-
Hey everyone, staff have documented a list of banned content and subject matter that we feel are not consistent with site values, and don't make sense to host discussion of on Famiboards. This list (and the relevant reasoning per item) is viewable here.
Spoiler The Legend of Zelda series timeline and lore discussion thread, post-TotK (full series open spoilers)
- Thread starter WestEgg
- Start date
Tye
All-around Nintendo enjoyer
- Pronouns
- they/them
I’d argue it’s actually a very important distinction, and I believe it also makes far more sense than the alternative. I mean, the 10,000+ (possibly more like 20,000+ or more now, we really have no idea) year history of BotW/TotK is already ridiculous enough on its own, but it’s incredibly more so when you try to stick it at the end of the existing timeline, one where the events of each game only span a few hundred years between each other at most. Plus it’s just unsatisfying all around, because rather than the explanation being a timeline split from the early history of Hyrule (or rather, the land that would become known as Hyrule), the explanation is essentially…“it doesn’t matter because so much time has passed that ANYTHING could have happened!” If you’re gonna make established history not matter at all, the better way to do that is by making it an alternate timeline, as they’ve previously done in the Zelda series. And I believe TotK is much more likely implying that being the case, in a number of ways, rather than the alternative.
OP
OP
- Pronouns
- he/him
Breath of the Wild already references Skyward Sword, Ocarina of Time, and Twilight Princess in a voiced cutscene, and makes further references to Ocarina in the Zora tablets and with Urbosa’s dialogue. The events of those games are firmly in the backstory of Breath of the Wild, even before you take into account that Tears of the Kingdom introduced the previously amiibo locked items directly into the base world with a lot of prominent framing. Heck, characters directly reference these items in written dialogue. It can’t be written off that BotW/TotK are directly in continuity with the earlier games.
Tye
All-around Nintendo enjoyer
- Pronouns
- they/them
That voiced cutscene vaguely references what brings to mind SS, OoT, and TP, in addition to ALttP and TWW in that same speech, which shouldn’t be possible if it’s truly the actual, exact events of those games that are being referenced. Also, as I’ve pointed out multiple times in this thread already that everyone seems to conveniently be ignoring, the event that both BotW and CaC originally led us to believe was supposed to be OoT with Ruto and Nabooru facing off against Ganondorf, who was explicitly said to be the original source of Calamity Ganon, was actually not OoT as we know it at all, because TotK shows us that the source of Calamity Ganon is instead a different Ganondorf during a different Imprisoning War—meaning the sages we thought were OoT Ruto and OoT Nabooru must be different characters entirely as well, with the obvious implication being that the Zora and Gerudo sages of TotK’s Imprisoning War are named Ruto and Nabooru, which also explains why the Divine Beasts are named and modeled after them. So, no, the current canon is clearly that it’s not OoT that was being referenced, which was previously the only game aside from SS that seemed to be explicitly referenced in a tangible way.
Put that all together, and BotW/TotK would need to exist in some sort of world where (some of) SS happened, but OoT as we know it did not, which can only really be an alternate timeline, likely splitting from SS. And if we’re to assume things like Zelda’s speech from BotW vaguely referencing SS, OoT, TP, ALttP, and TWW, and other references of arguable canon importance like minor location names and previous DLC/amiibo items referencing games across all three timelines as well are indeed supposed to be canon despite being contradictory, the simple explanation is that events similar to these games happened in the new, unexplored timeline’s history (and I believe that’s exactly what TotK strongly implies with its obvious OoT parallels), which is really the only way to make it make sense without impossible nonsense like a Dragon Break inexplicably merging timelines on an enormous scale, or the same idea (that similar events to games played out on another timeline than the ones we know them to take place on) but more convoluted, with essentially the same thing happening but instead of branching off SS it happens far into the future on one of the existing timelines, which just raises more questions all around.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I'm no timeline theorist (I know how it all pieces together and I've seen theories and stuff but I don't personally join in the conversation much for Reasons) but the only way I can see BotW and TotK making any sense in the greater span of the Zelda canon is for the timeline to have been lineated at some point. I personally don't feel as though Nintendo considers the timeline to be an important part of their development process and I think they've shown they are more than willing to move things around and shift it when needed. BotW and TotK only cement that, I feel, with very liberal use of references to past games that amount to little substance. With that in mind...
I think that BotW takes place after such a long time that the events of all other Zelda games have conceivably happened in some point of history, but the Kingdom of Hyrule has risen and fallen from ash so many times that the lines between what is factual and what is fiction is blurred in-universe, and some aspects could even be a misunderstood history. We, as players, see these games and play them and know their stories to be complete, but the actual when of these games can be absolutely loose. I don't see any reason why the vast majority of Zelda games (aside from the obvious direct sequels like OoT -> MM) couldn't have taken place hundreds of thousands of years after each other, with the definition of what is "Hyrule" changing each and every time as the kingdom rebuilds itself and is subsequently destroyed eventually. We've even seen Hyrule be re-established in Spirit Tracks. Ghosts of the past, architecture fleeting in importance, all finding themselves reduced to nothing time and time again and being rebuilt anew, much like the Dark Souls games.
I'll put it this way: given enough time, it's reasonable to say that any given event in history, statistically, ought to occur at least once. So who's to say that the events of Ocarina of Time, or Wind Waker, or Twilight Princess haven't happened multiple times throughout an enormous span of history in one extremely long linear timeline, and that's how they can all be referenced in one single piece of work? Who's to say that, at some point in time, Ocarina of Time occured in Spirit Tracks' version of Hyrule, hundreds or thousands of years after the point where trains became irrelevant?
The only other thing (besides everything just being cute meta references to past video games from the developers and not much more, or just a flat-out reboot) that makes any sense to me is if all the events of previous games happened in the BotW timeline, but they happened slightly differently and with respect to each other, or literally none of the events happened and all the cool tunics and stuff we find are just people in Hyrule giving importance to garments that aren't actually important, which is totally a real thing that could happen in history.
I think that BotW takes place after such a long time that the events of all other Zelda games have conceivably happened in some point of history, but the Kingdom of Hyrule has risen and fallen from ash so many times that the lines between what is factual and what is fiction is blurred in-universe, and some aspects could even be a misunderstood history. We, as players, see these games and play them and know their stories to be complete, but the actual when of these games can be absolutely loose. I don't see any reason why the vast majority of Zelda games (aside from the obvious direct sequels like OoT -> MM) couldn't have taken place hundreds of thousands of years after each other, with the definition of what is "Hyrule" changing each and every time as the kingdom rebuilds itself and is subsequently destroyed eventually. We've even seen Hyrule be re-established in Spirit Tracks. Ghosts of the past, architecture fleeting in importance, all finding themselves reduced to nothing time and time again and being rebuilt anew, much like the Dark Souls games.
I'll put it this way: given enough time, it's reasonable to say that any given event in history, statistically, ought to occur at least once. So who's to say that the events of Ocarina of Time, or Wind Waker, or Twilight Princess haven't happened multiple times throughout an enormous span of history in one extremely long linear timeline, and that's how they can all be referenced in one single piece of work? Who's to say that, at some point in time, Ocarina of Time occured in Spirit Tracks' version of Hyrule, hundreds or thousands of years after the point where trains became irrelevant?
The only other thing (besides everything just being cute meta references to past video games from the developers and not much more, or just a flat-out reboot) that makes any sense to me is if all the events of previous games happened in the BotW timeline, but they happened slightly differently and with respect to each other, or literally none of the events happened and all the cool tunics and stuff we find are just people in Hyrule giving importance to garments that aren't actually important, which is totally a real thing that could happen in history.
Mango
Eltit Motsuc
- Pronouns
- She, Her
There's a quest that specifically ties the Sword of the Six Sages or the Dusk Sword as it's called in TotK to the Ancient Sages from ToTK. It's not enough to specifically call the two groups the same but I feel like both are mysterious and it wouldn't be a huge stretch for both to be the same.
The only major problem would be the different elements between the two groups. One consists of:
Forest, Fire, Water, Shadow, Spirit, and Light (OOT and TP)
The other is:
Wind, Fire, Water, Lightning, Spirit, Light (TotK, just minus Sonia and Zelda)
I can see the obvious connection to Wind and Forest, but Lightning going to Spirit, and Spirit becoming darkness are hard to explain.
Ignoring the difference in elemental powers tho, the Sages from Twilight Princess are ordered to protect the Mirror of Twilight a relic from the Interloper War which is a part of the larger Era of Chaos, which is the era right before the founding of Hyrule according to the timeline, so if take TotK at face value and assume it really is the founding, than the two groups are basically like back-to-back in regards to when they presumably existed/came into being. Of course you could argue the Twilight Princess sages came about later, which would be fair to say, but regardless the similarity of when they operated the most is definitely strange.
The only major problem would be the different elements between the two groups. One consists of:
Forest, Fire, Water, Shadow, Spirit, and Light (OOT and TP)
The other is:
Wind, Fire, Water, Lightning, Spirit, Light (TotK, just minus Sonia and Zelda)
I can see the obvious connection to Wind and Forest, but Lightning going to Spirit, and Spirit becoming darkness are hard to explain.
Ignoring the difference in elemental powers tho, the Sages from Twilight Princess are ordered to protect the Mirror of Twilight a relic from the Interloper War which is a part of the larger Era of Chaos, which is the era right before the founding of Hyrule according to the timeline, so if take TotK at face value and assume it really is the founding, than the two groups are basically like back-to-back in regards to when they presumably existed/came into being. Of course you could argue the Twilight Princess sages came about later, which would be fair to say, but regardless the similarity of when they operated the most is definitely strange.
The issue with this theory is Zelda has never been consistent with it's races.
If it was a lot of the races from Skyward Sword would be in future games instead of assuming they went extinct for whatever reason.
Jimmy Joe
Good ol' Jimmy Joe
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I kind of assumed that the Twilight Princess Sages were the "ancient sages" who helped build the terrestrial Temple of Time, and that the OOT sages only awoke to their roles when Ganondorf killed the ancient sages during the 7-year timeskip. The Sages, like the Hero, are roles that people rise up to fulfill as the need arises
OP
OP
- Pronouns
- he/him
Honestly not a bad theory. Ocarina Rauru was one of those ancient sages himself in lore and may have been one of the TP sages in a less substantiated form. I always assumed the discrepency between the Ocarina sages and the seven wise men of LttP's backstory was a historical whitewashing of them into Hylians by the time of LttP (still doesn't quite explain the maidens being descendants of them). But Sage being a cosmic role to fill as needed fits in pretty well with most of the games they appear in.
balgajo
Koopa
Currently Zonai temple of time is located above central hyrule. But it was on great plateau at some point right? At least I remember someone pinpointing the master sword altar location before game release. I wonder if the temple of time ruins is older than Zonai temple of time. Because ruins and near locations have a lot of reference to triforce and the three goddess.
Just noticed today that Sonia has a triforce paiting btw.
Just noticed today that Sonia has a triforce paiting btw.
neon
garfield enthusiast
its was on the current hyrulian tot location
additionally the hyrule castle town ruins (eastern abbey) did not exist in totks flashback
Jimmy Joe
Good ol' Jimmy Joe
- Pronouns
- He/Him
This is another thing that makes me think that TOTK's flashbacks take place in the remote past: there are no OOT-era-evoking ruins, which suggests that it is, at minimum, in an era that predates OOT
It places a hard lower limit on the age of this version of the setting
More, if the Zonai Temple of Time predates the Ocarina of Time version of the building, which is probably the same one that used to be the Temple of Hylia in Skyward Sword...
neon
garfield enthusiast
imo tears past and oot likely occur pretty close to each other
besides all of this, in the depths we see a ton of oot style soldier 'spirits', we see young kotake and koume, and oot castle cannot be totks present due to the whole eastern abbey thing, but would match up with the totk past castle/fortress
Mango
Eltit Motsuc
- Pronouns
- She, Her
The Temple of Times can't really be the same neither can the two Raurus. OOT Rauru seals the Sacred Realm and himself with the Master Sword/Temple of Time, in the Era of Chaos before the founding of Hyrule. TotK Rauru seals Ganondorf underground after the founding. We'd have to assume that:
A. OOT Rauru built the Zonai temple of time over the Sealed Temple, and the Master Sword is in it in the past just not seen. Said Temple is than separated somehow, and was sent into the sky. The OOT temple of time is than built over the Master Sword by someone else.
B. OOT Rauru built the Temple of Time over the Sealed Temple, which isn't on the Great Plateau. TotK Rauru or someone else builds the Zonai Temple of Time on the Great Plateau.
A. OOT Rauru built the Zonai temple of time over the Sealed Temple, and the Master Sword is in it in the past just not seen. Said Temple is than separated somehow, and was sent into the sky. The OOT temple of time is than built over the Master Sword by someone else.
B. OOT Rauru built the Temple of Time over the Sealed Temple, which isn't on the Great Plateau. TotK Rauru or someone else builds the Zonai Temple of Time on the Great Plateau.
Jimmy Joe
Good ol' Jimmy Joe
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I think it's important to keep in mind that the Hyrule Historia and Zelda Encyclopedia aren't the actual arbiters of canonicity, and don't have to be taken as authorities on events or timeline placements
I agree the two Raurus can't be the same; Rauru in TOTK and Rauru in OOT are absolutely not the same guy. Rauru TOTK dies in the canon of the game, he couldn't have been around in the time of OOT whether he lived before or after it
The questions we have to ask ourselves are two-fold, I think:
1. Is the Temple of Time in Ocarina of Time the same building as the Sealed Temple in Skyward Sword? If they are, the Master Sword didn't need to be moved between the two games; if they aren't, who moved the Master Sword? Only the Hero or Hylia is capable of drawing it
2. Is the Temple of Time on the Great Plateau the same building as the Temple of Time in Ocarina of Time?
When we answer these questions, I think we get a lot closer to addressing the issue of when TOTK's backstory takes place
Mango
Eltit Motsuc
- Pronouns
- She, Her
@Jimmy Joe
The only thing Hyrule Historia and Encyclopedia really added was it being built over the Sealed Temple. Which honestly was already heavily implied by Skyward Sword giving the Sealed Temple sage symbolism and by having it be located in just the right spot that Eldin Volcano was peeking around it's left side, just like Death Mountain in OOT. We can't confidently say they're the same, but if they aren't than we have to ask ourselves, like you said, how the Master Sword was moved, which there's no good answer for.
BOTWs Hyrule does seem to imply however that the Sealed Temple and the Great Plateau are relatively in the same location. There's enough wiggle room for the Sealed Temple to have existed a bit further East/East South, but the way the game made it's Hyrule is very clearly implying the location of the Great Plateau is very close to where the Sealed Temple once was.
The only thing Hyrule Historia and Encyclopedia really added was it being built over the Sealed Temple. Which honestly was already heavily implied by Skyward Sword giving the Sealed Temple sage symbolism and by having it be located in just the right spot that Eldin Volcano was peeking around it's left side, just like Death Mountain in OOT. We can't confidently say they're the same, but if they aren't than we have to ask ourselves, like you said, how the Master Sword was moved, which there's no good answer for.
BOTWs Hyrule does seem to imply however that the Sealed Temple and the Great Plateau are relatively in the same location. There's enough wiggle room for the Sealed Temple to have existed a bit further East/East South, but the way the game made it's Hyrule is very clearly implying the location of the Great Plateau is very close to where the Sealed Temple once was.
LegendHero
Tektite
The TotK Sages seem to have the powers they have independent of being officially "Sages", because the secret stones are said to simply amplify divine powers they already possessed. So it's possible they don't actually need to always have the exact same affinities. They just need to have the wisdom and magical power necessary to join forces to fight the Demon King. The fact that they largely failed during Hyrule's founding against this Demon King could also explain why the ones in Ocarina view it as imperative that they have a Hero to fight alongside them. In the original telling of the Imprisoning War in ALttP's manual it said that the location of the Master Sword wasn't known to anyone in Hyrule at that time and a hero wasn't found either, so that's one of the ways this game's Imprisoning War is actually more like that version than Ocarina of Time was.
balgajo
Koopa
what's tot?
neon
garfield enthusiast
temple of time
andipossess
Rattata
- Pronouns
- they/she
I think, given the design similarities and the size of the Hylia statue, it's more likely that the Sealed Temple became the Forgotten Temple than the Temple of Time (and somehow was relocated to the Tanagar Canyon, I know), retconning the statement in Hyrule Historia/Encyclopedia that it became the Temple of Time. Either way, Rauru was definitely in both areas, seeing as the secret stones were located within one, and he clearly visited the location of the other.
Interesting that all three possible Sealed Temples (Temple of Time, other Temple of Time, and Forgotten Temple) all have Hylia statues in them of different sizes though. Did Rauru somehow place a Hylia statue in the Zonai Temple of Time after the events of the past? Or was it there all along? Weird stuff.
EDIT: Also, should be noted that Sonia specifically called out that Zelda has a sacred power (and there was clearly something going on in the Molduga memory showing Zelda's power levels.) Did Sonia mean Zelda has sacred powers that Sonia herself doesn't have? Was she referring to Rauru's light powers? To Hylia's powers? To the Triforce (that Zelda possibly possesses)?
Interesting that all three possible Sealed Temples (Temple of Time, other Temple of Time, and Forgotten Temple) all have Hylia statues in them of different sizes though. Did Rauru somehow place a Hylia statue in the Zonai Temple of Time after the events of the past? Or was it there all along? Weird stuff.
EDIT: Also, should be noted that Sonia specifically called out that Zelda has a sacred power (and there was clearly something going on in the Molduga memory showing Zelda's power levels.) Did Sonia mean Zelda has sacred powers that Sonia herself doesn't have? Was she referring to Rauru's light powers? To Hylia's powers? To the Triforce (that Zelda possibly possesses)?
Onilink
Shriekbat
Basically TOTK is a reimagined OOT.
ALTTP imprisoning wars is OOT without Link.
TP backstory is another kind of imprisoning wars.
Basically if TOTK happens thousands of years after the old timelines, what stops us to believe that the timeline is unique and every imprisoning wars repeats itself After thousands of years?
ALTTP imprisoning wars is OOT without Link.
TP backstory is another kind of imprisoning wars.
Basically if TOTK happens thousands of years after the old timelines, what stops us to believe that the timeline is unique and every imprisoning wars repeats itself After thousands of years?
neon
garfield enthusiast
it amplifies its owners power, and power varies for different owners so yes
zelda got her time one for plot reasons and already having super high light control I assume
balgajo
Koopa
At some point Rauru mentions that she also has light powers inside her. Zelda was like: "C'mon bitch, why do I need a secret stone to amplify my light powers if I have the fucking triforce."
Though the triforce might also be the source of Rauru light power.
Jimmy Joe
Good ol' Jimmy Joe
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Moving the Mother Goddess statue seems like less of a problem than moving the Master Sword would be; everything else is kind of ancillary to that
I think the idea behind all the Hylia statues and Triforce symbology is that the Zonai venerated Hylia, even if the Hylians (or Sheikah, since Sonia's colour palette is lifted almost directly from Skyward Sword Impa) were the only ones who knew about the Triforce
My theory about Zelda dwarfing Rauru and Sonia combined is that she carries the blood of Hylia while Sonia doesn't, though she still comes from the same line of priests of Hylia
neon
garfield enthusiast
pretty sure sonia is hylia related
she specifically has time control which even a super powerful random priest shouldn't have and time is very hylia associated
Candescence
Inky Futurist
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Hot take: There is no coherent timeline (or timelines) and the series might actually be better off without one. BOTW and TotK may reference older titles, but there's also so many inconsistencies that I'm very much convinced Aonuma and his team either have absolutely no interest in maintaining a consistent continuity and lore or they're just not very good at it.
I personally subscribe to the idea that the series is a collection of myths and legends surrounding Link, Zelda, Ganon and Hyrule, sometimes essentially retellings of the same stories in different ways and/or with new elements - think stuff like Greek mythology, the mythos of King Arthur, Robin Hood, etc. Trying to establish a single coherent 'canon' is just an exercise in frustration and arguably not worth the effort.
I mean, I'm not gonna discourage people from trying to make it all fit together, but I've personally decided it's just too much of a headache to really bother, there's just too much in TotK that doesn't work with the rest of the "canon".
I personally subscribe to the idea that the series is a collection of myths and legends surrounding Link, Zelda, Ganon and Hyrule, sometimes essentially retellings of the same stories in different ways and/or with new elements - think stuff like Greek mythology, the mythos of King Arthur, Robin Hood, etc. Trying to establish a single coherent 'canon' is just an exercise in frustration and arguably not worth the effort.
I mean, I'm not gonna discourage people from trying to make it all fit together, but I've personally decided it's just too much of a headache to really bother, there's just too much in TotK that doesn't work with the rest of the "canon".
neon
garfield enthusiast
Thats a fine and valid interpretation to have but is verifiability false (at least up to botw). Almost every game in the series is either a sequel or prequel to others, and the ties between the major entries are quite strong. That being said, when it gets to botw I feel the dev team really did stop caring as much so they could just use whatever elements of any title they want, hence things like TotK being a cool hyrule origin story seemingly close to oot that also has large inconsistencies that make that difficult to believe, and I feel like we do need to take things far more at face value now if we still want to speculate on the line for the future.
we do it because its fun! totally understand why you might find it frustrating though
Mango
Eltit Motsuc
- Pronouns
- She, Her
I honestly hate the "there's no timeline" type of statements that get thrown around. No offense to anyone, but where have y'all been for like the last 30 years? The series has had a timeline since day 1.
Also no I don't think it would be better without one, I think it could be if they tried more with their stories and dropped the whole Link can't talk and must have no reactions to anything thing, but even then the overall world of Hyrule itself would suffer immensely if each game only had itself to act as world-building.
No offense to anyone of course, just wanted to get my two cents out on these repeated statements I've seen a lot since 2011.
Also no I don't think it would be better without one, I think it could be if they tried more with their stories and dropped the whole Link can't talk and must have no reactions to anything thing, but even then the overall world of Hyrule itself would suffer immensely if each game only had itself to act as world-building.
No offense to anyone of course, just wanted to get my two cents out on these repeated statements I've seen a lot since 2011.
AtomicZach
Koopa
The funny thing is that the Imprisoning War has always been this weird piece of lore that has never stayed consistent. A Link to the Past has the war start when Ganondorf, a random thief leader, somehow stumbled upon the triforce and after a brutal infighting, claimed it slicked in the blood of his once fellow thieves. This is almost immediately contradicted by Ocarina of Time which has him as the king of the Gerudo and you'd think this would make the Imprisoning War easy but A Link Between Worlds not only doubles down on the Ganondorf was nothing more than a common theif, but also contradicts A Link to the Past by making Zelda and the Six Maidens into Zelda and the Seven Sages.
So quite frankly TotK changing up the Imprisoning War again is tradition.
So quite frankly TotK changing up the Imprisoning War again is tradition.
Hello everyone, I subscribed to this forum just now after beating Totk (what an amazing game!), but I've been reading you for a while.
I want to discuss with you a lore matter that has been bugging me, and want to know what you think about it. Sorry for my poor english, I'll try my best.
Zelda, at a certain point in time, travels back in time, than transforms into a dragon and lives for thousand of years, till the end of totk. At a certain point in time, we must have two Zeldas living in the same world: Dragon Zelda with the master sword and Botw Zelda. And that's acceptable, since at a certain point in time Zelda is born, even if there is Dragon Zelda lurking around.
The problem is the master sword. The only way possibile for it to be two master sword in the same universe, is that Totk's ancient past takes place before Skyward Sword (because in SS is where the master sword is seen for the first time, right?).
If we assume that SS events take place before Raul's foundation of Hyrule, than the frame of events between Zelda's transformation in dragon and the thousands of years ahead would not comprehend the creation of another master sword, hence it would not be possibile for Link to have it in BOTW since it's been sent to the past and it's been stuck on Dragon Zelda's head ever since.
But the other problem is that Ganondorf as we know him, The Demon King, is part of Demise's doom. If we accept the fact that Totk's past takes place before SS, to justify the presence of two master swords at a certain point in time, then Ganondorf as the Demon King could not exist in that distant past, because Demise has not yet cast his spell.
What am I missing here?
I want to discuss with you a lore matter that has been bugging me, and want to know what you think about it. Sorry for my poor english, I'll try my best.
Zelda, at a certain point in time, travels back in time, than transforms into a dragon and lives for thousand of years, till the end of totk. At a certain point in time, we must have two Zeldas living in the same world: Dragon Zelda with the master sword and Botw Zelda. And that's acceptable, since at a certain point in time Zelda is born, even if there is Dragon Zelda lurking around.
The problem is the master sword. The only way possibile for it to be two master sword in the same universe, is that Totk's ancient past takes place before Skyward Sword (because in SS is where the master sword is seen for the first time, right?).
If we assume that SS events take place before Raul's foundation of Hyrule, than the frame of events between Zelda's transformation in dragon and the thousands of years ahead would not comprehend the creation of another master sword, hence it would not be possibile for Link to have it in BOTW since it's been sent to the past and it's been stuck on Dragon Zelda's head ever since.
But the other problem is that Ganondorf as we know him, The Demon King, is part of Demise's doom. If we accept the fact that Totk's past takes place before SS, to justify the presence of two master swords at a certain point in time, then Ganondorf as the Demon King could not exist in that distant past, because Demise has not yet cast his spell.
What am I missing here?
Last edited:
Jimmy Joe
Good ol' Jimmy Joe
- Pronouns
- He/Him
The easiest solution is that Demise isn't the origin of Ganondorf, who Josha refers to as "not just any old Demon King, but THE Demon King"
Given that Demise and his horde come up out of the ground, and how the Calamity seems to be an extreme version of Phantom Ganon, I actually like the idea that our boy Demise was born out of Ganondorf's hatred, rather than the other way around
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Why is it a problem that there are two Master swords? Just like there are two Zeldas, it got sent into the past. It's a time travel duplicate, those are pretty typical things in time travel stories.
andipossess
Rattata
- Pronouns
- they/she
There's even a third thing with a time travel duplicate in the case of Rauru's secret stone, which Zelda took back with her as her own Time stone. So the Seven Sages only had 6 unique secret stones among them.
I actually explained in the post why it's a plot hole. It's possibile to have two Zelda because Zelda will eventually be born again, even if there is Dragon Zelda around. It would be also possible to have two master swords only if SS is set after Raul's era, so the Master Sword can be created again EVEN if it's stuck on the Dragon's head. Because if SS is set before Totk's ancient past, Link should not be able to have the master sword in BOTW since it's on the dragon's head.
But I personally think that Nintendo simply doesn't care. BOTW/TOTK are reboots of the series, that's the simpliest solution.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I still don't understand the issue.
Both Zelda and the Master Sword are experiencing time in a single straight timeline.
Zelda was born ~117 years before BOTW, spends 100 years trapped with Calamity Ganon, comes out, spends an indeterminate time with Link fixing/exploring Hyrule, gets to TotK, unknowingly uses the time stone and travels back to the ancient past. Then after she does all her stuff there she spends thousands of years as a dragon and then is saved by Link/Rauru/Sonia. From her experience that is one single linear timeline.
The Master Sword is the same. It was created in the time of SS, it exists through countless ages and variations of the hero, finally comes to TotK and is sent back to the ancient past. Then it spends thousands of years with dragon Zelda until it is recovered by Link. From its perspective it is one single linear existence, same as Zelda.
I don't understand why that is a plot hole, it's a very normal idea in all time travel stories.
andipossess
Rattata
- Pronouns
- they/she
Maybe a badly drawn diagram will help. This traces the paths of the time travelers (assuming they exist on the old timeline).
Light blue is Zelda.
Yellow is Rauru's/Zelda's secret stone.
Dark blue/purple is the Master Sword.
Any periods with a doubled-up arrow going down has a time travel duplicate.
Light blue is Zelda.
Yellow is Rauru's/Zelda's secret stone.
Dark blue/purple is the Master Sword.
Any periods with a doubled-up arrow going down has a time travel duplicate.
Jimmy Joe
Good ol' Jimmy Joe
- Pronouns
- He/Him
The Master Sword was very badly damaged while Zelda was reinfusing it with power; even if it was extant during other major conflicts (Ocarina, Skyward Sword, Link to the Past, basically any game where the sword mattered) it couldn't be used because it was still in the process of healing
The only master sword that exists in sent to the past and stays on the dragon head throught history, and is retrieved in Totk. Link should not be able to have it in BOTW since the sword has always been on the dragon's head. If the sword is not created after the dragon event, we cannot have two master swords and Link cannot have it in BOTW. It's a little complicated.
I'm really sorry I'm not able to express myself better.
balgajo
Koopa
This. Basically they know how to perform the dupe glitch.Maybe a badly drawn diagram will help. This traces the paths of the time travelers (assuming they exist on the old timeline).
Light blue is Zelda.
Yellow is Rauru's/Zelda's secret stone.
Dark blue/purple is the Master Sword.
Any periods with a doubled-up arrow going down has a time travel duplicate.
Why we can't have two master swords at the same time?
- Pronouns
- He/Him
It is placed on the dragon's head after Link finds it in BOTW relative to its own perspective.
Time travel can be a bit confusing to wrap your head around, but the idea that the same object can exist in two places at once because it is at some point sent to the past is not at all a plot hole, it's a core tenet of the idea of time travel.
The diagram @andipossess posted above is helpful in illustrating it.
We can have two master sword only if Skyward Sword is set after Raul's foundation of Hyrule.
Which sword was Link using in BOTW since the master sword was in the process of healing on the dragon's head?
Jimmy Joe
Good ol' Jimmy Joe
- Pronouns
- He/Him
The way time travel works in TOTK is that the past isn't retroactively changed, it was always this way. It's a closed time loop
Think of it like this: first there is one Master Sword, the one created in Skyward Sword.
When the TOTK Master Sword arrives the past, there are two Master Swords, one whole and one broken. The broken one is put on the dragon's head, but the first Master Sword is still there.
When we get to the present and Link sends the previously-whole-but-now-broken Master Sword into the past, there is now only one Master Sword again, theo ne on the dragon's head.
There was a period of tens or hundreds of thousands of years where there were two Master Swords, one in a pedestal and one in Zelda's hair
The one Link used in BOTW was the one created in Skyward Sword
andipossess
Rattata
- Pronouns
- they/she
At the time of BotW there were two Master Swords. The one Link was using was the one that was last by Link 100 years ago and by the previous Hero 10,000 years ago. The other Master Sword is the one stuck on the Light Dragon's head, which was last used by Link 5-6 years in the future.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
It's the same sword...
Imagine the Master Sword was built with a clock, or better yet a calendar. Let's say it just counts the years since it was made.
SS = year 1
BOTW = year 30,000 (just as an example)
TotK = year 30,005
At the beginning of TotK Link sends the sword back in time, let's say 20,000 years. The calendar on the sword doesn't change though. It still says 30,005 when it's sent back because it's just counting the years it experiences.
So it spends another 20,000 years on the dragon's head, and when Link recovers it in TotK the calendar now says 50,005.
Jimmy Joe
Good ol' Jimmy Joe
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I feel you. Time travel can be a lot to keep up with!I guess you guys are right and I just complicated things
JorgenRaft
Chain Chomp
After just beating it, I think it's more clear than ever at this point that the devs will never put as much thought into the timeline than the fandom does. Sometimes there will be some obvious acknowledgements such as the WW/OoT connections and Skyward Sword in general, but even the officially released timeline has inconsistencies. They pretty much just do what they want for the story they want to tell even if it contradicts past stories, for better or worse.
