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Fun Club The Legend of Arlo Tears of the Influence.

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I genuinely feel like y'all need to just learn to just ignore things. Like no, Arlo isn't single handily responsible for the "bad Paper Mario discourse" the major shift in style within the IP is. Acting like his fans are some brainwashed cult is also, very reductive. Guy just has opinions, people agree with those opinions, sometimes blindly, but that's true for everyone who ever shares an opinion ever.
 
AngryAlchemist said:
The problem I have with Arlo is not the problem that I think most people have with him, which is that they don't like his negativity and criticism. My problem with Arlo is that he doesn't say anything. I'm not going to say that his old videos were great, because they weren't. But if you go back to around 2016 / 2017 when his channel was first getting big, he made very clear concise points for why he did or did not like something. Now you watch an Arlo video and half of it is him saying "that's a topic for another video!" and a point given once every 5 minutes, in a 20-30 minute video. And his points are usually bad to begin with, with terrible justifications for his takes. Also his specific need for games to be filled with lots of quantity of content, and his love for Pikmin 2, has been a disaster for the human race.

I will say that his Paper Mario "Mario committee" takes get a lot of flack on here, which I don't entirely understand. I remember reading a lot of the articles talked about and they did pretty much say newer Paper Mario did have restrictions at the time? If someone would like to explain (kindly, I don't have a rat in this race and am not an oldschool Paper Mario fan) I'd love to hear it.
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It’s not so much a committee but a guideline, some call it a mandate. It seems to have appeared sometime after Super Paper Mario/Mario Strikers Charged as those two were seen as too far for Nintendo. I think people give it flack due to it being really vague; we still can only infer what the guidelines are & still don’t really know what the leeway is. It wasn’t uncommon to see sentiment that Nintendo was gonna water down any remaster/remake of older Paper Mario games due to said guidelines.
 
Aether said:
I mean, Metroid fans are doing fine, im not sure "well fed" is the right wording, but they are doing fine for sure. Fire Emblem for sure is fine. But in regards to the 99 takes... it can be a good game on its own, but at the same time not even close to what people want from an F-Zero. Especially not a modern one.
Its the same with Tetris Fans (assuming no other tetris was on switch), or mario fans if Mario35 if mario was dead for a whole. Its a nice bonus, but its not a replacement.

and federation force had way more subsstance, it was just the wrong game at the wrong time. That argument could work here to.

(btw tried 99, its fun. im not a f-zero "fan", more a causal. i dont have a stake in this topic)

thats... pretty much it. only that he has an sizable audience.

well, if i say a dumb thing, a handful of people read/hear it, if arlo does, thousands of fans are like "you're totally right, they are at fault!". i think there is a slight difference.

But the hate he gets from some is ridiculous.
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That's not his problem though. He's not the president or a senator or a famous musician or author. He's a lower tier YouTuber. Anything can go viral nowadays for any reason. If he's not being a shithead who cares?
 
Comic Obsessed said:
Yeah, that's pretty much what Arlo would say.
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ok but lets be real here
regardless of how you feel about the series' changes, denying that they haven't been the primary and initial source of discourse would be delusional

arlo definitely popularized this but it has existed and will continue to exist for the foreseeable future
 
Hailinel said:
People have different reasons for preferring different Paper Mario games. Behaving as though TTYD (or any of the games) are holy scripture isn't healthy. And yes, that goes for how the art style is viewed, as well.
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what you say is true yes, but I’m not sure how that relates to Mango’s post
 
WestEgg said:
As long as his video stays up about how the developers made Origami King 'bad' specifically to spite 'real paper mario fans', I'll talk all the shit I want. I like most of his work, but nah, he gets called out for stupid stuff like that.
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I don't foresee Arlo ever taking a video down, but I wouldn't be surprised if his tune changes going forward. I do expect his perspective to shift somewhat, as getting a faithful TTYD remake flies in the face of some of his takes.

Raccoon said:
damn, Nintendo fans kind of suck huh

I'm guilty of it too I guess but when you put it like that

damn
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Most fans for anything suck eventually, it's just the way it goes. Nintendo has reached a spot where they have more beloved IPs than they can possibly sustain, and god forbid they want to take any in a new direction; that's led to even current Zelda discourse getting kinda toxic at times.

I'm not blaming Nintendo for it, it's just expected due to how people in general behave.

Hailinel said:
It was the context of the chain of replies.
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You seem to have taken the 'anyone with eyes' comment to be a slight at the current visual style of Paper Mario, but I don't believe either poster meant anything other than the fact that the style of the gameplay itself has very obviously changed.
 
Regarding Arlo's role in the current state of Paper Mario discourse, I agree with the notion that he's the current face of a sentiment that existed well before his channel started. The notion that Nintendo needs to get back to "real" Paper Mario has existed since Super Paper Mario, ironically now part of the "good three" (though often still separated from the original two). Sticker Star exacerbated this by losing even more traditional Paper Mario elements than it brought back from SPM (after it appeared to be returning to the traditional style in its original teaser), and generally being regarded as a poor game on its own merits. Arlo wasn't really getting big until Color Splash was entering the picture, and by that point the internet narratives of the Mario Mandate and Miyamoto personally ruining Sticker Star already existed. These things were popular before Arlo.

He may have made the discourse a little more prominent, but frankly I recall seeing it all over well before I ever heard of him. I don't think it's fair to blame him for the status quo of Paper Mario takes; most of them are him parroting stuff that's older than his channel. It is fair to call out the more asinine aspects of his takes, of course; I just don't see him as the reason everyone talks about Paper Mario the way they do, which is a reason I see people say they hate him sometimes.
 
Magic-Man said:
That's not his problem though. He's not the president or a senator or a famous musician or author. He's a lower tier YouTuber. Anything can go viral nowadays for any reason. If he's not being a shithead who cares?
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i sad the hate for him is to big. i also sad i was subscribed and am not because i think he does not deliver anymore as a content creator for me. I also think that some of those takes where somewhat toxic, even if they where not meant to be, leading to some people regurgitating the points.
Overall he is just a content creator, but as a public figure i am as much allowed to criticise him as any other public youtube figure.

If he can bring fans to reiterate his bad takes, then it is on him, he thought the takes are good enough to be pushed out and stood for. If i say something stupid in private, people hold me accountable. why should it be different if i say something stupid in public as a c tire youtuber?

Again, the hate is overwhelmingly stupid, i feel like most just don't like him and try to position him worse then he is. There is no "im not responsible for what my fans do" only works if you message against the thing they do, and if its not a direct response to something you say.
 
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Jersh said:
Regarding Arlo's role in the current state of Paper Mario discourse, I agree with the notion that he's the current face of a sentiment that existed well before his channel started. The notion that Nintendo needs to get back to "real" Paper Mario has existed since Super Paper Mario, ironically now part of the "good three" (though often still separated from the original two). Sticker Star exacerbated this by losing even more traditional Paper Mario elements than it brought back from SPM (after it appeared to be returning to the traditional style in its original teaser), and generally being regarded as a poor game on its own merits. Arlo wasn't really getting big until Color Splash was entering the picture, and by that point the internet narratives of the Mario Mandate and Miyamoto personally ruining Sticker Star already existed. These things were popular before Arlo.

He may have made the discourse a little more prominent, but frankly I recall seeing it all over well before I ever heard of him. I don't think it's fair to blame him for the status quo of Paper Mario takes; most of them are him parroting stuff that's older than his channel. It is fair to call out the more asinine aspects of his takes, of course; I just don't see him as the reason everyone talks about Paper Mario the way they do, which is a reason I see people say they hate him sometimes.
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Oh the point was from earlier, but im not sure if it was not an interviews out of context. i think it was the iwata asks for sticker star, not confident with that and not motivated to check it.

people picked it up and ran with it.
 
I have the capacity to not agree with and find a lot of his opinions just straight up wrong and bad, while still enjoying most of his videos.

Feel like there's never enough nuance in these types of discussions though lol
 
Aether said:
Oh the point was from earlier, but im not sure if it was not an interviews out of context. i think it was the iwata asks for sticker star, not confident with that and not motivated to check it.

people picked it up and ran with it.
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It was mainly the Iwata Asks when things got really bad, yes. Particularly these quotes:
Tanabe said:
Aside from wanting us to change the atmosphere a lot, there were two main things that Miyamoto-san said from the start of the project—"It's fine without a story, so do we really need one?" and "As much as possible, complete it with only characters from the Super Mario world.
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Tanabe said:
After E3, Miyamoto-san played the prototype and said it was just a port of the GC version.
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These quotes led a lot of people to feel Miyamoto was both out of touch with what the fans wanted and making hard requirements for the series. But they ignore other things from the interview, like this exchange:

Iwata: That project came together because of that idea. Kudo-san, you were in charge of the script, so what did you think about whether a story was really necessary or not?

Kudo: I originally saw it in a way that's similar to Miyamoto-san. Personally I think all we need is to have an objective to win the boss battle at the end of the game. I didn't think we necessarily needed a lengthy story like in an RPG. Instead, we looked at the characteristics of a portable game that can be played little by little in small pieces and packed in lots of little episodes and ideas. I always did like putting in little ideas, so I actually enjoyed it.

Iwata: It was just what Kudo-san wanted.

Kudo: Yeah.
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The guy in charge of the script was happy with reduction in the scope of the story. It's also noteworthy that it's not the same staff from the previous games in the first place:

Tanabe: In that respect, this project started with a near complete renewal of the staff.

Nakajima: A few programmers continued on in order to make use of previous assets, but in planning and design, about 90% were participating for the first time.
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This was a fresh team, not the same IS crew pitching another Paper Mario and being asked to make radical changes. Their ideas were their own.

But that's all a little more nuanced, so I see why it was missed. Miyamoto's statements are a more in-your-face explanation as to what happened, but it's far from the complete picture.
 
Jersh said:
It was mainly the Iwata Asks when things got really bad, yes. Particularly these quotes:



These quotes led a lot of people to feel Miyamoto was both out of touch with what the fans wanted and making hard requirements for the series. But they ignore other things from the interview, like this exchange:


The guy in charge of the script was happy with reduction in the scope of the story. It's also noteworthy that it's not the same staff from the previous games in the first place:


This was a fresh team, not the same IS crew pitching another Paper Mario and being asked to make radical changes. Their ideas were their own.

But that's all a little more nuanced, so I see why it was missed. Miyamoto's statements are a more in-your-face explanation as to what happened, but it's far from the complete picture.
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Tanabe also links the game design of Sticker Star to the DS Tingle games, which he made with Kudo. They attempted to get rid of the classic "fight enemies -> get money and exp" formula. It's something they clearly wanted to explore.

Also, let's say it -- another game with the Paper Mario 64/TTYD gameplay, and the formula would have become stale, just like the OoT formula became stale with TP. TTYD was already derivative of PM64. The problem is not that they replaced the formula but that they replaced something which worked with something else that didn't. Plus, the characters.
 
I think it's important to not forget that for a case like Arlo, and Chuggaconroy too, have audiences that probably skew a lot more on the younger side, even when compared to typical Nintendo youtuber watching audiences. Kids/teens who are both impressionable and too young to have experienced lots of Nintendo's history, ups and downs alike.

I think we already see lots of revisionist history and skewed perspectives based on younger kids just listening to influencers and having their opinion be their only point of view, but that's kinda the case everywhere now not just with gaming.
 
chocolate_supra said:
I just realized how much I'd love a legit Muppets game with the Henson team's involvement. Can't even think of what genre they could fit into but if they nailed the satirical humor and got the felt textures just right it could be one for the ages.

Yall I'd seriously be down for this, not even joking.
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Well, we got Dark Crystal Tactics...
 
Hailinel said:
Did that actually release? I remember the series aired and then Netflix pulled a Netflix on it.
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Yea, it came out quietly in 2020 to mixed-negative reviews three years after being announced. The Netflix show was legit good though and I'm so sad it was apparently an "expensive disappointment".

edit: 59 on metacritic, I guess more mixed than negative
 
I don't always like Arlo opinions, I even actively dislike its bad faith or double standards sometimes, but his passion in general is clearly what make me likes him a lot as a content creator at large. I mean, when the Paper Mario remake was announced, the first thing I was thinking about was litterally that I was looking forward to see Arlo's reaction and happy about how much happy he will be, event thought I personally feel that his legitimate love for this great game makes him really annoying sometimes.
 
Being an Arlo fan is funny because I'm not a paper mario fan, played PM64 when I was a kid, started playing it again when it released on NSO, never got around to play TTYD... and I haven't really played any other Paper Mario game ever.

I find many of his opinions to be agreeable, especially regarding Pokemon, Zelda BOTW/TOTK, Non-PM Mario games, and even about Nintendo in general (did y'all remember how he accurately predicted Charles Martinet was retiring?). And while his opinions of Paper Mario are definitely stronger and more biased than his usual content, I don't think those invalidate all his good/agreeable takes in everything else.

Besides, he is one of the extremely few youtubers that I'm 100% certain are not resposible for any controversies or drama within their fandoms. He is usually assertive but respectful with his opinions, he doesn't call out anyone (except Miyamoto LOL) and he says repeatedly he will never invalidate anyone for disagreeing with him. It's as diplomatic as a influencer can be in this era of cheap-youtuber-drama-for-clicks.
 
The controversy of his opinions aside, His Metroid Dread reaction is one of the best if not the best reactions on the internet.
 
I'm pretty sure the Thousand Year Door remake exists to placate the paper mobs when Nintendo releases a new Paper Mario that's a tactical RPG. It'll have actual partner characters, though, so it's cool.

I'm not sure the remake means all that much unless it sells in numbers that cannot be ignored, and even then the team might have other plans.
 
Glom said:
Arlo has managed to become a mascot to the subculture for a number of franchises to the point that a discussion about news for those franchises can't happen without someone making it all about Arlo.
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One of these days, I'll become a prolific cult figure.



chocolate_supra said:
I just realized how much I'd love a legit Muppets game with the Henson team's involvement. Can't even think of what genre they could fit into but if they nailed the satirical humor and got the felt textures just right it could be one for the ages.

Yall I'd seriously be down for this, not even joking.
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The Muppets' Star Fox Adventures.

Sonic and his Muppet Friends.



Hailinel said:
People have different reasons for preferring different Paper Mario games. Behaving as though TTYD (or any of the games) are holy scripture isn't healthy. And yes, that goes for how the art style is viewed, as well.
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Yeah, that squares with the text of Mango's post. The series' trajectory and design ethos changed, which gives people these myriad different reasons for preferring one or the other; while untold numbers of people don't garner our attention in these matters, at least to any particular extent, we do end up with combinations of people who take the situation and tastes very personally as well as the result of confirmation bias, wherein people will find "authorities" who say what they already think.

That's not to say, though, that these more extreme behaviors are healthy, but the internet in its current form will endeavor to highlight that and give it a presence.

I'd also note that none of this means there aren't also people who hear the talking points and just accept them, but I think the point might be that the situation exists regardless and the search for a bias confirming authority would have found and lifted someone up eventually.
 
Honestly, a sort of small part of me wants Nintendo/IS to just make a sequel to Origami King, but remove most of the combat. Two reasons why. One, Origami King is a great adventure game, but not a great RPG. Secondly, it would piss off Paper Mario fans.

But legitimately, I would not mind a sequel that plays similarly to TOK; The presentation, writing, and world are top notch. I found the regular battles interesting enough and loved the bosses. I would like a future game to have a different combat system though; for novelty's sake, I guess.
 
MMXZero said:
I mean you can literally group the Fire Emblem, Metroid and F-Zero fanbase into this comment after today's Direct.
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Lol what? Those fanbases are nowhere near as excruciating to hear as Paper Mario fans are. Paper Mario fans are the worst subgroup of Nintendo fans.

besides smash
 
  • Prime remastered
  • Pikmin 1+2 remaster
  • Pikmin 4
  • Metroid Dread
  • 2 Banger 3D Zelda games
  • Prime 4
  • Thousand year door remake
Literally all we need is a new paper Mario in the style of the classic games and prime 4 to release and Arlo has gotten EVERYTHING he wants this generation
 
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Supreme Overlord said:
I'm pretty sure the Thousand Year Door remake exists to placate the paper mobs when Nintendo releases a new Paper Mario that's a tactical RPG. It'll have actual partner characters, though, so it's cool.

I'm not sure the remake means all that much unless it sells in numbers that cannot be ignored, and even then the team might have other plans.
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Usually I would agree with you, but why would nintendo remake 2 classic Mario RPGs if they had no intention of bringing back the classic style? What business sense does that make
 
bellydrum said:
Lol what? Those fanbases are nowhere near as excruciating to hear as Paper Mario fans are. Paper Mario fans are the worst subgroup of Nintendo fans.

besides smash
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Joy-Boy said:
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this seems pretty out of date to me

rhythm heaven should be in "bitter but righteous," donkey kong in "consumed by spite," and splatoon in "more beasts than men"

paper mario has a chance to enter "gluttons who would not be satisfied with all the riches of heaven" depending on how the prerelease cycle of the remake goes

also based on my experience I'd put the mother people in "quietly tolerable" (or maybe even "the dead do not trouble the living")
 
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bellydrum said:
Lol what? Those fanbases are nowhere near as excruciating to hear as Paper Mario fans are. Paper Mario fans are the worst subgroup of Nintendo fans.

besides smash
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I'd swear there's more whining about Paper Mario fans these days than actual insufferable Paper Mario fans lol. Especially since TOK, where even a lot of old-style fans appreciated that game's quality on it's own merits.
 
I'd imagine the massive shift in style and the decline in quality that many felt the series went through probably has something to do with Paper Mario fans being loud and negative/toxic.

Edit: also as much fun as I have dunking on Smash fans, no fanbase is perfect or innocent. People are people, no need to generalize imo.
 
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We haven't delved into true madness until our focus is the Eternal Darkness.

Also, this Arlo feller can't truly represent the 'Cube unless he's fanatical about this darkness eternal. I suspect y'all are overhyping this one.
 
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Paxie said:
I think the reason Arlo specifically gets so much hate is mostly because his talking points are used as fuel for an internet war. He'd be an ignorable YouTuber with a weird gimmick otherwise, but Paper Mario discourse of all things has become very Star Wars-esque (without the bigotry [I hope]) with the level of toxicity thrown around over a kids franchise
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Paper Mario becoming an actual political culture war lightning rod like Star Wars movies became would be a fucking nightmare lmao.
 
Mango said:
I'd imagine the massive shift in style and the decline in quality that many felt the series went through probably has something to do with Paper Mario fans being loud and negative/toxic.

Edit: also as much fun as I have dunking on Smash fans, no fanbase is perfect or innocent. People are people, no need to generalize imo.
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I don't care if shitty annoying people feel like they have a reason, I'll still feel like they're shitty and annoying
 
Yeah, it’s more of a win for GameCube nostalgia. And for Nintendo moving away from the NSMB-era conservatism around the Mario IP, which really phased in around Odyssey’s release.
 
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TBF, for some, I feel like it’s somewhat tongue in cheek. On my end, I can’t say I think much of or hold any particular dislike of the guy per-say. I just thought some of his arguments were either conspiratorial or just assumptions based solely off of his preferences so I just stopped watching him
 
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