Raccoon
Fox Brigade
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to play devil's advocate, I could totally see the reasoning being that delaying zelda even six months further would be too detrimental to the brand to consider
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StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (New Staff Post, Please read)
- Thread starter Dakhil
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After PS2 and Switch, anybody would be foolish to not launch in March.
I for one, would be hugely disappointed.
Raccoon
Fox Brigade
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yeah, imo "2022" eventually turning into "holiday 2023" is probably a non-starter unless the game is an absolute mess
Gotdatmoneyy
Boo
Sitting on completed software that is not going to sell more units by waiting nor is it going to turn the fortunes of your next product around serves no purpose. That's why.
BOTW on WiiU had a userbase of 11 million.
TotK on Switch has a userbase of 125 million and growing.
The circumstances of launch here are not equivalent.
And again, BOTW is one of the best games of all time and propelled the Switch. But year one of the Switch was packed with tons of high quality evergreen software. Mario Kart launched the next month and that is by far the best selling Switch game.
BOTW is not the sole reason the Switch had huge momentum. The Switch moved 15m units in its first 12 months with shortages. There is no reason to think that without a Zelda game Switch 2 cannot match or exceed that. So what is this huge push to delay Zelda. We don't even know what other software they could have cooking up between first parties and third party partners.
Delaying before you given it an actual date is fine enough and sorta expected. But you don't give a date, unless you're really sure you're gonna make it.
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I mean this in the kindest way. You post here more than I post across the entire site. And I check this place first thing when I wake up and last thing at night.
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Just to be clear I'm not talking about delaying it now, I'm talking about going from "2022" straight to holiday 2023. Which IMO is what I assumed was everyone's expectation anyway.
Aether
Kremling
I can only speak for Doom, xenoblade, TW§ and nier.
Doom is level based and the resolution gets pretty low, hard to compare.
xeno 2 (and 3 from what i have heard?) can also fall pretty low in resolution?
TW3 is open world...but honestly, maybe it is technically better in some aspects,
the picture is so soft and the textures so muddy, im honestly not shure how that looks in any way shape or form better.
and Nier... it looked fine, but the world was static. it also never was as open as BotW.
Overall i find an interactive way more open world hard to compare to Nier, even if that one did look better.
in other words: none of those are a clear sign to me that there is so much untaped pottential. BotW will still be limited by way bigger world / draw distance, not falling in resolution as hard as some of those other games (nier made the right decision, having all effects on but image quality like crap kinda missed the point in my opinion, so good that they reduced foliage and stuff)).
Essentially: can you improve botw WITHOUT reducing resolution or the physical complexity (and i actually expect an expansion of the physics engine...)
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I'd give it till mid-February but yep
For sure. It's going to run and look better than BotW, I feel like that much is a given. I'm just excited for the first 4K Zelda with possible HDR inclusion haha
bloopland33
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Slightly OT I suppose but I’m always surprised seeing people sing the praises of M+R visually. I finally played it last year and visually I didn’t think it was that amazing? The lighting always looked so flat on the characters especially.
Good looking, sure, but whenever I see BotW vids I forget how good that game looked at times.
Maybe I need to watch the M+R Digital Foundry video to better appreciate what’s going on there.
Did I say that anyone said that?
Raccoon
Fox Brigade
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I thought that was impossible but holy based, 725 of your 773 posts are in this thread
Gotdatmoneyy
Boo
The point isn't to compare these games directly to BOTW because they were never aiming to be BOTW.
When I said Doom 2016 to Doom Eternal thr point was that Eternal packs higher detail, larger map size and boosts a better framerate while keeping resolution similar. The sequel is a big improvement on the same system. XC3 was a large improvement over XC2 on the same system.
TW3 is a much more technically advanced game than BOTW. It isn't even close. It makes use of a much more advanced feature set which is to say, BOTW has many things in its visual identity it can improve.
Nier is able to produce an inage quality comparable to PS4 because temporal upsampling technology is common now while it wasn't when the original game came out. So the advances allowed it to be ported with an improved visual make up compared ro if it was ported earlier in the Switch's life.
These games were not brought up to suggest they are similar to BOTW. They are not trying to be. Doom may be level based but nothing in BOTW approaches the chaos of some of those Doom and Doom Eternal combat arenas where so much high octane shit is occuring. Xenoblade 2 and 3 have always had much better character modeling than Zelda, better texture work and better material work. XC3 also has comparable image quality to BOTW, at times better. TW3 is just a lot more advanced in features. Games are a culmination of tech, direction and gameplay objective. None of thrse games want to be BOTW but many of them implement technologies that the original BOTW did not because they either did not exist or were not common/feasible on the WiiU.
Why would we possibly think BOTW is the most optimized Switch game when it isn't even utilizing any software advances fro. The last 6 years. It makes no sense. Poking at the deficiencies of other games that do more than BOTW doesn't change that.
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No but I thought that was the connotation. Otherwise where exactly does the idea that they'd delay Zelda after giving it a firm release date come from?
I think if they don't release Switch 2 with Zelda it's only because they have another huge game ready to launch with Switch 2. The only other game that is as huge is a 3D Mario. They can easily start the marketing cycle for 3D Mario and Switch 2 around end of June giving Zelda 6 weeks to breathe after release and release Mario and Switch 2 for November. They can also start marketing cycle for Zelda TotK Remaster around September too. So we will get something like a 3D Mario, Zelda remaster and casual game as first party launch games for Switch 2. Remember Mario movie releases in April so a Mario game in the same year makes sense.
wolftendo
Shiny hunter wolf
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The Last of Us came out in June 2013, months before the PS4 even released. The Last of Us Remastered came out in July 2014. Both versions reached the top of sales charts and while the PS3 "lost" that console generation its 80M+ install base was closer to the current switch install base than the paltry 13M of the Wii U during BOTW release.
And this is without BC, with BC will have an even greater reason to migrate, especially if Nintendo offers a cheap $10 upgrade or something.
TLDR: The switch 2 will be fine even if it doesn't release with TOTK.
If TOTK has lower review scores than BOTW it won't be due to the hardware, assuming they can keep an experience as polished or even more polished than BOTW. In this hypothetical, it would be due to a percieved lack of ambition or squandered potential. An iterative sequel that does the same things as the original, with a couple of gameplay gimmicks added and with complete disregard of BOTW main criticisms (the story, the dungeons, riding mechanics) then it will definitely review lower than its predecessor.
However, I'm 100% confident that Nintendo will actually deliver on their promise. A 6 year-long development will not be squandered for a subpar product.
Celine
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End of next fiscal year is also my bet.
Gotdatmoneyy
Boo
The amount of geometry and the texture detail was way above comparable Switch games. It has an excellent AA solution as well. The visuals were clean and colorful. It kept a consistent 900p picture.
I dunno. I never thought BOTW was the best looking Switch game. I always thought Rabbids and ARMS were better visual showcases. BOTW looks really good in spots and really ugly in spots. As a whole it looks nice but I don't think it stands above M+Rs. The last area in that game looks crazy good.
Aether
Kremling
while, yeah, i dont dissagree on most points.
But BotW was not limited by budget (i asume Doom2016 late port -> paralell in development, or Xenoblade 2).
I never sad BotW is "the most optimized" switch game, but in the context it is doing, its hard to find much thats that much more impressive.
Will there be improvements? sure. I just really dont think it will be able to do both to a big degree, increase its graphics AND optimizing that it can perform better then BotW while having a higher demand. It will either look somewhat better but run the same, or it will run better but push its visuals more.
I just think some people here expect wonders from it.
And honestly, i still think it is one of the more impressive switch games, and it was a launch game.
but well see, maybe im wrong, and TotK runs as fixed 30fps 900p with way more pazaz, i would be happy if it does, but seeing the trailers...doesn't seem so.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Manakete
The Last of Us Remastered is a hopefully very different situation than any TotK on Switch 2 version.
The PS3's hardware was probably the worst ever made by a serious company so Sony couldn't do BC for the PS3 and had to remake their games for PS4.
Meanwhile, TotK should be playable on the Switch 2 from day one.
This is more comparable to The Last of Us 2, Final Fantasy 7, and Ghost of Tsushima launching immediately before the PS5's launch.
The PS3's hardware was probably the worst ever made by a serious company so Sony couldn't do BC for the PS3 and had to remake their games for PS4.
Meanwhile, TotK should be playable on the Switch 2 from day one.
This is more comparable to The Last of Us 2, Final Fantasy 7, and Ghost of Tsushima launching immediately before the PS5's launch.
wolftendo
Shiny hunter wolf
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This is true.
If Sony can launch a new generation whose first two years of console exclusives consists of cross-gen releases and re-releases of games that came out on the twilight years of the PS4, I'm confident Nintendo can pursue a similar strategy, with even more games in the kitchen (Like 2D/3D Mario, MK9, MP4, DK, and others). Heck, even Splatoon 3 could get a 4k patch later down the line, allowing for cross-play between devices.
Raccoon
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I'd go as far as saying that despite the annoyance of the day one version being vastly inferior, zelda coming less than a year before a backwards compatible console could ease the transition and make the overall switch brand, as well as the massive existing install base, feel stronger
Goodtwin
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Dont get me wrong, I doubt we will see a generational leap with TotK compared to BotW, but TotK can absolutely take full advantage of the Tegra X1 where BotW was limited to a less powerful DX10.1 level GPU with an architecture that dates back to 2009. Not to mention the custom PPC CPU that could not communicate across cores so true multi threading wasn't happening. TotK being able to target Switch will be able to use half precision shaders wherever possible, has access to three times the memory, a CPU that can fully multi thread and probably most importantly implement their image reconstruction technique they patented a couple years ago and implemented in XC3. XC3 only rendered at 540p and reconstructed up to 1080p. If Nintendo can get TotK to render at 720p and reconstruct up to 1080p, image quality should be a nice step up from BotW, and because they are actually rendering at a lower resolution than BotW, memory bandwidth bottlenecks may be reduced. No matter what, Zelda TotK will look and perform nicely on OG Switch.
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This thread is the Breath of the Wild of Famiboard Threads.
CocaFormula
Cappy
Well they'd lose an undisturbed, bigger boost to sales of your higher margin hardware for months I guess - also good to clear inventory in preparation of the next-gen launch.
Switch 2 would be likely sold out for a while regardless and you could have a similar effect with an exclusives (or timed, or free) TOTK DLC released at launch with the 4K patch.
I feel there are too many variables we are not aware of to say conclusively one option would be better than the other. We just need to hope Nintendo decided for the best in their and our interest I guess...
Gotdatmoneyy
Boo
After BOTW got patched I found its performance to be mostly fine. It still dipped but it never felt crazy. We'll have to see when it drops. There hasn't been enough footage for me to get a good grasp on how much they improved the technology. I would hope they use an upscaling solution similar to XC3 since that imrpoves output resolution while reducing rendering load.
I am not expecting a massive jump but something that looks noticeably better while running more consistently. If other games throughout the Switch generation have been able to improve their feature set I would think Zelda should be able to as well.
eK-XL
Rattata
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It's easy to assume that Nintendo will follow a cross generation strategy similar to Microsoft and Sony but unlike those two they don't really have to. Microsoft and Sony rely on the revenue of the last gen versions as they make most of their money on game sales right after release. Nintendo on the other hand doesn't discount their games much and can continue to sell millions of full priced copies years after launch. Launching a game as next gen only will give them less money short term, but it'll even out in the long right.
I think Nintendo will do more cross gen games than they have in the past, but I expect their crossgen period to be short to move people on to the next machine.
I think Nintendo will do more cross gen games than they have in the past, but I expect their crossgen period to be short to move people on to the next machine.
D
Deleted member 887
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I get why someone might be more impressed with one game over the other - the FX team on Zelda are second to none, especially - but I think that Zelda is more striking because of it's new art style, where Milan was walking a narrow line between absolutely being on model for all their renders, and on character with their animation, while trying to inject some new personality into Mario.
In terms of technical achievement in M+R, the resolution is about what Zelda is pulling off, while adding pretty excellent AA. The depth of field effects never tank the frame rate, while hiding any LOD pop-in, and the background geometry is surprisingly rich. The flat lighting is a natural consequence of Mario's visual language, but there are sections where Milan does something that really pushes it without breaking the aesthetic - the sunset on the blocks leading to Rabbid Kong are particularly striking, and looks completely integrated, but is the sort of look that the flat Mushroom Kingdom never gets.
There is some background objects running at lower frame rates, but the animation work is not only Next level Games level, but instead of just having the frame rate of background objects, they seem to sub in a different animation entirely with a different set of keyframes designed to look extra readable. It looks more like a stylistic choice to animate on 2s rather than a frame rate drop, which is very nice.
The shader/texture work is also excellent. The water and grass look especially good. It doesn't have Odyssey's variety, and you're never looking at objects as far away or as close at Odyssey does, but if you look at what Kingdom Battle does and compare it to, say, what 3D World was doing I think you can see how it feels like it was really showing what Switch was capable of.
In terms of technical achievement in M+R, the resolution is about what Zelda is pulling off, while adding pretty excellent AA. The depth of field effects never tank the frame rate, while hiding any LOD pop-in, and the background geometry is surprisingly rich. The flat lighting is a natural consequence of Mario's visual language, but there are sections where Milan does something that really pushes it without breaking the aesthetic - the sunset on the blocks leading to Rabbid Kong are particularly striking, and looks completely integrated, but is the sort of look that the flat Mushroom Kingdom never gets.
There is some background objects running at lower frame rates, but the animation work is not only Next level Games level, but instead of just having the frame rate of background objects, they seem to sub in a different animation entirely with a different set of keyframes designed to look extra readable. It looks more like a stylistic choice to animate on 2s rather than a frame rate drop, which is very nice.
The shader/texture work is also excellent. The water and grass look especially good. It doesn't have Odyssey's variety, and you're never looking at objects as far away or as close at Odyssey does, but if you look at what Kingdom Battle does and compare it to, say, what 3D World was doing I think you can see how it feels like it was really showing what Switch was capable of.
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Well yeah. After all, this thread began development on another platform but then shifted to the current platform, which it's now much more heavily associated with.
10k
Nintendo Switch RTX
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Luigi's Mansion 3 and Sparks of Hope are probably the best looking titles I've seen on the Switch.
This is the best name!!!
Sony still on Playstation 5
Nintendo... lets skip all the other numbers and make it 24.
Hahaha, Jack Bauer can market the console
Then they could market more multiplayer games. 2 or 4 players, doesn't matter, when you can play 24/7.
I disagree. I think Switch 2 will be more expensive than expected so to be able to continue to sell to people who don't want to pay to upgrade they will have cross gen games for years to come. There will be exclusives here and their. Games already take an eternity to develop and due to Nintendo games not pushing graphics and more cartoon like art style they can get away with releasing games for Switch 1 for years to come. A game like a 2D Metroid, 2D Zelda, 2D Mario, Animal Crossing doesn't really need much power to run, and I doubt Nintendo will stop making 2D games. Then we have even 3D games like Kirby, 3D Mario that really don't need to be super detailed. Then we have countless indie games, these games barely push the Switch there is no reason why indie developers will stop supporting the original Switch even after Switch 2 release. I suppose only Xenoblade series really could use the extra power.
We need to also consider a Switch 2 Lite is far off so they probably also want to have games come out for the original Switch Lite and target that form factor too.
I think Switch 2 will mainly have cross gen Nintendo first party games as well as cross gen indie games for many years. Only true exclusives will be PS4/PS5 third party ports such as Street Fighter 6 and Diablo 4. With games being cross gen also Nintendo can market ray tracing and 4K as cross games won't push the Switch 2 as much as next gen only games so those features are more doable. It will also help development costs to not go for high fidelity graphics. Honestly play a game like the 3D Kirby on PC via emulator it looks incredible.
I believe we will continue to get commercials and marketing for Switch 1 for years to come and it will be a 3 pillar ad campaign.
Switch Lite
Switch
Switch 2
OLED will be replaced and Switch will takeover being the premium option.
bloopland33
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That's super fair, and I had forgotten about the game's AA.
Idk, it's been since 2018 since I've played it, but idr Odyssey having flat lighting.
Thinking more on it, though, maybe what I'm trying to say is less lighting and more coloring - in the cutscenes especially, it felt like the colors on the characters were so desaturated, almost? Or not desaturated but there was just too much lift on the colors. Anyone know what I'm saying?
And the lighting/shadowing on that just made the effect stick out more to me. So what I'm trying to talk about isn't a lighting issue itself after all.
10k
Nintendo Switch RTX
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The cinematics are heavily compressed to fit on the carts. So that might have something to do with it.
eK-XL
Rattata
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Nintendo doesn't want to price drop their machines just like they don't want to price drop their games. Rather than cut prices they will offer lower end hardware like the Switch Lite. I don't think they will create a device that's such a high premium ($500) that they have to price reduce it eventually or sales will drop. I think $400 for a base unit (if there's multiple SKUs) is in line with inflation and is a solid price they could continue to sell at for a long time.
Mr.Gamerson
Octorok
My solution to Zelda not launching with the system is to release a major expansion post switch 2 and have a Switch 2 version of TOTK that takes advantage of the new hardware outside of just resolution and frame rate increases, it should effectively function as a remaster/remake. That way I can get you guys to buy the game twice. If TOTK is great enough, most people will not want to wait a year + to play TOTK when they own a perfectly functional switch.
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Yeah, no, making people double dip for a game that's already backwards compatible is gross. I expect the update to be free but minor (LODs and resolution changes only, methinks.).
ArchedThunder
Uncle Beerus
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On the launch title discussion, I feel fairly confident that since it likely isn’t launching with Zelda it will probably launch with a new 3D Mario, which would be huge for the system.
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Nintendo's last console with multiple SKUs at launch was Wii U.
That did not end well.
I think this will be the same situation. They will launch only one SKU and save more storage for the "Slim" redesign later down the like, like OLED Model for the original Switch.
I expect 128GB of UFS storage... I won't specify what kind of UFS because I expect them to use the cheapest compatible UFS still in production, and I'm not sure what that is.
That did not end well.
I think this will be the same situation. They will launch only one SKU and save more storage for the "Slim" redesign later down the like, like OLED Model for the original Switch.
I expect 128GB of UFS storage... I won't specify what kind of UFS because I expect them to use the cheapest compatible UFS still in production, and I'm not sure what that is.
D
Deleted member 887
Guest
The only thing here that I think is actually a factor is image reconstruction. GLSL can handle half-precision performance gains in a lot of cases entirely by itself, and likely did when the BotW port happened with no direct intervention by the programmers/artists. Similarly, mutex implementation lives well below your engine in the Nintendo SDK and stdlib, and those performance gains simply happened as a side effect of getting BotW onto Switch in the first place.
Engines don't suffer so much from the weakest platform they support, but from how many platforms they support. And assuming the TotK is getting Drake patches, they're still supporting two.
ArchedThunder
Uncle Beerus
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Yeah I think they'd probably more likely do a "complete edition" with the DLC or a DLC pass.
Cackletta5
Cappy
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How is this a Sony thing? BOTW‘s DLC is Switch exclusive, same as the MK8 Booster Course Pass.
Also no, at worse, they just don’t patch older games at all.
10k
Nintendo Switch RTX
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You are not getting a 1536 Cuda core GPU and 8 core CPU with a battery, OLED screen and likely 12GB of RAM on a 5nm process for $399. The break even price for that with inflation is likely already $450+.
They are also not going to launch their next gen console to only be $100 more than their OLED model.
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