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Predictions What Paper Mario TTYD remake means for future of Paper Mario series?
- Thread starter MrGab
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Pillydillsy
The greatest banana sherif in town
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Regardless of what they do, it need to be different from what they have been doing. Having battles be a waste of time just makes these games so much worse, and the experimental gameplay styles aren’t even fun. Either remove the combat entirely or make it more like traditional JRPG’s
Lucifer
Like Like
It's not that weird to categorise them like that tho, the first three had one type of vibe, and the latter three had a different vibe. The first three felt like Mario stories told through a story book art style, the latter are an alternate paper universe of Mario. SPM also diverged from the first 2 games but still feels like it's a part of the first two games.
Linkstrikesback
Starman
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Battles in TTYD are just a much of a "waste of time" as in OK because of the scaled exp system that makes the statement "you should skip as many battles as possible" just as true of PMTTYD as it is PMOK, because you'll get much more exp per battle that way, but everyone mentioning that as a criticism of OK wants to gloss over that.
Gingerbread Man
Paratroopa
The "main universe" / "Paper universe" distinction seems to be something minor, overall, which only upsets the most hardcore of the fans (and I include myself among them, lol). To the average person, TTYD was an RPG with a Mario made of Paper, even though the game had little to no reference to this and was only esthetic, not diegetic.
SPM certainly has lots in common with 64 and TTYD, but at the same time:
- The gameplay is, obviously, completely different. You can argue that TTYD is closer to TOK than SPM, gameplay-wise;
- The "storybook" vibes are de-emphasized. The game takes place in another, "pixel"-ish dimension with its own art style. The Mario crew stands out, but they could have been portrayed in any way (with NES/SNES sprites, in 2.5D like New and Wonder, with Kotabe-like artworks, etc.), and nothing would have changed;
- Whereas 64 and TTYD had a lot of Mario characters and enemies (and that was part of their charm), everyone in SPM is an OC outside of the main cast. Even characters unique to Paper Mario, such as Kammy Koopa, are nowhere to be seen.
Likewise, TOK inherits a lot from SS and CS, but at the same time:
- Battles are no longer dependent on consumable items and are more like mini-puzzles;
- The game re-introduces partners, both in the overworld and in battles, and has more variety in terms of character design;
- The game narrative is more complex, with story sequences spanning multiple chapters, and the Shangri-Spa lore;
- Side characters have their own simple but compelling narrative, especially Bobby, and the Bowser-Bowser Jr. relationship is great.
Is the game perfect? No. The Shangry-Spa story ultimately leads to nowhere (the ending in general feels very rushed, almost like they cut a chapter), the Origami Craftsman being a generic Toad was a letdown, and the puzzle gameplay overstayed its welcome IMHO. Still, it was overall a good game, and I think a lot of people who disliked SS/CS recognised that (the consensus seems to be "Not the same as the older style, TTYD is still better, but a good game on its own right").
Pillydillsy
The greatest banana sherif in town
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Now the difference that is battling in TTYD is, you know, not torture to get through. Before I even got the first streamer in origami king I actively avoided fighting because of how annoying it was. Thousand year door on the other hand had a fun and engaging battle system that made me want to fight more. Maybe you are right about the scaled EXP, but at the same time leveling up in the TTYD also offered upgrades to your stats, so at least winning the fights got you something that you couldn’t get just by wandering about
Hailinel
Musou Mania!
Torture is a hyperbolic way to describe something as subjective as how fun a battle system is.
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I found the ring battles in TOK fun and engaging, and I never tried to avoid them. Different tastes I guess.
The fights aren’t pointless, either - the coins you get from them can be spent in the shops on items that grant permanent upgrades to your stats.
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Super Paper Mario is always funny in these discussions because it’s a clear series outlier both in terms of style and commercial success, but if you want to prop up the success of the first two games, you basically have to try and associate it with them, despite it being the definitive start of the series trend to step away from the RPG battle system and basically ditching all Mario elements altogether aside from a few token references. And it RULES. It’s not better than Thousand Year Door or Origami King to me, but it’s a game that I love exists, and shows such wild ambition that doesn’t always work, but it is certainly memorable.
The irony of all this is that a lot of the criticism levied at the later games is seen as a lack of creative ambition, when supposedly the feedback on Super Paper Mario was that it went too far and Sticker Star would be a return to basics.
The irony of all this is that a lot of the criticism levied at the later games is seen as a lack of creative ambition, when supposedly the feedback on Super Paper Mario was that it went too far and Sticker Star would be a return to basics.
Mer.Saloon
Chain Chomp
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I actually kinda liked the battle system if only because it reminded me of a puzzle game you'd see in old adventure games like Monkey Island's Swordfighting. The problem I had with it, is that it felt like it was still paying too much lip service to the "Turn-based RPG" roots of PM.
Was there really a reason after solving the circle puzzle that we HAD to select an attack that had only one solution? Why not just make the enemies disappear like as if we were playing a round of Dr. Mario? Save some bloody time.
As PUZZLES they're interesting, but when you slow down battles for these arbitrary "strategizing" moments, it just ruins any potential fun in them.
Future Paper Mario would be better off just dropping this remnant of the RPG aspect if they don't wanna commit to a proper turn based RPG ever again.
Was there really a reason after solving the circle puzzle that we HAD to select an attack that had only one solution? Why not just make the enemies disappear like as if we were playing a round of Dr. Mario? Save some bloody time.
As PUZZLES they're interesting, but when you slow down battles for these arbitrary "strategizing" moments, it just ruins any potential fun in them.
Future Paper Mario would be better off just dropping this remnant of the RPG aspect if they don't wanna commit to a proper turn based RPG ever again.
Vookatos
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I don't think I would describe a puzzle that takes like 10 seconds to complete as "torture". I honestly wonder if the mentality of "not TTYD = bad" makes some people approach the games with negative outlook right from the start, because if anything I'd say it's TTYD that suffers a lot from overuse of battles considering how many of them occur on levels that are just horizontal roads kinda like original 64's Paper Mario prologue. By the time I went through the same road for the 5th time (I've tried counting in my head how many times you actually walk along the same forest, I believe it's 6?) in the Doopliss chapter I was cursing the fact that I can't avoid them.
Also, battles in Origami King do give out rewards. They might not be straight-up exp, but that's basically splitting hairs over what number should go up.
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Origami King has Zelda progression. You incrementally increase your health and power stats through advancing the storyline and exploration, rather than directly through combat, which serves the purposes of either gating a story event or for resource acquisition.
Mer.Saloon
Chain Chomp
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Let's be fair, the puzzle is quick and pretty satisfying in its own way. But you still then have to select a weapon from the menu and then see the animation of it killing the enemies in one shot. There wasn't a single time in the game I didn't have the right weapon from the shop to just kill enemies in one shot which just makes the act of upgrading feel more arbitrary.
The only time you'd fail to kill all the enemies in one shot is if you did the puzzle wrong and couldn't line them all up, which still has nothing to do with the act of selecting the weapon.
All of this could have been resolved if they just removed that selecting bit and just had the enemies die when you solve the puzzle.
One of the reasons I think the series would go great in a non-combat direction. The overworld in Origami King was so fun. And populating areas with Toads was very satisfying. Just seeing those empty landscapes fill with life as you found more Toads was dang satisfying.
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Pillydillsy
The greatest banana sherif in town
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Okay, they weren’t torture or anything, I just thought they got really boring very fast. I actually kinda enjoyed them at first, but then got pretty bored, to each their own I suppose
winstein
Bob-omb
I have a feeling that if Paper Mario (N64) were to be remade, it would've had the white outline because it uses sprites like the later Paper Mario games, and I wonder how that would be reacted to, given how it's purportedly one of the things that some fans took umbrage on. I didn't see a big deal with it, especially for what they were going for (like how they wobble when it's windy). In any case, the papery world is a neat design choice and I am glad they went with it in the remake. I have a feeling that they wanted to do this back then but it's only now that they were able to pull it off.
You know what, one of my biggest wish for a new Mario RPG, including Paper Mario, is that one of the Mario regulars appear in the game. Personally my biggest issue with Mario RPGs in general is how overused the big four (Mario, Peach, Bowser, and Luigi) are, so much that I found that their interactions are already overplayed. Like you see Yoshi: he's what one would call a regular character, but for some reason, he's never joined Mario in his adventures much (THE Yoshi only did this in Mario + Rabbids).
I could do with someone new bringing fresh dynamics overall. Like if you add Daisy? Then we could see some new Peach + Daisy interactions, or Luigi and Daisy doing activities together, or even have Daisy give Bowser a piece of her mind. Original characters are fine and all, and might have been easier to do, but I prefer that the regular characters get enriched in a way that not even the Mario platformers would do. With that said, I am not even sure the remake would determine if this were to happen.
Thank you for reading.
You know what, one of my biggest wish for a new Mario RPG, including Paper Mario, is that one of the Mario regulars appear in the game. Personally my biggest issue with Mario RPGs in general is how overused the big four (Mario, Peach, Bowser, and Luigi) are, so much that I found that their interactions are already overplayed. Like you see Yoshi: he's what one would call a regular character, but for some reason, he's never joined Mario in his adventures much (THE Yoshi only did this in Mario + Rabbids).
I could do with someone new bringing fresh dynamics overall. Like if you add Daisy? Then we could see some new Peach + Daisy interactions, or Luigi and Daisy doing activities together, or even have Daisy give Bowser a piece of her mind. Original characters are fine and all, and might have been easier to do, but I prefer that the regular characters get enriched in a way that not even the Mario platformers would do. With that said, I am not even sure the remake would determine if this were to happen.
Thank you for reading.
Gingerbread Man
Paratroopa
And this is something the team actively wanted to achieve. Modern Paper Mario is a deconstruction of RPG tropes (why do we have to give the player exp and money?), and a follow-up to their experiments on DS Tingle games.
This is from the Iwata Asks chapter literally titled "Abandoning the RPG structure".
The end result might have been questionable in SS and CS, but
a) on a conceptual level, it is something interesting to experiment on;
b) Origami King by no way "perfected it", but at least made it work overall.
I've said it before but I think Super Paper Mario already did what the PM team is trying to do with the series nowadays lmao. It feels like they are going to end up at making a game similar to SPM gameplay wise. And honestly, I loved SPM. Give me more of it.
Hopefully the TTYD remake will be a success and SPM will get a remake as well.
OP
OP
MrGab
Boo
Also, that game ditched turn based battles, and still keep exp points that let you increase hp and attack power, so worth to defeat enemies. It would combine well with adventure style.
Hailinel
Musou Mania!
For everyone theorycrafting that TTYD remake will mean the next new PM will be more like it, this is not IS's first rodeo with remakes.
IS has to this point remade three FE games. The most influence any of those remakes had on newer FE games to date was the introduction of Avatar units, which were a brand new feature to New Mystery of the Emblem (they were not in the original).
Genuinely, unless TTYD sales are beyond unprecedented for the PM franchise, I would not expect this game to be anything more than a one-off revisit, with maybe new features not in the original making their way into the next new PM.
IS has to this point remade three FE games. The most influence any of those remakes had on newer FE games to date was the introduction of Avatar units, which were a brand new feature to New Mystery of the Emblem (they were not in the original).
Genuinely, unless TTYD sales are beyond unprecedented for the PM franchise, I would not expect this game to be anything more than a one-off revisit, with maybe new features not in the original making their way into the next new PM.
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pelusilla6
Bob-omb
Just bring them back 
Tye
All-around Nintendo enjoyer
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To be fair, they also introduced the feature to turn back time in Shadows of Valentia, which became a new staple quality of life feature that carried on to Three Houses and Engage, too. But yeah, I wouldn’t expect much of anything to be carried forward from this to future Paper Mario games except maybe some quality of life updates like that, if this remake introduces anything like that.
switchum
Providing Fami with bad takes a-plenty since 2022!
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As a fan of the first three Paper Mario games, I’d say that the future of the series is brighter than it’s been in a loooong time. Nintendo’s willingness to finally revisit the world and characters of TTYD, as well as their other recent ventures that stray from the “cookie-cutter” Mario games of recent years, show great promise for the future of this franchise. Just look at Mario Wonder and Mario RPG, which are both “weirder” (in a good way, and for lack of a better term) than the NSMB series and recent Paper Mario games. I find it hard to believe it’s a coincidence that these two games, as well as TTYD, are all coming out around the same time. Nintendo seems to have shifted their philosophy with Mario, and I am so excited for it.
Of course, I could be dead wrong and the next Paper Mario game goes back to the SS/CS/TOK style. But I do think that this shows promise and I’m more excited about the future of this franchise than I have been in a long time.
Of course, I could be dead wrong and the next Paper Mario game goes back to the SS/CS/TOK style. But I do think that this shows promise and I’m more excited about the future of this franchise than I have been in a long time.
AstroOhHey
Shriekbat
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I still think bar the remake horribly bombing it's a sign the next new Paper Mario is going to at least be a mix of the old/new era's approach towards story/character/world-building. Unlike the gameplay changes in SS/CS/TOK (and honestly Super too), I don't get the impression the far stricter approach to what they could use/create was something the team was fond of. Tons of cut content in SS, the CS concept art has a ton of more interesting stuff like the Doopless-looking character for the rock-paper-scissors minigame that seemed sanded-down for the final game and TOK actively feels like they're stretching to try and replicate PM/TTYD's vibe with far less creative-resources. Locations in TOK were also far less cookie-cutter NSMB locales; the Japanese amusement park would fit right in with the old games.
TTYD does well and bam, less 'the toad'/'the goomba'/'the koopa' style NPC's everywhere, new characters beyond the designated partner you're given (again, TOK tried harder here but I could see the craft tool bosses being a compromise), etc. Can keep things as an adventure game if you want but I still think how PM's world just wildly changed from Super to SS is what really soured things, more so than the gameplay changes (though I still don't like SS/CS lmao).
TTYD does well and bam, less 'the toad'/'the goomba'/'the koopa' style NPC's everywhere, new characters beyond the designated partner you're given (again, TOK tried harder here but I could see the craft tool bosses being a compromise), etc. Can keep things as an adventure game if you want but I still think how PM's world just wildly changed from Super to SS is what really soured things, more so than the gameplay changes (though I still don't like SS/CS lmao).
AtomicZach
Koopa
About as much as the other remakes have for the other Nintendo franchises. Maybe an element or two carries over but the new game will be its own thing.
Honestly, I kind of want them to go all in on the adventure aesthetic. It's clear that TOK sees it's Turn based battles as more puzzles than actual combat. Especially since the RPG battles are more "teach the user to rotate the circle for bosses" than actually wanting to do fights. Hell, I'd argue that by the halfway point, the game really doesn't want you to do the turn based battles at all, usually keeping them out of the way or used as punishments for failing a puzzle. The use of the hammer and jumping directly at enemies without entering a battle start getting more used as well.
And...yeah, the game is at its strongest when it doesn't tie itself to the RPG system unless its a boss. There is a genuine adventure feel for the games that I've never felt with any of the others. The full use of the paper aesthetic allows for genuinely beautiful sets and not being tied to the book format of the first two games definitely makes it a better visual experience.
To be fair, I DO think toads being different was gonna be a thing in the next paper mario game even without Thousand Year Door remake. The story of TOK kind of relies on every toad being the same visually and I think from dialogue that they want more unique toad forms.
Honestly, I kind of want them to go all in on the adventure aesthetic. It's clear that TOK sees it's Turn based battles as more puzzles than actual combat. Especially since the RPG battles are more "teach the user to rotate the circle for bosses" than actually wanting to do fights. Hell, I'd argue that by the halfway point, the game really doesn't want you to do the turn based battles at all, usually keeping them out of the way or used as punishments for failing a puzzle. The use of the hammer and jumping directly at enemies without entering a battle start getting more used as well.
And...yeah, the game is at its strongest when it doesn't tie itself to the RPG system unless its a boss. There is a genuine adventure feel for the games that I've never felt with any of the others. The full use of the paper aesthetic allows for genuinely beautiful sets and not being tied to the book format of the first two games definitely makes it a better visual experience.
To be fair, I DO think toads being different was gonna be a thing in the next paper mario game even without Thousand Year Door remake. The story of TOK kind of relies on every toad being the same visually and I think from dialogue that they want more unique toad forms.
Smash Kirby
Bob-omb
From what I understand one of the lead producers of TTYD was busy for a while with leading FE Cipher, with that wrapped up he can come back and take the reigns from Tenabe.
I might be wrong with that info I may of misheard part of it.
I might be wrong with that info I may of misheard part of it.
Superstarxalien
pfp by @ShiiNoctua
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there is no geno or mallow merch........
Clov
An ethernet cable girlfriend
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I don't think any Nintendo producer is on Cipher. And Mario will always have a Nintendo producer.
Doing a quick Google, the producers of TTYD was Miyamoto and the now-chairman of Intelligent Systems. So there's no one to come back
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You’re thinking of the director, Ryota Kawade
Linkstrikesback
Starman
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Tanabe worked on TTYD as well, and the director of TTYD, Ryochi is far too high of a pay grade to "take the reins" on any project. He was literally president of the company and if he didn't like the direction of paper mario, he could have changed it at least time, so yes, the thing you're asking for isn't going to happen and something was misunderstood anyway.
The fire emblem cipher person hasn't really worked on a videogame in almost a decade and there's no reason to think that wasn't entirely by choice. There's also no reason to think they've got any interest in returning to that work.
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Let's pump the breaks until we know who did the bulk of the work on this remake. If it was largely outsourced it very well could be that the next PM is already in pre/production and won't be influenced by how well this remake is received.
Earthbounder
Boing!
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I don't want to think too hard about it, because I don't want to have hope.
I want them to go back to making Mario RPGs, but this is the correct take. We've been told, especially via interviews, time and time again that this is basically the Nintendo way of making games. Particularly when it comes to franchises that (unlike say, mainline Mario and Zelda) are not constantly being worked on.
Gingerbread Man
Paratroopa
Tanabe did work on the original TTYD too. During the GameCube era, each game produced by the duo Shigeru Miyamoto + Kenji Miki also involved Tanabe in some fashion. When Iwata restructured Nintendo's internal teams and SPD was created, Tanabe got SPD3 and inherited the games produced by Miki, which were the most "EAD-ish" among those made externally. He was groomed as Miki's successor.
Partners In Time remake by ArtePiazza.
Delete this
Mer.Saloon
Chain Chomp
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Here's a thought, why does this remake and Super Mario RPG get the luxury of unique Toad designs again when Mario and Luigi didn't get that luxury back on 3DS. That should have benefited from the Grandfather clause but instead most of what made it visually unique got stripped away.
Superstarxalien
pfp by @ShiiNoctua
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it's likely due to budget reasons, some original designs in mario & luigi stayed while others didn't
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I'm not holding my breath. I am thankful for my TTYDHD remake, and expecting nothing else.
The boss fights in TOK were engaging and I enjoyed them, but the personification of office supplies did little for me. The minion battles were equally egregious and after dealing with puzzles that were either braindead simple or downright frustrating that made me question my own intelligence given how simple they were to solve, I just ignored them myself from the third streamer onwards. It also didn't seem to have any challenge to equip hammers or boots that were breakable, given you still had full access to your entire inventory even in the middle of battle despite only having three accessible at a time. In my eyes, it just seemed poorly designed that they didn't account for a loophole like that.
I would like to see PM return to its roots, but I'm just as equally content knowing the series has moved on without me and I can put my money towards other games I want to enjoy.
The boss fights in TOK were engaging and I enjoyed them, but the personification of office supplies did little for me. The minion battles were equally egregious and after dealing with puzzles that were either braindead simple or downright frustrating that made me question my own intelligence given how simple they were to solve, I just ignored them myself from the third streamer onwards. It also didn't seem to have any challenge to equip hammers or boots that were breakable, given you still had full access to your entire inventory even in the middle of battle despite only having three accessible at a time. In my eyes, it just seemed poorly designed that they didn't account for a loophole like that.
I would like to see PM return to its roots, but I'm just as equally content knowing the series has moved on without me and I can put my money towards other games I want to enjoy.
Truno
Koopa
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That was established by Sticker Star
Most Nintendo franchises will get 60fps on the Switch 2. Paper Mario is one of them.
Cantaim
Shriekbat
Yea I know people liked them, but they were remakes made within 1 year of each other from a studio going through financial trouble. It very much could have been an issue of time and money.
I don't know mayne, Intelligent Systems really worked them visuals on Switch. who's to say they won't do the same on Drake
Linkstrikesback
Starman
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Both mario and Luigi 3ds remakes had plenty of unique toad designs such as general starshade ( https://www.spriters-resource.com/3ds/marioluigisuperstarsagabowsersminions/sheet/97860/) and benefitted from the exact same 'grandfather clause' and it sounds lile you've let the internet hyperbole over the mario RPGs overwrite the actual situation that happened.
Any limitations were because they were drawing many sprites at a much higher fidelity than the GBA ones with far more frames than the GBA games had.
And no, they didn't just reuse sprites from the other 3ds Games either, which is something I've often seen stated, because if you compare any two of the games sprites, it becomes immediately obvious that practically all the sprites were at minimum changed to better match the games they originally came from.
Origami King did not have any graphical upgrades from Color Splash, and since IntSys is a small developer, I would guess that they will prioritize frame rate over graphics in Switch 2.
Of course, this assumption could be wrong, but small Japanese developers tend to prioritize frame rate over graphics. This was the case with Falcom.
