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Discussion Nintendo should make a powerful console.

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Shadow said:
I get their approach, but I would've liked it if they hadn't gimped the Switch somewhat. The Tegra fully supports 4k output and HDR, but for some reason they decided to cut both options. Same for .h265 support, it would've done wonders for games which use video files. but for some insane reason they cut it. I understand that they can't compete, and that's fine. But man, removing some of such obvious features just blows my mind...
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Wait, citation for the bolded?

The impression I get from reading this page is that h.265 support has not been excised.
If there's a reason for devs to not use h.265, it'd probably be for dodging the licensing/royalties messiness.
 
Let me add, hybrid to me is the way to go. And at some point, aside from them not wanting to sell at a loss, I also don’t think having an incredibly expensive system is the way for them to go co side ring their market. I don’t want to pay 500 bucks for a console.

I also want my portable to not be heavy and bulky with a 2 hour battery life.

People point out to the Deck, which is very cool, but it is expensive. The entry model which is 400 is not that great considering no SSD and small storage for the type of games PC players like. Battery life is not great for bigger games and when Valve recommends tinkering and lowing fps to 15 to get juice…. No thank you.
 
If you are arguing that it would be nice for you if Nintendo re-entered the console race, then your stance is inscrutable. Despite the enthusiast culture of buying everything, I agree that it's nice to own one product for all games, and not needing a separate Nintendo device when you also want to enjoy the cutting edge of the industry would be nice. Nintendo going third party would notably accomplish the same thing (and would almost certainly be better for everyone involved).

However, the continued insistence that it would be better for Nintendo is laughable when the Switch is selling as well as it is. They've carved a comfortable niche with it.
 
CastletonSnob said:
Nintendo has enough money to lose money for 50 years and still stay in business. They absolutely have enough money to make a powerful console.

Why do Nintendo fans keep making excuses for Nintendo's unwillingness to make a powerful console?
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Nintendo doesn't have near the cash to play around with that other competitors do, just because they have a lot of money doesn't mean it makes sense to sell hardware at a loss, they would need to establish other avenues of revenue which would put them down the same slope the other two are on, with microtransactions, F2P gimmicks, subs, etc, so no, no thanks.
 
Crusters said:
One of my 'favourite' 'stupid decisions' was Nintendo dropping the ball with DMA Designs and body harvest.

Body harvest was supposed to be an N64 launch game, touting the power of the system by it's open world on foot and vehicular gameplay, DMA Designs was hoping they could score a second party situation with Nintendo (something similar to what rare ended up with) it's a whirlwind of a story, but basically Noa and noj kept telling dma completely different, often contradicting things had to be in the game, it went into developer hell, missed it's launch date by.... An eternity, and nearly ruined DMA design, who was bounced around the publisher pinball machine, until eventually ending up becoming rockstar games, and turning the code base first established in body harvest, into the basis of gtaiii.

Nintendo screwed the pooch on getting rockstar/GTA exclusivity.
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That explains why Nintendo consoles don't get GTA games.

Nintendo also treated Argonaut games poorly.
 
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Clix said:
Let me add, hybrid to me is the way to go. And at some point, aside from them not wanting to sell at a loss, I also don’t think having an incredibly expensive system is the way for them to go co side ring their market. I don’t want to pay 500 bucks for a console.

I also want my portable to not be heavy and bulky with a 2 hour battery life.

People point out to the Deck, which is very cool, but it is expensive. The entry model which is 400 is not that great considering no SSD and small storage for the type of games PC players like. Battery life is not great for bigger games and when Valve recommends tinkering and lowing fps to 15 to get juice…. No thank you.
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It's also loud. I can play the Deck anywhere as long as no other humans are nearby
 
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Clix said:
People point out to the Deck, which is very cool, but it is expensive. The entry model which is 400 is not that great considering no SSD and small storage for the type of games PC players like. Battery life is not great for bigger games and when Valve recommends tinkering and lowing fps to 15 to get juice…. No thank you.
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Deck is cool but I'm never, ever taking that on the train with me.

Meanwhile I saw the Switch OLED for the first time a few days ago. Oh my. In terms of sleek factor it's up there with the GBA SP and DS Lite, and that screen.
 
p@scal said:
turns out 110 million people don't need a gazillion of polygons to enjoy their Animal crossings and their Marios
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This does get at another point: Nintendo games tend to have such top-notch art design that they don't live or die on graphical power (and they don't publish the type of realistic, sim-based games that would demand it like Sony or Microsoft do).

This isn't to say that Sony and Microsoft games don't have dope art design because they do (see Astro or Tsushima for starters), but yes, Nintendo doesn't need cutting edge graphics in their console to make Animal Crossing or Super Mario Galaxy pop out.

Galaxy is that gorgeous and it ain't even in HD. That should tell you something.
 
definitely not interested in nintendo trying to compete power-wise, but a more powerful hybrid console would be ideal with the switch starting to seriously show it's age
 
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The market has already clearly spoken that Nintendo can release relatively underpowered hardware and be completely successful. Why would Nintendo want to deal with bigger jumps in production costs and longer development cycles every generation when they don't have to (relative to the competition)? Their current software workflow has proven quite successful and a good portion of their titles do not rely on having high budgets or the prettiest graphics in the first place.
 
The Switch was a very powerful hybrid console at the time of release. So your wish has been granted. Unless...
CastletonSnob said:
they failed because Nintendo made stupid decisions with those consoles
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You want Nintendo to make a stupid decision and get rid of the hybrid form factor.
 
CastletonSnob said:
I've heard people make the argument that "Nintendo shouldn't make a powerful console to directly compete with Sony and Microsoft, since the N64 and GameCube, both powerful consoles, failed!"

Here's the thing: The N64 and GameCube didn't fail because they were trying to compete against Sony and Microsoft, they failed because Nintendo made stupid decisions with those consoles, like sticking with cartridges and using mini-DVDs. A Nintendo console on par with the PS5 and Xbox Series X would most likely do very well. Imagine a Nintendo console with amazing first party AND third party games, and having Mario and Zelda in 4k and 60 FPS.
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So, let’s assume, in an alternate world, that Nintendo made a home console on par with the PS5. What’s going on with their portable business in this strategy, as they now have the same problem of two product lines and two software ranges and games taking longer and longer to make?

The Switch exists and is crazy successful as it solved this problem by consolidating everything, their product lines, their customer base, their software development, their marketing/branding, everything. I don’t see how Nintendo can make a high-end, PS5-style console while also having the successor to the 3DS and supporting both in 2022. It’s a different issue that needed solving that addressing ‘lack of third party support’ by making the same console as everyone else wouldn’t solve. As the only way to have a hope of it working would be to throw the portable line, their breadwinning, most consistently successful product line over 30 years, that also comprises a whole market they have to themselves and have completely dominated for 30 years, without needing five years of development for games, under the bus.

‘Lack of third party support’ is an issue, but it’s way less of an issue than the core problem of rising costs and time required for software development across home consoles and portables, which makes the Switch a way more elegant solution than just making the same product as everyone else and hindering your main differentiating factor and strength.

I’d say Nintendo ‘making a powerful console’ as a strategy should be at the bottom of the list under the obviously successful ‘make a hybrid that consolidates our strengths’, but also under ‘sod it, just make portables’ in the middle, given that both of the above leverage their actual strengths.
 
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I like the hybrid nature of the Switch, so wouldn't want to sacrifice that for... what I basically have with the other consoles.
 
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CastletonSnob said:
If Nintendo made a powerful console, they'd get the same third party support as Sony and Microsoft, which means more people would buy the console.
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Hasn't the Switch already sold more than the PS4/XBO? Especially the Xbox. Power doesn't automatically translate into sales.
 
Tentacle-tropes said:
Excuses for what? What are we making excuses for that the company has clearly shown they just frankly don’t want to do it.

Here’s an article with Miyamoto a couple years after the GC

Whether you like it or not the company sees themselves and the industry in a certain way. And, will stubbornly stick to it come hell or high water.
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LukasManak22 said:
"If you only expand upon existing hardware, it's dull. In some shape or form, we're always thinking about how we want to surprise players as well as our desire to change each person's video gaming life." - Satoru Iwata
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Thank you. Corroborating these two points:

- As I said in the recent joke thread about uber-realistic graphics on Switch, Nintendo enjoys working within some hardware limitations. Not displaying super-detailed graphics leaves an "imaginary gap" to the players, and Nintendo likes that. People inside Nintendo still actively ask themselves if they need the HD graphics provided by the Switch - do they need a Nintendo BoxStation 5X for the next Mario or Animal Crossing?

- From a business perspective, we should note a lot of Nintendo games have a different audience than PS5/XB games. A Nintendo BoxStation 5X would probably be too expensive for the millions of people buying Animal Crossing and Ring Fit (two games which, as said, would gain nothing by running on a more powerful machine). And the millions of people buying Pokémon and Animal Crossing enjoy playing on the go. We also have millions of people buying Mario Kart who enjoy racing with friends both on TV and during a picnic thanks to the Joycons.

- Back during the GC era, when Nintendo had the second most powerful console around (and it was close to the 1st place), top people on Nintendo were saying things like

“Every game developer is shooting for nothing but realism and flashiness, so we’re seeing an overflow of games that look exactly the same,” said Yamauchi. “What does realism and flashiness have to do with fun? If more games with new types of gameplay and fun come on the market, the market will expand, companies will have more support, and there’d be a business to work with.”

Yamauchi also highly criticized large-scale AAA games and said companies who make these kinds of games will eventually go bankrupt. “Large-scale games are done for. If they continue to be made, then companies around the world will go under,” said Yamauchi.
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On May 16th, 2001, Satoru Iwata, director of Nintendo’s strategic planning, explained to reporters how graphics are now reaching diminishing returns. “There is not much more developers can do to impress players only with pictures. The hardest thing is to entertain,” said Iwata at a press conference before the opening of the Electronic Entertainment Expo. Two months after the GameCube’s successful North American launch, Hiroshi Yamauchi remained firm with his position that the industry should focus less on realistic graphics and more on ways to expand the market.
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When asked why Nintendo chose smaller disks for GameCube instead of standard DVDs, Shigeru Miyamoto explained that smaller disks sends a message to developers that they don’t need to make long games with realistic graphics.

“I’m not sure if it’s the whole world demanding realistic graphics or just a limited number of games players, but some developers are in the mindset that they feel threatened by the world into making realistic looking games right now,” said Miyamoto. “Therefore, they just cannot afford the time to make unique software because they feel the pressure to make realistic games and are obsessed with graphics.”

He continues,”In the end, they cannot recoup their investment in the game. So in a way, the smaller disc is a message from Nintendo that you don’t need to fill out the capacity of a normal sized DVD disc. If we want to make larger software, then we just make the game on two or three discs.”
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These are not one or two random devs. These are the President, the soon-to-be-President and the leader of the software development teams, sharing the same overall message in three different contexts. (And no, I'm not buying that mini-DVDs were chosen only to send a message - I'm pretty sure there were some other pragmatical reasons here. And yet, while I'm sure Miyamoto is not telling the whole truth here, I think he is not lying either).

So I think it's pretty clear that even when Nintendo could be focused on graphics, they weren't interested in the idea. But even without Yamauchi, Iwata and Miyamoto flat-out saying this, most Nintendo games don't need a super-powerful machine. On the other hand, the uniqueness provided by the Switch suits a lot of these games.

Additionally, a hypothetical Nintendo BoxStation 5X would not see plenty of third party support -- for a year the Wii U was the most powerful console on the market, and yet some key third party games (Tomb Raider or Dark Souls 2 come to mind) skipped the machine. Notably, some Japanese third party games which could easily run on the Switch are still only released on PS5/XB (like SMT Soul Hackers 2), or in the best case scenario Switch gets a laughable Cloud version (Kingdom Hearts 1-2 which, let's all remember, were PS2 games). If you think third party support on Switch is someone lacking, fine -- I get where you are coming from and to an extent, I agree. A more powerful hardware would not be the solution though.
 
CastletonSnob said:
If Nintendo made a powerful console, they'd get the same third party support as Sony and Microsoft, which means more people would buy the console.
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Switch will become the number 3 best selling console of all time.

Second, even if they were to get more third parties. It doesn't guarantee that an Xbox or Ps player gets the hypothetical Nintendo console over those. People go were their friends are, and now, where their purchases are tied to. It's going to be harder and harder for a PS and Xbox owner to go change ecosystem. Same will happen to Nintendo.
 
Power is overrated. But that goes both ways. I think it's weird that people think a more powerful console would cause Nintendo to fail, it wouldn't. But it also wouldn't be the cause of their success. There is so much more to a console than power that makes the difference.
 
KC Hazel said:
Power is overrated. But that goes both ways. I think it's weird that people think a more powerful console would cause Nintendo to fail, it wouldn't. But it also wouldn't be the cause of their success. There is so much more to a console than power that makes the difference.
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Nailed it. Again, the XBO is a big example of this. All the power in the world (at the time) and it still bombed out the gate. And the Wii outsold the X360 despite weaker hardware and (arguably) weaker exclusives.
 
KC Hazel said:
Power is overrated. But that goes both ways. I think it's weird that people think a more powerful console would cause Nintendo to fail, it wouldn't. But it also wouldn't be the cause of their success. There is so much more to a console than power that makes the difference.
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The big reason I think a powerful console would hurt Nintendo is that it doesn't answer the problem of having two hardware/software pipelines in 2022. So either you end up hamstringing the portable line or the home console one.
 
Magic-Man said:
Nailed it. Again, the XBO is a big example of this. All the power in the world (at the time) and it still bombed out the gate. And the Wii outsold the X360 despite weaker hardware and (arguably) weaker exclusives.
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Like with the N64 and GameCube, the Xbone failed because of stupid decisions. It never had a chance with that disastrous reveal.
 
CastletonSnob said:
If power isn't the answer for Nintendo's third party woes, then what is?
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Power is the answer, other than Playstation loyalty. But having good third party support doesn't mean the console will sell.

CastletonSnob said:
Like with the N64 and GameCube, the Xbone failed because of stupid decisions. It never had a chance with that disastrous reveal.
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What about my other point? The Wii (and the Switch) are still outselling every other console. Hell, another example is the Meta Quest. Very underpowered but still outselling every other VR system.
 
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With DLSS coming and the advent of indie titles that have become just as big a hit as blockbuster 3rd-party titles, I think this sole discourse around power when it comes to hardware is going to feel even more dated pretty soon.
 
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Here's an interesting angle: the Switch is a ridiculously overpowered successor to the 3DS, which afforded it great success
 
You don't think the N64 and GameCube would have sold much better if they used CDs? Because I find it hard to believe they wouldn't have.
 
Serif said:
Deck is cool but I'm never, ever taking that on the train with me.

Meanwhile I saw the Switch OLED for the first time a few days ago. Oh my. In terms of sleek factor it's up there with the GBA SP and DS Lite, and that screen.
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My pre order is still not up. But I know I won’t be taking that on vacation or a plane with me like I do with a Switch. Couch and plugged unless I’m going to the bathroom lol
 
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CastletonSnob said:
You don't think the N64 and GameCube would have sold much better if they used CDs? Because I find it hard to believe they wouldn't have.
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The GameCube literally did use DVDs, the mini discs were mini DVDs that had the same functionality as larger ones. That generation actually highlights that power often does lose out. The PS2 was the weakest hardware of its generation, but it sold a crap ton because of the support it had going in, and that it was cheaper than most standalone DVD players of the time. The original Xbox was more powerful, could play DVDs, pioneered online gaming, and had an industry shaking killer ap in Halo, and still just about tied with the GameCube in the end.
 
CastletonSnob said:
You don't think the N64 and GameCube would have sold much better if they used CDs? Because I find it hard to believe they wouldn't have.
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N64 maybe. NGC? Nah. Mini disc was enough for most games and games that needed more, two discs which is fine.

The PS2 has the advantage of it following the PS1 and a built in DVD player - which was not that great TBH. I bought myself a DVD player from toshiba which blew the pants of of it for 200 bucks. But for 300 bucks you got a game system and DVD player. Even if a crappy one.
 
WestEgg said:
The GameCube literally did use DVDs, the mini discs were mini DVDs that had the same functionality as larger ones. That generation actually highlights that power often does lose out. The PS2 was the weakest hardware of its generation, but it sold a crap ton because of the support it had going in, and that it was cheaper than most standalone DVD players of the time. The original Xbox was more powerful, could play DVDs, pioneered online gaming, and had an industry shaking killer ap in Halo, and still just about tied with the GameCube in the end.
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The PS2 sold so well partly because it was a LOT of people's first DVD player.
 
CastletonSnob said:
The PS2 sold so well partly because it was a LOT of people's first DVD player.
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That’s my point. It had functionality and price on its side, which was much more valuable in the end than being a more powerful system than its peers.
 
It doesn't jive with Nintendo's philosophy.

I can't remember if it is Miyamoto or Iwata, but a Very Important Person at Nintendo once bemoaned the diminishing returns of better graphics. You know, people always want more/better graphics, but then they want more than that, and more than that, and so on.

Game mechanics don't have the same level of diminishing returns. I would much rather them stick to their current path of innovating mechanically than "innovating" by creating more powerful hardware that is obsolete in ten years.

ALSO: N64 and Gamecube may have failed for other reasons, but their failures with third parties made way for the perception that they are a family console. I don't think there would be a lot of people giving up their PS5/Series X for the newest Nintendo console because they don't view a Nintendo console as the place for "mature" content.

ALSO ALSO: Nintendo's poor understanding of the Internet would hold back even the most powerful hardware among these folks.

Tl;dr: I don't agree, but I understand the frustration.
 
If they make a powerful console option within the family where I can play the first party games of the portable/hybrid with some enchaments I'm in already.

If this version could play current gen third-party games I wouldn't even buy other consoles anymore.
 
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I don't want Nintendo to compete in power. But I do want them powerful enough were there isn't a huge gap between consoles.

I still like their hybrid approach and would love to see a return to the Wii U in terms of duel handheld/TV gameplay.

Like having the dock give the main handheld more power.

And I would want the Switch 2 to explore different joycons in shape and design set up that can be switched in. Some with bigger grips, some shaped like a GameCube controller, some to flip the handheld vertically and play games long ways.

Nintendo shouldn't be in a position where they miss out on game releases because their console isn't strong enough to run them. And downgrading games dramatically for some poor 3rd party studio to do and provide no support after the fact or a cloud version of games is really unacceptable.

Not to mention Nintendo needs to not only catch up but blow everyone else in the water to their online service.
How bad their online service is and has been behind for YEARS. And their ignorance towards online gaming as a whole and that it took a freaking pandemic for them to realize online gaming and being able to communicate to friends through your console is only good tjong is just. -face palm-
 
Am I the only one who doesn't care about 4K? It doesn't make much difference to me. 720/1080P 60FPS is perfect IMO.
 
We’re getting a more powerful switch. Literally the only concrete thing we can say because of leak data from Nvidia themselves and not Twitter insider ramblings .

Only question is when and 2022 and early 2023 doesn’t have a snowball chance in hell of when it comes.
 
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Gingerbread Man said:
These are not one or two random devs. These are the President, the soon-to-be-President and the leader of the software development teams, sharing the same overall message in three different contexts. (And no, I'm not buying that mini-DVDs were chosen only to send a message - I'm pretty sure there were some other pragmatical reasons here. And yet, while I'm sure Miyamoto is not telling the whole truth here, I think he is not lying either).
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The same reason for why Nintendo went with their own blue-rays & CDs for WiiU & Wii. Nintendo largely does not like to pay royalties so if they can they will design & use their own stuff.
Gingerbread Man said:
I don't want Nintendo to compete in power. But I do want them powerful enough were there isn't a huge gap between consoles.
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Illucio said:
I still like their hybrid approach and would love to see a return to the Wii U in terms of duel handheld/TV gameplay.

Like having the dock give the main handheld more power.

And I would want the Switch 2 to explore different joycons in shape and design set up that can be switched in. Some with bigger grips, some shaped like a GameCube controller, some to flip the handheld vertically and play games long ways.

Nintendo shouldn't be in a position where they miss out on game releases because their console isn't strong enough to run them. And downgrading games dramatically for some poor 3rd party studio to do and provide no support after the fact or a cloud version of games is really unacceptable.

Not to mention Nintendo needs to not only catch up but blow everyone else in the water to their online service.
How bad their online service is and has been behind for YEARS. And their ignorance towards online gaming as a whole and that it took a freaking pandemic for them to realize online gaming and being able to communicate to friends through your console is only good tjong is just. -face palm-
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I don’t think Nintendo wants to deal with anything that has to do with a dock that gives extra power. Nor do I think they wanna offer multiple variant joy-cons. Sure they’ll probably iterate on both products but offering more then the standard is something they’ll just ignore.

Nintendo will consistently miss out of games with or without power. 3rd parties have all the tools & resources available to them, if they wanna pay for a cheap rushed port then there is not much one can do. If they wanna use the cloud for games that can run on the system that’s all on them. There are over 100mil+ switches out there with an active base if 3rd parties don’t see that as viable, power is not going to change that.

As for online the change came when Nintendo wants to keep their active subscriber base. The pandemic had little to do with it. And, they are never going to blow anyone out of the water with their service. As it currently stands they just need to fix the forward facing issues since a lot of their backend issues are relatively fine & modern.
 
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A lot of people have already covered most bases and I'll add that having a powerful machine doesn't even guarantee third-party support in this era of acquisitions. Nintendo could design a dream console for third parties just to have one of their competitors buy a major publisher and pull/limit support for business reasons. Even without acquisitions, look at how Sony are keeping mainline FF away from Xbox - and that’s the most powerful console backed by one of the wealthiest corporations in the world.
 
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CastletonSnob said:
Why have Nintendo's handhelds been more successful than their home consoles?
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In no particular order:
  1. Software that people want (Animal Crossing, Pokémon, etc)
  2. Consistent software releases compared to their console
  3. Often cheaper
  4. Mostly well made & throughout products compared to their consoles
  5. Able to tap into other audiences which their consoles are spotty on
  6. Outside the PSP no one really could match them in the space
 
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