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Discussion Paper Mario TTYD is currently the top selling game on Amazon

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Back tracking always feels like an overblown issue in the older PM titles. They have that metroidvania element of being able to find new things in old areas, opening up shortcuts to cut down on the back tracking, partners that increase your movement speed, etc. The General White segment is a flawed concept, largely because it's a poor use of back tracking. Incorporating a segment late in a game where you do a victory lap and can grab stuff you couldn't grab before is fine, especially if it's tied into opening up short cuts. Having the player warp to a town, talk to all the npcs till you find the one that tells you the next town GW went to, repeat, all for a "joke" that he was right where you started is just a poorly thought out concept.
I don't think backtracking is an issue with Paper Mario 64. That game's overall pacing and design follows up on the strong points of Super Mario RPG before it. It stood out when replaying both recently, but Paper Mario's map is immaculately well structured where linear stretches of the map almost always serve to funnel you forward and keeps exploration/retreading old ground within a clearly conveyed space expressly meant for puzzle solving. The Gusty Gulch chapter is a good example; the linear path forward is broken up by a forest riddle puzzle where you analyze your route forward, one "mini dungeon" that you explore, and then the dungeon proper after doing another linear path. When you do backtrack it's in the context of an urgent chase scene where you have to race back to a building you never entered near the start. The chapter ends shortly after and now conveniently has you placed right near the world exit that'll lead you back to the main hub. Worlds like the Flower Fields and Shy Guy's Toybox have a more experimental approach to design, and the former is usually considered a weak spot chapter by many because that one does involve backtracking, though that one at least sets up the structure early and clearly by having a hub with branching paths.

Contrast TTYD, let's look at Keelhaul Key; the first linear stretch will eventually stop you with a quest to help a character, who asks to get them an item that someone near the start of the world has. You go back only to be rebuffed and asked to bring them a replacement item. If you didn't have the foresight to pick up that replacement item (which is highly likely because the item is out of sight, takes up your likely stacked inventory slot at that point in the game, and is overall a shitty item), you'll have to go back that linear stretch again to almost-near the end to get it. You go back to the start and exchange the item, then go back to the end of the stretch again to deliver the new item you needed from the start. You now have to go back to the start of the world again to recover another item that will allow you to enter the dungeon, and only after doing that and going back to the end of the linear path again do you gain access to the dungeon proper. That's potentially as many as three round trips + one-way trip through the same tight pathways just to make significant progress. You have a partner that allows you to move faster, but it still feels tedious because you're left having to weave passed some tough-to-avoid enemies (that are also really persistent in battle) and some awkward platforming to get through. And that's not even the parts of the game that tend to get scrutinized the most whenever the criticism gets brought up against the game. It feels inorganic to say the least.

As a Metroid fan I quite love backtracking when it's executed well, but TTYD has a lot of moments where it feels highly artificial. Ideally in an RPG, backtracking should either be done if you can feel like you're building a sense of short anticipation toward what's coming next, or if the player goes out of their way to do some side quests on their own volition. I can't say why TTYD ended up the way it did but it feels particularly emblematic of a time when games felt like they'd artificially bloat their runtime. To date, HLTB still estimates that TTYD is the longest game in the series to actually beat, and I think that's no surprise. It's an incredibly charming game that's immersive in its world, though on replays it's easy to notice how the mentality behind its design can be felt in small and not-so-small ways. I think there's definitely some bandaid solutions that can be applied in some areas, and my personal hope is that the Switch remaster throws in some shortcut warps at places.

I will agree with the post above that Sticker Star was arguably way worse than TTYD with its backtracking, but I don't like that game and it has enough problems as is, so I have no reason to focus on it.
 
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I don't think backtracking is an issue with Paper Mario 64. That game's overall pacing and design follows up on the strong points of Super Mario RPG before it. It stood out when replaying both recently, but Paper Mario's map is immaculately well structured where linear stretches of the map almost always serve to funnel you forward and keeps exploration/retreading old ground within a clearly conveyed space expressly meant for puzzle solving. The Gusty Gulch chapter is a good example; the linear path forward is broken up by a forest riddle puzzle where you analyze your route forward, one "mini dungeon" that you explore, and then the dungeon proper after doing another linear path. When you do backtrack it's in the context of an urgent chase scene where you have to race back to a building you never entered near the start. The chapter ends shortly after and now conveniently has you placed right near the world exit that'll lead you back to the main hub. Worlds like the Flower Fields and Shy Guy's Toybox have a more experimental approach to design, and the former is usually considered a weak spot chapter by many because that one does involve backtracking, though that one at least sets up the structure early and clearly by having a hub with branching paths.

Contrast TTYD, let's look at Keelhaul Key; the first linear stretch will eventually stop you with a quest to help a character, who asks to get you an item that someone near the start of the world has. You go back only to be rebuffed and asked to bring them a replacement item. If you didn't have the foresight to pick up that replacement item (which is highly likely because the item is out of sight, takes up your likely stacked inventory slot at that point in the game, and is overall a shitty item), you'll have to go back that linear stretch again to almost-near the end to get it. You go back to the start and exchange the item, then go back to the end of the stretch again to deliver the new item you needed from the start. You now have to go back to the start of the world again to recover another item that will allow you to enter the dungeon, and only after doing that and going back to the end of the linear path again do you gain access to the dungeon proper. That's potentially as many as three round trips + one-way trip through the same tight pathways just to make significant progress. You have a partner that allows you to move faster, but it still feels tedious because you're left having to weave passed some tough-to-avoid enemies (that are also really persistent in battle) and some awkward platforming to get through. And that's not even the backtracking parts that tend to get scrutinized the most whenever the criticism gets brought up against the game. It feels inorganic to say the least.

As a Metroid fan I quite love backtracking when it's executed well, but TTYD has a lot of moments where it feels highly artificial. Ideally in an RPG, backtracking should either be done if you can feel like you're building a sense of short anticipation toward what's coming next, or if the player goes out of their way to do some side quests on their own volition. I can't say why TTYD ended up the way it did but it feels particularly emblematic of a time when games felt like they'd artificially bloat their runtime. To date, HLTB still estimates that TTYD is the longest game in the series to actually beat, and I think that's no surprise. It's an incredibly charming game that's immersive in its world, though on replays it's easy to notice how the mentality behind its design can be felt in small and not-so-small ways. I think there's definitely some bandaid solutions that can be applied in some areas, and my personal hope is that the Switch remaster throws in some shortcut warps at places.

I will agree with the post above that Sticker Star was arguably way worse than TTYD with its backtracking, but I don't like that game and it has enough problems as is, so I have no reason to focus on it.
I've not played TTYD in awhile so my memory is a bit rusty, but what you describe sounds pretty standard for PM64, TTYD, and SPM in the various levels. I also don't have an issue with some back and forth as you're still getting exp which leads to more levels aka more hp/fp/badges. Could small segments like that be tightend up in the remake? Absolutely, but I'd rather back track over the same area 2-3 times getting progressively stronger then to through 6-9 original screens with no meaningful improvements to my character.
 
@Decoyman
Yeah idk, small segments where they have you retreading some of the same ground is pretty common across all videogames.
Backtracking needs to be egregious and monotonous and tiring to be noteworthy to me.

It's a hard thing to balance in games. If you have zero backtracking/exploration it just feels like linear levels.
Also, I do feel like sometimes based on the theme of the world/level it might be purposefully trying to get you lost. It is a secluded island.
Idk.

I mean I guess I see what you mean, like you mean the game should never demand you go back a screen or two
but it's okay to make you look for things in a section when you get to it?

Let me replay the game first before I really comment on this.
 
I've not played TTYD in awhile so my memory is a bit rusty, but what you describe sounds pretty standard for PM64, TTYD, and SPM in the various levels. I also don't have an issue with some back and forth as you're still getting exp which leads to more levels aka more hp/fp/badges. Could small segments like that be tightend up in the remake? Absolutely, but I'd rather back track over the same area 2-3 times getting progressively stronger then to through 6-9 original screens with no meaningful improvements to my character.
Man, don't get me started on SPM lol. That one's its own can of worms.

I like to bring up Paper Mario 64 whenever the backtracking discussion happens because personally I feel like it's a game that makes it clear it's not an either-or solution. You can have good map design that balances explorative chunks with forward-moving pathways, and still have meaningful combat encounters. That holds just as true for TTYD's overworld as it does TOK's combat, but frankly just as much as people like to say that the backtracking is a complaint that's easy to brush aside, I don't feel much different about TOK's random combat. They both manage to exhaust me in their own ways that I put up with for the sake of a good time.
 
Some of you are crazy obsessed with Arlo, it’s kinda creepy. If you don’t like him, ignore him or write him a message. This is literally happening every single week on here, and in almost any context.
I like Arlo, he’s one of my favorite YouTubers. He’s also not infallible, there’s of course the formally mentioned Zelda video, and there’s the whole “Modern Paper Mario is only the way it is to spite us TTYD fans” argument that I very much think is childish. I don’t think there’s anything wrong in calling that out.
 
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Some of you are crazy obsessed with Arlo, it’s kinda creepy. If you don’t like him, ignore him or write him a message. This is literally happening every single week on here, and in almost any context.
Yeah folks don’t realize how obsessed they are with a puppet that discusses Nintendo. Do people ever see their own takes they have all the time on here or these other gaming websites??
 
Some of you are crazy obsessed with Arlo, it’s kinda creepy. If you don’t like him, ignore him or write him a message. This is literally happening every single week on here, and in almost any context.

yeah this thread is just bizarre to read as someone that doesn't know who Arlo even is outside of seeing them referenced here
 
As the conversation has strayed into meta discussion of the fandom and has gone further off topic, we’ll be locking this thread. - Lord Azrael, xghost777, Zellia, BassForever
 
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