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StarTopic What can Smash 6 do differently from Smash Ultimate?

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Super Smash Bros. Ultimate is the biggest smash game out of all Smash games in the series thus far. Everyone from Smash Melee, Brawl, & Smash 4 have made a comeback (66 characters), as well as nearly all stages from Smash 1-4 & Smash 3DS (96 stages in total). And of course, we've been given 23 newer characters & 19 newer stages on top for Ultimate. Altogether, that's a total of 89 characters & 115 stages from 40 different franchises.

And 18 of the characters are 3rd party (consisting of Banjo & Kazooie, Terry, Pac-Man, Ryu, Ken, Mega Man, Solid Snake, Simon, Richter, Sonic, Bayonetta, Joker, Cloud, Hero, Steve, Sephiroth, Kazuya & Sora). Masahiro Sakurai & his team have been putting out all of the stops to make this possible, & they ought to be showered with praise for it. The only thing that was wrong was the online play (why couldn't you pressure Bandai Namco who had helped you work on this game to give us something like Rollback Netcode, Sakurai? They did it for Mario Kart 8 & Mario Kart 8 Deluxe!).

But now comes the inevitable: What can Smash 6 do differently from Smash Ultimate? Unless they plan on making another version of Smash Ultimate for the Switch successor, eventually, everything will have to start over from scratch. Not all 89 characters will make a comeback, especially not the majority of 3rd party characters due to licensing hell (unless it's someone very safe like Bayonetta, Ryu, Mega Man & Sonic).

Also, I hope that if any of the echo fighters will return, they'll be completely revamped & are given completely different movesets &/or final smashes from their counterparts, like Dark Samus, Dr. Mario, Young Link & Daisy. And give each of the cast different unique, victory themes to make them stand out from the main cast of characters (being Mario, Link, Pikachu, Kirby, Samus, Fox, Ness, Marth, Robin, Pit, Villager & Simon).

I'm sure there's more. Thoughts?

Edit: Oh yeah, & have Xander Mobius bring back "The Winner Is..."insert character's name!" (& "The Winners are" in case of Rosalina & Luma, Ice Climbers & Banjo & Kazooie), instead of "Insert character Wins!".

And bring back longer themes the way they're supposed to be instead of cutting them shorter, such as Ice Climbers & Yoshi's.
 
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I want a good single player adventure mode. Something with SSE's production values but in modern times; I wouldn't say no to a crossover story RPG, but based on WoL, I don't know if I trust Sakurai's approach to that mode of game design enough to want that over something like SSE.

I would like some version of some classic single player focused modes returning, really. Break the Targets, Smash Run. I understand the logistics of not wanting to create unique stages or variations for ~100 characters, but even relatively pared back versions would be nice.

For the love of god, have good online. One Smash game with online that doesn't fall apart when you so much as look at it wrong. That's all I ask.
 
Aside from the obvious online gibberish. Give us another Subspace Emissary. World of Light doesn't cut it. The former had actual good storytelling and characters interacting, even if they didn't speak.
 
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A second Subspace Emissary would basically be untenable from a resource standpoint, it was already a huge timesink for Brawl and doing something like that with a roster more than twice the size of Brawl, with HD cutscenes, would be basically impossible.

So I think asking for that is pointless. But I would like them to continue to expand single player options. I like WOL/Spirit Board, but it could use more variety.

Obviously good online. More new stages, only 4 new stages in the base game was a letdown, even if the pre-HD stages had a lot of time put into them to be rebuilt, now they're presentable, so hopefully more new stages follow.

I'd like more options for alt costumes, like being able to unlock more. Having every character be forced to have only 8 alts seems like a missed opportunity.

Personally I would just be happy with a game that focuses on more new content. I'm not smart enough to think of big gameplay innovations. Mario Kart is basically the same game after 30 years, no need to rock the boat for Smash either I think. Keep as many of the old characters as possible, add more characters, stages, and music. Touch up the gameplay here and there. More boss battles (and for the love of god put in a Boss Rush).

Dixie Kong please
 
I’d love a costume for each character that is just retro style-look. I’d be a fun addition to have a N64 version/polygon version of each character.

Campaign could include some small stage 3D battles, to shake-up the formula. Character selection would have to be limited here, the original 8 or 12 could be the 3D battle roster. Or maybe some 2.5D campaign levels similar to Dread levels.

Maybe make Smash versions of objective based game-types like team Capture the Flag (example: flag has to be taken from opponents base and returned to yours, first to 3 caps wins, flag makes you move slower like in Halo), King of the Hill (I remember that was in Halo also), and Cops ‘n Robbers for example.
 
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The core game doesn’t need major touching beyond more characters and stages and better online. I’d like to see some fun side modes. Like there has to be something all these characters can do together besides just fight. Maybe we get a new spin on Adventure mode that’s like Kirby’s Great Cave Offensive, maybe they do an RPG or strategy game, kart racing, or fishing.
 
There's plenty it could do differently on paper, but Smash doesn't need to reinvent the wheel. This is one of my favourite quotes from Iwata in Ask Iwata, and it sums up how I view Smash as a series too:

“As new titles were added to the Super Smash Bros. series, the cast of characters grew and new modes were introduced, so that each installment boasted an exceptional volume of content. In general, I think that making a game bigger is oftentimes not the way to make it better, but with Super Smash Bros. I see things differently. It felt right to squeeze as much in there as possible, like some kind of a bottomless vessel, the sort of game where quantity works.”
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Quantity just works for Smash. If the quantity of characters and stages goes down in the next installment the game will be lesser for it even if it tries to make up for it in other areas. There's still room for Smash to improve even while continuing to grow in those obvious areas of course; Ultimate's mode selection feels a little lacking without the return of stuff like Break the Targets, Boss Rush and Smash Run (should be a staple), and the online infrastructure (not just the netcode; GSP is a terrible system) needs to be entirely overhauled.
 
xghost777 said:
The core game doesn’t need major touching beyond more characters and stages and better online. I’d like to see some fun side modes. Like there has to be something all these characters can do together besides just fight. Maybe we get a new spin on Adventure mode that’s like Kirby’s Great Cave Offensive, maybe they do an RPG or strategy game, kart racing, or fishing.
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I'd be down for a racing minigame with like, 3-5 tracks, could be fun. You wouldn't need complex animations for it, just a sitting pose and maybe some cheering/losing/reaction animations. That's the main reason I don't see them going away from the core gameplay too much though, having to animate 90+ characters and generally doing things besides focusing on pouring resources into the game proper.
 
Mekanos said:
I'd be down for a racing minigame with like, 3-5 tracks, could be fun. You wouldn't need complex animations for it, just a sitting pose and maybe some cheering/losing/reaction animations. That's the main reason I don't see them going away from the core gameplay too much though, having to animate 90+ characters and generally doing things besides focusing on pouring resources into the game proper.
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Yeah I kind of imagine it like old school Mario Kart 64 you could just have the model have its back facing you and be kind of flat and then you never really turn the camera too much to break the illusion. Like it could even just be Mario Kart 64 with 90 some racers.

For any kind of mode like this, I think if it’s clear it’s just a fun bonus, whatever smart shortcuts they take there don’t matter as long as it’s fun.
 
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TBH, I really don't think quantity alone is going to cut it for Smash. I personally consider it on the verge of being stale as Pokémon circa SwSh. Not there yet, but it could be there by next game. I felt like I've been playing the same game for years late in Smash 4 and throughout Ultimate's life, so I didn't really consume all the (meager) 1P content I could in those games like I did Melee and Brawl.

Anyway, I do think the core gameplay itself can be improved in many areas. I'll crosspost some stuff I thought of on this SmashBoards thread:
  • Consolidate Cloud's Limit, Mac's KO Punch, and Terry's Desperation into a single "super meter" mechanic, and map the "Super Special" button to Y by default. You can build the super meter up to three charges, and using one super special will expend one of those charges (with a few exceptions). Super specials will be powered-up versions of existing specials, not new moves though.
  • Offer alternative movesets for certain characters (mainly the 64/Melee veterans) while keeping their original movesets as default to satiate those who want them revamped.
  • Add a "wavedash button" mapped to R by default. This would let you essentially wavedash easily, and it would even let you adjust the length of the wavedash by tilting the control stick as in Melee. What's more, all jabs and tilts as well as a few specials (like Reflector) should be cancelable with the "wavedash button", which would allow for greater grounded combo opportunities.
  • Replace air dodging with air dashing and air shielding. I find air dodging a bad mechanic for unnecessarily slowing down the aerial game by its very nature as an "invulnerable maneuver". Therefore, it should be separated into air dashing as the "burst air movement" option and air shielding as "aerial defense" that can be more quickly interrupted with a grab.
  • Redo most neutral airs as aerial jabs. This would give a pinch of that MvC flavor for more satisfying aerial combos.
  • Tying in with the above, make up tilts interruptible early with jump.
  • Make jabs cancelable into tilts. What I mean by this is that if you input the first few hits of a jab, the last hit can be replaced by a tilt. This can apply to both rapids and three-hitters.
  • Replace move staling with a more standard combo decay system. Like it or not, move staling overly favors the damage output of speedsters with a variety of combo moves over glaciers with one or two. Combo decay will make it so that speedsters won't utterly trounce glaciers in damage output.
In general, I think adding a universal "super move" plus a few more combo-friendly mechanics instead of balancing mainly around keepaway would make Smash even better.
 
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GrislyRaccoon said:
i always chuckle at this because before the game's initial release it literally had melee movement, except for wavedashing lmao. not sure why it was toned down.
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I'm guessing it's because greater ground-to-air momentum gives the speedsters a bit too much advantage, whereas less provides them a bit more even footing.

Yeah, it really doesn't stop speedsters from dominating still, but that's just more reason to start balancing around combos rather than keepaway and poking.
 
I think the series will go Smash Ultimate Expanded (like MK8 Deluxe) -> Longterm DLC support for that incarnation -> series goes on like a 10 year hiatus -> comes back rebooted as an arena fighter

samouraï said:
good movement mechanics like momentum conservation
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We could only dream. Focusing on this is the best possible scenario. I think most of the market that would be served by this is playing Melee or P+ now though, so I can't imagine this would happen unless Sakurai's team changes their mind on it.
 
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Call me simplistic, but all the new Smash needs for me is Dixie Kong and Rayman. I'll be good with just that and some of my mains returning.
 
I can only imagine how crazy the contract negotiations were for the third-party characters/content/music etc., but you would hope Nintendo had the foresight to lock-in deals for any future games (to the extent feasible), and/or an MK8-esque plan to extend the current game's lifecycle. We have at least 5 more years with the game if it gets re-released/updated with 4K on the next system (upgrade or successor).

Smash Ultimate really feels like a once-in-a-lifetime celebration of gaming (okay, Fortnite is pretty rad too), and I can't see Nintendo dropping the ball on its legacy and continued relevance.

Responding to OP, I really just want more content as I think the gameplay itself is perfect. Character costumes seemed like a real slam dunk and would have made them squillions, so more cosmetics/levels/music would be my top picks.
 
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kaya bunji said:
Smash Ultimate really feels like a once-in-a-lifetime celebration of gaming (okay, Fortnite is pretty rad too), and I can't see Nintendo dropping the ball on its legacy and continued relevance.
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As long as they recycle and touch-up the character and stage assets over and over again, I think it'll be fine while still leaving room to improve.
 
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Quillion said:
I'm guessing it's because greater ground-to-air momentum gives the speedsters a bit too much advantage, whereas less provides them a bit more even footing.

Yeah, it really doesn't stop speedsters from dominating still, but that's just more reason to start balancing around combos rather than keepaway and poking.
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Basically.
 
GrislyRaccoon said:
I think Namco Bandai is the best thing to happen to the series and it feels like they would now be the developer for future smash.
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I think as long as Sora Ltd. is working with any big publisher who can lend the people necessary to fulfill their ambitions for Smash, they can work with whoever they want.

God knows Game Freak needs to do the same.
 
MondoMega said:
why, to both of those.
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If it doesn’t do “everyone is here” over again, it just won’t live up to most fans, casuals especially. That’s why I wouldn’t be surprised if they Mario Kart 8 it for the next Switch

As for Namco well on top of making online play even worse than it was in Brawl (yes I say that unironically, I have hundred of hours on both), they have simply messed up the gameplay in multiple ways. From Smash 4 onwards they only made a few welcome, superficial changes that made 2014ers satisfied. Those are: no chaingrabs, reworking ledge grabs, no buffered powershield when airdodging to the ground (lag instead), and making the game less floaty. Other than that every other changes of theirs negatively impacts the game way more than tripping ever did. Rage is absolutely horrible. Shield is too strong, barely any push back when you hit it. Hitboxes and hurtboxes are messed up, they seem to follow too closely the outlines of the characters so now you have a lot of weird situations where your move whiffs due to z axis shenanigans. Priority system is out of wack, sometimes attacks will clash with projectiles that have no business clashing. Character designs are overall worse, a lot of them got unique aspects removed (ex. Wario tires, Snake dsmash, lots of previously autocancelling moves (lasers, Samus missiles) a lot of other moves etc). Therefore besides a few outliers every character has a very flowcharty and simple playstyle, you can just learn a character very quickly enough just in time to post a combo on Twitter. Essentially, all of those aspects make that having a good neutral game isn’t as rewarded, anything can happen due to jank and rage. This makes that the game is just not as fun to invest a lot of time into it anymore

I honestly won’t reply any further because I’m pretty sick and tired of Smash discourse (I played it competitively since 2009 and quit around the time Bayonetta ruined Smash 4, did enter a few Ultimate events when that came out). Namco Bandai is synonymous with horrible online and the awful comeback mechanic that is rage nowadays. Shame, they used to be my favorite third party during the 6th gen. Soul Calibur 2 (never played that competitively though) is my favorite fighting game alongside Brawl. In fact Smash could get better single player like that game had, Weapon Master mode is the peak
 
Add new/altered movesets for characters that just feel outdated now

We're talking Kirby, Ganondorf, DK, Samus, etc. Re-imagine them as if they were being added to the game for the first time today

Their old movesets can also stay, have them be separate, especially if the next game is just Ultimate Deluxe
 
RochHoch said:
Add new/altered movesets for characters that just feel outdated now

We're talking Kirby, Ganondorf, DK, Samus, etc. Re-imagine them as if they were being added to the game for the first time today

Their old movesets can also stay, have them be separate.
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If we're talking the simple-yet-appealing moveset designs of say Incineroar or Byleth, yes to that.

But hopefully not the overcomplicated messes of certain Smash 4-on characters like Villager or Min Min.

I'd like new movesets for certain 64/Melee characters too (with the old as separate options of course), but it has to be done right.
 
Quillion said:
If we're talking the simple-yet-appealing moveset designs of say Incineroar or Byleth, yes to that.

But hopefully not the overcomplicated messes of certain Smash 4-on characters like Villager or Min Min.

I'd like new movesets for certain 64/Melee characters too (with the old as separate options of course), but it has to be done right.
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Yeah, simpler ones was what I was thinking

Give Kirby a bunch of attacks pulled from different copy abilities for all his normals, and better specials (Nair could be sword, Hammer Bair, new Side B could be Cutter Boomerang, Jet for recovery, etc)

DK should throw barrels and shit, and not spin like a helicopter for some reason

Give Samus the Ice Beam, her melee attacks from SR/Dread

Stuff like that
 
RochHoch said:
Give Kirby a bunch of attacks pulled from different copy abilities for all his normals, and better specials (Nair could be sword, Hammer Bair, new Side B could be Cutter Boomerang, Jet for recovery, etc)
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IDK... while it wouldn't be mechanically complicated, that would probably run into the problem of visually cluttered moveset design. I liked how 64-Brawl mostly had simple melee attacks for normals while those "teleporting weapons" were reserved for specials. It's a problem I have with Mega Man.

RochHoch said:
DK should throw barrels and shit, and not spin like a helicopter for some reason
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Replacing his Up-B with Barrel Cannon could work. But giving DK a barrel toss, coconut gun, or any other projectile wouldn't fit his design.

RochHoch said:
Give Samus the Ice Beam, her melee attacks from SR/Dread
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Full (y) on that, though I hope ice will be reworked universally so that repeatedly hitting a target with ice will immobilize rather than it being kinda RNG-based and pretty useless anyway.
 
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Kirby's simplicity is part of the design. Only major moveset change (not balance change) I think is worth making for them is changing down tilt to a slide kick. Shocking it isn't already that tbh.

Yoshifan31 said:
If it doesn’t do “everyone is here” over again, it just won’t live up to most fans, casuals especially. That’s why I wouldn’t be surprised if they Mario Kart 8 it for the next Switch
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That's reasonable; though considering each Smash game is built directly off the previous one (Ultimate's internal name is literally Cross2; Cross being Smash for Wii U) i'm not sure there's much of a difference between a new game built from Ultimate and a "Ultimate Deluxe" in reality. They'll likely need to relicence all of the third-party content regardless, and that's the most difficult hurdle in continuing Everyone Is Here at this point.

Yoshifan31 said:
As for Namco well on top of making online play even worse than it was in Brawl (yes I say that unironically, I have hundred of hours on both), they have simply messed up the gameplay in multiple ways. From Smash 4 onwards they only made a few welcome, superficial changes that made 2014ers satisfied. Those are: no chaingrabs, reworking ledge grabs, no buffered powershield when airdodging to the ground (lag instead), and making the game less floaty. Other than that every other changes of theirs negatively impacts the game way more than tripping ever did. Rage is absolutely horrible. Shield is too strong, barely any push back when you hit it. Hitboxes and hurtboxes are messed up, they seem to follow too closely the outlines of the characters so now you have a lot of weird situations where your move whiffs due to z axis shenanigans. Priority system is out of wack, sometimes attacks will clash with projectiles that have no business clashing. Character designs are overall worse, a lot of them got unique aspects removed (ex. Wario tires, Snake dsmash, lots of previously autocancelling moves (lasers, Samus missiles) a lot of other moves etc). Therefore besides a few outliers every character has a very flowcharty and simple playstyle, you can just learn a character very quickly enough just in time to post a combo on Twitter. Essentially, all of those aspects make that having a good neutral game isn’t as rewarded, anything can happen due to jank and rage. This makes that the game is just not as fun to invest a lot of time into it anymore
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Bandai Namco will have to wake up to current netcode standards eventually (though in the case of Ultimate I wouldn't place the blame entirely on them, the Switch's lacking hardware capabilities and Nintendo's old online backend are equal culprits). As for the mechanical changes in Smash 4 and Ultimate, I feel like they majority of them would've happened under any studio as long as they were how Sakurai wanted the game to play. Introducing Rage as a comeback mechanic, getting rid of chain grabs, eliminating edgehogging by reworking ledges; those all seem in line with certain choices made for Brawl, simplifying or removing elements counter to casual play. There's definitely room to improve Ultimate mechanically but I don't think the entity of "Bandai Namco" have anything to do with the core changes you have an issue with, beyond implementing them into the game by request.
 
I’d be fine with a smaller but updated roster. Moveset updates, especially for the older characters, would be great. Let Ganondorf become a mage! Would also love Mario to incorporate Cappy into his moveset, or perhaps Kirby using the Drill ability.

Smaller roster could also make it easier to develop new modes. Boss Rush mode would be cool, I also like the Capture the Flag idea posted above. I was also thinking of a more roguelite take on WoL.

Also, alternate costumes! Would be way cooler than recolors.
 
I’m not really into revising movesets too much besides an altered move or two because if your favorite character gets all new moves they aren’t the same character you love to play as anymore, but Ganondorf has always been conceptually the easiest to imagine as besides the sword stuff they added in Ultimate you can slide his old kit onto Black Shadow (big, buff, evil Captain Falcon) and then just do whatever they want to do with him.
 
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I think it's gonna be tough to impossible to top Ultimate on the roster size front. They should revisit old characters and totally revamp their movesets to match the standards and accurate representation of modern ones. Give my boy Donkey Kong his roll jump and barrel throw
 
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Leave a new Smash for Switch 3. On Switch 2, create a new kind of Nintendo fighter and offer a slight graphics upgrade for Smash Ultimate.
 
I just want them to slim the roster down and make each character from scratch. Doesn't mean they all have to be new characters, just modernize the looks and movesets. Make Linkly fully based on BOTW/BOTW 2 stuff instead of just sprinkling that on top of the same basic skeleton since 64.

Oh and Paper Mario.
 
Erimgard said:
I just want them to slim the roster down and make each character from scratch. Doesn't mean they all have to be new characters, just modernize the looks and movesets. Make Linkly fully based on BOTW/BOTW 2 stuff instead of just sprinkling that on top of the same basic skeleton since 64.

Oh and Paper Mario.
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They wouldn't have to make them from scratch if they just recycle/touchup the models.

But if we want Link to be fully based on BotW, we'll need a Link that has the 64-Smash 4 moveset in addition to that, maybe as an echo. I already don't like how Link was changed for Ultimate, as much as I love BotW to death.
 
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Hot take: they should just keep porting / updating Ultimate with QoL additions and maybe new characters.
 
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Will be a hard follow up. I am wondering if they just iterate on ultimate or turn it into a service game
 
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I'm of the opinion that trying to recreate what Ultimate achieved, even trying to get that close with regards to roster and fanservice, would be a fools errand and would invite unfair comparisons. People need to realise now that Ultimate was a one time deal and we'll likely never see its like again.

I feel the best thing to do would be let Smash simmer for a bit, relying on Ultimate's evergreen sales, all the while accruing an all new updated roster of new heroes from new game releases, that can be utilised a few years down the line.

I know this will be controversial, but I'd be totally up for an 'All New' Smash which sees a drastically reduced pool of veterans alongside a massive influx of newcomers: a Smash that would be relevant to modern Nintendo, as it were. A roster of 50-60 characters with the proportion of newcomers being 40% - 50% new (or even rejigged vets) would be very exciting to me. And if Nintendo wait a little while for some new fan favs to emerge, I think people would roll with it.

If I had time, or everyone's patience, I could hypothesise what such a roster might look like, but alas, I have dinner plans.
 
Why is there this binary between a reboot with less characters and a GaaS expansion on existing Ultimate?

I think we can definitely have our cake and eat it too, no conpromises here. We can have more content, new movesets for vets and newcomers alike AND expanded core gameplay at the same time.
 
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