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Spoiler The Legend of Zelda series timeline and lore discussion thread, post-TotK (full series open spoilers)

In Skyward Sword, the Master Sword receives the ability to repel evil with Din's Flame. This is stated in two separate ways in the game. "Tempered by Din's Flame, this sword now holds a force capable of annihilating evil," and, "The sacred red flame has imbued your blade with a divine power that repels evil." Zelda's blessing just makes that part more powerful (consistent with what Zelda does as the Light Dragon in TotK, but in far less time.)

Although, Wind Waker establishes that the Master Sword's power to dispel evil is sustained by the sages. I guess pouring Sacred Power in directly from the source or over long periods of time circumvents that?

EDIT: Interestingly, Hyrule Historia calls the Goddess Flames instances of "the Force". This is also what Light Force is called in the original JP, with this definition "The sacred power the gods gave to the world. It's the breath of life itself."

EDIT 2: Skyward Sword describes what Zelda's blessing does as "the mythical power to drive back demons". I guess it's making a distinction between "evil" in general and "demons"?
 
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andipossess said:
In Skyward Sword, the Master Sword receives the ability to repel evil with Din's Flame. This is stated in two separate ways in the game. "Tempered by Din's Flame, this sword now holds a force capable of annihilating evil," and, "The sacred red flame has imbued your blade with a divine power that repels evil." Zelda's blessing just makes that part more powerful (consistent with what Zelda does as the Light Dragon in TotK, but in far less time.)

Although, Wind Waker establishes that the Master Sword's power to dispel evil is sustained by the sages. I guess pouring Sacred Power in directly from the source or over long periods of time circumvents that?
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I think that Din's flame is literally investing it with power. Zelda's blessing gives you this dialogue:
The goddess has blessed your blade, and
the Master Sword has at last achieved its
ultimate form!

The sword is now imbued with the mythical
power to drive back demons, and only
(Link) may wield it!
Click to expand...

The implication here is that the master sword's anti-demon properties only come into play here, so Din's flames must bequeath a more general force on it

Also! Also. This is a very specific aside that avoids addressing my idea!!!
 
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Oh no, I believe that Sonia is not part of Hylia's bloodline for whatever reason. Either she predates Hylia incarnating as human, or the royal bloodline just married into it incidentally at some point later. Or Skyward Sword as told isn't canon, I guess, but I'm not fond of that idea.
 
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Skyward Sword is pretty implicit about the civilization that existed before lived alongside Hylia. So the timeline of events is:

Creation -> Creation of Hylia and people -> society underneath Hylia -> Demise shows up -> Hylia-Demise War -> no humans on the surface -> Skyward Sword.

Hylia is supposed to be the originator of humans, and all humans are directly descended from the original Hylians. Placing a TotK before this feels wrong simply due to how important Hylia is, just like placing Ganondorf before Demise feels wrong. Plus the west side of Hyrule was once a vast ocean with lush green lands, we don't have 100% confirmation that it does become Gerudo Desert, but given it's in the west and becomes a desert, it makes sense to assume Skyward Swords Lanayru region becomes Gerudo Desert, and this desertification happens during Hylia's time. Thus we'd have to assume Gerudo Desert started as a desert then became an ocean and then became a Desert again.

Also: "Zelda," "Hylia," "Sonia," they're all five letters, all of them end in the letter a, it feels pretty on the nose.
 
On the topic of sage powers....

Sage-hood throughout the series is primarily inherited. Most of the common threads in the games show that newly-awakened sages are descendants of previous sages. An exception is the OoT sages who were all awakened independently of the Sages portrayed in TP who... probably weren't the races of the OoT sages.

TotK treats sage powers as inherited. The four buds are implied to be descendants of original sages, and Zelda is implied to inherit her time and light powers from Sonia and Rauru.

Things get a little weird with Mineru, though. She's Rauru's sister but has Spirit powers instead. Why Spirit and not Light? We don't have information about their parents or ancestors or other zonai in general, so we don't know how sage powers awaken within the zonai.

This gets me thinking that maybe there's some misdirection happening here. Maybe Zelda is not actually directly descended from Sonia and Rauru but instead someone related to Sonia. Rauru, who couldn't know his own future, would not be able to confirm or deny if his Hyrule Royal Family and Zelda's Hyrule Royal Family were actually directly connected. Zelda notes, "It is said that my ancestors—the first of Hyrule's royal family were born from a union with gods who had descended from the heavens. These murals tell a similar story, [...]" But she's just interpreting the murals here. It's entirely possible that she's conflating the Skyward Sword origin with the Zonai origin because of its similarities.

Something else that's itching something fierce is that Ganondorf calls Sonia "a Hyrulean woman" (this isn't a translation error, jp had something like "a daughter of the Hyrulean people"). Now, Skyward Sword makes no mention of the term Hyrule, but I guess this suggests Rauru's kingdom was named after Hyrule rather than the other way around, which opens the possibility of other Kingdoms of Hyrule that Rauru just wasn't aware of at the time.
 
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Mango said:
Hylia is supposed to be the originator of humans
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I've never heard this one! I don't know the origins of any of the peoples of Hyrule, off the top of my head, except for the Wind Waker version of the Rito. Do you remember where this is mentioned?
 
Something else that's a little odd. The Gerudo in the flashbacks all have pointed ears. Ganondorf doesn't. Even Koume and Kotake who have unique clothing still have the pointed ears, whereas traditionally Gerudo all have round ears like Ganondorf.

Notably, Ganondorf appears to have received pointed ears in OoT after obtaining the Triforce of Power. He still has those pointed ears in Wind Waker. Nabooru's stained glass painting in the same game gives her round ears. Ganondorf also inexplicably has pointed ears in Twilight Princess, but then the game reveals he already had the Triforce of Power anyway.

Trouble is we don't have very many points of data for round ear Gerudo. Creating a Champion, iirc, implies that the Gerudo started having pointed ears due to guilt of being associated with Calamity Ganon, but that's all the explanation we have for why BotW Gerudo have pointed ears.
 
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Jimmy Joe said:
I've never heard this one! I don't know the origins of any of the peoples of Hyrule, off the top of my head, except for the Wind Waker version of the Rito. Do you remember where this is mentioned?
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I don't know if it's directly stated but I mean the pretty obvious parallels to Jesus and Amaterasu kinda imply it heavily. Plus the people are called "humans" in Skyward Sword, and IIRC the term "Hylian" never appears, ergo it's obvious to assume the term "Hylian" and also "Hyrule" we're derived from "Hylia." In that

'the land heavily dominated and ruled by the descendants of Hylia, the Hylians, came to be known as Hyrule.'

Placing anything before Hylia feels wrong, especially a "Hyrule."

Hell, I seem to remember the game stating that Hylia was assigned her position by the Golden Goddesses, whom presumably created her directly, and given we see what can be assumed to be leftovers of the Golden Trios physical form, the Sacred Flames, it would make sense to place Skyward Sword and its backstory timeline fairly close to the creation of the world. Thus making placing a extra Hyrule behind all that all the harder for me personally to consider possible.
 
The backstory of TOTK could be also placed before Skyward Sword:
  • Master Sword doesn't exist yet
  • There is a "Kingdom" saved from Demise in the backstory of Skyward Sword
  • Can explain the "old civilization" in SS
BUT

- how the king of hyrule knows about Ganondorf sealed, then?
 
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Since Skyward Sword also has a "past", which occurs just after Skyloft has been raised, it's also possible that Rauru's Kingdom occurs during the thousands of years after Demise has been slain by time-traveling Link but before Hylia-Zelda has been reborn on Skyloft. It would explain Hylia's absence, and also why nobody knows about the Master Sword yet. Although that would be a funny place to put it, cause it would mean three Master Swords in existence at the same time. One in Goddess Sword form, waiting for Link to draw it the first time, one in the Sealed Temple, waiting to meet Link again in the future, and then the one with the Light Dragon, waiting for a different Link to draw it again even further into the future.
 
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Don't forget this event:
zelda.fandom.com

Hyrulean Civil War

The Hyrulean Civil War refers to the war that occurred prior to the events of Ocarina of Time. Little is known about this conflict, apart from the fact that it lasted for a very long time. The war was first referenced by the Deku Tree Sprout to explain Link's origins after he lifted the curse on...
zelda.fandom.com zelda.fandom.com
 
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Mango said:
I don't know if it's directly stated but I mean the pretty obvious parallels to Jesus and Amaterasu kinda imply it heavily. Plus the people are called "humans" in Skyward Sword, and IIRC the term "Hylian" never appears, ergo it's obvious to assume the term "Hylian" and also "Hyrule" we're derived from "Hylia." In that

'the land heavily dominated and ruled by the descendants of Hylia, the Hylians, came to be known as Hyrule.'

Placing anything before Hylia feels wrong, especially a "Hyrule."

Hell, I seem to remember the game stating that Hylia was assigned her position by the Golden Goddesses, whom presumably created her directly, and given we see what can be assumed to be leftovers of the Golden Trios physical form, the Sacred Flames, it would make sense to place Skyward Sword and its backstory timeline fairly close to the creation of the world. Thus making placing a extra Hyrule behind all that all the harder for me personally to consider possible.
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You'll have to forgive me if I get any of this wrong, it's been a couple of years since I looked at the text of Skyward Sword very deeply

Setting aside the origin of humanity, I don't think putting a "Hyrule" before Skyward Swor'ds backstory implies that it was before Hylia. Sonia is a priestess of Hylia, and is part of a line of priestesses going back an untold amount of time. Hylia is venerated by the Zonai, given her placement in the Temple of Time, just like they venerate the Bargainers who reside over life and death

The advent of Hylia's authority over the Triforce is never named, I don't think; she has authority over it and the flames of the old gods (who are very specifically never gendered in Skyward Sword, including in Hylia's own words relayed by Fi) but it's never said that the old gods gave that authority to her, and her origin is never stated

Since Skyward Sword was (up to now, possibly) the earliest game in the timeline, it's easy to think of it as being near the beginning of the world, but I don't think that's true even in the text of that game. Fi mentions in her description of Demise that he's been known by many names and taken many shapes throughout the ages, which to me means he might not be the first incarnation of the Demon King

To me none of this has a problem fitting with Skyward Sword because Skyward Sword itself was already flirting with an ancient past that stretched out basically forever. There's always a before, always an older story that we're not privy to, according to that game. I think it's fine for that to be the case, just like it was fine for Skyward Sword to retcon the creation of the Master Sword
 
Uhmmm, I'm okay with a pre-SS game in theory, but I don't think TotK past fits well there. Between Kotake & Koume, the Death Mountain, the Zonai 100% fitting the description of the "Sky Folk" from Twilight Princess and some minor allusion to Minish Cap (major crisis without Triforce / Master Sword, stained glasses), I think the developer team intended to show the early days of post-SS Hyrule.

Whether or not it worked is an open question (for me: mostly yes, maybe some details should have been fleshed out more).
 
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So I'm working on the Side Adventure now where you find the tablets written in ancient Hyrulian text to translate, and it REALLY seems to imply to me that the Zelda of this game is the only one in Hyrule's history.

Also, I'm glad it gives an explanation for how the landmarks in the sky ended up there, when they're on the ground in the flashbacks (Mineru and Zelda work together to send the Temple of Time and the rest of the islands into the sky).
 
I will never not have the head canon that Groose is the ancestor of the entirety of the Gerudo on the sole basis that it’s funny.
 
Trying to place a game with a Hyrule before Skyward Sword is silly. I'm sorry. We might as well go hog wild and place everything before Skyward Sword, why not?

Everything about Skyward Sword is designed for it to be the beginning of the timeline, small contradictions in the past like the vague origin of the Master Sword being updated are not on the same level as contradicting an entire games premise.

Not only that tho, as it horribly cheapens the importance of Demise and Hylia, as it's the same problem of TotKdorf being before OOTdorf, but now times like 30. It also feels silly compared to TotKs plot, as why introduce a character that is "the first King" if the Kingdom that's being referred to isn't the one Zelda is from? Why would Zelda recognize the names of "Rauru" and "Sonia" if they aren't part of the same Hyrule she's from? It's just narratively messy, and it helps in no regards to trying to understand TotKs backstory.

Also we've no reason to assume there's no Master Sword in the past. Zelda never mentions it to Rauru, and it appears in the past after Rauru had sealed himself, yet we see Rauru mention the sword by name. It's clear he has some passing knowledge on it, and it not appearing does not automatically mean it doesn't exist in the past.
 
Skyward Sword itself introduced an issue where Link kills Demise and seals him in the Master Sword thousands of years before the Goddess Sword even becomes the Master Sword. If Demise was dead/sealed inside the Master Sword in the past, then what was Hylia's seal at the bottom of the spiral sealing? Skyward Sword doesn't appear to tell the story of a stable time loop, but the game treats it as though Link saved the day in his regular future with no other apparent changes caused by defeating Demise in the past. Skyward Sword is pretty inconsistent about how it treats time travel in general, though. You can see Zelda sealed in crystal from the start of the game keeping the outside seal on Demise alive, but wait Demise is already dead so what's Zelda doing in the crystal—oh no i've gone cross-eyed.
 
Mango said:
Trying to place a game with a Hyrule before Skyward Sword is silly. I'm sorry. We might as well go hog wild and place everything before Skyward Sword, why not?

Everything about Skyward Sword is designed for it to be the beginning of the timeline, small contradictions in the past like the vague origin of the Master Sword being updated are not on the same level as contradicting an entire games premise.

Not only that tho, as it horribly cheapens the importance of Demise and Hylia, as it's the same problem of TotKdorf being before OOTdorf, but now times like 30. It also feels silly compared to TotKs plot, as why introduce a character that is "the first King" if the Kingdom that's being referred to isn't the one Zelda is from? Why would Zelda recognize the names of "Rauru" and "Sonia" if they aren't part of the same Hyrule she's from? It's just narratively messy, and it helps in no regards to trying to understand TotKs backstory.

Also we've no reason to assume there's no Master Sword in the past. Zelda never mentions it to Rauru, and it appears in the past after Rauru had sealed himself, yet we see Rauru mention the sword by name. It's clear he has some passing knowledge on it, and it not appearing does not automatically mean it doesn't exist in the past.
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These are fair reactions to have to TOTK potentially placing part of its story before Skyward Sword's backstory, because it does undercut the supremacy of Demise (not so much Hylia; she still exists outside of time and is the primary reason we understand events being able to happen the way they do, and also she's literally worshipped by the Zonai)

But I want you to keep in mind that this was the exact same reaction older timeline theorists had to Skyward Sword itself, for undermining the self-determination and personhood of Ganon, who had been the primary antagonist since 1986. Putting him back into a place of primacy isn't really such a big upheaval, in that context

I think it's easy to assume, given that Rauru and Sonia both have Zelda tell them all about Link and how Zelda describes to Mineru that even the smallest shard of the Master Sword was able to wound Ganondorf, that Zelda also told them about the Master Sword. The reason people assume that there was no Master Sword in the past is that nobody thought to go get it to fight Ganondorf, which would have been the most natural thing to do in that era. The circumstances in tandem are enough to make one think that this predates both the Master Sword and the spirit of the Hero who fights the forces of evil

I love Skyward Sword. I want to put that on the table. Love it to pieces and have a lot of fun using it as a way to work out certain things about the timeline for the past twelve years. But it's OK for parts of it to be removed from primacy! Zelda games always do that. They love to do it, and have been doing it since at least 1998! It's just part of the process
 
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@Jimmy Joe

Placing TotK Ganondorf before Demise isn't "putting Ganondorf back into a place primacy" it's putting TotK Ganondorf specifically into a extremely high undeserved place of primacy and only taking away from Denise and further removing OG Ganondorf's place of primacy. It the same problem people had with Demise, tho now not just effecting Ganondorf but Demise as well.

Afterall TotK Ganondorf is not the Ganondorf we've all come to love. His place before OG Ganondorf is already bad enough, he doesn't need to upstage Demise as well.

Also no one got the Master Sword because:

A) it was already proven worthless against Ganondorf in the present, and thus needed the time it was in Zelda's head.

B) no one is around to wield anyways.

C) if we take TotK at face value and say it really is the founding of Hyrule on the traditional timeline, the Master Sword had only just recently been turned into a key locking off the Sacred Realm.


That said if people really want to try and find some way to place it before Skyward Sword, be my guest, but I will continue to find the placement extremely hard to grasp.
 
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Due to the tenuous placement of Zelda 1 in the timeline in relation to OoT, I'm sure you can find an argument that TotK Ganondorf is OG Ganon, that OG Ganon is TotK's malice made flesh and not OoT Ganon's.
 
The depiction of the Calamity in the mural looks an awful lot like a dragon; it makes me wonder if the Dark Skeletons might be past calamities, lost to the mists of time or made equivalent to the latest Calamity like the old gods were coloured by worship of Hylia
 
Jimmy Joe said:
The depiction of the Calamity in the mural looks an awful lot like a dragon; it makes me wonder if the Dark Skeletons might be past calamities, lost to the mists of time or made equivalent to the latest Calamity like the old gods were coloured by worship of Hylia
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When Ganondorf underwent draconification, my first thought was "this looks like Calamity Ganon" (when it's swirling around the castle, not the version you fight, which IMO has a less interesting design). Maybe Calamity Ganon is kinda like a distorted version of the Demon Dragon that has echoed back through time?
 
Jimmy Joe said:
Now that I've gotten all that out of my system, there's two things I want to talk about:

1. Hylia's blood and the timeline of TOTK's past.

I do think it's significant that, although Sonia comes from the same bloodline as Zelda and is a priestess of Hylia, she doesn't possess Zelda's power over "light," or the power to banish evil. The reason I'm calling Hylia's power "light" and "the power to banish evil" instead of power over time is that that's how it's described in other games where Zelda has a power inherent to herself: Zelda's blessing in Skyward Sword is what makes the Master Sword capable of destroying evil, Zelda's body in Spirit Tracks has the power to destroy the demon king, the Light Force in Minish Cap, etc.

What I'm thinking is that even if Zelda and Sonia are related by blood, Sonia hasn't inherited the power of the blood of the goddess. This suggests to me that Sonia's time is set before the advent of the goddess in a human body, which would mean that the founding of Hyrule takes place before Zelda is born in Skyward Sword. Which, unless there is a contingent of humans living on the surface instead of in Skyloft, means that the war with Ganondorf might take place before the war with Demise?

Just something I'm mulling over.

2. What the Hell is with the Dark Skeletons?

The dark skeletons beneath the leviathans are not, themselves, levithans. They're kilometer-long monstrosities with saurian skulls, and have proportions roughly equivalent to the Demon Dragon that Ganondorf turns into.

So, uh, what the Hell are they? Are they demons who fought alongside Ganondorf in the Imprisoning War? Are they older than that? There are three of them—are they previous incarnations of the Naydra, Dinraal, and Farosh? Could they, themselves, be three previous Demon Kings? Are they fallen zonai? Are we looking at evidence of three previous entire cycles of a conflict like this one, where a Demon King—maybe even Ganon—rose, caused havoc, and was slain?

What does that mean for what the Depths are? Are the Depths themselves a repository for the detritus of conflicts in Hyrule, or even timelines once they begin to merge?
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Presumably Zelda has the light and time power is because she is a descendant of both Sonia and Rauru. Not necessarily because of Hylia’s blood.
 
Jimmy Joe said:
The circumstances in tandem are enough to make one think that this predates both the Master Sword and the spirit of the Hero who fights the forces of evil
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While the absence of a Link is strange, I would like to point out that it's happened before - very explicitly in the backstory of The Wind Waker, and possibly in the original Imprisoning War (though likely just due to the defeat of the Hero of Time). The difference in reaction among the people is stark, though; TWW backstory people believe the Hero will appear, while TotK backstory people are seemingly unaware of the concept.

I'm in the camp that struggles to put anything before Skyward Sword - especially when current Hyrule has some knowledge of Rauru being their first king. I feel current Hyrule knowing that requires jumping through too many hoops if it's not actually the same kingdom.
 
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In the original ALttP manual written by Yoshiaki Koizumi, it said the Master Sword existed during the Imprisoning War but the sages/King didn't know where it was and couldn't find a person with the Hero qualities to wield it. This game's version is faithful to that, and even in Ocarina of Time nobody mentions the Master Sword before Link and Navi find it, and even then the only ones who do are Navi, Sheik, and Rauru. All this is to say I don't think this game's version of the Imprisoning War can be assumed to take place in a pre-Master Sword time just because it wasn't used.
 
This is sorta a headcanon, I shared on Zelda Universe Forums, but the Zonaite Armor and the Ancient Hero Aspect are like identical when you look at them. Same everything, including the same wrappings in the same place. I think they both belonged to the ancient hero, and the ancient Hero was somehow transformed into a Zonai. The tapestry depicts him as a Hylian, with a very obvious Hylian face and nose, so to have people recognize the aspect as him is weird to me.

Plus we've seen that Rauru at least, possibly other Zonai as well but we don't know, have the power to fuse elements of their bodies to other people even in ghost form, so perhaps the Ancient Hero had to have their whole body replaced, which would explain why they're so weird looking.
 
I assume both the Triforce and the Master Sword exist somewhere in TotK past, but either the Sheikahs (who suspiciously do not appear...) are keeping them hidden in the shadows, or their knowledge was lost.

LegendHero said:
In the original ALttP manual written by Yoshiaki Koizumi, it said the Master Sword existed during the Imprisoning War but the sages/King didn't know where it was and couldn't find a person with the Hero qualities to wield it. This game's version is faithful to that, and even in Ocarina of Time nobody mentions the Master Sword before Link and Navi find it, and even then the only ones who do are Navi, Sheik, and Rauru. All this is to say I don't think this game's version of the Imprisoning War can be assumed to take place in a pre-Master Sword time just because it wasn't used.
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It's possible that, by the time of ALTTP, in-universe some details of the post-OoT Imprisoning War and of TotK Imprisoning War got conflated.
 
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I just noticed that when Rauru blasts those Molduga in that memory, not only is Zelda channeling way more energy to Rauru than Sonia, but a couple seconds before Rauru blasts the Molduga, it looks either like a single large, golden triangle is in front of him, or the triforce is in front of him.
 
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I think Sonia is a carrier of the blood of Hyrule but just hasn't manifested at levels compared to others. I don't think every queen needs to have this great power manifest, honestly.
 
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I don't think they'd constantly reference Fi and continually canonize Skyward Sword if Sonia didn't have a direct relation to Hylia. Not only that but the names, "Zelda," "Sonia," "Hylia," are all pretty remarkably similar, and "Sonia" itself is derived from the Greek name Sophia which in Greece meant "Wisdom."
 
My boring and honest interpretation is that the developers care about a few significant continuity details (The Master Sword is Fi for example) and that the other games did happen, but the exact nature of how it all fits together is deliberately vague and open to interpretation as not to limit the story they want to tell for this particular game.
 
Also hey Remember this guy? He’s probably not canon but this still goes pretty hard.

 
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We know Sonia is a priestess of Hylia and comes from a line of priestesses, and there's probably significance to the fact that her skin tone and hair colour are very reminiscent of Skyward Sword-era Sheikah, particularly Impa from that game

Similarly, though, Zelda gives off more power than Sonia and Rauru combined when it's time to blast the moldugas, and Sonia mentions that she has blood ties with Zelda but not that Rauru does—nor does she suggest that Zelda's power to vanquish evil is similar to Rauru's, just that it's something she has in addition to her affinity for mastery over time

We could attribute that to her holding the Triforce, but I'm not sure she actually does after the ending of BOTW, because in that ending she mentions she can no longer hear the voice of the sword and is losing her connection to the spirit world

It's not necessarily the simplest answer, but I do think "Sonia predates the introduction of the blood of Hylia into the priestesses" fits these circumstances pretty well
 
Jimmy Joe said:
We could attribute that to her holding the Triforce, but I'm not sure she actually does after the ending of BOTW, because in that ending she mentions she can no longer hear the voice of the sword and is losing her connection to the spirit world
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She does seem to regain the ability to talk to the Master Sword when she pulls it from the time portal and it confirms to her that Link is alive. She even seems to gain some form of identity or information from the sword, as afterwards she refers to the sword with feminine pronouns instead of objective ones.
 
WestEgg said:
She does seem to regain the ability to talk to the Master Sword when she pulls it from the time portal and it confirms to her that Link is alive. She even seems to gain some form of identity or information from the sword, as afterwards she refers to the sword with feminine pronouns instead of objective ones.
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That's true! She's definitely gaining some deeper understanding of all of her powers (and her self) in this game

But then the question presents itself: why did she lose that connection in the end of BOTW?
 
Jimmy Joe said:
That's true! She's definitely gaining some deeper understanding of all of her powers (and her self) in this game

But then the question presents itself: why did she lose that connection in the end of BOTW?
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It could be the secret stone enhancing her powers back to where they were at the end of Breath of the Wild (The Secret Stones and their vague super powerfulness still kind of annoys me to be honest, like Zelda potentially had at least some of the Triforce's power at that point). Or maybe she just is more intune with her abilities like you said, as its mentioned she must have natural light and time affinity for the secret stone to work.
 
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WestEgg said:
My boring and honest interpretation is that the developers care about a few significant continuity details (The Master Sword is Fi for example) and that the other games did happen, but the exact nature of how it all fits together is deliberately vague and open to interpretation as not to limit the story they want to tell for this particular game.
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Yeah I mean that's obviously the real answer, even if it's a little boring lol
 
Mango said:
This is sorta a headcanon, I shared on Zelda Universe Forums, but the Zonaite Armor and the Ancient Hero Aspect are like identical when you look at them. Same everything, including the same wrappings in the same place. I think they both belonged to the ancient hero, and the ancient Hero was somehow transformed into a Zonai. The tapestry depicts him as a Hylian, with a very obvious Hylian face and nose, so to have people recognize the aspect as him is weird to me.

Plus we've seen that Rauru at least, possibly other Zonai as well but we don't know, have the power to fuse elements of their bodies to other people even in ghost form, so perhaps the Ancient Hero had to have their whole body replaced, which would explain why they're so weird looking.
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I like this because the Ancient Hero's Aspect is such a bonkers thing to randomly add as a reward for the shrines. it honestly make it seem like a breadcrumb trail for a game they have ideas for down the line, or maybe thats just wishful thinking.

The fuse ability being used for DBZ style fusion shenanigans (a Zora Link that's actually Link and the Zora Princess fused together? hmm? hmmmm?) is the exact type of wackiness I want from the Legend of Zelda.
 
Jimmy Joe said:
That's true! She's definitely gaining some deeper understanding of all of her powers (and her self) in this game

But then the question presents itself: why did she lose that connection in the end of BOTW?
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I don't think she ever lost the ability to hear Fi. It's more like the Sword gets into a state of slumber when it isn't needed. So naturally she couldn't hear it in the Ending. Because it just wasn't needed and so it didn't call out.
 
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This video makes some pretty good points in support of the past of TotK being late in the overall timeline



I had already pointed out the inconsistencies with the Rito, but the points regarding how the Gerudo have changed since Ocarina in terms of developing pointed ears and green eyes (and especially how Ganondorf has NOT, still maintaining the Ocarina era traits). The geography argument is also fairly strong, given how important of a landmark the Great Plateau specifically should be if it was truly the site of Hyrule’s founding, despite never appearing until BotW.

I do think the medallion argument is a little weak,, as Ocarina sages are more divine based whereas the TotK Sages seem more based around whatever magic the Zonai have, so they don’t need to correlate. The Molduga argument is also notable, but somewhat tenuous as it is easy to just say they aren’t around in the other games.
 
The Gerudo ears are just a retcon imo. I don't think it's strong enough of an argument to supercede a pre-OOT placement. The idea that Ganondorf would somehow retain those traits is also super flimsy. We know reincarnation, assuming it even exist in Zelda, tends to be specific, but can we really say it's so specific so as to insure Ganondorf III would absolutely have round ears and yellow eyes? Honestly imo no. Also the geography argument swings in the opposite direction. The decision to create a plateau that functions as Hyrules birthplace was made with Skyward Sword in mind, and the rough placement of the Great Plateau and its relative location to The Spring of Courage (Skyview Spring) and Lake Floria, alongside the inclusion of a Temple of Time on said plateau more or less 100% confirms that, at least in BOTW, they were referring to the birthplace of Hyrule proper, not a second Hyrule or a Hyrule 2. The inclusion of architecture from Skyward Sword is in fact the biggest indicator that they intended it to be the same Hyrule from the past games.

That said I fail to see the appeal of a refounding or a split timeline or a reboot. None of those add anything to the lore, all the they do is sequester BOTW/ToTK even further away from the rest of the series, and severely limit any potential of lore theorizing or connecting. A pre-OOT placement, issues and all, provides so much more from a lore standpoint and actually builds more onto the timeline. It's in fact the only placement that does that.
 
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Just IMO but I feel the BotW/TotK timeline makes a lot more sense if Nintendo revised the "fallen hero" split to occur during or directly after Skyward Sword instead of the weird "what if Link lost?" explanation.

"Hero of Time" timeline- OoT, Child/Adult split, directly related games

"Zonai Founding" timeline- Zonai establish Hyrule rather than Link and Zelda, TotK Dorf is sealed, "Calamity Ganon" reappears continuously in 2D games and BotW before destruction in TotK

So from this perspective, TotK finally actually depicts the Imprisoning War correctly, where OoT was initially supposed to be that but was continuously revised further from that concept.
 
Branduil said:
Just IMO but I feel the BotW/TotK timeline makes a lot more sense if Nintendo revised the "fallen hero" split to occur during or directly after Skyward Sword instead of the weird "what if Link lost?" explanation.

"Hero of Time" timeline- OoT, Child/Adult split, directly related games

"Zonai Founding" timeline- Zonai establish Hyrule rather than Link and Zelda, TotK Dorf is sealed, "Calamity Ganon" reappears continuously in 2D games and BotW before destruction in TotK

So from this perspective, TotK finally actually depicts the Imprisoning War correctly, where OoT was initially supposed to be that but was continuously revised further from that concept.
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As a diehard Decline Timeline stan, I would actually accept this.
 
chocolate_supra said:
As a diehard Decline Timeline stan, I would actually accept this.
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Branduil said:
Just IMO but I feel the BotW/TotK timeline makes a lot more sense if Nintendo revised the "fallen hero" split to occur during or directly after Skyward Sword instead of the weird "what if Link lost?" explanation.

"Hero of Time" timeline- OoT, Child/Adult split, directly related games

"Zonai Founding" timeline- Zonai establish Hyrule rather than Link and Zelda, TotK Dorf is sealed, "Calamity Ganon" reappears continuously in 2D games and BotW before destruction in TotK

So from this perspective, TotK finally actually depicts the Imprisoning War correctly, where OoT was initially supposed to be that but was continuously revised further from that concept.
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Yeah but triforce
 
Onilink said:
Yeah but triforce
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oh yeah

that was one of the bigger reasons I believed BotW = Decline Timeline for years.

um... Well I guess if Ocarina didn't happen in the same way in the revised timeline, especially with the Imprisoning War being fought over the stones instead of the Triforce, then the Triforce would hever have split into three and Zelda would still have the full Triforce in BotW. So that'd still kinda work!

But then that retcons the hell outta LttP, which.. ugh, yeah it doesn't really work after all. 😑
 
chocolate_supra said:
oh yeah

that was one of the bigger reasons I believed BotW = Decline Timeline for years.

um... Well I guess if Ocarina didn't happen in the same way in the revised timeline, especially with the Imprisoning War being fought over the stones instead of the Triforce, then the Triforce would hever have split into three and Zelda would still have the full Triforce in BotW. So that'd still kinda work!

But then that retcons the hell outta LttP, which.. ugh, yeah it doesn't really work after all. 😑
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I don't think TotK necessarily contradicts this. My theory is that the stones give access to the Triforce's power, and when Ganondorf steals Sonia's stone, he uses that access to steal the entire Triforce. Hence his absurd power-up compared to the other sages.

After being sealed, Ganondorf uses the Triforce to corrupt the Sacred Realm, and the events of LttP occur. That game ends with the Triforce returned to the royal family, hence Zelda having it in BotW.
 
――毎回恒例でお聞きしていますが、『ゼルダの伝説』の時系列として、今回の『ティアーズオブ ザ キングダム』は、どこに当てはまりますか？　『ゼルダの伝説　スカイウォードソード』では始祖を描き、『ブレス オブ ザ ワイルド』で最後を描いていましたが、『ティアーズオブ ザ キングダム』は『ブレス オブ ザ ワイルド』の続編でありつつ、ハイラル建国の話もあるので始祖にもなりえるのかと…………。

藤林『ブレス オブ ザ ワイルド』の後の話であることは間違いないです。そして、基本的に『ゼルダの伝説』シリーズは、破綻しないように物語と世界を考えています。現時点で言えるのは、その2点のみです。

　「破綻しない」という前提があれば、ファンの方々にも「ということは、それじゃあこういう可能性も？」といろいろ考えていただける余地があると思うんですよ。あくまで可能性として話すとすれば、ハイラル建国の話があってもその前に一度滅んだ歴史がある可能性もあります。「ここをこうしたらおもしろいんじゃない？」といった適当では作っていませんから、あえて語られていない部分も含めて、想像して楽しんでいただければと思います。

From the famitsu interview regarding the timeline placement.
 
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^Basically 'we don't want to confirm anything about the memories and where/how they're placed, so even tho it's the founding of Hyrule, it could possibly be a second Hyrule or maybe not. The memories have no placement just enjoy your own placements and move on.'
 
Starphanluke said:
So I'm working on the Side Adventure now where you find the tablets written in ancient Hyrulian text to translate, and it REALLY seems to imply to me that the Zelda of this game is the only one in Hyrule's history.

Also, I'm glad it gives an explanation for how the landmarks in the sky ended up there, when they're on the ground in the flashbacks (Mineru and Zelda work together to send the Temple of Time and the rest of the islands into the sky).
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Eh, I think botw just takes so far into the future that it would seem this way. But why do you think it's implying it
 
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