Fun Club The Legend of Arlo Tears of the Influence.

[Dardan Sandiego]

I want Nintendo to remake Ocarina of Time now to respark these kinds of discussions in the Zelda community

*Wind Waker

 

[AngryAlchemist]

*Wind Waker

Counterpoint: If they remade Wind Waker it might actually become a good game.

...Oh I get it, they're testing out the waters with the MID classic games first. Two entries that are disappointments coming off their 64 counterpart. When you're right, you're right.

 

[HockeyBird]

I'm excited for when fans of The Thousand-Year Door (Gamecube) inevitably start getting into arguments with fans of The Thousand-Year Door (Switch).

 

[Adulfzen]

tbh after having seen a few direct reaction vids it's always astounding how the response to the paper mario remake was sometimes "fuck you modern paper mario", like even in the light of a supposedly good announcement some people can't let go of their spite.

like the brain rot has fully taken over and you're just an husk responding to stimuli such as white outlines being there or not.

 

[Octavian]

tbh after having seen a few direct reaction vids it's always astounding how the response to the paper mario remake was sometimes "fuck you modern paper mario", like even in the light of a supposedly good announcement some people can't let go of their spite.

like the brain rot has fully taken over and you're just an husk responding to stimuli such as white outlines being there or not.

it's hardcore fans excited they're getting something in a series they thought was dead and never had a chance of coming back. the issues go way deeper than just artstyle.

the only reaction vid I saw where someone went "fuck you modern paper mario!!!!" is chuggaconroy's and he is a loud person with high functioning autism according to himself, so id give some grace on harshly judging his reaction. his opinions in his sticker star essay series are very mild mannered and not pure fanboy vitriol

 

[EricTheGamerman]

I don't even think Arlo is like a particular issue on his own when it comes to this discuss. It predated him and then superseded him. Like I get people are not his biggest fan, I typically just watch his reaction on something like Pikmin out of amusement and don't engage with most of what else he does... but I don't feel he warrants this huge of a discussion for a broader argument about the fan bases of each identity of Paper Mario.

It was fun to see him excited and happy for TTYD, I feel like we can very much just leave it there and not engage endlessly with the Paper Mario discussions. We live in a timeline where we got what people consider like the best Paper Mario since Super more in the new style and we're getting a TTYD remake (alongside a Super Mario RPG remake no less). It's like the best of both worlds and a little bit of something for everyone. We don't have to keep fighting this war at this specific moment. Maybe it'll be more relevant in the future, but there's no reason to expect Nintendo not to revisit more Mario RPGs after this too regardless of what exactly the next Paper Mario may specifically hold.

 

[ziggyrivers]

and threads like this just contribute to it.

This. I don’t get the purpose of creating a thread for Arlo. It’s not like he has a massive following and is an influencer on par with PewDiePie and others. He’s just a Nintendo Youtuber that got a cult and niché following because he tapped on a very controversial subject on a very specific segment of the internet: Paper Mario. I personally don’t consume his content, so I choose to ignore him. I used to follow another Youtuber, but after entering his live stream for watching the last Pokemon Presents and he was beefing with followers, I told myself that this wasn’t for me and I unfollowed him.

Which is what I recommend everyone to do: don’t like an Internet personality? Don’t follow them. Same with Dring. Don’t follow him.

There’s a saying that goes: any publicity is publicity. And there is something as real as “hatewatching” something. In complaining about a social media person and/or consuming their content out of spite is something that actually benefits them, which is contradictory when it comes from someone that does not like the creator’s content.

Unless, of course, it’s your guilty pleasure to hatewatch an influencer lol

 

[switchum]

I’m gonna be honest. I like Arlo. I enjoy his content. When he posts a new video on a subject that interests me, I take some time to watch it.

Do I agree with everything he’s ever said? Absolutely not. I’ve heavily disagreed with what he’s said, and in other cases, I’ve completely agreed. But I find his content entertaining regardless of whether or not I agree, because it gives me something to think about and consider my own views on.

 

[Adulfzen]

it's hardcore fans excited they're getting something in a series they thought was dead and never had a chance of coming back. the issues go way deeper than just artstyle.

the only reaction vid I saw where someone went "fuck you modern paper mario!!!!" is chuggaconroy's and he is a loud person with high functioning autism according to himself, so id give some grace on harshly judging his reaction. his opinions in his sticker star essay series are very mild mannered and not pure fanboy vitriol

once a franchise has moved away for three games in a row from what I liked initially about it, I'd personally just move on instead of obsessing over it. Same shit I don't understand about some Pokemon fans who seem to go through the same song and dance for close to a decade.

 

[Comic Obsessed]

once a franchise has moved away for three games in a row from what I liked initially about it, I'd personally just move on instead of obsessing over it. Same shit I don't understand about some Pokemon fans who seem to go through the same song and dance for close to a decade.

The thing is that Pokemon didn't even change direction, is still doing the same thing it has been doing since day one... just worse and less polished.

 

[Adulfzen]

The thing is that Pokemon didn't even change direction, is still doing the same thing it has been doing since day one... just worse and less polished.

Sure but my point remains that if a franchise I used to love is going in a direction I don't like, I'd rather move on at some point. Otherwise it just seems like feeding negative emotions for no good reasons.

 

[Octavian]

once a franchise has moved away for three games in a row from what I liked initially about it, I'd personally just move on instead of obsessing over it. Same shit I don't understand about some Pokemon fans who seem to go through the same song and dance for close to a decade.

i think most fans gave up after tok got announced and thought it was futile, hence the strong reactions to the ttyd remake.

I don't think expressing chronic disgruntlement is a bad thing at all, if a developer keeps making the same mistakes the criticism never ceases to be valid. change doesn't happen without the impact of criticism. if nsmb hadn't gotten flack for becoming samey/derivative we wouldn't be getting wonder's new direction

 

[Hailinel]

i think most fans gave up after tok got announced and thought it was futile, hence the strong reactions to the ttyd remake.

I don't think expressing chronic disgruntlement is a bad thing at all, if a developer keeps making the same mistakes the criticism never ceases to be valid. change doesn't happen without the impact of criticism. if nsmb hadn't gotten flack for becoming samey/derivative we wouldn't be getting wonder's new direction

What fans deem mistakes aren't necessarily mistakes. That PM hasn't been an RPG since TTYD isn't a mistake, for example. Are some games better than others? Yes, absolutely. But people continue to judge games like TOK as if it's Sticker Star when they're entirely different games with different mechanics and concepts aside from being Paper Mario titles.

 

[Octavian]

What fans deem mistakes aren't necessarily mistakes. That PM hasn't been an RPG since TTYD isn't a mistake, for example. Are some games better than others? Yes, absolutely. But people continue to judge games like TOK as if it's Sticker Star when they're entirely different games with different mechanics and concepts aside from being Paper Mario titles.

I think most people who dislike the new games considerately say tok is significantly better than ss. the most frequent sentiment I see "yeah it's good for what it is just not the ideal"

 

[Hailinel]

I think most people who dislike the new games considerately say tok is significantly better than ss. the most frequent sentiment I see "yeah it's good for what it is just not the ideal"

Again though, "not my ideal" is not "a mistake". Treating games that don't live up to your ideal with hostility doesn't do anything positive.

 

[Octavian]

Again though, "not my ideal" is not "a mistake". Treating games that don't live up to your ideal with hostility doesn't do anything positive.

criticism isn't inherently hostility

if people dislike a new series direction and said series continues to go down that direction, chronic criticism is fair. the games have improved significantly since ss, but most of the criticisms of the new formula universally apply to all 3 games (example: battles being pointless)

 

[Hailinel]

criticism isn't inherently hostility

if people dislike a new series direction and said series continues to go down that direction, chronic criticism is fair. the games have improved significantly since ss, but most of the criticisms of the new formula universally apply to all 3 games (example: battles being pointless)

What do you mean by "chronic disgruntlement" if not hostility?

If a game's existence is such a blight on your emotional well-being that it's become chronic, you need to step back from it.

 

[Octavian]

What do you mean by "chronic disgruntlement" if not hostility?

If a game's existence is such a blight on your emotional well-being that it's become chronic, you need to step back from it.

i just said chronic criticism. repeated criticism across multiple games is fair.

if someone is as upset you're saying I agree they need to take a break lol. but there's nothing wrong with repeated criticism this might be a point we have to agree to disagree on, but i think most fans critical of the new formula aren't toxically hostile, just a few bad apples which social media amplifies.

 

[jnWake]

How can a fanbase be basically as obnoxious when they get what they want than when they don’t get what they want.

 

[AoiHana]

Wait til you see Nintendo go to the 3DS for its remake stuff with shit like a new Steel Diver. Now that will be weird.

Here’s how Kid Icarus: Uprising can still win.

 

[Deleted member 2181]

His new video is wonderful.

 

[Raccoon]

How can a fanbase be basically as obnoxious when they get what they want than when they don’t get what they want.

nothing can erase the pain of nintendo having made games they don't like

 

[Rocketjay]

Why are you as an adult still thinking about how much you hate Sticker Star in the year of our lord 2023, more than a decade after its original release?

I think it's fascinating to look back at a game like Sticker Star and be baffled about how a game like that got published by Nintendo and made by Intelligent Systems.

 

[Tentacle-tropes]

I think it's fascinating to look back at a game like Sticker Star and be baffled about how a game like that got published by Nintendo and made by Intelligent Systems.

Really not that baffling all things considered

 

[Rocketjay]

Really not that baffling all things considered

I just remembered that Star Fox Zero and Amiibo Festival Existed =P.

Ok it's more for the fact that Intelligent Systems released a game so bland and boring after they made Super paper Mario, 64, and ttyd.

 

[Tentacle-tropes]

I just remembered that Star Fox Zero and Amiibo Festival Existed =P.

Ok it's more for the fact that Intelligent Systems released a game so bland and boring after they made Super paper Mario, 64, and ttyd.

My guess is they were stuck in a hard place between figuring out how much leeway they had with whatever guidelines were in place & taking Miyamoto’s advice way too literally. This in conjunction with switching up the battle system.

 

[Rocketjay]

My guess is they were stuck in a hard place between figuring out how much leeway they had with whatever guidelines were in place & taking Miyamoto’s advice way too literally. This in conjunction with switching up the battle system.

Yeah, in Chuggaconroy's video on Sticker Star he mentioned that the game had some development problems like losing/replacing their head director and restarting their project from scratch.

 

[thoughthaver]

tbh after having seen a few direct reaction vids it's always astounding how the response to the paper mario remake was sometimes "fuck you modern paper mario", like even in the light of a supposedly good announcement some people can't let go of their spite.

like the brain rot has fully taken over and you're just an husk responding to stimuli such as white outlines being there or not.

paper mario fans will never be happy and they deserve it

 

[Magic-Man]

it hasn't even really started, strap in for a ride

Paper Mario fans are so pessimistic that they can't accept that Nintendo just wanted to remake a classic game lmao

 

[Semi Lazy Gamer]

at least Arlo sticks to talking about paper mario in videos about it. Chuggaconroy brings it up randomly for no reason in other LPs

I'd have to go back through his main LPs, but I don't think he does it all that often there.

In the Runaway Guys however, it comes up often enough that Proton Jon is just sick of it.

 

[Magic-Man]

Spoiler: Unsolicited Paper Mario Opinion

In my opinion, the modern Paper Mario "hate" is blown way out of proportion and the classic Paper Mario fans aren't nearly as bad as people say they are. I don't blame the fans for being pissed off that the franchise they loved has completely changed, and I definitely don't blame them for being extremely happy the modern era of PM is seemingly dead for now. And I'm a big fan of Origami King and have never played the older games so I'm not biased here. The fanbase is finally happy. Let them be happy.

I also think that classic Zelda fans are FAR more annoying and toxic than classic Paper Mario fans, BUT MOVING ON....

 

[doodlewhizz]

People can like what they like, but it's really quite easy to be excited about a new thing coming and building it up without bringing something else down.

 

[Reinhard Schneider]

The thing is that Pokemon didn't even change direction, is still doing the same thing it has been doing since day one... just worse and less polished.

Counterpoint: Pokémon has always been the same, it was just easier to hide.

People forgets easily that tech and polishment were the most common criticisms of the series from the start. Pokémon games have always been ridiculously easy to break, but lower tech always made it less apparent, and when they reduced scope after the DPP difficulty/disorientation criticism games became more solid overall, but more common criticisms were

• Gen 1 was bug ridden even when it didn't seem so. Pokémon Stadium made apparent some glaring bugs in battle.
• Gen 2 Pokémon Crystal had no reason to be GBC exclusive. 2 frame Pokémon animations were ridiculous
• Gen 3 was gen 2 in technicolor. Looks at least 1 gen behind
• Gen 4 looks like a GBA game
• Gen 5 was the first one without major issues or tech complaints.
• Gen 6 looks like a DS game.
• Gen 7 didn't have major complaints either.

Gen 8 and Gen 9 aren't worse and less polished, they're a return to the big scope of the first 4 gens and, as such, they look one or two generations behind and more or less plagued with glitches. The more solid gens are the ones with the more limited scope, and yet Gen 6 was rightfully criticised for looking like a mid-high tier DS game.

I don't and can't consider Gen 9 worse, those games take the original concept and succesfully realize it in full 3D, they're fun and engaging, only real issue is that they're too complex for Game Freak's usual scope but they feel like a true evolution of the original world exploration in the first 4 gens.

 

[Ozeiyo]

it hasn't even really started, strap in for a ride

I'm not gonna buy it just to prove this poster right.

 

[Aether]

Counterpoint: Pokémon has always been the same, it was just easier to hide.

People forgets easily that tech and polishment were the most common criticisms of the series from the start. Pokémon games have always been ridiculously easy to break, but lower tech always made it less apparent, and when they reduced scope after the DPP difficulty/disorientation criticism games became more solid overall, but more common criticisms were

• Gen 1 was bug ridden even when it didn't seem so. Pokémon Stadium made apparent some glaring bugs in battle.
• Gen 2 Pokémon Crystal had no reason to be GBC exclusive. 2 frame Pokémon animations were ridiculous
• Gen 3 was gen 2 in technicolor. Looks at least 1 gen behind
• Gen 4 looks like a GBA game
• Gen 5 was the first one without major issues or tech complaints.
• Gen 6 looks like a DS game.
• Gen 7 didn't have major complaints either.

Gen 8 and Gen 9 aren't worse and less polished, they're a return to the big scope of the first 4 gens and, as such, they look one or two generations behind and more or less plagued with glitches. The more solid gens are the ones with the more limited scope, and yet Gen 6 was rightfully criticised for looking like a mid-high tier DS game.

I don't and can't consider Gen 9 worse, those games take the original concept and succesfully realize it in full 3D, they're fun and engaging, only real issue is that they're too complex for Game Freak's usual scope but they feel like a true evolution of the original world exploration in the first 4 gens.

Really selective... gen2 is loved and was huge in scope for that time, the animations where the third edition(yellow edition was not that special to). Gen 1 was such a refreshing and unique concept (not the monster catching mechanic in of itself, but HOW and the way it was just a normal part of the world). Gen 2 also refined the battle system, new types to balance, holding items, weather, shinies,...

3 did try some things, but it still tried to refine the battle system and added abilities, and was the first with double battles, the now quasi default format for competitive. but it sure was a lesser step of refinement then gen2. Here the graphics started to hang behind.

Gen 4 added the physical/special split that was really needed. But for sure looked way behind the curve.

Gen 5 was great for me, but it was not without its critics.

Gen 6: it was clear that most of the work did go into the 2d-3d transition for the battles. The game does not look like DS, at all. To crisp, and the battles would not have been possible, but the grid movement and chibi artstyle did evoke DS games.
Gen 7 had major complaints, that it has gotten to wordy and infantile, while trying to have major cut scenes. Sword had a ton of complaints that can't be put to the old ones (lack of dungeons, waaaay to linear routes, stuff happening literary of screen, soulless open plain,...), and 9 was a open world game with completely revamped structure ( and a ton of other problems) do the comparison does not work.

in the first gens you had more freedoms to get lost in the world. And you head dungeons. Later game exchanged those for more handholding and linearity and more story focus. That's a CLEAR difference, and to me comparable to some changes paper Mario did, moving from RPG to Adventure game.

---------------------

I think it's time to retry the first PM. Back then I thought ttyd is just more of that, let's see if I was wrong.

 

[carlosfilho]

I sometimes agree with Arlo, sometimes don't, but i'm genuinely happy for him. I'm a "coober" too, but a coober who has never played TTYD, so that makes the two of us happy. Can't wait to play this game

 

[chocolate_supra]

Stuff like this is why I really like Arlo:

 

[ziggyrivers]

I forgot to add something to the discussion:
• Change in Paper Mario

Change can be good or bad. But change is always warranted, especially in a video game. It’s why Pokemon adds to their formula every generation: to prevent it from becoming stale and not generate growth.

This is why Paper Mario has changed since TTYD: growth.

• Super introduced a much more massive storytelling and traditional Super Mario Bros gameplay

• Sticker Star focused on short bursts of game sessions because it was handheld

• Color Splash was an evolution of the SS gameplay

• Origami King is open-world, big storytelling and a sorta return to more traditional Paper Mario

This is why I get the series has changed so much. And I get it. Have I liked the changes? Some. Some less than others. I liked Super; Sticker not so much; Color I enjoyed; Origami I love.

I’ve accepted the change in the series, but am glad whenever they sorta go back to the two first games. I am HYPED to finally see TTYD back. I prefer that style versus the modern ones, but hope that, if a Paper Mario 3/TTYD 2 type of game comes out, they properly manage to evolve the TTYD gameplay because it’s what the series deserves: a proper evolution of that style of gameplay.

 

[chocolate_supra]

Spoiler: Unsolicited Paper Mario Opinion

I also think that classic Zelda fans are FAR more annoying and toxic than classic Paper Mario fans, BUT MOVING ON....

Spoiler

As someone who's both:

 

[Joe]

Stuff like this is why I really like Arlo:

That is legit good puppeteering, in all seriousness.

 

[Koren Lesthe]

Influencers... influence their public.

When Robert McYouTuber says countless time that Carboard Johnny game is bad, you quickly see John Doe McNeverPlayed who totally agree with this despite having never played said game. And then Robert McYouTuber keeps saying Carboard Johnny is bad when a new game is released and tries something new, so John Doe McNeverPlayed keeps eating the same shit and propagate the voice of Robert McYouTuber on social networks.

 

[EtherPenguin]

Spoiler: Unsolicited Paper Mario Opinion

In my opinion, the modern Paper Mario "hate" is blown way out of proportion and the classic Paper Mario fans aren't nearly as bad as people say they are. I don't blame the fans for being pissed off that the franchise they loved has completely changed, and I definitely don't blame them for being extremely happy the modern era of PM is seemingly dead for now. And I'm a big fan of Origami King and have never played the older games so I'm not biased here. The fanbase is finally happy. Let them be happy.

I also think that classic Zelda fans are FAR more annoying and toxic than classic Paper Mario fans, BUT MOVING ON....

There are fans of the original titles that don't wish for the new styles to fail. I don't think we need to push a narrative that modern PM is dead. A cool old game got remastered, we're just happy about that. It doesn't need to mean anything for the continuation of the series any more than it did when people were campaigning for Xenoblade DE to sell well to stick it to 2. Ultimately IS will make what they want to make.

 

[Abitante]

Imagine being on a videogame forum engaging in a serious discussion about a youtuber who uses a puppet to do the talk for him.

 

[Raccoon]

That is legit good puppeteering, in all seriousness.

yeah I hate what he says, but how he says it is dope

 

[browneyes84]

As someone who's only played the games in the franchise since Super Paper Mario, I'm looking forward to playing the TTYD remake, the game people won't shut up about, and for it to finally live up to all that overwhelming hype.

 

[Octavian]

I'd have to go back through his main LPs, but I don't think he does it all that often there.

In the Runaway Guys however, it comes up often enough that Proton Jon is just sick of it.

yeah chugga did an entire LP of the original Paper Mario and didn't bring up the new games once. he's making the essay series to put all his thoughts in one place

Imagine being on a videogame forum engaging in a serious discussion about a youtuber who uses a puppet to do the talk for him.

 

[Abitante]

I'm actually asking myself if you had this in your ready-to-use 'gatcha' image gallery or you did a not so quick research on google images just for the occasion.

 

[Semi Lazy Gamer]

I'd have to go back through his main LPs, but I don't think he does it all that often there.

In the Runaway Guys however, it comes up often enough that Proton Jon is just sick of it.

Remember this? Perfect timing on The Runaway Guys as their third upload after the Direct has Chuggaaconroy saying that Ring Fit Adventure is more Paper Mario than modern Paper Mario. Also has NintendoCapriSun singing it to the Magmoor Caverns theme.

Starts at 13:29:

 

[Chaos Theory]

As someone who is a fan of Sticker Star, no, I will talk shit about Arlo because I'm tired of being the fucking bad guy to an insane set of PM fans. I'm sorry Sticker Star is not the game you want. It doesn't excuse a near full decade of abuse that he refuses to acknowledge and even claim its fake. It was so bad I cannot even be happy about the damn TTYD announcement because of how worse its going to get. So no, I will talk shit about him all I want.

I mean let's be completely honest though, people like you are the problem. Paper Mario went a new direction for seemingly no real reason, abandoning its RPG roots in the process: it underperformed critically, it underperformed commercially, and most people hated it. The more competent elements of the fanbase tried to suggest Nintendo return to the old style, and somehow found themselves in the crosshairs of the 'Nintendo are right at all costs' faction. The whole situation got so hysterical that now apparently the happy puppet guy on YouTube has become enemy number 1, which is fucking ridiculous (but also quite funny).

And, surprise surprise, as is ALWAYS the case, Nintendo themselves are now clearly in the process of deciding to return to the old style, meaning that the people who spent the last few years attacking anyone for an alternative opinion are going to be caught in no-mans-land, and they know it, hence the threads such as these. We saw exactly the same people throw a fit when Nintendo admitted the TOTK marketing was off. These are the people that would cheer on Nintendo were they to announce that they were planning on selling the Zelda or Metroid IP to Microsoft. There's literally nothing you can do except work around them and hope the new 7/10 2D platformer shuts them up for a while. At this point I actually think that's why Nintendo still release them.

 

[doodlewhizz]

I mean let's be completely honest though, people like you are the problem. Paper Mario went a new direction for seemingly no real reason, abandoning its RPG roots in the process: it underperformed critically, it underperformed commercially, and most people hated it. The more competent elements of the fanbase tried to suggest Nintendo return to the old style, and somehow found themselves in the crosshairs of the 'Nintendo are right at all costs' faction. The whole situation got so hysterical that now apparently the happy puppet guy on YouTube has become enemy number 1, which is fucking ridiculous (but also quite funny).

And, surprise surprise, as is ALWAYS the case, Nintendo themselves are now clearly in the process of deciding to return to the old style, meaning that the people who spent the last few years attacking anyone for an alternative opinion are going to be caught in no-mans-land, and they know it, hence the threads such as these. We saw exactly the same people throw a fit when Nintendo admitted the TOTK marketing was off. These are the people that would cheer on Nintendo were they to announce that they were planning on selling the Zelda or Metroid IP to Microsoft. There's literally nothing you can do except work around them and hope the new 7/10 2D platformer shuts them up for a while. At this point I actually think that's why Nintendo still release them.

This is a very good way to just rile people up, suggesting that only 'competent' people didn't like the direction of the new games, and that anyone who does like them think Nintendo can do no wrong. Not even going to get into the conclusion that those people would also be happy with IPs being sold to Microsoft because that's just nonsense.

Anyway, I don't think a remake of an older game means that Nintendo is 'clearly' returning to the old style. Not saying they won't, but it'd be like saying Nintendo are clearly going back to the mission-based structure formula of Luigi's Mansion because they're remaking Dark Moon - that would be daft.