TheMindOfThomas
Kalosian
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Octopath feels more like a continuation of the SNES era, especially with the HD-2D pixel art. I’m talking more along the lines of the original FF7 but with a more modernized look.
-
Hey everyone, staff have documented a list of banned content and subject matter that we feel are not consistent with site values, and don't make sense to host discussion of on Famiboards. This list (and the relevant reasoning per item) is viewable here.
-
Do you have audio editing experience and want to help out with the Famiboards Discussion Club Podcast? If so, we're looking for help and would love to have you on the team! Just let us know in the Podcast Thread if you are interested!
The Future of Final Fantasy, discussion thread
- Thread starter SpaceGodzilla
- Start date
EggmaniMN
Shriekbat
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I love watching people say the series "lost its way" when that's an argument that's existed since the second 8 came out. Fans all believe they know "what Final Fantasy is" and then stuff gets named on what they think the series is and every game is 99% of what they say and it's just "missing" one thing that really the developers just didn't want to do because it wasn't their aim. It's always been "keep making FF7 again but prettier" and even the FF7 remake itself is "that isn't the real FF7, make it like the old FF7." FF7 Syndrome is Very Very Real.
I also like the suggestions for what to do that are immediately counterpointed in the post that they get suggested in, suggesting that those ideas aren't great in the first place. As though this stuff was just never considered during development for even a moment.
I also like the suggestions for what to do that are immediately counterpointed in the post that they get suggested in, suggesting that those ideas aren't great in the first place. As though this stuff was just never considered during development for even a moment.
D
Deleted member 2258
Guest
Speaking of Octopath Traveler, I hope that it continues to forge its own unique identity as a series moving forward.
Personally, I think it would be cool if they keep the same 8 character, 8 story format but continue moving forward through generations. OT3 could be closer to modern day, and OT4 would be set in the distant future.
5, 6, 7 would involve time travel shenanigans, and 8 would use the archetypal characters from the distant past.
PixelKnight
Observing the process
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Yeah I’d be down for the Industrial Revolution that opened the world up continuing a bit. It helped that OT2 was the very definition of a good, iterative sequel to me. Everything improved across the board.
JazzPotatoes
Koopa
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I think Square should actually have a go at making the next mainline game a fun RPG with ATB combat. Just do a Nintendo, go back to the start of the series, reanalyze what people found fun about the core gameplay loop, and build on that with a new game that jettisons all the weird hybrid action combat stuff it's been dallying with.
ATB combat that rewards strategy and tactical play, and is easy to get into.
A classic, bright and breezy fantasy setting involving a diverse range of characters and locales.
Bring back Nobuo Uematsu to do one last soundtrack for the series. I'm sure he's still got one left in him.
In terms of open world or linear: again, go back to formula. Start the game off linear, then give players the option to open up the world as they progress and find more things to explore. FFIX wasn't a true open world game, but you could still go pretty much anywhere by the time you reached the final act.
ATB combat that rewards strategy and tactical play, and is easy to get into.
A classic, bright and breezy fantasy setting involving a diverse range of characters and locales.
Bring back Nobuo Uematsu to do one last soundtrack for the series. I'm sure he's still got one left in him.
In terms of open world or linear: again, go back to formula. Start the game off linear, then give players the option to open up the world as they progress and find more things to explore. FFIX wasn't a true open world game, but you could still go pretty much anywhere by the time you reached the final act.
ziggyrivers
thunder
- Pronouns
- He/him/his
We want Bravely HD Remasters
AoiHana
NINTENDOOMED
- Pronouns
- She/they
I think this maybe implies something closer to an HD version of what the FF DS remakes were? Or maybe something like Ever Crisis.
TBH, you could argue that’s what Bravely Default basically is.
Terraforce
Keyblade Wielder
- Pronouns
- he/him
This is how you can tell some come to their conclusions based on a couple trailers or off hand impressions from another source. It's tiring discussing this game with people who haven't played it because it's so abundantly clear they have their perception of the game they're going with rather than the actual product that released. There is no way XVI is any less FF than most mainline FFs.
Chindogg
Rattata
- Pronouns
- He/Him
My biggest complaints about 16 are basically that the game is a bit bleak at times, there's only one playable character, and outside of the Eikon fights the combat gets pretty boring.
I miss the ability to manage specialists as a team, doing really epic abilities where the game slows down to appreciate those moments. The dodge and abilities in 16 feel a bit like a blander Bayonetta.
The game is certainly Final Fantasy, but it's kind of a lackluster entry for those who aren't into making big combos with abilities that have little variety. It makes a lot of the fights very samey.
John Omaha
Moblin
I don't think open world FF is a bad idea either but it's not the best option IMO.
One of the aspects the series has struggled with after the move to more realistic graphics and HD especially is providing the same kind of scope to the adventure as FF 1-9. The issue with open-world games is that the player needs to be able to reach most points of interest in a reasonable amount of time, unless world traversal is the main hook of the gameplay (e.g. Microsoft Flight Simulator). This makes a lot of open-world games feel kinda small, despite objectively being some of the biggest worlds in gaming. Because of this, I feel that it's nearly impossible to make an open-world FF that properly conveys the feeling of journeying across an entire planet without it being prohibitively expensive and tedious to play.
Square-Enix needs to figure out how to design environments that 'feel' big and are interesting to explore without actually being massive, and connect them together in a believable way. Is there a way to modernize the classic world map in a more realistic style? Finding solutions to these game design problems is arguably more important for FF than having the best production values.
terribleidiot
Cappy
I'd like to see them go all in on VII or VIII like game. With pre-rendered backdrops and the like. But at HD scale. I think it would look beautiful. Amazing cut scenes etc. It might be a way for them to keep up with the graphical horserace without going bankrupt.
But I guess that's also a problem. From VI to 13 these games were amongst the most beautiful looking games on the systems they were on. Just showcases. I remember seeing the renders for VIII and being blown away.
It's just infeasible for it to be that way anymore. How many people where involved in FFX? For how long? The kind of budgets that games require these days mean that you're kind of forced to be in this more action and more generic space that I don't think FF can really compete in long term. Persona and Fire Emblem have carved out identities for themselves, but neither are FF scale.
I don't really know the answer, and as we move to more and more powerful hardware, and games become more and more intensive to make, maybe there just isn't place for a big budget RPG series anymore, and it should scale down to more modest ambitions, with a little more character.
But I guess that's also a problem. From VI to 13 these games were amongst the most beautiful looking games on the systems they were on. Just showcases. I remember seeing the renders for VIII and being blown away.
It's just infeasible for it to be that way anymore. How many people where involved in FFX? For how long? The kind of budgets that games require these days mean that you're kind of forced to be in this more action and more generic space that I don't think FF can really compete in long term. Persona and Fire Emblem have carved out identities for themselves, but neither are FF scale.
I don't really know the answer, and as we move to more and more powerful hardware, and games become more and more intensive to make, maybe there just isn't place for a big budget RPG series anymore, and it should scale down to more modest ambitions, with a little more character.
- Pronouns
- She/They
I'm gonna sound like a broken record here, but FF16 is probably the best looking game you can get on a console, so it's already pushing the graphical showcase angle. There's several hours of mindblowing cutscenes on top of that to really sell it.
I really don't think it's a game quality issue that FF isn't big anymore anyways. It's almost assuredly a marketing and brand issue coming out of SE. It's their fault some of y'all don't even know the kinda game that just released, that the trust in the brand has been eroded by 2 decades plus of mismanagement (despite releasing mostly good games), and that they use such terrible platform release schedules. It doesn't help that the genre of RPG that FF belongs to has slid further into niche status since the 90s where they were huge and they've failed to escape that.
It'd take a miracle for a single major game to really turn all of that around, and FF16 just ain't it. It's a pretty good game, it's just not that good to overcome all of the horseshit that is SE as a business. They'd need to go a step farther with their reinventing of the genre and get something totally mindblowing out of left field to do that. I do think FF16 managing to do a lot of different things for the series and not totally bomb is already a good step in the right direction; it's just going to take a lot more than that to undo all this nonsense. I don't think being more conservative or makin small changes is going to be the magic bullet here either.
OP
OP
SpaceGodzilla
Did You Get that Thing I Sent You?
- Pronouns
- him
ziggyrivers
thunder
- Pronouns
- He/him/his
Zelda sent FFXVI back home on a wheelchair with those legs
Branduil
Bob-omb
World maps need to come back in general. Open worlds can be great for their own reasons but nothing feels as large as a classic JRPG world map.
PixelKnight
Observing the process
- Pronouns
- He/Him
It’s an interesting point in rpgs. If I’m fast travelling everywhere because travel on foot or vehicles is dull and time consuming, to me it’s kinda missed something. I like the old rpgs where getting a boat/airship were the big thresholds that suddenly opened up the game. Going from on-foot to flight instantly and travelling across the world map in seconds gave you a real sense of geography. Similarly, I like the change of perspective in TotK, where I’ll often glide in from a long way off as flight is just fun. Where FF games killed the airship (I think I really noticed it in FFXII but it might even have been FFX) it removed one of my favourite parts of the game. It grounded the worlds and made it feel like you couldn’t just zip around the entire planet, that the game world was only a small chunk of that planet, which is fine. But you don’t need to have to be able to do laps over the North Pole to make maps and traversal with vehicles a fun part of an rpg, especially when it’s only very rare that I want to trudge back to early game village A through cave system B more than once. Fast travel just feels like a mechanic that’s there because long-distance backtracking is boring, rather than giving a long-distance travel option that’s fun.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
X was the first game to turn the airship into a menu where you just picked where you wanted to go. There was some element of classic "fly around and find cool new areas" with the coordinates system, but that obviously doesn't give the same vibe.
PixelKnight
Observing the process
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Thanks, yeah I thought it probably was X, I played them out of order so often get confused.
Regulus Tera
Ruffian
I’m not gonna go into a rant about how FF is not what it used to be, because I already made peace with me outgrowing the franchise decades ago. However, I think FF has done a horrible job of remaining relevant, just as the same time as its contemporaries are reaching new heights.
Terraforce
Keyblade Wielder
- Pronouns
- he/him
I don't see that at all. Like it or not, each new FF release is still a big moment. XIV is massive, XV had a long and massive hype cycle, and all eyes were on XVI when it released.
Final Fantasy is definitely the most relevant non-Pokemon JRPG series around.
Regulus Tera
Ruffian
I think the very obvious sales decline is difficult to ignore. FF is struggling now to make the same numbers it did in the mid-2000s, which was already a downturn from the peak of the 90s. Meanwhile, franchises like Zelda and Resident Evil consistently sell in the tens of millions, at the same time that new IPs have taken over the fantasy audiences, like MonHun and Souls.
Terraforce
Keyblade Wielder
- Pronouns
- he/him
I don't know how you can speak to sales decline when the last numbered Final Fantasy entry sold about on par with "Resident Evil" despite RE being the more casual appealing of the two. XV selling 10-11 million copies is not a sales decline when it is the highest selling release other than VII not counting rereleases. Similarly XIV's total player count is 40 million+ (players =/= sales but the retention is clear with that game).
RE releases more frequently than FF so that "tens of millions" point seems moot. Also seems misguided to compare multiplayer games to single player RPGs. Obviously the former has more of an appeal on a casual level. Not to say MH/DS aren't spectacular for pulling off what they did, it's truly remarkable. But I fail to see how that's an equivalent comparison. Likewise let's not act like Breath of the Wild/Tears of the Kingdom is typical for the series. Prior to Switch Zelda games selling 4-5 million was considered a good thing.
Last edited:
- Pronouns
- He/him
That would be true if FFXIV wasn't the biggest MMO right now, a game that is becoming more and more popular with each new expansion, TEN YEARS after its release.
Like, seriously. It's been 1 year and a half since the release of Endwalker and... People are still playing it, people are still subbing, tons of new players join the game each day. This game is crazy popular, don't dismiss it because it's "just" a MMO. FFXIV is fucking huge. Like, WoW at its prime era huge.
(And like it was already said, FFXV was huge too.)
- Pronouns
- He
On the contrary, Resident Evil being "more casual appealing" (if you could even say that?) has everything to do with being a better managed franchise. Final Fantasy used to be bigger than Zelda and a more consistent snd bigger seller than RE (which prior to 5, was absolutely terrible in terms of consistency, 4 was basically saved by ports).
Saying that isn't the case now is ... kind of the point?
People are saying the mainline games are declining because of 7R and XVI, not because of an almost 10 year old game. But even then, Final Fantasy barely meeting the sales of a PS1 game from 1997 on more platforms than ever before and with digital distribution is not really franchise growth.
Every Resident Evil game since 7 will end up being a 10m + seller, except maybe REmake 3. They keep selling faster than the previous mainline games since 7, and they have much better legs than FF games. It's not as if people are pooling together the sales of RE games to come up with that figure. RE already has 2 more 10m+ sellers in the time since XV launched, and they're only selling faster.
There is really no world where FF singleplayer sales numbers look impressive post XV. Especially given the software boom of last gen. FF is no doubt still strong thanks in large part to XIV, but we're talking about its singleplayer relevance which is definitely crumbling.
Terraforce
Keyblade Wielder
- Pronouns
- he/him
We don't have updated sales on 7R, and XVI isn't even two weeks old. So if those two games are your sole argument it's not a good one. I can easily counter by saying the two releases prior to those are massive successes between XIV having tens of millions of people play each month and XV selling just under the best selling RE. Also it's ironic that XVI is your example of an apparent 'bad selling entry' when Resident Evil Village and Resident Evil 4 Remake both emphasized how much of a milestone it was to sell 3 million copies in the first week. Makes this measuring contest you're making this out to be seem even more silly.
You say "almost a 10 year old game" and "2 more 10m+ sellers since XV" like XV isn't the last mainline entry. That speaks to the infrequent release schedule of numbered entries and doesn't sound nearly like the strong punctuation you were seemingly attempting. And then you ignore XIV entirely for reasons...?
Also RE games have crazy legs, there's no denying that. But every RE since 7 have released on 6 platforms.
- Pronouns
- He
Do ... do ... do you think it's generally a good sign when a company doesn't update their sales? Square Enix recently reiterated the 5m+ milestone for 7R ... 3 years after the game's release and almost 3 years after the milestone was achieved. Lmao. And even though it's obviously above 5 million at this point, having nothing to boast about is the definition of not good. It could be at 6-6.5m and that would still be pretty bad legs.
Why are you even quoting something I never said? I didn't say that XVI sold bad. XVI sales will be fine. The topic was the loss of popularity of singleplayer FF, which is relevant whether or not they continue to get ok-but-not-mindblowing sales.
It's almost like RE games are less frontloaded or something.
Its not a measuring contest, the topic was literally about the relevancy of FF compared to series it used to be as / more popular than. Calm down.
I don't really care for semantics over what is mainline or not, I consider 7R mainline and there's no reason to believe that XVI's somewhat tepid launch will buck trends for legs. I'm not even sure why you're bringing up XIV. If you just want reassurance that Final Fantasy as a multimedia franchise is popular, no one is denying that. I said so a few pages ago. The discussion seemed to be about the franchise as a singleplayer entity, that's why RE and Zelda were discussed. Everyone knows XIV and XV were / are popular.
PS / XB / PC ... ? Not sure if you're including Cloud / PS5 / XBS. That would be a weird argument if so, since that would mean 7R is on 4 "platforms" and it still didn't have great legs (that also wouldn't be true for every RE game since 7).
I assumed this would be more like an actual installbase level sales discussion, maybe with some talk about what Square Enix could do in the future to turn the ship around. Really not interested in some fanboyism about how everyone is out to say XIV isn't popular or whatever.
terribleidiot
Cappy
It would be interesting to see how many of XVs sales were at full price compared to something like X. I think I got it for £20 on PSN.
JazzPotatoes
Koopa
- Pronouns
- He/Him
It's amazing how many of the current discussion points about the current state of FF are the same as the discussion points about Halo: another genre defying franchise that still gets lots of coverage and attention, but that I think everyone can agree is underperforming as a franchise compared to where it should be.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
No matter where it ends up sales or popularity-wise, I just hope FF never loses its experimental factor
Every FF, no matter how messy it can end up being, is just filled with a lot of heart and unique and inspiring ideas. You can tell it was the game the devs wanted to make, trends be damned. And that’ll always be respectable and inspiring to me. There’s just not another AAA franchise that just reinvents itself to this degree, and I find it refreshing to go into every numbered FF with no expectations and just see the ride it takes me on.
Like even XVI, which doesn’t look that crazy on the surface, is a 50 hour character action RPG hybrid set in a grounded GOT-style world yet with its biggest moments being shonen inspired, flashy, over the top kaiju fights. Like.. just a crazy combination of ideas lmfao
Every FF, no matter how messy it can end up being, is just filled with a lot of heart and unique and inspiring ideas. You can tell it was the game the devs wanted to make, trends be damned. And that’ll always be respectable and inspiring to me. There’s just not another AAA franchise that just reinvents itself to this degree, and I find it refreshing to go into every numbered FF with no expectations and just see the ride it takes me on.
Like even XVI, which doesn’t look that crazy on the surface, is a 50 hour character action RPG hybrid set in a grounded GOT-style world yet with its biggest moments being shonen inspired, flashy, over the top kaiju fights. Like.. just a crazy combination of ideas lmfao
Samus95
Like Like
It will be interesting after the 9 and 10 remake will do well(and 99% they will be turne based according to rumors aniway) I think those selling well will kickstarter a new Turn based FF
That or Team Asano being the most successful team in square
I have nothing against actio based gameplay(in fact the problem with XV is that of being not a complete game) and XVI looks great
But I think they should do an operation similar to the 2000: FF18 is a new game that change everything, FF19 is trpwback to the past(but the past is FFX and not VI now) a 2DHD FF that can be numbered or not
That or Team Asano being the most successful team in square
I have nothing against actio based gameplay(in fact the problem with XV is that of being not a complete game) and XVI looks great
But I think they should do an operation similar to the 2000: FF18 is a new game that change everything, FF19 is trpwback to the past(but the past is FFX and not VI now) a 2DHD FF that can be numbered or not
Nah man. Needs to be an extraction shooter. Get in, get as many crystals as you can, and GTFO.
Branduil
Bob-omb
Only if they add a mini-game where you drop chocobo eggs in a box to make bigger chocobo eggs for more points
they already tried that. shut down after less than a year
Branduil
Bob-omb
Ah well, nothing to be done then.
I mean it goes without saying that they couldn't just make a Final Fantasy game that updates the classic gameplay while staying true to its roots, with a modernized presentation, and a full and diverse party of interesting and fun characters who all have their own stories and arcs, with romance, drama, and a sense of adventure. There's no way that would work.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
You’ve just described FFXIII
it has to be a good game
PixelKnight
Observing the process
- Pronouns
- He/Him
FFVI 2D HD. C’mon Square, do it
ziggyrivers
thunder
- Pronouns
- He/him/his
The only problem FFXIII had was the departure from classic FF lore and the fact that the game was originally developed to be a PS3/BluRay exclusive, but after deciding to go Multiplatform (Xbox 360/DVD), they had to make a loooooot of sacrifices.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Manakete
The RETVRN stuff online about FF and turn-based is a bit much when the period most think of as the golden age (6-10) had two games with incredibly buggy combat systems (6 and 7), one combat system that was balanced horrifically (8), one that was so slow that it's nearly unplayable without speedup today (9), and one that had extremely slow and thoughtless random encounters (10).
FF7R's real-time with pause system is definitely the best combat system in the series.
It's.... Weird that Final Fantasy tried to copy Bayonetta and DMC instead of Dark Souls or God of War 2018 in having a more simplistic combat system though.
The problem FF13 had was that it was the last major game of the 2007-2010 era of developers thinking that players were incompetent. Dark Souls and the rise of competitive multiplayer games killed this notion, but FF13 started development well before then.
(Also, FF13's story is extremely bad and literally makes no sense. Nojima has had only misses since 2002)
Square's biggest issue is Nojima, much more than their gameplay systems. He's just... genuinely horrible at writing now and has been for over two decades.
FF7R's real-time with pause system is definitely the best combat system in the series.
It's.... Weird that Final Fantasy tried to copy Bayonetta and DMC instead of Dark Souls or God of War 2018 in having a more simplistic combat system though.
The problem FF13 had was that it was the last major game of the 2007-2010 era of developers thinking that players were incompetent. Dark Souls and the rise of competitive multiplayer games killed this notion, but FF13 started development well before then.
(Also, FF13's story is extremely bad and literally makes no sense. Nojima has had only misses since 2002)
Square's biggest issue is Nojima, much more than their gameplay systems. He's just... genuinely horrible at writing now and has been for over two decades.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Well there's apparently an FF9 remake in the works...
Maronic03
Chain Chomp
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I'm surprised we haven't seen that or the tactics remaster yet. We know they exist.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Manakete
They could have gotten cancelled (the FF9 remake at least).
Or rebooted while Square tries to free up resources for FF9.
It's one of their most important games so it wouldn't be surprising.
I think people noticed that they seemingly replaced the DQ3 Remake developer (the developer name vanished like a year or two ago from the video description) and, of course, they replaced CC2 with an internal team for FF7R.
Wouldn't be out of character for them to outsource FF9R, get mad at the results, and then do it themselves.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Going into 2024, Square has three Final Fantasy things coming up.
So, beyond those games, it comes down to more re-releases and spin-offs. IX and Tactics are out there, but their timeline doesn't seem to be soonish. After that, maybe they do something with VIII, but I'm not holding my breath. I'm guessing that there will be a spin-off or two that isn't on our radar. Either way, the franchise is in a really good place right now.
- Final Fantasy VII: Rebirth (Feb 29th)
- Final Fantasy XVI DLC (Spring)
- Final Fantasy XIV: Dawntrail (Summer)
So, beyond those games, it comes down to more re-releases and spin-offs. IX and Tactics are out there, but their timeline doesn't seem to be soonish. After that, maybe they do something with VIII, but I'm not holding my breath. I'm guessing that there will be a spin-off or two that isn't on our radar. Either way, the franchise is in a really good place right now.
I'm convinced that those projects were greenlit on a Monday and leaked the very next day. IIRC those were part of the Nvidia pre-COVID leak.
Zeal543
Paratroopa
The world/level design was also bad, I'd argue worse than the story
ItWasMeantToBe19
Manakete
Sure, but the level design was so bad in large part because Square viewed players as too incompetent to do anything but follow a straight line.
Square's level designers have been... pretty bad in general post FF9 though.
KH3's level design is pretty good and FF12's was good for the time, but stuff like FF15 is just... Terrible. And FF13 was a joke, of course. And KH2 might have the worst level design of a major game released.
I'm not sure I'd call this a good place. Theirs a distinct lack of new and varied games that grow the audience. All the new games are far in-between and what fills the gaps are remakes.
