The Future of Final Fantasy, discussion thread

[PixelKnight]

I'm not sure I'd call this a good place. Theirs a distinct lack of new and varied games that grow the audience. All the new games are far in-between and what fills the gaps are remakes.

Does FF really need quite so many ’new and varied’ games though? A goal of ‘grow the audience through new and varied spin-offs in between the big games’ needs to balance against the risk of brand fatigue, and there’s a shedload of FF stuff about.

I also don’t think the remakes are necessarily a bad thing when, for example, the FFVII remake series is so different from the original in almost every way outside of main story beats. It’s hard to say that isn’t a ‘new’ game. It’s more a ‘completely new reimagining of the same story (that was a bit of a confusing mess for much of the western audience first time around anyway)’ than a ‘remake’. When you’ve got the MMOs, FFXVI and the FFVII remake series, that’s still a hell of a lot of FF about.

Personally I hope the FFIX remake is a very different style to the FFVII one. 25 years of game design and advancing technology later, these are very different games (for better or worse!) to the originals that a huge chunk of new console owners won’t have played.

 

[Josh5890]

I'm not sure I'd call this a good place. Theirs a distinct lack of new and varied games that grow the audience. All the new games are far in-between and what fills the gaps are remakes.

The new mainline games are always going to be far apart. That is just game development in the year of our lord, 2023. The days of getting a trilogy of Final Fantasy games on the same system is long gone.

Square just released the best received mainline game since the PS2 days. Their MMO is as popular as ever. Remake was widely loved and Rebirth looks even better three months out. Nintendo is about to release the Switch 2, which I'm sure that Square will want to use for more experimental stuff. It's hard to not be excited for the future of Final Fantasy right now.

 

[ziggyrivers]

I’d like to propose something:
• Maybe FF has reached a ceiling and it has a limited audience?

Not every video game is for everyone, and not every game will be Zelda BOTW: explode in popularity and elevate the franchise to never before seen levels.

I’m sure Square can make a BOTW ish sort of FF game, but it doesnt mean it’ll be as explosive as BOTW

 

[ILikeFeet]

I’d like to propose something:
• Maybe FF has reached a ceiling and it has a limited audience?

Not every video game is for everyone, and not every game will be Zelda BOTW: explode in popularity and elevate the franchise to never before seen levels.

I’m sure Square can make a BOTW ish sort of FF game, but it doesnt mean it’ll be as explosive as BOTW

considering FF16 is a contraction over the last game, I don't think it hit the ceiling at all. following up what people like about FF15 is the next logical step

 

[ziggyrivers]

considering FF16 is a contraction over the last game, I don't think it hit the ceiling at all. following up what people like about FF15 is the next logical step

They should first aim for multiplatform and a bigger marketing budget

 

[shoptroll]

Short of the PSP Dissidia games, what else is left to do in the re-release pipeline? Mystic Quest and Dimensions?

 

[soundchaser]

Short of the PSP Dissidia games, what else is left to do in the re-release pipeline? Mystic Quest and Dimensions?

Dirge of Cerberus (and offline versions of some of their mobile titles like Mobius Final Fantasy (please))

 

[Josh5890]

Short of the PSP Dissidia games, what else is left to do in the re-release pipeline? Mystic Quest and Dimensions?

The XIII trilogy could still be ported to modern consoles. Maybe IV or VI gets the 2D-HD treatment.

I wouldn't mind a new Tactics game. I doubt Square is going to go all out on a new one though.

 

[ziggyrivers]

Sorry for the bump, didn’t know where to post this:

 

[ILikeFeet]

Sorry for the bump, didn’t know where to post this:

this long road should be coming to an end, finally

 

[ziggyrivers]

this long road should be coming to an end, finally

I wonder how the remake will be? Not a very detailed graphic intense project and every disc is in a single game?

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

I wonder how the remake will be? Not a very detailed graphic intense project and every disc is in a single game?

FF9 is the worst selling mainline Final Fantasy in the last 29 years so probably not.

It will be super interesting to see the game though.

Questions for the game

1. How graphically intensive is it?
2. What gameplay systems do they use?
3. Discs 3 and 4 are awful story wise, how much do they change?
4. How much work do they put into the mini games?
5. The first 15-20 hours have very little combat, do they add more in the remake?
6. Do they make the levels larger in the remake?

But the FF9 references are because of FF9 content in the new expansion.

Wouldn’t be surprised at all if FF9R has been cancelled.

Just don’t know what dev could make this game.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

The new mainline games are always going to be far apart. That is just game development in the year of our lord, 2023. The days of getting a trilogy of Final Fantasy games on the same system is long gone.

Considering it's not like the old days where each title used a lot of the same staff from the previous titles, it's not like they couldn't have 10 teams working on different numbered FFs in parallel if they really thought having more major releases was a good idea.

But the FF9 references are because of FF9 content in the new expansion.

I thought the FF9 content in the expansion was the references being discussed?

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Considering it's not like the old days where each title used a lot of the same staff from the previous titles, it's not like they couldn't have 10 teams working on different numbered FFs in parallel if they really thought having more major releases was a good idea.

I thought the FF9 content in the expansion was the references being discussed?

No, there's probably an entire FF9 hub too.

New FFXIV player hub Solution Nine is a wink and nod to Final Fantasy IX

What happened to Solution One through Eight?

www.destructoid.com

 

[ziggyrivers]

1. How graphically intensive is it?

Personally, I'm on the boat that thinks that FINAL FANTASY VII getting the treatment it got was because of how unique and important the Compilation is to Square Enix. I don't think future remakes will share the same endeavor.

2. What gameplay systems do they use?

I feel like something like ATB maybe, or since we already have an ATB FFIX game (FF9 HD), then maybe Remake's gameplay?

3. Discs 3 and 4 are awful story wise, how much do they change?

Good point

4. How much work do they put into the mini games?

Were there mini games besides the Triple Triad?

Wouldn’t be surprised at all if FF9R has been cancelled.

Yeah, maybe it wasn't even in development when the hack happened

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Chocobo Hot and Cold is really prominent and important in FF9. With Ozma locked behind completing it.

 

[thoughthaver]

when's squares next earnings call. we're weeks in and still no rebirth numbers, I'm gonna assume shit must have bombed if they are staying this quiet

 

[JorgenRaft]

It's one of the best selling games in February for US/UK so "bombed" would be pretty unlikely despite Square's frequent overestimations for their projections. Not every country mirrors Japan.

 

[Tailzo]

I still haven't bought Final Fantasy XVI. I just do not feel the games have interesting characters and cool stories anymore.

 

[ziggyrivers]

Remaster the first one, tho

 

[Dardan Sandiego]

Final Fantasy 16 Successfully Expanded the Series to New, Younger Players, Says Square Enix

Hot topic

www.pushsquare.com

Interesting tidbit. Probably not enough data to make any definite statements but I wouldn’t be surprised if the audience on Steam skews even younger.

 

[JazzPotatoes]

It's good that out of the people surveyed they've got more young gamers buying in than previous games, but given the lack of sales milestones or PR released, I'm still not holding my breath that overall sales are much better than they were previously. We'll see, I guess

 

[Dardan Sandiego]

It's good that out of the people surveyed they've got more young gamers buying in than previous games, but given the lack of sales milestones or PR released, I'm still not holding my breath that overall sales are much better than they were previously. We'll see, I guess

The series seeing a decline in sales is pretty much a fact by now. But a larger portion among the people that bought them being younger gamers is a positive.

 

[rickyson33]

The series seeing a decline in sales is pretty much a fact by now. But a larger portion among the people that bought them being younger gamers is a positive.

essentially trading longer term fans that are probably more likely to buy future titles for newer probably more fickle players kinda sounds like a negative to me to be honest, like ideally you'd want both but if I had to pick i'd prefer people that have bought games from me before over an equal amount of people that never have and could very easily go away as quickly as they arrived(especially with how often Final Fantasy as a series switches things up)

edit: although to be fair I am making a lot of assumptions here from very little actual information

 

[Dardan Sandiego]

essentially trading longer term fans that are probably more likely to buy future titles for newer probably more fickle players kinda sounds like a negative to me to be honest, like ideally you'd want both but if I had to pick i'd prefer people that have bought games from me before over an equal amount of people that never have and could very easily go away as quickly as they arrived(especially with how often Final Fantasy as a series switches things up)

edit: although to be fair I am making a lot of assumptions here from very little actual information

You can't really sell to the same audience that has been playing your games since the 90s forever either. Those are people in their 30s to 40s who will eventually grow out of gaming altogether. We don't really know what the long-term effects of this will be but they absolutely have to get new younger people into the series if they want it to continue.

 

[Djehuty]

The series seeing a decline in sales is pretty much a fact by now. But a larger portion among the people that bought them being younger gamers is a positive.

Very positive, I hope rebirth also got that but I’m more doubtful due to its nature as a remake.

 

[Djehuty]

essentially trading longer term fans that are probably more likely to buy future titles for newer probably more fickle players kinda sounds like a negative to me to be honest, like ideally you'd want both but if I had to pick i'd prefer people that have bought games from me before over an equal amount of people that never have and could very easily go away as quickly as they arrived(especially with how often Final Fantasy as a series switches things up)

edit: although to be fair I am making a lot of assumptions here from very little actual information

Look at Zelda, spat in the face of old fans to get a new bigger fanbase.

It’s not always a negative to lose old fans if the gains in new fans are large.

 

[JazzPotatoes]

Look at Zelda, spat in the face of old fans to get a new bigger fanbase.

It’s not always a negative to lose old fans if the gains in new fans are large.

I think "spat in the face" is a bit of a loaded term.

The BotW devs made it crystal clear they were going back to the NES Zelda for inspiration.

 

[Christo750]

Wanted to share this here, probably kind of relevant.



I've played a LOT of Final Fantasy in the last full year and tbh FF7 ReBirth is the closest thing the series has come to its BOTW moment. It has a lot of fundamental problems and it's very checklist-y, but I feel like Square stumbled onto something that people can probably get behind. Make a new story, with a new world and characters, and call it FF17, you probably have a decent shot at big-time success.

ReBirth trending behind Remake isn't that surprising to me but I don't agree with people calling out it's exclusivity. Feels like the only way it can exist on the level it does is being exclusive, funded by Sony, etc. I'd imagine it probably made most of its money back by now, and a PC port (be it EGS or Steam) will give it another shot in the arm. I'm just surprised by (and respect tbh) what the direction of this FF7 Remake Project actually is, that they'd go through with making what are probably such expensive games. It's a huge gamble that's likely not going to pay off.

 

[ziggyrivers]

Yeah, Square should reutilize the Rebirth engine and make an original FF game, which I imagine is the next step for the remake project’s director after finishing Part III

 

[Lugia667]

lmao Zelda "Spat in the face of fans"

give me a break

 

[DittoM]

Look at Zelda, spat in the face of old fans to get a new bigger fanbase.

It’s not always a negative to lose old fans if the gains in new fans are large.

"Spat in the face of old fans," give me a break. Are we really gonna act like the majority of fans of the classic formula didn't also like the new direction?

Anyways, to stay on topic, in response to that report I have to wonder if Final Fantasy fans realize how crazy the FFVII series looks to outsiders. They’re remaking a PS1 game, but it’s three parts over 8 years for $70 for each part. For a lot of people you can really only cash in on nostalgia once, and spending over $200 for the full story is a big ask.

And they’re not even really remakes but more weird sequel things (at least that’s what I heard given Remake’s reception). You have the baggage of not only needing to play Remake, but also being familiar with a 25 year old PS1 game. Hard to grow an audience with that.

As someone who probably skews much younger than everyone here, Final Fantasy just doesn’t have much cultural relevance to the younger generation. If someone talks to me about a JRPG they’re playing, it’s either Persona, Genshin Impact, or Xenoblade. Final Fantasy never comes up. I can’t give a good reason for why that is, but if I had to guess I truly think it’s because the series is stuck being locked to PS5. Putting the game on Steam would really help broaden its appeal in my opinion.

It also doesn’t help that all of the most well received games in the series other than Rebirth came out before I was born lol. There just really isn’t a Final Fantasy game for my generation to really grow up playing and loving like there was back in the SNES and PS1 days other than maybe XIV, which is its own thing.

 

[PixelKnight]

Look at Zelda, spat in the face of old fans to get a new bigger fanbase.

It’s not always a negative to lose old fans if the gains in new fans are large.

What Zelda and FF have in common is that their longevity is down to changing things up on a regular basis, and that one subset of regular players will claim that they’ve been abandoned. It’s completely natural for such series to have a fractured fanbase where many people have a different favourite, but to claim it’s an intentional, spiteful attack on fans for a director, studio and developers to do something new and fresh with a massive creative project in a series that’s been running for the best part of 40 years is ridiculous.

 

[Djehuty]

I think "spat in the face" is a bit of a loaded term.

The BotW devs made it crystal clear they were going back to the NES Zelda for inspiration.

It’s loaded cause it’s true,

NES Zelda wasn’t Zelda identity, after alltp it found its formula.

Botw Bassicaly threw every thing out from it.

Which isn’t a problem cause hey it worked out.
But if you’re a fan of old Zelda tough luck , anouma said he has no idea why people would want Zelda games like that again.

It returned to its roots and reevaluated them in a modern context.

 

[Djehuty]

What Zelda and FF have in common is that their longevity is down to changing things up on a regular basis, and that one subset of regular players will claim that they’ve been abandoned. It’s completely natural for such series to have a fractured fanbase where many people have a different favourite, but to claim it’s an intentional, spiteful attack on fans for a director, studio and developers to do something new and fresh with a massive creative project in a series that’s been running for the best part of 40 years is ridiculous.

I guess my slang is differnt from yours, here it just means do something differently,

Look at something and then walk the opposite direction of it.

Look at expectations and defy them Bassically

 

[PixelKnight]

I guess my slang is differnt from yours, here it just means do something differently,

Look at something and then walk the opposite direction of it.

Look at expectations and defy them Bassically

… that’s your definition of ‘spit in the face of fans’? That it only meant to look at them and walk away without any kind of negative connotations of an attack, an insult, derision? Wow. Where’s that slang from then?

 

[soundchaser]

If BOTW and ToTK are spitting in my face (I've been a Zelda fan since the GameBoy), then I have a lot to learn about spit or myself.

 

[Steve]

Look at Zelda, spat in the face of old fans to get a new bigger fanbase.

It’s not always a negative to lose old fans if the gains in new fans are large.

I mean most people thought the same way when Windwaker released and Nintendo were spitting at fans by making it in their words ,,a game for little babies’’

It’s part of the usual Zelda cycle and when the next Zelda game arrive people will say that the new one ruined the formula and it should have been more like Totk.

 

[Dardan Sandiego]

The Future of The Legend of Zelda, discussion thread

 

[soundchaser]

The Future of The Legend of Zelda, discussion thread

If FF7: Rebirth is spitting in my face...

 

[palemire]

The Legend of Zelda: Spit of the Kingdom

 

[JazzPotatoes]

The Zelda fanbase's reaction to being spat in the face

 

[ziggyrivers]

I'm surprised no one's posted that Nintendo spat on us twice because the second one was DLC...

 

[Síriocaz]

The Zelda fanbase's reaction to being spat in the face

Well, when Zelda figuratively looks like that, it's hard to react in any other way, ye'know...

 

[Djehuty]

botw is the best zelda game, but im not gonna pretend some fans aren't twisting them self into a not saying why the old games are better and botw sucks,

theres a pretty sizable sub dedicated to just that.


either way. the old fans don't matter as much as new fans when you are trying to grow a series and reinvention is needed, and FF has not reinvented itself much.
it refreshes itself yes, and changes combat. but there's never been a big shakeup in how the games play out, you know what you expect from final fantasy and what you expect is pretty much what you get.

i think they should look back not at why people like the old games today but why they took off back then.
what did they do differently from other games, and how can they reacheive that feeling. that FF is more than a very good rpg, but something that redefines what it means to be an rpg.

if you want a big game that will sell 10's of millions of copies coming from a smaller ip than thats what you're going to need to do, thats what zelda did, and world did and elden ring did. if they want a succes on par with those they have to do the same thing.

they half tried this with 16 when they kind of changed it to somethign resembing a hack and slash game.

if you want that success you cant just repeat the same ideas in new contexts, but create new ideas entirly.

FF has long since fallen behind as a market leader in terms of new gameplay ideas. while they introduce new combat and new in gneeral eveything every game nothing is truly innovative or ever ends up leaving a mark on other games or rpgs, not since 9. wildly differnt from the 1-9 days, when they were always the ones introducing new things to the genre.

a great game can only take you so far. especially when you limti yourself to one console. you need a revolutioanry game if you want a hardcore ip to sell that well.

 

[PixelKnight]

botw is the best zelda game, but im not gonna pretend some fans aren't twisting them self into a not saying why the old games are better and botw sucks,

theres a pretty sizable sub dedicated to just that.


either way. the old fans don't matter as much as new fans when you are trying to grow a series and reinvention is needed, and FF has not reinvented itself much.
it refreshes itself yes, and changes combat. but there's never been a big shakeup in how the games play out, you know what you expect from final fantasy and what you expect is pretty much what you get.

i think they should look back not at why people like the old games today but why they took off back then.
what did they do differently from other games, and how can they reacheive that feeling. that FF is more than a very good rpg, but something that redefines what it means to be an rpg.

if you want a big game that will sell 10's of millions of copies coming from a smaller ip than thats what you're going to need to do, thats what zelda did, and world did and elden ring did. if they want a succes on par with those they have to do the same thing.

they half tried this with 16 when they kind of changed it to somethign resembing a hack and slash game.

if you want that success you cant just repeat the same ideas in new contexts, but create new ideas entirly.

FF has long since fallen behind as a market leader in terms of new gameplay ideas. while they introduce new combat and new in gneeral eveything every game nothing is truly innovative or ever ends up leaving a mark on other games or rpgs, not since 9. wildly differnt from the 1-9 days, when they were always the ones introducing new things to the genre.

a great game can only take you so far. especially when you limti yourself to one console. you need a revolutioanry game if you want a hardcore ip to sell that well.

just on ‘when did FF last leave a mark on other games’, I’d say FFX did- LotR: The Third Age in 2004 was a huge licensed game of the biggest film series at the time and famously copies a lot from it’s combat system.

They explained that rather than the hack and slash nature of the previous two games in the franchise, The Third Age, as it was now officially called, would be a turn-based RPG, with gameplay similar to that of Final Fantasy X and Final Fantasy X-2.

The game received mixed reviews. Most reviewers praised the graphics and visuals, but there were criticisms of the story and character development, and some felt the game was somewhat too derivative of Final Fantasy X.

The Lord of the Rings: The Third Age - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

FFXII’s combat has influenced games too, it’s gambit system for programming computer-controlled ally moves as a flow chart to a near infinite degree cropped up in Dragon Age and then again most recently in Unicorn Overlord.

FFXIII, in comparison, largely just felt like it was just following the trends of PS360 linear action games of the time rather than forging it’s own path, but it’s hard to say it’s paradigm combat system wasn't introducing something new- it just hasn’t been as influential
or imitated to such a precise degree. Even then, plenty of rpgs since have used a ‘party role and position in a formation changes what they can/cant do’ concept, just much more loosely and not the ‘party members act on their own once role is assigned’. I think I last saw it in Legend of Legacy.

 

[Dardan Sandiego]

Rebirth seems like a pretty significant step into the right direction in terms of gameplay, world structure and variety but is almost assuredly held back by being a sequel, a partial remake, not really a remake, and part of a convoluted multimedia compilation of media spanning close to three decades. If you aren't already part of the core target audience for it, it looks extremely uninviting and I feel they were never able to shake off this image. I constantly see people even in enthusiast spaces who believe that you first need to play several games and watch a movie for Rebirth to make sense which seems like a pretty big marketing failure.

 

[Regulus Tera]

I cannot post it because apparently I’m blocked by him, but Jeff Grub confirmed on Twitter that Pikmin 4 has sold more than Rebirth, which I wish were something I could show sales thread aficionados back in the 2000s.

 

[ziggyrivers]

I cannot post it because apparently I’m blocked by him, but Jeff Grub confirmed on Twitter that Pikmin 4 has sold more than Rebirth, which I wish were something I could show sales thread aficionados back in the 2000s.

Ah, the proper growth of a franchise

 

[afternoon delight]

Jeff Grub confirmed on Twitter that Pikmin 4 has sold more than Rebirth,

Incredible news!!!!

Edit: I’m old enough to be soured by the transition to the PS2 FF entries, and if Square ever decides to revisit their best aspect (Tactics) I’ll be interested- but everything since FF9 has literally been skippable to me, I watch at a friends’ or neighbors’ house for an afternoon maybe and thank the stars I don’t spend money on FF games.

7 Remake fooled me once with its “not a remake” gimmick, so they can fuck right off with that whole decade-plus project of theirs too.

Whatever! I have no shortage of JRPGs and adjascents to play.