or talked about a good 12+ months before it releases.
If late buyers of a system were so completely different from early buyers of the next system, we might expect a new system wouldn't affect an old system much. But does anyone really think the DS would've crashed from 27m to 18m to 5m in consecutive years without the 3DS?
 
If late buyers of a system were so completely different from early buyers of the next system, we might expect a new system wouldn't affect an old system much. But does anyone really think the DS would've crashed from 27m to 18m to 5m in consecutive years without the 3DS?
The DS entirely saturated its market and was already losing ground to mobile, so I'd say yes, probably.
 
Even though I don’t think it would be a major issue if most games were hitting native resolution, I think a lot of tech outlets would go to town on Switch 2 having a 720p screen in 2024.

‘We need Switch 2 Pro with 1080p+ screen asap - this ain’t acceptable in the mid 2020’s’
 
I wouldn't say Drake isn't a good chip for a TV only console, just not a good chip for a console to compete with PS5 and Xbox Series X. Without having to keep CPU clocks down to maintain consistency with handheld mode, it could get a lot closer to competing with Series S than a hybrid model could.
Maybe it would be more accurate to say "clearly designed for mobile" - the bandwidth limitations are the obvious one, but 6 TPCs in one GPC is an unusual number. A single, full GPC of 8 TPCs would be a marginal change in in die size. Two smaller GPCs (per Orin) would maximize texture processing/ROPs etc. Between that and the relatively narrow amount of bandwidth, it feels like a design that is really optimized to squeeze as much out of limited power budget as possible, and trying to push it further starts to hit the limitations.
 
Quoted by: LiC
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Even though I don’t think it would be a major issue if most games were hitting native resolution, I think a lot of tech outlets would go to town on Switch 2 having a 720p screen in 2024.

‘We need Switch 2 Pro with 1080p+ screen asap - this ain’t acceptable in the mid 2020’s’
those same tech outlets would praise the SD with it's 800p screen. "it's a low powered system, such a high res doesn't make sense"
 
From an sucessor I expect unique features over the previous console and having Exclusive Software (even early on). Otherwise It is hard to position it that way.

That's my thoughts exactly. Xbox One X was significantly more powerful compared to the Xbox One, but developers could not create software exclusively for it. Also, a Pro model would assume that all accessories still work with it. So if they did transition from the Switch Pro to a Switch 2, the ability to alter form factor becomes totally accessible and compatibility with all prior accessories, like joy cons and the docks, would not be a requirement. If those things do work on the next Switch, great, but I don't feel its a requirement like it would have been with a Pro model.
 
At the risk of sounding stupid, it seems strange to me that there would be an increase in production when there’s so much uncertainty around a global recession.

I really should stop thinking about that article until we see formal forecasting by Nintendo…
 
www.nintendo.com/switch/online just got a redesign. Funny timing, that. I can't help but think something is coming soon, and yeah, I think it could be a new console, it'll inherit NSO no doubt.

Definitely made to be added to compared to precious iterations which were more baked in, this is more like a big list of software and benefits included.

Either way, I believe this is an indication of something coming... Worst case scenario, they reveal a bunch of NSO stuff in the next direct. Best case scenario, they're getting ready to reveal the new console with GB(A) and GCN games at launch. One can dream.
 
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At the risk of sounding stupid, it seems strange to me that there would be an increase in production when there’s so much uncertainty around a global recession.

I really should stop thinking about that article until we see formal forecasting by Nintendo…
Unless they were preparing to launch a new product. Xbox production went up in 2020 despite huge economic uncertainty.

Just not for Xbox One. 😉
 
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The Xbox Series X and Series S are being sold at a loss and both are doing pretty horribly, lol.

Getting doubled by up by the PS5 in sales now that the PS5 shortage is over.

I think these were the worst holiday season sales for Xbox since like 2005.
 
Maybe it would be more accurate to say "clearly designed for mobile" - the bandwidth limitations are the obvious one, but 6 TPCs in one GPC is an unusual number. A single, full GPC of 8 TPCs would be a marginal change in in die size. Two smaller GPCs (per Orin) would maximize texture processing/ROPs etc. Between that and the relatively narrow amount of bandwidth, it feels like a design that is really optimized to squeeze as much out of limited power budget as possible, and trying to push it further starts to hit the limitations.
Are there architectures that have GPCs with 8 TPCs? 6 is how many desktop Ampere has, with Orin being the odd chip out at 4. IMO Drake is just following desktop Ampere here, basically being a "normal" (i.e. gaming) Ampere Tegra, whereas Orin was reconfigured for its tensor op use cases and such.

It's certainly still true that it was designed for mobile, though.
 
I'm surprised so much stock is put into DLC carrying a month in these speculation calendars, even for multiple games. If a game isn't releasing per month then expansion content, no matter how substantial whether Mario Kart, Zelda or Pokemon, just isn't going to cut it.

I also would be rather shocked that with regards to Metroid Prime 4 potentially being cross-gen that the base Switch is a watered down experience, rather than Switch Drake being a slightly more upscaled and visually enhanced product. MP4 was announced six years ago with the Switch audience in mind. People have bought a Switch with an expectation of Metroid Prime 4 being playable on their console, and not just struggling but performing well like it has on Gamecube and Wii in the past. If Retro wants it 60fps on Switch, it'll be 60fps on Switch. Retro may have had stumblings not putting out a new game in years, but I do not doubt their technical capabilities in finding performance enhancements and efficiencies to reach their technical goals. They've been working on MP4 with OG Switch restrictions; it might just allow for a couple more pixels and some extra fancy lighting techniques on next Switch, but it'll still be a technical marvel much like Breath of the Wild was on Wii U.

My list I posted pairs DLC expansion with a game. E.g Sonic and Mario at the Olympics and Xenoblade 3 expansion coming out in the same month. As for Metroif Prime 4 being cross gen, I agree it will be made for OG Switch in mind, but this doesn't mean Switch 2 version cannot look much better. You can easily have Prime 4 on OG Switch running at 60fps with 600p non native resolution in handheld mode as not the most detailed polys and textures (see Mario Odyssey) but on Switch 2 version have better textures, running native 720p in handheld mode, improved lighting and etc. As it's also a first person game the details of higher quality assets will be more pronounced as the camera is more zoomed in. Best example is to compare cross gen COD games that released on PS3 and PS4, or Assassin's Creed Blag Flag that released on PS3 and PS4.
 
If late buyers of a system were so completely different from early buyers of the next system, we might expect a new system wouldn't affect an old system much. But does anyone really think the DS would've crashed from 27m to 18m to 5m in consecutive years without the 3DS?
Hard to say, since that's primarily based on what Nintendo shipped as they were transitioning. After the 3DS launched Nintendo obviously had a vested interest in killing the DS fast. It's not like the DS started missing

The drops don't seem all that dissimilar to what the Switch is already seeing though. ~30 to ~23 in the recent FYs. It remains to be seen if Nintendo can hit their revised 19m forecast for this FY. And this is a piece of hardware with arguably better late legs than we've seen from most consoles.

Note that I'm more focusing on the announcement of said console, vs actual release and beyond. Like I don't think there is going to be an appreciable difference in Switch sales if Nintendo tells their investors that they plan to release new hardware in 2024 or whatever. That's too low-key to penetrate outside of the core Nintendo and gaming audience.
 
Even though I don’t think it would be a major issue if most games were hitting native resolution, I think a lot of tech outlets would go to town on Switch 2 having a 720p screen in 2024.

‘We need Switch 2 Pro with 1080p+ screen asap - this ain’t acceptable in the mid 2020’s’

I doubt it no one seemed to care Deck was under 1080p in fact I seen plenty of tech outlets mentioning the benefits of 1080p for battery life and running more recent AAA games thanks to lower resolution, I seen tech outlets mention negatives for Windows handhelds with higher resolution screens.
 
At the risk of sounding stupid, it seems strange to me that there would be an increase in production when there’s so much uncertainty around a global recession.

I really should stop thinking about that article until we see formal forecasting by Nintendo…
Based on @fwd-bwd's summary, I think a reasonable interpretation of what to expect would be (a) a couple weeks from now, Nintendo increases -- or rather restores -- their FY23 forecast to 21M, and (b) come May, they forecast 20M for FY24, which would be more than the reduced FY23 forecast of 19M but not more than the actual number from the previous period.

That's still declining sales! 23M in FY22, 21M in FY23, and 20M in FY24. Even if one argues that it's unusually stable for a console this late in its life, it's not exactly some crazy thing that demands explanation and must have implications for future hardware upgrades.

The thing I don't understand is that, while I think a restored 21M forecast could easily be attributed to Pokémon-fueled holiday sales plus a return to non-supply constrained conditions, Nintendo only cut the forecast from 21M to 19M last November, which was pretty close to the point where that explanation would have started to kick in, and you'd think the data would have indicated it. Maybe there's just a lag because the analysis they release in November is intentionally based only on data from the 6 months ended in September? But yeah, the yo-yoing seems like the weird part rather than the actual numbers (and the increased production, which may not even be the case) to me.
 
Are there architectures that have GPCs with 8 TPCs? 6 is how many desktop Ampere has, with Orin being the odd chip out at 4. IMO Drake is just following desktop Ampere here, basically being a "normal" (i.e. gaming) Ampere Tegra, whereas Orin was reconfigured for its tensor op use cases and such.

It's certainly still true that it was designed for mobile, though.
The Ampere white paper says that Ampere GPUs have 8 TPC/GPC, but it is entirely possible that is just referring to the A100, as that was bad to happen in Nvidia docs.
 
Quoted by: LiC
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Anybody got any backup plans for their switch 2 budget for this year?

I don't want to get an OLED model because I generally find handheld play quite uncomfortable and use docked and table top more, but wouldnt mind a portable OLED experience, don't want to buy an OLED if a switch 2 is coming in a year as well.

So I am thinking of grabbing one of those portable 4k AMOLED displays from china that come with a built in switch Dock, I figure it will be great for a drake switch and also upgrade my current switch experience, plus I can use it with my phone for retro emulation and as a second laptop display.
I'll probably spend a bit more on prepping for my next desktop.
It just came to my attention today that Intel Optane drives are in clearance what with Intel leaving that particular business. A 118 GB P1600X drive for $76 on NewEgg sounds tempting as a boot drive...
(the size:price ratio sounds horrendous doesn't it? Well yes, it is. But the allure here is the random read/write; so suitable to stick the OS on...)
The pressure of knowing that they'll eventually go out of stock is really making me consider pulling the trigger later tonight o.o
 
The Ampere white paper says that Ampere GPUs have 8 TPC/GPC, but it is entirely possible that is just referring to the A100, as that was bad to happen in Nvidia docs.
Looks like that's the case. A full GA100 die has 8 TPC per GPC (A100 products have either 7 or 8 of them enabled per GPC for a total of 54), while GA102 has 6 per GPC.
 
www.nintendo.com/switch/online just got a redesign. Funny timing, that. I can't help but think something is coming soon, and yeah, I think it could be a new console, it'll inherit NSO no doubt.

Definitely made to be added to compared to precious iterations which were more baked in, this is more like a big list of software and benefits included.

Either way, I believe this is an indication of something coming... Worst case scenario, they reveal a bunch of NSO stuff in the next direct. Best case scenario, they're getting ready to reveal the new console with GB(A) and GCN games at launch. One can dream.
If anything I do appreciate that it's now a lot easier to see the price differences between individual and family plans as well as distinguishing between basic and EP.

Still find it incredibly deceptive that when they first debuted the NSO they had a bullet point for a literal ? block as in "More surprises we can't think of right now!" and all it's amounted to so far is almost-always out of stock retro game controllers and ""choice"" game trials that aren't even consistent in their frequency. Whenever they start investing this subscriber money back into the service will not be soon enough. I sincerely hope whatever next update for NSO comes out it's a significant upgrade in terms of value. GCN would be a huge boost but I'm not holding my breath for more than Gameboy and Gameboy Color. Even GBA I'm still wary they're gonna push off another year to maintain the dripfeed.

My list I posted pairs DLC expansion with a game. E.g Sonic and Mario at the Olympics and Xenoblade 3 expansion coming out in the same month. As for Metroif Prime 4 being cross gen, I agree it will be made for OG Switch in mind, but this doesn't mean Switch 2 version cannot look much better. You can easily have Prime 4 on OG Switch running at 60fps with 600p non native resolution in handheld mode as not the most detailed polys and textures (see Mario Odyssey) but on Switch 2 version have better textures, running native 720p in handheld mode, improved lighting and etc. As it's also a first person game the details of higher quality assets will be more pronounced as the camera is more zoomed in. Best example is to compare cross gen COD games that released on PS3 and PS4, or Assassin's Creed Blag Flag that released on PS3 and PS4.
Going back I think I realize now is that I was skimming but didn't realize you had months listed multiple times; that's my fault for misreading haha

But yeah, we're in agreement for Metroid Prime 4. I think it's earlier posts I saw with some faux concern over MP4 being too ambitious for Switch that it could only hit 30fps (if that) if there's no new hardware before the game launches. I'm sure it'll have some 4K Drake patch to keep it running 720p60 handheld and work some miracle magic for 1440p60 or even 4K60 (though I'm expecting a target of 4K30 as a quality mode and the former as a performance mode) and the visual fidelity will set a new standard for Switch games regardless that seek a more photorealistic artstyle (or at least as photorealistic as a space bounty hunter on a desolate alien planet can be)
 
@Nintendo
Just Game Boy Advance this shit
Yeah, 100% (what do you mean?)
Even though I don’t think it would be a major issue if most games were hitting native resolution, I think a lot of tech outlets would go to town on Switch 2 having a 720p screen in 2024.

‘We need Switch 2 Pro with 1080p+ screen asap - this ain’t acceptable in the mid 2020’s’
I dont think so. when the switch came, critical voices where "720? thats cheap tablet teritory, my phone has 4k now!" but since then a) phones slowed down with resolutions and some major ones did even reduce resolution. Steamdeck came out. people had experience with the switch.
It feels accepted for the most part that 720 on a <7 inch screen is fine for gaming.

will there be some weird youtube channels or tech blogs posting that? eh, maybe, but not the maintream outlets.

What will get them in trouble is if the screen is 720p and not great.
it needs to be: bright, great colors, fast, and ideally have hdr. (some will argue with 90Hz, but while i would love it, i don't think its an posibility sadly)
At the risk of sounding stupid, it seems strange to me that there would be an increase in production when there’s so much uncertainty around a global recession.

I really should stop thinking about that article until we see formal forecasting by Nintendo…
no no, its not stupid. it is unusual, and without more info nobody would understand why.
The Xbox Series X and Series S are being sold at a loss and both are doing pretty horribly, lol.

Getting doubled by up by the PS5 in sales now that the PS5 shortage is over.

I think these were the worst holiday season sales for Xbox since like 2005.
sold consoles, yeah. But don't they have a big win with PC gaming being big again and Gamepass doing great?
they moved away from "we neeed to sell consoles" to "get people in the xbox eco system"
Based on @fwd-bwd's summary, I think a reasonable interpretation of what to expect would be (a) a couple weeks from now, Nintendo increases -- or rather restores -- their FY23 forecast to 21M, and (b) come May, they forecast 20M for FY24, which would be more than the reduced FY23 forecast of 19M but not more than the actual number from the previous period.

That's still declining sales! 23M in FY22, 21M in FY23, and 20M in FY24. Even if one argues that it's unusually stable for a console this late in its life, it's not exactly some crazy thing that demands explanation and must have implications for future hardware upgrades.

The thing I don't understand is that, while I think a restored 21M forecast could easily be attributed to Pokémon-fueled holiday sales plus a return to non-supply constrained conditions, Nintendo only cut the forecast from 21M to 19M last November, which was pretty close to the point where that explanation would have started to kick in, and you'd think the data would have indicated it. Maybe there's just a lag because the analysis they release in November is intentionally based only on data from the 6 months ended in September? But yeah, the yo-yoing seems like the weird part rather than the actual numbers (and the increased production, which may not even be the case) to me.
Yeah, that is possible, but to me that sounds to shortsighted and unusual for such a big company.
 
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To revive an eternal debate, what would you say is the difference between a revision and a full fledge successor?

To me it's 100% marketing and positioning. A revision using Drake is the same device as a successor using Drake.
For me, a mid gen refresh aka revision need a power upgrade within 2 - 3x range and a new gen aka successor need a power upgrade within 6 - 10x range or more. That's why I feel the Wii U is just a revision, not a successor because it's power upgrade is just not enough
 
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I wouldn't say Drake isn't a good chip for a TV only console, just not a good chip for a console to compete with PS5 and Xbox Series X. Without having to keep CPU clocks down to maintain consistency with handheld mode, it could get a lot closer to competing with Series S than a hybrid model could. Eight A78 cores at ~2.8GHz (depending on manufacturing process) would be quite respectable. They'd still likely be bandwidth-constrained on the GPU side, but with DLSS they'd be close enough to the Series S that I don't think most people would notice (or care about) the difference, and it would have the important advantage of playing Nintendo games.

I don't personally think a TV-only model makes sense in the Switch ecosystem unless it matches one of the performance modes of a hybrid model (otherwise it's just adding too much development effort to properly support), but hypothetically if Nintendo did decide to make a Switch-compatible home console that's smaller, cheaper and more power efficient than PS5 or XSX, I think Drake would be a pretty good fit for it.



Thanks. I'd still be surprised if Nvidia has designed T239 with that market in mind. Laptops are a much bigger market than micro PCs, so if they're designing a <15W chip and intending on using it in Windows devices, it would be strange for them to chop out the CSI interface (which seems to be standard on Intel laptop CPUs, and Qualcomm Snapdragon laptop chips) and limit webcam options for laptop OEMs.
The thing is that Drake is good for is whatever Nintendo decides it’s good for. But I agree, any additional use cases should be based on the exact same chip, not variations in clocks or anything of the sort, if only to keep a consistent development environment across all products that use the chip. Its only value to the ecosystem is a cheaper alternative to the hybrid and handheld models, which absolutely has value. It’s one of those devices, as well, that you either offer at the end of the hardware cycle or at/near the beginning. For example, in this upcoming cycle with inflation being as wild as it is, I could see a cheaper TV-only offering being a boon for when Drake launches, for those who like the software lineup but where the hybrid’s main conceit is not the real selling point.

As to the laptop vs. micro-PC thing for binned Drake chips, the main benefit to the latter is that it is starting to have a growing enterprise market, meaning that if they can estimate likely output based on the yields of good Drake chips for Nintendo vs. what’s been binned, they can basically just sell such a device to corporate clients who need large batches of inexpensive but decently capable PCs and provide a delivery date for their quantities.
 
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@Nintendo
Just Game Boy Advance this shit
I agree in terms of power but I want them to jump straight to the SP.

due to battery life and cost cutting, the OG GBA came out with one huge flaw in the lack of a back-lit screen that mired its legacy and impacted how a lot of gba games looked because devs tried to compensate by tweaking the color balance of their games. A good comparison here is The DKC ports on the GBA objectively look worse on GBA.
This is my silver lining with the canceled pro revision. Perhaps we will get a no compromises Switch upgrade. If it's $499 so be it. Switch OLED can still sell for a few more years after 2024 as the budget option
 
I still believe Nintendo have some form of gimmick for Switch 2 while still maintaining backwards compatibility with Switch 1 and still keeping the hybrid concept. I just find it hard to believe Nintendo will just release a new console and say it's the same and more powerful. A new Mario Tennis, Golf, 2D Mario etc just looking slightly prettier isn't enough for Nintendo to justify sequels for without a new concept/gimmick. They haven't just went with more of the same but more powerful since GameCube. I'd argue even N64 was a paradigm shift with going 3D and introducing an analog stick. So it's only GameCube, SNES and GBA that were more of the same but more powerful. Nintendo don't make realistic games so focusing in performance alone for a new system just doesn't work with Nintendo.

Adding a new gimmick doesn't mean we won't get more power I assume it would be both, having PS4 level power in handheld as well as some other new gimmick.

Here is a list of systems that introduced a new gimmick for Nintendo

N64 - analog stick and 3D gaming
Wii - Motion Controls
Wii U - Wii U Pad
Virtual Boy - VR
DS - Dual Screens and Stylus
3DS - 3D Screen
Switch - Hybrid, Split Joycons for 2 Players

Now here is a list of systems Nintendo didn't introduce a new gimmick
SNES - we can argue extra shoulder buttons, but I don't think this is substantial enough to class as a new gimmick
GBA
GameCube - We can argue the C Stick but they were just following PS2, you can also argue the triggers having an additional click but I don't think this is substantial enough

Based on the above I believe Nintendo will have a new gimmick, but if course a generational leap in power too while still maintaining comparability with Switch 1 games and keeping the hybrid form factor. This new gimmick would be marketed with Switch games as I have said in one of my previous posts I think they will go with dual screens except the new gimmick the dual screen can be rotated all the way back for table top play where 2 players can face eachother to play games where you are not supposed to know what the other person is doing (think Nintendoland). Of course the dual screens can also be used in handheld mode as extra maps screen etc like a DS.
 
At minimum, the processor that has leaked would have about 1TF(Tera-FLOP, or 1 trillion floating point operations per second- think of it like being able to add two numbers together a trillion times every second) of raw performance in handheld mode, with more in TV mode. But even going off 1TF, it has tricks up its sleeves. PS4 is 1.8TF, but has an old, weak CPU, and an older graphics architecture. Having neither of these weaknesses, the new Switch at lowest possible clocks would be comparable in most tasks and better in some. It also has DLSS and a File Decompression Engine, allowing it to stream data far faster and achieve better output resolutions than PS4 with less raw power.

1TF isn't the optimistic scenario, though, it's about the bare minimum the processor that's leaked can operate at, physically. The actual performance is likely to be in the 1.5-3TF range.
I forgot who made a table about the bandwidth speed ratio to tflops. They made a ratio for last gen consoles and current. Redredd maybe? @oldpuck knows what I'm talking about. I forgot if Drake actually slightly out performed last gen with 102 GB/s bandwidth per TFLO. And this is also why there been a discussion that with a 102 GB/s bandwidth speed, a 3 Tflops GPU might not benefit it (or at least over) vs 2.5 tflops.. we do have a decompression chip supposedly on Drake, so that could help..

We saw the bottleneck with the current switch with RAM. If we had the 50GB/s from TX2 (128 bis bandwidth) or even 34 GB/s from the get go (basically lpddr4x RAM) , it would have a big difference. A lot of 720p Wii u games with heavy alpha particles would likely be 1080p on switch (Bayonetta 1+2, Pokken Tournament, etc).Switch only has a measily 2x more bandwidth than Wii U, and it doesn't really have the cache that Wii U has, although TX1's tile based rendering helps somewhat with the bandwidth bottleneck.

But if course, it was impossible to get those bandwidth two configurations on Switch at launch.

I think a 88GB/s bandwidth on 720p handheld should be fine though, as we see with the SD, and I think 102 GB/s will likely be okay for most PS4 ports on docked. It's more like anything above that I'm worried about. But that decompression thing on Drake, as well as DLSS will help with resolution issues at least.

Of course the best case scenario is we get really good cache (8mb or whatever) and LPDDR5x 133 GB/s bandwidth. If Switch 2 doe get a late 2023 or 2024 released thar increases the chance of lpddr5x a bit. But Nintendo could save lpddr5x for a revision to save money for launch and a lower power draw for the revision, 2 years later on a 4 or 3nm node or whatever.
Nintendo is never (officially) dropping the price of the Switch. Especially $50 across the board.
Probably when Drake/Switch 2 gets released. That's when I expect OLED at $300, Switch Lite at $170-180 (maybe), and Switch 2 around $400.
 
Was this posted here?

I don't think LPDDR5T is a realistic option if a new console is to be released within the range of April 2023 to March 2024, especially since SK Hynix never mentioned starting mass production of LPDDR5T, but rather is developing LPDDR5T.

My assumption is that 9600 MT/s (153.6 GB/s for 128-bit) is probably not officially supported by JEDEC, so Nintendo probably needs to integrate a LPDDR5T specific memory controller into the SoC before taping out the SoC.

I think LPDDR5T is probably more realistic for a die shrink or a mid-gen refresh.
 
Does anyone remember an article or tweet about 2 people having a meeting and 1 mentioned a new model/hardware or technology and said Xenoblade (2?) would benefit from it (that it would look good or something like that)? I think it was from 2021 but I can't find that conversation.

I think it was japanese (not chinese) and they had the meeting in a restaurant.
 
For me, a mid gen refresh aka revision need a power upgrade within 2 - 3x range and a new gen aka successor need a power upgrade within 6 - 10x range or more. That's why I feel the Wii U is just a revision, not a successor because it's power upgrade is just not enough
If we look at the raw performance in FLOPS, the Wii U is more than 25x the perfomance of the Wii. That's not even taking into account the massive difference brought by the architecture change.
 
What sort of chances are there for Drake to produce roughly x8 the raw GPU flops that Switch is currently capable of?
  • Switch portable - 157 GFlops portable @ 307.2 Mhz
  • Switch docked - 393 GFlops docked @ 768 Mhz
  • Drake portable (if x8) - 1.258 TFlops @ 409.6 Mhz
  • Drake docked (if x8) - 3.146 TFlops @ 1.024 Ghz
Would that even be feasible? Estimated power draw on the different nodes? And how would that compare to other devices? Steam Deck uses RDNA2 and can produce 1.6 TFlops, but being part of an APU, I believe it lacks Infinity Cache, so it doesn't have that benefit. Dunno what else it lacks compared to desktop GPUs. Would Drake using Ampere have anything missing from desktop versions (besides the RAM bandwidth that also affect other portables)? Other devices like the Aya Neo2 go even farther than Steam Deck, including "boosting" itself to 3.38 TFlops by setting its GPU clock to 2.2 Ghz, but boosted is just not sustainable.
 
What sort of chances are there for Drake to produce roughly x8 the raw GPU flops that Switch is currently capable of?
  • Switch portable - 157 GFlops portable @ 307.2 Mhz
  • Switch docked - 393 GFlops docked @ 768 Mhz
  • Drake portable (if x8) - 1.258 TFlops @ 409.6 Mhz
  • Drake docked (if x8) - 3.146 TFlops @ 1.024 Ghz
Would that even be feasible?

I don't know if anyone here can say for sure if it is feasible or not, but I have a feeling that if they use TSMC N4 it could be viable. It would still be a trade off between battery life and performance of course.
Switch handheld has a 460MHz profile, so you would need a higher clock.

I'm ok with 6x better and good battery life.
 
What sort of chances are there for Drake to produce roughly x8 the raw GPU flops that Switch is currently capable of?
  • Switch portable - 157 GFlops portable @ 307.2 Mhz
  • Switch docked - 393 GFlops docked @ 768 Mhz
  • Drake portable (if x8) - 1.258 TFlops @ 409.6 Mhz
  • Drake docked (if x8) - 3.146 TFlops @ 1.024 Ghz
Unlikely, but not totally insane.

The biggest indicator of what a next-gen device will do is just number of transistors. Nintendo put 6 times the number of SMs in in their GPU over their last one, I think 6x is likely where they'll start, and then clocks will get adjusted up or down as power can tolerate. Going 33% further seems like a stretch

Would that even be feasible? Estimated power draw on the different nodes? And how would that compare to other devices?
We know that Drake has power saving tech that other Ampere cards don't have. So I think some of our power estimates are a little shit, honestly.

Also, we don't know if Nintendo will even go with flat clock speeds. It's entirely possible that Nintendo uses a totally different strategy - like dynamic clocks with a fixed power pool, with higher GPU games underclocking the CPU and vice versa.

Steam Deck uses RDNA2 and can produce 1.6 TFlops, but being part of an APU, I believe it lacks Infinity Cache, so it doesn't have that benefit.
Infinity Cache isn't a benefit. It's tradeoff. Cache is expensive, but so is bandwidth. AMD skimped on bandwidth and added cache. In some cases, that is a win, in others it is a loss, and overall it comes out in the wash. APUs don't need infinity cache if they just have a crapload of memory bandwidth. Steam Deck is fine.

RDNA 2 FLOPS and Ampere FLOPS are surprisingly comparable. Part of why Nvidia has invested so much in features in the last few generations, is because both teams have very similar architectures when it comes to raster performance.

Dunno what else it lacks compared to desktop GPUs. Would Drake using Ampere have anything missing from desktop versions (besides the RAM bandwidth that also affect other portables)?
Bandwidth matters in relationship to the amount of textures/geometry you're pushing, and how many frames - in other words, bandwidth needs scales up as your GPU's performance increases.

We don't know Drake's bandwidth, because we don't know at what clock they'll set their memory controllers, I would expect memory performance to drop in handheld mode. But Ampere cards tend to sit around 30 GB/s/TFLOP, (with some lower). Drake will need extra for the CPU, but it's likely that Drake will be fine bandwidth wise.

Other devices like the Aya Neo2 go even farther than Steam Deck, including "boosting" itself to 3.38 TFlops by setting its GPU clock to 2.2 Ghz, but boosted is just not sustainable.
Those machines are bogged down by Windows, and don't have "real" docked modes, running the same profile regardless of whether or not they're hooked up to an external display.

I would expect a Drake based device to underperform a Steam Deck in handheld mode, but absolutely slaughter in battery life. I would similarly expect it to outperform in docked mode.

If Drake is limited - and there are those who disagree - it's single core CPU performance, not the GPU at all.
 
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Anybody got any backup plans for their switch 2 budget for this year?

I don't want to get an OLED model because I generally find handheld play quite uncomfortable and use docked and table top more, but wouldnt mind a portable OLED experience, don't want to buy an OLED if a switch 2 is coming in a year as well.

So I am thinking of grabbing one of those portable 4k AMOLED displays from china that come with a built in switch Dock, I figure it will be great for a drake switch and also upgrade my current switch experience, plus I can use it with my phone for retro emulation and as a second laptop display.
My old tablet was aging badly. Replaced it with a Samsung Galaxy Tab S6 Lite. Otherwise I would've tolerated my old model and got the Drake.
 
Okay, in that case we discard the launch this year, but what about the announcement?
We could potentially gleam some info from the Q&A from the nine months earning report. That will release most likely on 14th Feb. Earnings report is released on 7th Feb.

Last year the earnings report was released on 3rd Feb and the Q&A on the 10th Feb.

If we don't get any info, the next potential date is the Year End Financial Results. Last year it was released on 10th May and Q&A was released on 13th May.

So sometime in May, generally within the first two weeks of May we could potentially have some more info. (If Nintendo themselves don't release or clarify anything before then)
 
Any reason why people are doing that?
One reason I think why people do that, is that they have bought a Special Edition Switch and only want the Joycons so they sell the tablet. Another reason could be, they don't like the screen quality of the OLED so they then sell it.
 
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TOKYO -- Japanese government-backed chipmaker Rapidus plans to set up a prototype production line for cutting-edge 2-nanometer semiconductors by the first half of 2025, President Atsuyoshi Koike told Nikkei on Tuesday.

This time frame is necessary to achieve the company's goal of mass production in the late 2020s, Koike said. The late-2020s timeline would put Rapidus not far behind Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Co., the world's largest chip foundry, which aims to begin full-scale 2-nm production in 2025.

Rapidus plans to officially decide by March on a site for the prototyping facility, which is also expected to handle mass production further down the line. The location will need stable water and electrical infrastructure, as well as the ability to "attract domestic and foreign talent easily," Koike said.

Making 2-nm semiconductors -- expected to be used for artificial intelligence and supercomputing -- poses a technological challenge, in large part because it requires a completely different architecture from earlier generations like the 12- to 28-nm chips to be made at TSMC's new plant in Japan starting up in 2024.
Koike has estimated that Rapidus will need to invest 2 trillion yen ($15 billion) to get the new technology off the ground, plus another 3 trillion yen for mass production facilities.

The complexity and incredibly small scale of top-of-the-line chips means that they take longer to design and put into production. Rapidus will help customers with design and adjust its manufacturing process to reduce this time, Koike said, using short delivery times to differentiate itself from TSMC and Samsung Electronics, which have an overwhelming advantage in volume.
Eventually, "we aim to produce only advanced chips, establishing a high-margin business model," he said.

Rapidus signed a chip licensing agreement in late 2022 with IBM, which successfully produced a 2-nm prototype in 2021. The venture will send staff to the U.S. soon to study the basic technologies needed.

It is also expanding its payroll. Getting 2-nm technology from development to full-fledged production "will take hundreds of engineers," Koike said.

Some investors in Rapidus, which include Toyota Motor, Sony Group, Denso and Kioxia, have provided personnel to the chipmaking venture.

"We want to bring in engineers from areas that different companies specialize in, in order to create new value" for products that use semiconductors, Koike said. Rapidus plans to work with backers on applications for its advanced chips as well.
 
We could potentially gleam some info from the Q&A from the nine months earning report. That will release most likely on 14th Feb. Earnings report is released on 7th Feb.

Last year the earnings report was released on 3rd Feb and the Q&A on the 10th Feb.

If we don't get any info, the next potential date is the Year End Financial Results. Last year it was released on 10th May and Q&A was released on 13th May.

So sometime in May, generally within the first two weeks of May we could potentially have some more info. (If Nintendo themselves don't release or clarify anything before then)
I'm not Japanese, so quote me if I'm wrong, but Nintendo usually posts their yearly earnings right after Golden Week, and this year it seems to be only the first week of May, so it will likely align somewhat similar to last year's. Unless they decide to release it before Golden Week this year.
 
Based on the above I believe Nintendo will have a new gimmick, but if course a generational leap in power too while still maintaining comparability with Switch 1 games and keeping the hybrid form factor. This new gimmick would be marketed with Switch games as I have said in one of my previous posts I think they will go with dual screens except the new gimmick the dual screen can be rotated all the way back for table top play where 2 players can face eachother to play games where you are not supposed to know what the other person is doing (think Nintendoland). Of course the dual screens can also be used in handheld mode as extra maps screen etc like a DS.

That would counter their aim to sell multiple Switches to one household. The DS was great for those crossword games which countered the mobile games. Then what games made good use of the second screen on the Wii U… yes only Nintendo Land and that gameplay can be mirrored with multiple Switches.

The 3DS XL felt already very flimsy and just too tall for that concept, a Switch DS would be far to heavy and or flimsy. The Switch is already huge for handheld play.
 
I'm not Japanese, so quote me if I'm wrong, but Nintendo usually posts their yearly earnings right after Golden Week, and this year it seems to be only the first week of May, so it will likely align somewhat similar to last year's. Unless they decide to release it before Golden Week this year.
Good point. I'm glad you caught that. We'll see what happens in May. They'll probably tell us in April the date of the earnings release.
 
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@Nintendo
Just Game Boy Advance this shit

Nintendo:

bff365ab920a0f6bc6c8d9b6a36254f60b531fc8.gif
 
wouldn't say Drake isn't a good chip for a TV only console, just not a good chip for a console to compete with PS5 and Xbox Series X. Without having to keep CPU clocks down to maintain consistency with handheld mode, it could get a lot closer to competing with Series S than a hybrid model could. Eight A78 cores at ~2.8GHz (depending on manufacturing process) would be quite respectable. They'd still likely be bandwidth-constrained on the GPU side, but with DLSS they'd be close enough to the Series S that I don't think most people would notice (or care about) the difference, and it would have the important advantage of playing Nintendo games.

I don't personally think a TV-only model makes sense in the Switch ecosystem unless it matches one of the performance modes of a hybrid model (otherwise it's just adding too much development effort to properly support), but hypothetically if Nintendo did decide to make a Switch-compatible home console that's smaller, cheaper and more power efficient than PS5 or XSX, I think Drake would be a pretty good fit for
Shoot if we had a TV console Orion, we'd likely get a custom Orion AGX. 256 bus bandwidth like the highest Orion AGX model. 12 core A78(C) CPU with 11 cores at 2.2GHz for gaming would match Series S in single core performance. And if we had the 2048 Orion cores GPU, 5.3 tflops or something 🤔
Even though I don’t think it would be a major issue if most games were hitting native resolution, I think a lot of tech outlets would go to town on Switch 2 having a 720p screen in 2024.

‘We need Switch 2 Pro with 1080p+ screen asap - this ain’t acceptable in the mid 2020’s’
But then they'd bitch about the performance or 1.5-2hr battery life, if it was a 1080p screen. Lose lose situation. Most game techies would understand.
At the risk of sounding stupid, it seems strange to me that there would be an increase in production when there’s so much uncertainty around a global recession.

I really should stop thinking about that article until we see formal forecasting by Nintendo…
Watch some of that +20 more million be switch 2 consoles shipped

www.nintendo.com/switch/online just got a redesign. Funny timing, that. I can't help but think something is coming soon, and yeah, I think it could be a new console, it'll inherit NSO no doubt.

Definitely made to be added to compared to precious iterations which were more baked in, this is more like a big list of software and benefits included.

Either way, I believe this is an indication of something coming... Worst case scenario, they reveal a bunch of NSO stuff in the next direct. Best case scenario, they're getting ready to reveal the new console with GB(A) and GCN games at launch. One can dream.

You got BOOST POWER; Nate Drake's prediction of an f-zero comes to life. F-,Zero GX on NSO! Lol
 
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