JazzPotatoes
Koopa
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And what about posts like this?
"I'm a socialist, I just want to starve poor people, as a treat"
Is that totally A-OK because I happened to express support for Western sanctions against Putin and his allies?
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Discussion Socialism Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Oheao
- Start date
"I'm a socialist, I just want to starve poor people, as a treat"
Is that totally A-OK because I happened to express support for Western sanctions against Putin and his allies?
Dusa
Bob-omb
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You happened to support violence against Russian citizens
Linkstrikesback
Starman
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Edited it out because the staff post said so
Anton Sugar
Rattata
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Bernie is good as far as socialism via electoralism goes, but I don't think we need to valorize him just because of his level of success or status as a modern socialist icon. His position on BDS/zionism, speaking of, is an area where he's been disappointing.
I also don't think it's accurate to compare BDS, which is (at this point) still largely grassroots organized, to state-enacted sanctions. If we ever get to a point where a state takes on BDS as policy, maybe we can discuss it then, but BDS is more like a solidarity strike/picket line than it is a state sanction.
I also don't think it's accurate to compare BDS, which is (at this point) still largely grassroots organized, to state-enacted sanctions. If we ever get to a point where a state takes on BDS as policy, maybe we can discuss it then, but BDS is more like a solidarity strike/picket line than it is a state sanction.
Quzar
Rattata
I think calling yourself a socialist and advocating for the actions of an imperialist, capitalist, colonizer state are contradictory, yes.
D
Deleted member 2
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It's pretty disingenuous to insinuate that mods are policing certain opinions on the subject. I suggest you cool off.
Mekanos
おっす！
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I appreciate this. I'm sure a lot of messy geopolitical stuff discussed in this thread moderators don't really want to weigh in on but so far I feel like it's been handled about as well as it could be by you guys.
D
Deleted member 1108
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Speaking of sanctions:
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Sadly we're little better in the UK, since we happily sell arms to Saudi Arabia but never seem especially interested in what those arms are used for.
D
Deleted member 1108
Guest
Fercho
Touch Fuzzy get dizzy
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Doing this in a country like Russia is very dangerous for them. Still they are doing it, that's real courage.
JazzPotatoes
Koopa
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Within two minutes: "Russia is responsible for invading Ukraine, except actually it's Nato's fault."
This is the same line being peddled by Stop The War and other groups, where a token condemnation is made of Russia's imperialist actions, then the rest of the time is spent blaming NATO, despite the fact that the last time any supposed NATO expansion happened towards Russia was in 2004.
Given that NATO has yet to even get involved in any significant capacity in this conflict, and that western support has been entirely based around intelligence, weapons and economic sanctions, this response is in poor taste.
D
Deleted member 1108
Guest
I mean, it is NATO's fault lol Ukraine's has been NATO's bargaining chip for a long time and stringing them along with the pretense of maybe one day they letting Ukraine join, despite Ukraine being in Deep Shit since a long time ago
NATO was founded as a imperialistic alliance with the objective of cornering the Soviet Union / Russia. And before you start your usual routine of accusing us of siding with Putin just because we don't like NATO, no, this doesn't justify this war nor are saying Putin's action are a response to anything. We just don't agree that the response for imperialism is more imperialism.
Also, selling Ukraine weapons is a very significant way of getting involved in the conflict.
Ostia
Octorok
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Even former US officials are discussing the role NATO has played in this conflict. I also shared a video from Ukrainian peace activists condemning NATO expansion in the invasion thread, while also condemning Russian aggression and violence against their country. Russia is responsible for the invasion of Ukraine, NATO bears responsibility for escalating tensions for many years.
You find the response of Ukrainian peace activists actively fleeing from war “in poor taste” as well?
I would imagine any video aimed at American audiences would focus more on the aspects of the conflict that can be more easily addressed by Americans.
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They've essentially taken their Twitter account from them, cut their funding and cancelled their conference. Ostensibly, it's because of Young Labour criticising NATO and showing support for Stop The War and other pro-peace groups. They also threatened to suspend the whip from 11 MPs who supported the Stop The War statement, which caused them all to withdraw (the only ones who didn't, Corbyn and Claudia Webbe, do not currently have the Labour whip).
Young Labour is pretty unabashedly socialist though and Labour have been busy purging leftists from the party in recent years so this is just an extension of that. One of those things that was bound to happen once the proper pretext was found for it. The party's obsessed with chasing Tory and 'Red Wall' (former Labour constituencies that voted Tory in 2019) voters and has made it pretty clear that leftists can fuck off.
JazzPotatoes
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NATO was open about the possibility of Ukraine one day being able to join the alliance, while also being clear that being in an active conflict with Russia would prevent them being admitted (as it would drag NATO into an ongoing, pre-established war).
Nothing about that makes this NATO's fault, and if anything will make other countries close to Russia want to join as quickly as possible.
Finland says debate on NATO membership ‘will change’ after Russian invasion
Finish Prime Minister Sanna Marin on Thursday said Russia’s invasion of Ukraine will change the debate around NATO membership within her country.”Finland is not currently facing an immed…
thehill.com
Ukraine was not a NATO member, was not close to being a NATO member, had a previously established agreement with Russia, all of which Putin ignored or threw aside to invade Ukraine twice. Maybe if Russia stopped invading other countries, those countries wouldn't be so eager to join NATO.
NATO was founded as protection against countries that didn't want to get absorbed behind the Iron Curtain. It is a defensive pact countries can choose to join, and has a high barrier to entry.
When certain groups consistently spend more time condemning NATO than actually condemning Russia and Putin, as is the case with Yanis Varoudkis, Stop The War, Young Labour et all, then that is going above and beyond in spinning it as the fault of the organisation that didn't just roll every tank brigade it has over the Ukranian border.
There are a million different points to discuss regarding Russia's geopolitical aims in Ukraine and its reasons for invading. Individuals like Yanis Varoudkis and groups like Democracy Now would better spend their efforts actually investigating and discussing those, rather than claiming this is somehow the fault of an international organisation that hasn't accepted a member close to Russia since 2004.
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Tale as old as time, young progressives are the enemy to political parties because of their desire to influence party policy, but then the parties expect the young progressives to ignore all of their attempts to push them out of the conversation during election season and feign inevitability that young progressives don’t come out to support them at the ballot box.
Gammons and other old conservative/liberal windbags like them can’t die fast enough for my liking,
Branduil
Bob-omb
Not British but it really seems to me like the left there needs to leave the Labour party at this point, you're not going to fix the anti-left structures, they won't ever let anyone even as milquetoast as Corbyn get close to power again. Of course, the same is true of Democrats in the US.
Ostia
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Somehow not surprised you ignored the words of a Ukrainian peace activist condemning both Russian aggression and NATONATO was open about the possibility of Ukraine one day being able to join the alliance, while also being clear that being in an active conflict with Russia would prevent them being admitted (as it would drag NATO into an ongoing, pre-established war).
Nothing about that makes this NATO's fault, and if anything will make other countries close to Russia want to join as quickly as possible.
Finland says debate on NATO membership ‘will change’ after Russian invasion
Finish Prime Minister Sanna Marin on Thursday said Russia’s invasion of Ukraine will change the debate around NATO membership within her country.”Finland is not currently facing an immed…
Ukraine was not a NATO member, was not close to being a NATO member, had a previously established agreement with Russia, all of which Putin ignored or threw aside to invade Ukraine twice. Maybe if Russia stopped invading other countries, those countries wouldn't be so eager to join NATO.
NATO was founded as protection against countries that didn't want to get absorbed behind the Iron Curtain. It is a defensive pact countries can choose to join, and has a high barrier to entry.
When certain groups consistently spend more time condemning NATO than actually condemning Russia and Putin, as is the case with Yanis Varoudkis, Stop The War, Young Labour et all, then that is going above and beyond in spinning it as the fault of the organisation that didn't just roll every tank brigade it has over the Ukranian border.
There are a million different points to discuss regarding Russia's geopolitical aims in Ukraine and its reasons for invading. Individuals like Yanis Varoudkis and groups like Democracy Now would better spend their efforts actually investigating and discussing those, rather than claiming this is somehow the fault of an international organisation that hasn't accepted a member close to Russia since 2004.
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Yeah, 'stay and fight' seems hopelessly naive at this point, especially when it's more 'stay and roll over when threatened'. Honestly my sympathy for them diminishes every time they fail to make a stand.
Awena
Card Captor
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Thanks a lot for summing up the situation ! I wasn't aware of this clash between Labour leadership and Stop The War, is it only a recent thing since Ukrainian crisis?
This current situation is not a surprise, I know MPs like Jeremy Corbyn have been criticized inside the party for their support to Palestine, Irish Unity, etc and I remember seeing on twitter last month the Young Labour response to Keir Starmer's weak statement for Bloody Sunday 50th anniversary. Labour current leadership is a fucking mess
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Well a lot of the current Labour leadership are essentially Blairite, so I think it's fair to say they've never really been fans of Stop The War lol. They were a real thorn in the Blair government's side during the Iraq and Afghanistan invasions.
I don't think it's really come up as an issue under Starmer's leadership because Stop The War weren't especially prominent, though I don't pay super close attention to Labour internal politics so I could be wrong. Previously the big foreign policy battleground was Israel, as the leadership is pro-Israel and not especially fond of pro-Palestinian activists.
Lim
Rattata
Anyone knows any good left wing/socialist (not centre left) UK (or at least UK/europe focused ) news site? Our media is trash and I struggle to find any alternatives. There's the Guardian but they are centre left at best and not too great either, I also hate their website layout but that's another matter. Bonus if the site doesn't just report on political news, as I'd also love to see a left wing take on general news, arts, media, etc too.
crepuscule
Bob-omb
Tribune
Tribune is Britain’s oldest democratic socialist publication, offering leftwing perspectives on politics, economics, and culture.
tribunemag.co.uk
Home
The only English-language socialist daily newspaper in the world, published six days a week.
morningstaronline.co.uk
I'd like to know of others too
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The Morning Star has a history of platforming transphobia, including a particularly vile cartoon likening trans people to crocodiles 'who are transitioning to newts' to invade a pond and articles defending JK Rowling and Maya Forstater.
Admittedly that just means they're much like every other media outlet in the UK but... yeah. This was a few years ago so they may have changed their tune, but I still don't really trust them.
Admittedly that just means they're much like every other media outlet in the UK but... yeah. This was a few years ago so they may have changed their tune, but I still don't really trust them.
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How do the British folk here think of Corbyn?
I personally think he would have been a great prime minister if he had gotten elected
I personally think he would have been a great prime minister if he had gotten elected
tetragrammaton
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corbyn is a treasure. one of the few good people in politics. so obviously the corporate media hates him.
Sumio Mondo
Lynchian
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I voted for him despite knowing it was a lost battle. The media ravaged him for a reason, after all. He threatened the status quo. Cant be having that, can we? Politics doesn't allow for the likes of him to win.
Kind of funny how the threats of the 'money tree' soon got forgotten about when the Tories threw away shedloads of money on all sorts of vanity projects when they won or towards their friends.
JazzPotatoes
Koopa
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Corbyn started off great, ended up terrible, and now just needs to disappear: Too much of the leftwing movement in the UK is still hung up on him rather than finding new political leadership to rally around.
Corbyn pros; He genuinely pushed against the pro-austerity message that was dominant in politics at the time, and helped change the argument. Even the Tories have given up the argument for now, though Sunak is likely to bring it back if he becomes the next Tory leader.
Corbyn cons; he handled the issues of antisemitism in the Labour party badly, and irrevocably messed up his response to Salisbury. When everyone including all intelligence agencies are saying Russia just committed a war crime on UK soil, going to bat for the Kremlin by saying we should send them samples to investigate completely ruined any chance he had of being leader.
I mean, this is clearly bait.
But if you want to go down this route, smaller nations joining a union to prevent being fucked over by their large Uber capitalist fascist neighbour who keeps invading is kinda socialist, actually.
Makes sense when you remember that Clement Attlee helped create NATO in the first place.
Best PM we ever had.
Corbyn pros; He genuinely pushed against the pro-austerity message that was dominant in politics at the time, and helped change the argument. Even the Tories have given up the argument for now, though Sunak is likely to bring it back if he becomes the next Tory leader.
Corbyn cons; he handled the issues of antisemitism in the Labour party badly, and irrevocably messed up his response to Salisbury. When everyone including all intelligence agencies are saying Russia just committed a war crime on UK soil, going to bat for the Kremlin by saying we should send them samples to investigate completely ruined any chance he had of being leader.
I mean, this is clearly bait.
But if you want to go down this route, smaller nations joining a union to prevent being fucked over by their large Uber capitalist fascist neighbour who keeps invading is kinda socialist, actually.
Makes sense when you remember that Clement Attlee helped create NATO in the first place.
Best PM we ever had.
Ostia
Octorok
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You wanna comment on Ukrainian peace activists condemning NATO or are you still ignoring that?
Incredibly unsurprising that you hate Corbyn though, lol
D
Deleted member 2349
Guest
as an outside (US) observer I was never able to get a sense of if the anti-Semitism accusations levied against him and the party at large were justified or perpetuated up by folks on the right trying to get him out of power; are there any articles about that period that provide a good history?
JazzPotatoes
Koopa
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A Ukranian peace activist said they didn't like NATO
...ok?
Plenty of other Ukranians are still asking for more NATO support, and other East European countries are now having discussions about the joining process.
You seem particularly keen to slag off NATO though, with everything that's going on right now.
Did you miss the part where I voted for him twice?
I'm disappointed in Corbyn. He could have been good, but in the last few years of his leadership, time and again he made bad decisions, and surrounded himself with the worst team possible.
I'd rather he disappears and makes room for a new left wing politician to step into the spotlight. At the moment, he keeps dragging attention back to the worst possible stories (like Stop The War siding with Putin) and tarnishing the left wing movement as he does so.
Ostia
Octorok
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I’ve always hated NATO, as should anyone with even a passing interest in socialist politics. Anti-NATO is a foundational peace activist position across the globe, the fact that you are aghast at this position suggests either naivety or malice.
You said he mishandled anti-semitism, despite the fact that he was investigating anti-semitism in the Labour Party and was blocked and obstructed numerous times by the right wing of the Labour Party, who would eventually oust him. Corbyn has been a crusader for human rights and left wing causes his entire life, his track record is incredibly consistent and if I had to pick a single western political figure with a generally unimpeachable track record he’s right up there at the top.
JazzPotatoes
Koopa
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Antisemitism itself wasn't as rife in the Labour party as the worst media outlets made it out to be. One individual was responsible for around half the antisemitism complaints against the party.
What did Corbyn and his followers in, however, was the awkward attempt to keep glossing over any and all antisemitism as anti Zionism, anti Israel sentiment or just "cultural differences". There were enough examples of Labour staff and activists being too at ease chalking stuff up to the Israel lobby, or making jokes about Jews having money or controlling the media, that it made the party seem insincere. You can't really say "Antisemitism is bad, but it's also a fake story pushed by the media" without seeming duplicitous, especially when folk like Ken Livingstone were trying to push the Hitler was a Zionist claim.
So basically: it was an issue, it was probably blown into a bigger issue by insincere media pundits, but Corbyn and the leadership team made the mistake of not focusing enough on Jewish people affected by the issue, and being more focused on the media.
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Corbyn's ultimate legacy is that he utterly terrified the British establishment - including the supine Labour right. Having dealt with him, they will now do all in their power to ensure something like him can never happen again.
He deserved better. We deserved better.
He deserved better. We deserved better.
Ostia
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He was investigating the claims and attempted to take action about instances of anti-Semitism and was prevented from doing so by the wing of the party who now runs things. Your characterization of this situation is woefully inaccurate.
Monster Mash
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Comparing NATO to unions. lmao. jesus fucking christ
Monster Mash
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NATO brought open-air slave markets to Libya
You are a clown trying to do PR for these ghouls
D
Deleted member 1108
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bIdEn iS tO tHe LeFt oF oBaMa
Army of Light
Cappy
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When it comes to sanctions I feel like we got to do something. I don't know what but we got to do something. I think one thing that might help is being willing to take refugees, any refugees that come along. We got to be really open to refugees if we're going to involve ourselves in any way in these conflicts. If we make people refugees we got to take refugees.
