Discussion Socialism Discussion Thread

[Mekanos]

I mean liberals want to take their liberty to such extrems so that nobody can enforce anything on them and their wealth, which would also mean their power.
That's why they are against any laws that protects the weak, the unfortunate and are against any taxes that would regulate them and help others that are poorer. While constantly upholding the lie, that everyone can get rich like them, even tho they got wealthy because they either participated on a scam or inherited it.

I would say that specifically a critical component of liberalism is the appearance of fairness. You will have liberal politicians give lip service to taxing the wealth, combating climate change, and alleviating poverty, but their primary goal first and foremost is to foster growth for capital. Bourgeois liberal democracies function primarily for, well, the bourgeoisie. The state apparatus, the police, the military, all exist first and foremost to protect private property and enrich corporations. Everything else is secondary. During the era of Keynesian economics there was an attempt at a balancing act, but even now the beloved social democracies like Sweden have become neoliberalized over the last few decades as a result of unchecked global expansion in the imperial core (much of this I would posit as a reaction to the fall of the Soviet Union as governments no longer felt they had to offer an "alternative" to communism). The appearance of being progressive and fair is critical to the core contradictions of liberalism, which upholds capitalism, an economic system that necessitates exploitation.

The original pitch of liberalism is that the state exists to mediate conflict and protect basic rights, while not interfering with liberty and prosperity. As corporations expanded significantly though around the globe it's become impossible to uphold that because capital must continue to grow at the expense of others. It just finds a way to push the ugliness away from the public eye, like using prisoners as slave labor (the perception being that the prisoners violated the social contract so what happens to them after imprisonment is irrelevant) or blurring the line between colonization and occupation of foreign countries.

Liberalism's key role is making capitalism palpable to the average person - freedom, liberty, democracy. Without it you would just get naked fascism.

 

[Jarmusch]

The funny stuff with neo liberals is that even adam smith and ricardo would be comfortably to their left. They were very aware of the inherent conflicts and problems of the capitalist system. Its just funny to me that even supposedly center left parties take more or as much from hayek and friedman than from the fathers of their own ideology.

And thats why their time is over, no matter the perception and why political polarization will only grow wider. Even the most vile chuds are a victim of the system, without knowing or understanding its material and social causes/implications.

Its a system designed to have winners and losers and the majority lost

 

[Fodder Aplenty]

Hey I’m anti capitalist, does that make me a socialist?

 

[Jarmusch]

Hey I’m anti capitalist, does that make me a socialist?

not necessarily, no.

 

[Fireblend]

I joke about it all the time but I feel like the pandemic has truly radicalized me lol, in my youth as a CS student I looked up to Silicon Valley, technology as progress, "everyone should learn how to code" line of thinking as the solution, and generally my views have fallen on the "socially progressive" side of things, but staying at home, looking at how the world handled the pandemic, what those companies focused on, and then reading up and listening about not only ideological theory but also the way technology intersects with politics (I'm involved in data analytics, a truly cursed area in that respect), how those companies emerged, how they veil their aspirations, etc. has turned me into much more of a leftist.

 

[Oheao]

Hey I’m anti capitalist, does that make me a socialist?

Well you could be a feudalist.

 

[dpt120]

Hey I’m anti capitalist, does that make me a socialist?

No, you could be an anarchist

 

[Randinva]

right = bad, left = good

you're welcome

Seriously, i really cant help you cause i got my political education by praxis (personal experience), curiosity and whatnot. It can take a lifetime to really understand different political theories in detail, but hopefully someone else here can help

I have also learned mostly through praxis, which is why I started to read about the ideologies themselves (history, general explanation), since I read the wikipedia definition of left, which made sense, but the right definition was something like "authority and order" and then I was like then why is neoliberalism right? reading the book that was recommended to me explained what neoliberalism is (yikes), but then the definition of right as "authority and order" doesn´t really make sense, at least to me.

I have read some explain left as "progressive" and right as "conservative", but I find those definitions to be too general, so I prefer read about the ideologies themselves.

I am getting a clearer picture now, but since the book I am reading is from Spain, I want an english view too.

(The more I read though, I tend to think that the right and left way of defining politics to be bad for discussion, I would prefer just saying the ideology honestly.)

 

[Fodder Aplenty]

No, you could be an anarchist

not necessarily, no.

Well you could be a feudalist.

Hah, well I don’t think I’m a feudalist that’s for sure

 

[dpt120]

I have also learned mostly through praxis, which is why I started to read about the ideologies themselves (history, general explanation), since I read the wikipedia definition of left, which made sense, but the right definition was something like "authority and order" and then I was like then why is neoliberalism right? reading the book that was recommended to me explained what neoliberalism is (yikes), but then the definition of right as "authority and order" doesn´t really make sense, at least to me.

I have read some explain left as "progressive" and right as "conservative", but I find those definitions to be too general, so I prefer read about the ideologies themselves.

I am getting a clearer picture now, but since the book I am reading is from Spain, I want an english view too.

(The more I read though, I tend to think that the right and left way of defining politics to be bad for discussion, I would prefer just saying the ideology honestly.)

Neoliberalism promotes capitalism and is often championed by the right, hence why it's right. If you look at right wing policies and talking points, many are about authority and order (and controlling people)

 

[Jarmusch]

Neoliberalism promotes capitalism and is often championed by the right, hence why it's right. If you look at right wing policies and talking points, many are about authority and order (and controlling people)

Neoliberalism did start as a right wing ideology with pinochet, tatcher and reagan, etc.

What happened was that center left parties in the 90s decided to mix that right wing economic philosophy with mild leftist reforms that characterised those parties already. Things went wrong though and big capital began to be the real boss and influencer of state affairs, therefore the famed overton window was pushed towards the right.

Also, theres niche right wing positions like right wing libertarianism and anarcho capitalism, that are incoherent and crazy ideologies but well, they exist and dont promote social order and authority

 

[Randinva]

Neoliberalism promotes capitalism and is often championed by the right, hence why it's right. If you look at right wing policies and talking points, many are about authority and order (and controlling people)

I feel saying something is right because people on the right use it feels to me like saying nothing (sorry if this comes off as rude, I respect your opinion), why not criticize or define the ideology itself?

For example, economic liberalism (which is a less extreme version of neoliberalism I think?) supports the idea of goverment being a problem to its ideal (even though it helps to mantain it), that the market will regulate itself because of some "natural" laws (even though in practice monopolies will inevitably happen and recessions are inevitable too without goverment intervention.)

 

[Mekanos]

The funny stuff with neo liberals is that even adam smith and ricardo would be comfortably to their left. They were very aware of the inherent conflicts and problems of the capitalist system. Its just funny to me that even supposedly center left parties take more or as much from hayek and friedman than from the fathers of their own ideology.

And thats why their time is over, no matter the perception and why political polarization will only grow wider. Even the most vile chuds are a victim of the system, without knowing or understanding its material and social causes/implications.

Its a system designed to have winners and losers and the majority lost

 

[Azuran]

No, you could be an anarchist

While a lot of anarchists avoid calling themselves "socialists" for various reasons, mostly because the term has been historically tied up to Marxism and everything that came out of it, they're still socialists at its core. At the end of the day the foundation of the ideology is workers controlling the means of production. The methods differ but the goals are the same.

 

[Jarmusch]

loool love the " Photo of Mao Tse Tsung is unrelated"

While a lot of anarchists avoid calling themselves "socialists" for various reasons, mostly because the term has been historically tied up to Marxism and everything that came out of it, they're still socialists at its core. At the end of the day the foundation of the ideology is workers controlling the means of production. The methods differ but the goals are the same.

yes, most anarchists are nothing but libertarian socialists/communists that are against/dont believe in centralized power, as it perpetuates hierarchical structures, including the patriarchy, colonialism, etc.

Hi, im a socialist, a libertarian socialist, an anarchist

It sounds more confusing than it is eheh

 

[Ostia]

Hey I’m anti capitalist, does that make me a socialist?

No but it could if you explore that more. Simply the rejection of or opposition to capitalism isn’t enough to be considered socialist, because socialism is not simply the rejection of the capitalist system; it’s the adoption of a new system in which the means of production are owned by the workers, in which needs are provided for by society rather than exploited for profit, etc.

Does that describe your political ideology?

Edit: My understanding is that anarchists are generally considered socialists.

 

[Fodder Aplenty]

No but it could if you explore that more. Simply the rejection of or opposition to capitalism isn’t enough to be considered socialist, because socialism is not simply the rejection of the capitalist system; it’s the adoption of a new system in which the means of production are owned by the workers, in which needs are provided for by society rather than exploited for profit, etc.

Does that describe your political ideology?

Edit: My understanding is that anarchists are generally considered socialists.

Sounds like me!

 

[Costa]

Hey all! Glad to see several familiar faces here.

Don't think I ever really introduced myself much before but I've always been a lurker.

I've always considered myself "socialist," as an alternative to capitalism, but it wasn't until recent years when I've learned what it really means to be socialist. And of course there's plenty of theory to go around but I think I'm firmly in the ML camp and wanting to see the "dictatorship of the proletariat" happen in Western countries in my lifetime.

Looking forward to seeing this community evolve here and being a positive radicalizing force!

 

[Oheao]

Also, if anyone has any recommendations on how I can improve the OT, that would be greatly appreciated. I may try to work something up but I just kind of made it in a quick rush.

 

[Brock Reiher]

Also, if anyone has any recommendations on how I can improve the OT, that would be greatly appreciated. I may try to work something up but I just kind of made it in a quick rush.

Maybe a reading list eventually, or answers to some of the basic questions already asked regarding all the different -ists and -isms. It a good OP tho the important thing is the thread.

 

[DrWong]

Nice thread!

I don't know about you guys but I'm super hyped for socialism and post scarcity economy. I've read most of Marx, Engels, Lénine and Trotski stuff, and all Iain M. Banks The Culture cycle books, so day 1 for socialism

 

[CloverNotes]

What are some good starting socialist book recommendations?

 

[Mekanos]

What are some good starting socialist book recommendations?

It's a boring answer but Communist Manifesto. It's a pretty short read, you could probably finish it in one sitting. Then after that you can branch out. State And Revolution is also very good and not too long, Conquest Of Bread as well is considered a cornerstone.

I've also heard good things about ABCs Of Socialism but I haven't personally read it.

 

[CloverNotes]

It's a boring answer but Communist Manifesto. It's a pretty short read, you could probably finish it in one sitting. Then after that you can branch out. State And Revolution is also very good and not too long, Conquest Of Bread as well is considered a cornerstone.

I've also heard good things about ABCs Of Socialism but I haven't personally read it.

I have the ABCs Of Socialism, but I haven't read it yet. Thanks for the recommendations. I'll check them out.

 

[Seacat]

I've seen anarchist comrades often recommend Malatesta's Anarchy specifically over the bread book fwiw, I've read the latter and not the former and I think Conquest is a very easy read, but a lot of it is very specific to the time it was written in. My understanding is Anarchy is more generalized.

As for the manifesto, I can only speak from personal experience but when I was a baby leftist and I got that suggested to me, I really didn't understand it. Aspects of it can be kinda obtuse if you're going in from zero. Of course, with a forum to post on, you could always ask clarifying questions but alternatively, I'd suggest alongside the manifesto The Three Sources and Three Component Parts of Marxism, The Principles of Communism, and Socialism: Utopian and Scientific, which should make the manifesto more readable. The first two of those are very short, the third is longer but worth reading.

Also hello I posted on occasion but mostly lurked at the other place, likely to be the same here, I'm still on the learning path myself so I try to abstain from most political discussions as I have an exhaustive history of putting my foot in my mouth the one thing I can do is point people to good things to read that have helped me in my own development.

 

[Marce-chan]

Also, theres niche right wing positions like right wing libertarianism and anarcho capitalism, that are incoherent and crazy ideologies but well, they exist and dont promote social order and authority

Lol that thing went quite noisy here in Brazil since the strike against president Dilma in 2016 and everything that build up to the election of the fascist that rules the country today in 2018. I was among the ones who felt for this fairy tale and I'm ashamed as hell of it(well, I was in my 14 yo dumbness and self hatred due to internalized homophobia so I shouldn't blame myself too much).

It's real crazy talk. The right wing libertarians who worship Mises - who was an advocate for slavery and said that the relations between the sirs and the slaves were very humane. Yep, no wonder why those people think capitalism is nice, or that the poor people enrich by being put into risky and slave analogue workplaces. These assholes also adore cruelties like Pinochet and The Crusades. And are against the state to provide education, healthcare and save someone from starving, but are super in favor of the state using its cops to kill people, and limiting the rights of LGBT+ people.

Anarcho capitalism is a joke by itself lol. I mean imagine being supposedly against the oppression of state just so the oppression is made by the multimillionaire??? Like it wasn't already lol. There's a guy in Brazil who advocates for the horrors committed by the Catholic Church during the Medieval era, supports the fascist president with all his force and says that it's unethical for someone to prohibit or punish a guy for torturing a cat because that's their property. That same asshole thinks conversion therapy is something needed and thinks it's a gay person's problem to suffer from homophobia.

I mean, the supporters of those ideologies here are vile to say the very least. Not that the liberals(in Brazil it means what the non-trump republicans are) aren't just as vile. The front movement responsible for the strike against president Dilma and election of Bolsonaro, MBL, is now selling themselves as an alternative to Bolsonaro, like if they were an intelligent right wing. What they in fact do is have the exact same values and agenda as Bolsonaro. I hope everyday people don't fall for it again. I can't stand another 4 years under a government that attacks my existence as some form of mass appeal - sadly homophobia and transphobic were a key element for the current government to be elected. Oh well.

 

[Marce-chan]

This image is just too good not to be thrown here fellow comrades.

Edit: sorry, I'm not used to putting images so earlier I put one that was posted like an Amazon ad.

 

[Brock Reiher]

What are some good starting socialist book recommendations?

State and Rev is short and easy to read. Plus most will come with a forward written by a British guy that says some shit like "remember that while this makes sense, it's actually evil" which is funny.

 

[Oheao]

This image is just too good not to be thrown here fellow comrades.

Edit: sorry, I'm not used to putting images so earlier I put one that was posted like an Amazon ad.

Ah, I see being kinky is a common trait among socialists.

 

[Marce-chan]

Ah, I see being kinky a common trait among socialists.

 

[gogosox82]

What are some good starting socialist book recommendations?

Communist Manifesto. Its very short and easy to read
State and Revolution. Again very short and relatively easy to read

 

[Quzar]

Yall on that lean?

 

[Quzar]

State and Rev is short and easy to read. Plus most will come with a forward written by a British guy that says some shit like "remember that while this makes sense, it's actually evil" which is funny.

 

[Mekanos]

Yall on that lean?

don't talk about your friend that way

 

[Brock Reiher]

don't talk about your friend that way

he always bullies our kind...

 

[Mekanos]

 

[Terrell]

Those are the 2 of the most popular, but there is a literal metric tonne of books written on the subject, from multiple different angles, that predicted the oddities of modern capitalism. Buffett probably considers them all in the fiction column, though, cuz he's a wanker.

 

[Phosphorescent Skeleton]

Glad we have this thread to balance out the other political thread here, where the message is "Better things aren't possible, so stop asking for them".

 

[Mekanos]

 

[Sailor Moon]

Anyone else in a “must crush capitalism” mood this lifetime

 

[Terrell]

So two things:

1. I'm not the least bit surprised
2. When the most politically-engaged teenagers in the entire world disavows liberal democracy before she is ever able to cast her first vote, that can only be seen as the most serious possible indictment

Also, I watched the video from that tweet. The saddest part is how Thunberg recounts tales of how politicians tried to get her into politics, even as she calls liberal democracy an ineffectual farce. Liberal politicians being incapable of reading the room with a single person in it sounds about right to me. It's like telling a vegan they should become CEO of a leading meat & dairy producer to promote veganism.

 

[Azuran]

Anyone else in a “must crush capitalism” mood this lifetime

I've been at it ever since I realized we're never getting another F-Zero as long as profits is the only things than matters.

Liberate the artists by abolishing wage slavery.

 

[gogosox82]

lol no textbooks expect for all the textbooks that do talk about it happening.

 

[lemonfresh]

What does socialist fami think of Hasanabi the twitch streamer. I've been watching his streams for a while and have been enjoying them for the most part.

 

[Deleted member 1108]

What does socialist fami think of Hasanabi the twitch streamer. I've been watching his streams for a while and have been enjoying them for the most part.

In general I treat all left youtubers and streamers as entertainers. I haven't watched that guy but I know who he is, and he seems fine? Like, I know some people treat him like The Left Manager on Twitch but he's just a talking head for me.

 

[Mekanos]

What does socialist fami think of Hasanabi the twitch streamer. I've been watching his streams for a while and have been enjoying them for the most part.

I've never watched his stream and generally avoid the whole internet leftist celebrity sphere. So I have no strong feelings about him one way or the other.

Generally speaking I feel like the purpose of this group of people, in theory, is to get people interested in basic leftist 101 stuff, but usually I feel they divert attention away from important revolutionary sentiment and get viewers sucked into a whirlpool of internet drama and gossip. There are a few socialist YouTubers like Hakim and BlackRedGuard that do deeper dives into theory, history and analysis, but generally they're the exception to the norm.

 

[gogosox82]

What does socialist fami think of Hasanabi the twitch streamer. I've been watching his streams for a while and have been enjoying them for the most part.

He's mostly harmless but a bit cringe. I say a decent intro in socialism for young people but id hope they would read some as well as not rely on Hasan to tell them what to think which is what i think happens with these streamers/youtubers.

 

[gogosox82]

In general I treat all left youtubers and streamers as entertainers. I haven't watched that guy but I know who he is, and he seems fine? Like, I know some people treat him like The Left Manager on Twitch but he's just a talking head for me.

lmao left manager of twitch

 

[Azuran]

What does socialist fami think of Hasanabi the twitch streamer. I've been watching his streams for a while and have been enjoying them for the most part.

They're all good for learning new things in a casual setting as long as people don't treat their words as gospel. I don't even find them troublesome even if they're not full-blown socialists as long as they're not spewing blatant right-wing propaganda to support their arguments and viewpoints.

 

[Seacat]

I've never watched his stream and generally avoid the whole internet leftist celebrity sphere. So I have no strong feelings about him one way or the other.

Generally speaking I feel like the purpose of this group of people, in theory, is to get people interested in basic leftist 101 stuff, but usually I feel they divert attention away from important revolutionary sentiment and get viewers sucked into a whirlpool of internet drama and gossip. There are a few socialist YouTubers like Hakim and BlackRedGuard that do deeper dives into theory, history and analysis, but generally they're the exception to the norm.

Not speaking on Hasan specifically either as I have very little awareness of him, but I just wanted to add that with some of these figures there is also a more malicious element of both anti-communist sentiment and/or distortion of anarchist principles (if you are on twitter or reddit you have no doubt run across young "anarchists" essentially arguing for social democracy). There is a tendency to reinforce a false idea of theory as dogma, to discourage viewers from making any effort at engaging with it, to inoculate them against more radical ideas so that they remain in the reformist camp, oblivious to arguments against that position and unwilling to hear them. Which of course also means that these people aren't organizing, at least outside of the bourgeois apparatus.

All that is to say, I just hope that people be careful with such figures and maintain a desire/effort at being properly informed outside of them. It's important to push forward figures who do draw from theory and history, and who do attempt to educate their audience from an informed perspective as well, like the names you mentioned. On Twitch specifically I would add to them TheKultureTV, TheReadArmy and PinkoTheBear as well.