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Spoiler The Legend of Zelda series timeline and lore discussion thread, post-TotK (full series open spoilers)
- Thread starter WestEgg
- Start date
OP
OP
- Pronouns
- he/him
Yeah, this reaffirms both my realistic interpretation (“It’s what works for this story, fill in the blanks however you like”) and my personal interpretation (both games take place late in the timeline relative to the previous games).
Mango
Eltit Motsuc
- Pronouns
- She, Her
He stated that as only a possibility not as if its a fact to be clear.
SNP
Sorcerer Supreme
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Yeah, I saw one other translation and he clearly said "If I'm just talking about this as a possibility". It’s not a confirmation but a “You could explore all the possibilities with the clue we provided right (right now)”. And they didn't just throw stuff in there for fun, they had the ideal in mind of what they wanted to do but they won't say it now.
Onilink
Shriekbat
Of course, but it's his possibility vs mine that says that the imprisoning war is the ALTTP one if Link die before opening the temple of time
This is the translation, i want to point to:
Fujibayashi : There is no doubt that the story is set after Breath of the Wild. And basically, the "Legend of Zelda" series thinks about the story and the world so as not to collapse. I can only say two things at this point.
If there is a premise that `it won't go bankrupt,'' I think there is room for fans to think about things like So, is this even possible?' If I'm just talking about this as a possibility, even if there is a story about the founding of Hyrule, there is a possibility that there is a history where Hyrule was destroyed once before that. I didn't make it just by thinking,`Wouldn't it be interesting if I did this?'', so I hope you enjoy imagining things, including the parts that aren't talked about.
What is really saying, is that the world and the lore is coherent.
So, if there are no contradiction, you can say "ok, the story could take place here".
Then he give us an hint, his possibilities are basically bones throws at us about the game placement, then he says "ok, the prologue is up to you"
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- Pronouns
- he/him
They're not going to close the door on any (plausible) interpretations when they probably haven't figured out how the next game fits into the timeline. But Fujibayashi saying that TotK doesn't "break" the canon and also presenting that specific possibility already helps to reframe the discussion. As someone who thinks that releasing the official timeline was a mistake, I'm happy that they're now leaving room for people to interpret their own timeline placements. I posted this on the first page of this thread and I feel even more confident about it now:
Zelda already deals with cyclical events, the rise and fall of Hyrule, Zelda and Link being repeatedly reincarnated, demons being defeated only to be resurrected again etc. Rebirth and decay and the endless (and repeating) struggle against evil are the driving forces of the world of Zelda and BotW/TotK is just another expression of this, just on a much grander scale. Similarly to how the Wheel of Time deals with it, events repeat themselves in the broadest strokes but can be very different if you look at the details.
Zelda already deals with cyclical events, the rise and fall of Hyrule, Zelda and Link being repeatedly reincarnated, demons being defeated only to be resurrected again etc. Rebirth and decay and the endless (and repeating) struggle against evil are the driving forces of the world of Zelda and BotW/TotK is just another expression of this, just on a much grander scale. Similarly to how the Wheel of Time deals with it, events repeat themselves in the broadest strokes but can be very different if you look at the details.
Serif
𝕽𝖊𝖓𝖊𝖌𝖆𝖉𝖊 𝕬𝖓𝖌𝖊𝖑
I wouldn't be surprised if there was never an overarching direction for when the memories took place, that some members of the dev team decided pre-OoT and inserted young Koume and Kotake and Old Hylian text on Ganondorf's weapons to further indicate this, while others weren't beholden to this and we ended up with possibly contradictory design elements.
Personally it is more exciting to see the beginnings of a Hyrule Kingdom that we have been familiar with for the past 25+ years, in a pre Ocarina time where the Triforce became an unobtainable mythic artifact (as in Minish Cap) and we have effective Gods (Zonai) walking the earth. To see a civilization that combines Japanese, Mesoamerican and Classical Greco-Roman elements as a precursor to the diversity of 'modern' Hyrule. It holds more resonance for me to believe in this.
Personally it is more exciting to see the beginnings of a Hyrule Kingdom that we have been familiar with for the past 25+ years, in a pre Ocarina time where the Triforce became an unobtainable mythic artifact (as in Minish Cap) and we have effective Gods (Zonai) walking the earth. To see a civilization that combines Japanese, Mesoamerican and Classical Greco-Roman elements as a precursor to the diversity of 'modern' Hyrule. It holds more resonance for me to believe in this.
HockeyBird
Villager
- Pronouns
- He/Him
The series will never adhere to a strict timeline or lore bible. The team obviously thinks that would be too limiting, both from a story and a gameplay standpoint. They'll of course keep adding in references and nods to other games for fans that have been with the series for a long time. Things are connected but you're left to ponder how. Each Zelda game is part of the puzzle but you'll never get the complete picture. You're only ever looking at that specific adventure in that moment of time but world is far more vast and extensive then what will ever shown in all of the games. I kind of think of each new Zelda game as uncovering a new piece of archeology. You're discovering a story from a specific time period and like archeologists, it's up to us to ponder how it connects with the other pieces we have discovered.
OP
OP
- Pronouns
- he/him
I do want to point out again that we already have one instance of Koume and Kotake having either been reincarnated or resurrected later in the timeline via the Oracle games, so having another instance of them either in an ancient or future era of Hyrule isn’t without precedent (just assuming it’s not a common name for twins or titles to begin with). I think the two Gerudo are just a small nod at most, no more significant in anchoring the events to a time period than Beedle.
Serif
𝕽𝖊𝖓𝖊𝖌𝖆𝖉𝖊 𝕬𝖓𝖌𝖊𝖑
Characters like Beedle, Malon, Talon, etc. are normal mortal Hylians and their reappearances can be treated as easter eggs and fun re-occurrences. Meanwhile, it is very much plausible for Twinrova, who are already practitioners of dark magic (and who honestly may have faked their deaths with the whole 'rising up to heaven' bit in OoT), to have been revived between Ocarina and the Oracle games and being the same witches whose goal it is to resurrect their surrogate son, and it is plausible for their appearance in TotK to be their younger selves. Their names showing up on Ganondorf's weapons as the proper Old Hylian instead of BotW Hylian may be a hint to both their relation as his guardians, and the intended time period. If the whole point of Fujibayashi's statement is that he doesn't want to discount any possibility, then it is valid to take these details to speculate a pre-OOT placement.
balgajo
Koopa
I believe they were killed by Link just on the adult timeline. They could be alive at alltp timeline and child one.
OP
OP
- Pronouns
- he/him
I don’t know if it’s specifically said, but I’ve always been under the impression Link’s point of defeat in the downfall timeline is the final battle with Ganondorf.
Serif
𝕽𝖊𝖓𝖊𝖌𝖆𝖉𝖊 𝕬𝖓𝖌𝖊𝖑
The implication by Hyrule Historia is that Link died as an adult in the final battle with Ganondorf, with the Sages already awakened and able to seal him.
An alternative idea is that Link tried to face Ganondorf as a child and died. After all, Link seemed pretty much ready to go and pull out the Master Sword and fight him, he had no idea he'd be sealed. In this scenario where he dies, Zelda and Rauru rewind time again. The Master Sword, which itself has timeshift properties and may have an awareness of this alternate reality, seals Link for seven years so he can face Ganondorf. And the timeline where Link dies becomes the LttP timeline. This has its own issues but it's fun to think about.
balgajo
Koopa
My my....Really digged into this idea.
Me too. But I don't remember it being explicited like this. Though maybe just my memory failing on me.
Anyway, at least in the timeline where Ganondorf is "executed" I believe they survived.
Mango
Eltit Motsuc
- Pronouns
- She, Her
Your interpretation of his words as being a bone thrown to you is just your interpretation. Nothing about placing the memories before OOt would "break the canon."
Onilink
Shriekbat
Actually there is an elephant in the room: why Mineru and Rauru doesn't know the existence of Master Sword?
Mango
Eltit Motsuc
- Pronouns
- She, Her
@Onilink
We really can't say either of them didn't know about it. Rauru doesn't mention it till near the end of the memories and Mineru only seems to not know that it can damage Ganondorf and that it can accumulate power, both of which would slot in fine before OOT. As, assuming it's before OOT, we'd be looking at a scenario where Ganondorf is not a known quantity and the existence of Demise and the Hero of the Sky who used the Master Sword to defeat Demise would already be fairly old. The sword likely would also still be in the pedestal SS Link left it in, so it's not like anyone would be able to pull it anyways.
The answer also has a few more layers when you stop to consider that the founding of Hyrule on the timeline proper is right after the construction of the OOT Temple of Time and thus the sealing of the Sacred Realm, and thus it's incredibly likely, even strongly implied, that the Master Sword nor Triforce appear in the memories because they've been intentionally hidden so as to keep the Triforce safe.
Of course ultimately the placement is up to you, but for me I fail to see what problems exist that would prevent a pre-OOT placement.
We really can't say either of them didn't know about it. Rauru doesn't mention it till near the end of the memories and Mineru only seems to not know that it can damage Ganondorf and that it can accumulate power, both of which would slot in fine before OOT. As, assuming it's before OOT, we'd be looking at a scenario where Ganondorf is not a known quantity and the existence of Demise and the Hero of the Sky who used the Master Sword to defeat Demise would already be fairly old. The sword likely would also still be in the pedestal SS Link left it in, so it's not like anyone would be able to pull it anyways.
The answer also has a few more layers when you stop to consider that the founding of Hyrule on the timeline proper is right after the construction of the OOT Temple of Time and thus the sealing of the Sacred Realm, and thus it's incredibly likely, even strongly implied, that the Master Sword nor Triforce appear in the memories because they've been intentionally hidden so as to keep the Triforce safe.
Of course ultimately the placement is up to you, but for me I fail to see what problems exist that would prevent a pre-OOT placement.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Just had a galaxy brain moment.
So the Era of the Wild is set so far past in the future that it's made everything that came before it a distant legend. Hyrule's topography is completely changed, the kingdom is basically unrecognizable.
What if.. the Depths are the old Hyrule? Decayed and withered, and nature has been doing its thing by burying the kingdom(s) of old beneath new landmasses. And the reason that you find these "amiibo armor" of old heroes there is because they're still intact from all of the past eras, left forgotten along with the old Hyrule.
So the Era of the Wild is set so far past in the future that it's made everything that came before it a distant legend. Hyrule's topography is completely changed, the kingdom is basically unrecognizable.
What if.. the Depths are the old Hyrule? Decayed and withered, and nature has been doing its thing by burying the kingdom(s) of old beneath new landmasses. And the reason that you find these "amiibo armor" of old heroes there is because they're still intact from all of the past eras, left forgotten along with the old Hyrule.
YolkFolk
Tingle
I think similar.
When the great sea became solid and the land became habitable, the Zonai descended from the heavens and began the new civilisation. The chasms which opened up lead to the old Hyrule, or the depths, which is thousands and thousands of years old.
Gingerbread Man
Paratroopa
Refunding after Wind Waker is the worst possible placement IMHO, as it goes against everything in WW ending.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
This has crossed my mind before. But reading the way you and Yolk put it has me realizing it'd fix the issue with "multiple Ganondorfs" and apparent series retcons by meaning no games have taken place between the past and present events in TotK
YolkFolk
Tingle
But the old Hyrule was washed away and the children did have hope and a future
OP
OP
- Pronouns
- he/him
This has been my assumption, especially as we know the Gerudo, Gorons, and Zora inhabited the areas in the depths at some point. Also noteable, the Rito are not represented by statues in the depths, which supports them being relatively recent in the timeline.
My biggest problem with this theory is evidence of the Zonai themselves in the Depths. It makes much more sense if they were never there, unless they were in Hyrule (or whatever you want to call it before Rauru founded the kingdom) for a very long time? I guess that's possible, but something about it still doesn't click with me.
Mango
Eltit Motsuc
- Pronouns
- She, Her
The depths topography don't make sense to be a version of Hyrule, where there's a mountain on the surface there's a trench or chasm. Like no version of Hyrule has a Death Crater instead of a Death Mountain. There's also little to no water down there and no bodies large enough to have been Lake Hylia.
YolkFolk
Tingle
Maybe the Zonai found the depths themselves and just used them as a mining resource. They just ended up losing the mining shafts over hundreds of years.
OP
OP
- Pronouns
- he/him
That’s my thought as well. Regarding topography not matching older Hyrule, aside from that being an issue regardless of the iteration of Hyrule, I’d just imagine millennia of burial, seismic activity, etc have warped the land into its current configuration. Like, Lake Hylia and Death Mountain have probably remained on the surface throughout the ages, just chunks of land have fallen through, or been covered over through eons of natural disaster and whatnot.
The Gorons make sense as having been a subterranean civilization, but the Gerudo and the Zora not so much.
balgajo
Koopa
Assuming Zonai Era came a lot of time after Zelda timeline.
Considering that the Zonai Temple of Time is completely different than the one from Botw and with the same architecture of Oot's, I wonder if at some point people tried to rebuild the temple of time in that location but the only reference/old documents they found were about Oot's one.
Considering that the Zonai Temple of Time is completely different than the one from Botw and with the same architecture of Oot's, I wonder if at some point people tried to rebuild the temple of time in that location but the only reference/old documents they found were about Oot's one.
Symtendo
Supachipz
I love the time travel aspect of this game, and it’s very much reflective of the time travel used in one of my favourite shows, which I’m going to spoiler tag here as I passionately believe that anyone that watches it should go in blind.
Lost (stop reading if you haven’t watched)
Seriously stop reading if you’ve never watched it, last chance…
Particularly season 5 where the characters flash through various years, witnessing, and impacting on several events that affect their own futures. For them, time moves in a straight line, they were born, they grow up, crash on the island, experience everything up until that point, and continue to experience the flashes on their own specific and straight time line. Where as, in the straight timeline of the show, these characters come and go at certain points in time, if you were to watch it in timeline order, or the shows own personal straight time line.
In TOTK, this happened with both Zelda and the Master Sword. Zelda is born, she grows up, experiences BOTW, goes with Link into the depths, where she falls and is transported through time, where on her own personal time line, she receives the broken master sword from the future, becomes a dragon, and then lives for thousands of years in the sky until Link arrives and collects the master sword and then eventually she helps link defeat the Ganondorf Dragon.
This means, that at the point that Zelda is born, she becomes the second Zelda in existence at that time, however, the new Zelda is at the beginning of her straight timeline, where as light dragon Zelda is way further down that time line.
I read this, as Light Dragon Zelda, could easily have always been there, with the master sword high in the sky through the whole series for anything that occurred after the moment she became a dragon. It doesn’t change anything else, as that’s what always happened in the universes own continuous straight time line. I don’t see the time travel aspect here as an impact on any other game in the series.
So if Zelda becoming a dragon occurs before the OOT time line split, in theory, she could have been floating around as the light dragon in all three timelines, and as such, this story could have occurred in any of those, (or any other post Draconfication) timelines and as such, each of those timelines has the potential to resolve Zelda’s own straight timeline in exactly the same way. This doesn’t necessarily mean that the timelines converge, but Zelda is the sage of time so there is always that possibility.
I guess, ultimately what I’m getting at is this game, could feasibly take place on ANY of the three existing timelines or if there is somehow a convergence of the timelines, it could also occur there.
it’s 5am here and I may have not articulated what I’m trying to say well, but my fellow Losties will know what I’m getting at.
Seriously stop reading if you’ve never watched it, last chance…
Particularly season 5 where the characters flash through various years, witnessing, and impacting on several events that affect their own futures. For them, time moves in a straight line, they were born, they grow up, crash on the island, experience everything up until that point, and continue to experience the flashes on their own specific and straight time line. Where as, in the straight timeline of the show, these characters come and go at certain points in time, if you were to watch it in timeline order, or the shows own personal straight time line.
In TOTK, this happened with both Zelda and the Master Sword. Zelda is born, she grows up, experiences BOTW, goes with Link into the depths, where she falls and is transported through time, where on her own personal time line, she receives the broken master sword from the future, becomes a dragon, and then lives for thousands of years in the sky until Link arrives and collects the master sword and then eventually she helps link defeat the Ganondorf Dragon.
This means, that at the point that Zelda is born, she becomes the second Zelda in existence at that time, however, the new Zelda is at the beginning of her straight timeline, where as light dragon Zelda is way further down that time line.
I read this, as Light Dragon Zelda, could easily have always been there, with the master sword high in the sky through the whole series for anything that occurred after the moment she became a dragon. It doesn’t change anything else, as that’s what always happened in the universes own continuous straight time line. I don’t see the time travel aspect here as an impact on any other game in the series.
So if Zelda becoming a dragon occurs before the OOT time line split, in theory, she could have been floating around as the light dragon in all three timelines, and as such, this story could have occurred in any of those, (or any other post Draconfication) timelines and as such, each of those timelines has the potential to resolve Zelda’s own straight timeline in exactly the same way. This doesn’t necessarily mean that the timelines converge, but Zelda is the sage of time so there is always that possibility.
I guess, ultimately what I’m getting at is this game, could feasibly take place on ANY of the three existing timelines or if there is somehow a convergence of the timelines, it could also occur there.
it’s 5am here and I may have not articulated what I’m trying to say well, but my fellow Losties will know what I’m getting at.
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