StarTopic Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door |ST| A Classic Re_rinted!

[Brock Reiher]

What do you mean feeling like the B-side?

Maybe not the right word, but it feels very similar to the first game but with small twists on everything and being less impactful. Still a great game of course!

 

[sadsquid]

I'm not going to just dunk on Origami King/modern Paper Mario, I thought Origami King was a good game with some fantastic strengths. But in addition to a lot of the structural and gameplay aspects I missed from the older games, one thing that made a big difference to me was the tone. Something that the scenarios, characters, writing and presentation all contribute to.

TTYD has plenty of goofy moments and it's overall still a light-hearted game. But it also had plenty moments that didn't fit that mold (which was unusual for Mario), moments that were (relatively) dark, mysterious or melancholic, and feel kinda wrong for a mario game, but in an awesome way. I'm not going to put them here due to spoilers for new players, but they are found all throughout the game. Super Paper Mario took it even further with its tone.

I did feel a spark of that in one specific section of Origami King, and that was finding the Origami Craftsman's workshop. It was this kinda existential, meta moment that was played seriously, and along with the fantastic music that played there, it really intrigued me. I was sad when it was over so quickly.

We don't want every game to have the same tone of course and it's super subjective, but I feel the tone is one of the reasons TTYD (and SPM in its own way) is special.

 

[JR436]

Spoiler: Chapter 3 Spoilers

How is it I never realised until now that Jolene is the female Toad in the juice bar!?

 

[SpaceGodzilla]

Got a Black Yoshi On My First Try

 

[AstroOhHey]

Only up to chapter 2 due to work obligations but still having a fantastic time. They're not HUGE changes but stuff like chapter specific themes, new character themes for everyone, voices, etc. really help elevate a game I already loved a ton.

I actually do think it's a little disconcerting that the two new characters we got in this remake that weren't there in the GCN game, actually do kinda sorta adhere to the dreaded "Mario Mandate".

As in, they're both "normal" Mario characters with at most, different hats and outfits, which are still allowed to exist as shown by Color Splash and The Origami King. Ian Foomus is just a normal Yoshi's Island Little Mouser wearing a grey cap, and the Battle Master is still at his core a normal toad just wearing a purple tangzhuang coat and guapi mao cap. Both of these could easily exist in The Origami King.

I know how silly this sounds, but my fears would definitely be quenched if the Battle Master was allowed to have hair or even be female, or even even replace his whole mushroom head with a hat or something, like the Excess Express Engineer.

As someone who thinks the lack of world-building/elaborate plots and hoard of generic toads/designs in the last few games (to be fair TOK tries to break out of this significantly) were arguably a bigger issue than moving away from being a JRPG, I'm really not seeing the issue with the new NPC's here. TTYD already had 'generic' toads, the thing is more they weren't the only NPC's populating the world. Hell even having the mouses from Yoshi's Island as a new NPC is lightyears ahead of the NSMB-only cast the modern Paper Mario's seemed stuck working with.

I'm fine if future Paper Mario's are a bit more restrictive in the sense of like, 'no new species' (every new Mario game introduces so many new enemy types you have tons to work with now anyway) or something like female Toads have to adhere to Toadette's base design. The first three PM's came out before Nintendo really started establishing a set design guideline for the Mario world most games followed, I get it. The issue is when it gets so extreme that you have situations like TOK where it makes it fairly clear it's meant to be in the same world as PM64/TTYD with its call-backs but then you're questioning where all the named characters went and why there aren't female/child toads anymore. I get the toads are basically the smurfs now with Toadette being Smurfette but it's still really weird/off-putting to me lmao.

If things had been looser with what SS/CS/TOK had to work with I feel like we'd have seen 3DWorld/Odyssey species as NPC's or they'd even branch out to other adjacent franchises like they did with YI's enemies with like, kremlings or something. Classic PM really excelled at building up Mario's world with what the wider library of Mario/Mario-adjacent games offered.

 

[Lucifer]

Only up to chapter 2 due to work obligations but still having a fantastic time. They're not HUGE changes but stuff like chapter specific themes, new character themes for everyone, voices, etc. really help elevate a game I already loved a ton.


As someone who thinks the lack of world-building/elaborate plots and hoard of generic toads/designs in the last few games (to be fair TOK tries to break out of this significantly) were arguably a bigger issue than moving away from being a JRPG, I'm really not seeing the issue with the new NPC's here. TTYD already had 'generic' toads, the thing is more they weren't the only NPC's populating the world. Hell even having the mouses from Yoshi's Island as a new NPC is lightyears ahead of the NSMB-only cast the modern Paper Mario's seemed stuck working with.

I'm fine if future Paper Mario's are a bit more restrictive in the sense of like, 'no new species' (every new Mario game introduces so many new enemy types you have tons to work with now anyway) or something like female Toads have to adhere to Toadette's base design. The first three PM's came out before Nintendo really started establishing a set design guideline for the Mario world most games followed, I get it. The issue is when it gets so extreme that you have situations like TOK where it makes it fairly clear it's meant to be in the same world as PM64/TTYD with its call-backs but then you're questioning where all the named characters went and why there aren't female/child toads anymore. I get the toads are basically the smurfs now with Toadette being Smurfette but it's still really weird/off-putting to me lmao.

If things had been looser with what SS/CS/TOK had to work with I feel like we'd have seen 3DWorld/Odyssey species as NPC's or they'd even branch out to other adjacent franchises like they did with YI's enemies with like, kremlings or something. Classic PM really excelled at building up Mario's world with what the wider library of Mario/Mario-adjacent games offered.

RPG games (especially dialogue heavy ones like Paper Mario) are the perfect opportunity to build and expand the Mario universe. When you take all that away you're left with jokes, gags, and on the nose puns about paper. The earlier PM games were great in terms of world building. They should have been improving on it, not shoot it down.

 

[DittoM]

 

[switchum]

Beat Chapter 3, which was always my favorite! It did not disappoint. Excited to start Chapter 4; I love the theming and style.

 

[sadsquid]

Chapter 4 is so gorgeous!

 

[VintoWin]

Dude... power lift... rally wink... power bounce is so strong lol what in the world. 1-2 turn bosses.

Might replay after beating it and ban myself from using dps buffs/dps buff badges. lol

 

[ComradeKoopa]

The pipe at the Rogueport plaza leading directly to the fast travel pipes is such a welcome addition. This remake is amazing.

 

[ohlawd]

got the extra pack before ch 4. don't remember bothering with the gauntlet at all until endgame

 

[Gengar]

Some of the music in chapter 6 is really on point. Specifically:

Spoiler: Chapter 6

The battle theme for normal enemies in the riverside station. They really went off on that one, and I loved it!

 

[Jersh]

I've played this game enough to notice more extensive text reworking in the main script than I anticipated. It's nothing major, but there's a running theme of characters more frequently referring quest items you need - things like the stone keys (which I think are now exclusively called the Sun and Moon keys, which makes it more clear) in Chapter 1 and the cell keys in Chapter 2.

I don't really have strong thoughts on it, just making a note. It seems they don't want anyone to be stuck wondering what to do, which is good, but given the new partner hint system I don't think that was really much of a concern.

I don't mind the music mixing so much but I wish sounds weren't so quiet. You can barely hear the audience.

I've noticed the audience has shifted from generic cheering to individual voices that correspond to the characters present. They also got louder in the original as the crowd gets bigger (max capacity grows every 10 levels); you might find the problem goes away later in the game.

 

[Stopdoor]

Agreed. The only standout scenario writing in Origami King was Bobby's arc and (to a lesser extent) teaming up with Kamek in Chapter 5. It's especially bad in the boat chapter where there's like nothing going on, at all. You're sent to aimlessly explore the ocean and that's it, with minimal NPC interaction.

It just doesn't hit the same as TTYD, which I'd say is inspired by how Dragon Quest games are structured around a series of vignettes

I dunno, I remember clipping this scene with Luigi because it gave me a real laugh, and as mentioned in the post below, the Origami Craftsman's workshop had an interesting air of mystery. I wouldn't argue the game couldn't have used more "civilization" but I don't really remember the ocean chapter as a lowlight of the game.

I'm not going to just dunk on Origami King/modern Paper Mario, I thought Origami King was a good game with some fantastic strengths. But in addition to a lot of the structural and gameplay aspects I missed from the older games, one thing that made a big difference to me was the tone. Something that the scenarios, characters, writing and presentation all contribute to.

TTYD has plenty of goofy moments and it's overall still a light-hearted game. But it also had plenty moments that didn't fit that mold (which was unusual for Mario), moments that were (relatively) dark, mysterious or melancholic, and feel kinda wrong for a mario game, but in an awesome way. I'm not going to put them here due to spoilers for new players, but they are found all throughout the game. Super Paper Mario took it even further with its tone.

I did feel a spark of that in one specific section of Origami King, and that was finding the Origami Craftsman's workshop. It was this kinda existential, meta moment that was played seriously, and along with the fantastic music that played there, it really intrigued me. I was sad when it was over so quickly.

We don't want every game to have the same tone of course and it's super subjective, but I feel the tone is one of the reasons TTYD (and SPM in its own way) is special.

Man, a character literally died and you had to grieve their loss in Origami King to a level that is pretty dang beyond any other Mario game. Maybe you can quibble about how often it happens, but I don't think it ever gets as "dark" or "melancholic" in Thousand-Year Door.

 

[Lucifer]

I dunno, I remember clipping this scene with Luigi because it gave me a real laugh, and as mentioned in the post below, the Origami Craftsman's workshop had an interesting air of mystery. I wouldn't argue the game couldn't have used more "civilization" but I don't really remember the ocean chapter as a lowlight of the game.





Man, a character literally died and you had to grieve their loss in Origami King to a level that is pretty dang beyond any other Mario game. Maybe you can quibble about how often it happens, but I don't think it ever gets as "dark" or "melancholic" in Thousand-Year Door.

That moment shook me because I didn't expect PM to go there after SS and CS. It's my favourite moment in TOK and modern PM.
However, the way PM is treated as a separate universe, made of paper ever since SS, keeps the stories very lighthearted overall.

The first three games feel like Mario stories just presented as a storybook, which has my preference.

 

[Common Knowledge]

About those cursed treasure chests

Spoiler

those are definitely the four old heroes we hear about from that lore dump story guy right?

 

[Jersh]

About those cursed treasure chests

Spoiler

those are definitely the four old heroes we hear about from that lore dump story guy right?

Yes.

 

[Rocketjay]

One of my favorite bits in the game is the old people ranting about random stuff for hours. It didn't land for me when I was a kid, but now that my dad is an old man, I think it lands so well as a joke.

 

[YoboD]

Still one of my favourite RPG battle systems, I love the way it expands on the original. I still try to pull iff the stylish moves in the N64 game even though they’re not a thing, that’s how ingrained they are in my memory.

Its really showing me how much I’ve missed this style of Paper Mario with the battle system and party members.

 

[AstroOhHey]

I dunno, I remember clipping this scene with Luigi because it gave me a real laugh, and as mentioned in the post below, the Origami Craftsman's workshop had an interesting air of mystery. I wouldn't argue the game couldn't have used more "civilization" but I don't really remember the ocean chapter as a lowlight of the game.

Stuff like this really helped endeared me to TOK's writing after I always felt SS/CS relied way too much on self-aware humor to compensate for the lack of more character-driven stuff. Luigi constantly showing up throughout feels like a nice continuation of his adventures in TTYD, helping out with Birdo's stage-show, getting insight into Kamek's annoyance being a glorified babysitter, Bowser explaining to Olivia about life lessons and raising a kid at the end; it's a lot of classic PM-isms the prior two titles were lacking and I hope a 7th game keep going with it.

 

[sadsquid]

Man, a character literally died and you had to grieve their loss in Origami King to a level that is pretty dang beyond any other Mario game. Maybe you can quibble about how often it happens, but I don't think it ever gets as "dark" or "melancholic" in Thousand-Year Door.

That's true, and that was unexpected. The actual death didn't really make much of an impact on me though, because I just didn't really care about Bobby. He was a blank slate (on purpose, with the amnesia and everything) and had just annoyed me more than anything before that (e.g. getting lost and making you take big detours to find him, the first instance of a partner refusing to come into the mini-dungeon for some reason). But the section after that was great, Olivia grieving and that music playing.

So yes, it's not that Origami King didn't have any of those deeper or "dark" moments, it's just they seemed few and far between for me, and often had an aspect or two that held it back. PM64, TTYD and SPM all had a heap of moments that have really stuck with me over the years, and Origami King kinda just came and went for me (for the most part), although I still had a good time with it.

 

[VintoWin]

I dunno, I remember clipping this scene with Luigi because it gave me a real laugh, and as mentioned in the post below, the Origami Craftsman's workshop had an interesting air of mystery. I wouldn't argue the game couldn't have used more "civilization" but I don't really remember the ocean chapter as a lowlight of the game.





Man, a character literally died and you had to grieve their loss in Origami King to a level that is pretty dang beyond any other Mario game. Maybe you can quibble about how often it happens, but I don't think it ever gets as "dark" or "melancholic" in Thousand-Year Door.

Yeah ok, I'm not sure if we are playing the same game.

Spoiler (TTYD) addressing your claim:

It actually does happen in TTYD (death). Actually a few. I won't tell you who.

+ many of the partners have melancholic backstories

Koops and his dad....

Flurrie is a retired actress... who finds renewed passion in the wilderness thanks to the punies.

Vivian is abused by her sisters... and finds acceptance from a crew that is actually nice to her.

Admiral Bobbery's wife died.... he mourns her loss.. he feels it is his fault which causes him to give up on his passion...


Did you get the game yet? It sounds like you either just started TTYD or haven't played it yet.

 

[kirbyfan407]

Having played through Chapter 2...the first environment you visit in that chapter is gorgeous, and I loved the soundtrack and sound design of the character footsteps. I didn't appreciate the dungeon environment of the chapter quite as much, but the backgrounds had a cool visual design.

I tend to get a little lost in many of the environments, but hopefully I at least start learning the areas you repeatedly visit.

 

[Phendrift]

Chapter 4, like Chapter 2, really really shines with its visual and sound upgrades.

The environments are gorgeous, for one. I love the remixes of all the field themes, the main town theme especially.

Spoiler: Second Half

I love how for the Shadow Mario segment, the field music is almost entirely stripped away barring some suspenseful atmospheric sounds. Really sells the vibe.

Atomic Boo and both versions of Doopliss theme are amazing as well

 

[entut1]

Having made my way to Chapter 4, I'm left ruminating on the writing in this game and find myself believing that the series only ever got better about writing as time progressed. Part of the reason for this I feel is that TTYD, for the most of the part, has a pretty conventional approach to humor that relies a lot on textual script and very little on cinematography or the richness of its own presentation. It leads to a lot of "haha" type moments that elicit good chuckles but nothing that really ever gets me in the gut. The Mario & Luigi series felt like the king in terms of humor because it's so good about combining text and visual gags, but I think even Paper Mario got really good about this once it truly got comfortable with its own medium. One of my favorite gags in Origami King is when you recruit Bobby and how the mixture of music usage, expressions, pauses, and Olivia's attention deficit tendencies really elevates the tried and true Paper Mario trope of Mario usually getting an option to rebuke someone's request, whereas in TTYD having to select a funny option usually has Mario's partner come in to defang the situation immediately.

I think Vivian's character arc in TTYD is beautiful. On the other hand, I'm kind of disappointed that it's the only character arc of its kind in the game and that it's limited in how long it gets exposure within the plot. I think even the designers must have realized they landed on accidental gold with her because in many ways she feels like the Paper Mario series' first instance of trying to imbue an ongoing character arc as an emotional anchor and they kept trying to do that several games in a row later (I can't say RPGs in general because Mallow is kind of the originator here); her arc spans part of one chapter and the full length of another one. By the time Origami King rolled around, the writers were so confident in their ability to write a sad turn in a character arc that progressing in the story takes a halt because Mario himself tries to find a way to comfort someone who went through a significant loss, and that loss is only further felt if you went through optional sequences where your full party of three got to experience fun things together. It's a dilemma resolved through Mario's goodness and ingenuity rather than a convenient third party plot item. Because Mario's such a cipher in the early games it's easy to take for granted that these games largely needed a more subtextual reading of the impact that Mario has on the people he meet (Super Paper Mario might be the guiltiest offender because of how it accelerated the feeling of the heroes' insignificance in the overall narrative -- not so much mechanically obviously). By the very end of TOK's narrative the characters successfully come across as more than just paper-thin beings but people who all had lived experience.

Taro Kudo has just consistently leveled up since his entry into the series with Sticker Star. Can't wait to see how he and his writing team tackle PM7.

 

[ze_]

Origami King’s ocean chapter landed the same way for me. Dialogue is that game’s greatest strength and you spend a lot of that chapter boating about waiting for something to happen. It doesn’t help that it followed a chapter that is structurally similar, where you’re navigating a flat open space looking for events.

It’s a somewhat nonsensical replacement, but the animation is very cute and when it does feel like it contradicts a scene I just find it funny, like Mario is being is very passive aggressive.

Spoiler: Fan art based on event in TTYD Ch. 1

 

[Radio Agi]

Did they randomly buff Hammer Throw? I don't think it used to pierce defense before.

Quoting myself for visibility. Did Hammer Throw pierce defense in the original game?

 

[MusicProposition]

I dunno, I remember clipping this scene with Luigi because it gave me a real laugh, and as mentioned in the post below, the Origami Craftsman's workshop had an interesting air of mystery. I wouldn't argue the game couldn't have used more "civilization" but I don't really remember the ocean chapter as a lowlight of the game.





Man, a character literally died and you had to grieve their loss in Origami King to a level that is pretty dang beyond any other Mario game. Maybe you can quibble about how often it happens, but I don't think it ever gets as "dark" or "melancholic" in Thousand-Year Door.

Those moments are great but they kinda feel out of place when the overall story is so simple. I don’t know, for me it’s not just funny writing and 1-2 emotional episodes when so many other things lack depth. Why is the antagonist just some random little origami character without much personality than being… evil? Why are his thugs just… office supplies? What makes this world interesting without the new antagonist, do the places have a backstory - aren’t they just nice scenery?

I think it needs much, much more than that for a good story. TTYD is not “perfect” in that regard either, but the whole concept behind the story, the locales and their residents are much more interesting to me. And I wouldn’t say that it doesn’t get this dark. If you really look closely, talk to the characters, you’re gonna find like 5 times more of these moments than in TOK tbh.

 

[Clov]

Just finished Chapter 4! I'm just so happy...!

There's something really special about how Vivian being openly, unquestionably trans in the remake that makes this chapter just WORK. When she comes out to Mario, it recontextualizes the earlier scenes with her. Vivian wants to feel like she belongs with her family, wants Beldam to call her her sister, but she gets nothing but abuse in return. Choosing to join Mario, even once she realizes who Mario really is, shows her stepping away from a toxic environment and embracing a new family. Not to mention how willing she is to help Mario find his name and body... these parts simply work better now. They resonate with Vivian's own identity as a trans woman, and really play off common trans experiences so well.

Chapter 4 was always my favorite as a kid, just as Vivian was my favorite character. Now it's just so much better than before! I love this so much...

 

[entut1]

It’s a somewhat nonsensical replacement, but the animation is very cute and when it does feel like it contradicts a scene I just find it funny, like Mario is being is very passive aggressive.

it's so funny heh. Feels like the superior move somewhat.

 

[Mekanos]

Quoting myself for visibility. Did Hammer Throw pierce defense in the original game?

I thought that stood out. Checked it and it's a new feature to the remake.

 

[underFlorence]

I actually do think it's a little disconcerting that the two new characters we got in this remake that weren't there in the GCN game, actually do kinda sorta adhere to the dreaded "Mario Mandate".

As in, they're both "normal" Mario characters with at most, different hats and outfits, which are still allowed to exist as shown by Color Splash and The Origami King. Ian Foomus is just a normal Yoshi's Island Little Mouser wearing a grey cap, and the Battle Master is still at his core a normal toad just wearing a purple tangzhuang coat and guapi mao cap. Both of these could easily exist in The Origami King.

I know how silly this sounds, but my fears would definitely be quenched if the Battle Master was allowed to have hair or even be female, or even even replace his whole mushroom head with a hat or something, like the Excess Express Engineer.

I think what makes these guys (Ian Foomus in particular) stick out from modern Paper Mario names the most is that they get to have actual names. Nowadays, other than established Mario characters and complete OCs, they tend to just have a descriptor or their species name (i.e. the Professor from TOK, Bobby is just an Olivia-given nickname for "Bob-Omb"). Ian Foomus feels like he could've easily just been called "Info Mouse" in a modern Paper Mario game.

Honestly, we can talk about the restrictions on modifying characters all we want, but I think the biggest loss is the relative hesitancy to mine the mainline Mario games for NPC designs nowadays. TTYD featured Piantas heavily, but the different NPC species from Odyssey for example just barely showed up anywhere. I think if instead of a bunch of Toads, an area would just randomly have a bunch of Bonnetons as NPCs, for example, it would do a lot to keep the games more unique.

On another note, it's so interesting listening to some of the new tracks from this OST because it basically feels like a B-Side from the TOK soundtrack with how similar instrumentation and chord progression is. I think I like it overall but as someone who listened to the TOK soundtrack a lot it does feel a bit weird to hear something that sounds quite this similar to specific tracks from that game.

 

[Radio Agi]

I thought that stood out. Checked it and it's a new feature to the remake.

This is the most random buff and I'll be a little salty if they don't give Ms. Mous something to make her worth using.

 

[Simpsons Recap]

new anti-backtracking pipes are putting in work

 

[Decoyman]

TOK's boat chapter ruled. It was the quintessential summer vibes chapter and a lovely homage to Wind Waker. If I can enjoy chapters where you're stuck in the same area for an hour or have to go backtrack several times, I can enjoy a game where you're just assimilating the atmosphere while traveling to islands.

But anyway, writing,

Yeah ok, I'm not sure if we are playing the same game.

Spoiler (TTYD) addressing your claim:

It actually does happen in TTYD (death). Actually a few. I won't tell you who.

+ many of the partners have melancholic backstories

Koops and his dad....

Flurrie is a retired actress... who finds renewed passion in the wilderness thanks to the punies.

Vivian is abused by her sisters... and finds acceptance from a crew that is actually nice to her.

Admiral Bobbery's wife died.... he mourns her loss.. he feels it is his fault which causes him to give up on his passion...


Did you get the game yet? It sounds like you either just started TTYD or haven't played it yet.

The "issue" (and I stress these finger quotes because it's not actually an issue, it simply highlights that TTYD is a game with very specific intentions) with TTYD's delving into darker instances is that so much of it is all ephemeral, not particularly explorative, primarily textural, and in some cases, mainly there for the sake of being funny.

You bring up Koops and Admiral Bobbery, both are introduced into the game with their overall motivations being at the forefront of their characters. It serves as some basic flavor to help you like them more, but in both cases they end up undercutting the heaviest elements of their stories with jokes. In Koops' case you find out that his dad might be dead, and then it wastes not a whole lot of seconds to reveal that "oh silly, that's not actually your dad". Admiral Bobbery is a similar case where the bartender's dialogue rather insincerely prefaces Bobbery's backstory with an "it's so sad you might actually cry" comment as if the player genuinely has this investment about someone they just met, and when Bobbery later seems to be on death's door and thinking about how he'll finally reunite with his lost wife, it turns out he's just asleep and you need to whack him on the head. TTYD is at its core a wacky lighthearted story that is always doing its plot in service of making you smile, laugh, and have fun. The stakes can feel serious but they never really fully commit to a lasting impact. Even (huge lategame spoilers) the death of TEC is undone in the postgame; all the good guys get a unanimously happy ending and the bad guys basically get a stern "no more evildoing, okay?"

Contrast that to TOK where permanence of positive and negative events is a very real thing because the entire thematic through-line of the game is built around the dichotomy of Olivia and Olly's lived experience. The loss of a partner isn't undercut by a joke, but is instead given an entire sequence about having to heal from it because the game recognizes there were a lot of moments they shared together, both mandatory and optional. There's a nice and quiet existential mystery behind discovering why Olivia and Olly were created (great sequence that only makes me want a Paper Mario & Luigi even more btw). Hell, one of the most poignant moments in the game has Bowser attempting to comfort Olivia (in his own way) by stressing that being a parent has made him more fearless against adversity. It all culminates in an excellently bittersweet close.

Now as said before, I think TTYD is good at conveying the vibe of the moment, and at no point should its aversion to downer permanence be seen as a flaw, because it's a Saturday morning cartoon that's a million miles per minute conjuring up fun things to make you smile. That all being said it's why I still feel that the people who work on writing and conveying the games' stories have grown more adept in balancing tone to bring about narratives that can make you feel the whole spectrum of lasting feelings -- and as I argued in my other post that extends to the humor. It loses in having a wider variety of individually unique casting, and outside of a few chapters it might be more conventional in locales and b-plots, but I feel pretty confident in saying that a new Paper Mario which can bring back a more liberally inventive approach to these things has all the potential of significantly one-upping TTYD as an experience from beginning to end, because the last game showed there's areas where they're accomplishing this already.

 

[WolfDW]

Looks like Nintendo read the last three pages of the thread and decided to put their two cents in.

(Contains some plot spoilers.)

 

[Decoyman]

Nice Chapter 3 boss spoilers, Nintendo

 

[Weiss]

This is the most random buff and I'll be a little salty if they don't give Ms. Mous something to make her worth using.

Her basic attack pierces defense but I can't remember if it did that in the original.

 

[SebastianRooks]

I've played this game enough to notice more extensive text reworking in the main script than I anticipated. It's nothing major, but there's a running theme of characters more frequently referring quest items you need - things like the stone keys (which I think are now exclusively called the Sun and Moon keys, which makes it more clear) in Chapter 1 and the cell keys in Chapter 2.

I don't really have strong thoughts on it, just making a note. It seems they don't want anyone to be stuck wondering what to do, which is good, but given the new partner hint system I don't think that was really much of a concern.


I've noticed the audience has shifted from generic cheering to individual voices that correspond to the characters present. They also got louder in the original as the crowd gets bigger (max capacity grows every 10 levels); you might find the problem goes away later in the game.

Not trolling or something, i played the hell out of the original on emulator (i own the gamecube one ), but this game gives way too much info yes and everything feels slower with a little delay, when you buy items, when youre scrolling in a battle, the enemy waits till the stars are finished flying to your starmeter, the texts, almost everything,... i get that they target a wider audience, but man, childs today also have a brain,... than the economy, you got 50 coins for even beating blooper, you dont lose coins when abort an battle, you earn coins now in the pit. Okay they made the badges 50% more expansive but not the items, so always have a mushroom or flower or something is never a problem anymore. There are more save blocks, more heart blocks, more items block to help you. A battle master, a npc in the trouble center to help you, goombella makes more comments, you can now hold 15 items, superguard has an easier time window. Skull bones now give little bit starpower too. 30fps is not the problem, they were going for visuals, which is okay, and maybe on switch 2 we get 60. The new shortcuts and the new warp pipe room are great too, with the addition of new secret bosses, but man,.... it feels like a child game now with massive handholding, rather than a teenie game.... i hope they fix at least the slower speed back in a switch 2 patch or something.

 

[xghost777]

Only really properly started this tonight and I’m not too far yet as I only reached the first room in Hooktail’s Castle. Always loved this game so stepping back in feels super cozy so far. I don’t have too many impressions yet, but noticed some of the changes. I’m indifferent on the new graphics. At times it looks quite nice, sometimes it looks too shiny, and other times I feel that 30 FPS strongly mostly in the bigger rooms like Rogueport Plaza where moving quickly causes some blurriness. I would have probably preferred a straight port of the original on the graphics front for the tradeoffs here, but thankfully not a big deal. The new music is very cool, probably my favorite part so far. Familiar tracks get whole new elements added and it feels exciting and fresh. I’m most looking forward to hearing the new battle themes as I go. Finally for now, the new Superguard window does indeed feel overly generous. I infrequently used it on the Gamecube version and here it feels like a reliable tool which will upset my approach to the game somewhat. I could always make select use of it, so I don’t feel it’s too big a deal compared to Super Mario RPG’s new mechanics in comparison. But uh yeah, we’ll see. Mainly just happy to be back. I wasn’t originally planning to replay this since I just replayed it two years ago, but all of the enthusiasm on Fami got to me haha. Eager to play a ton tomorrow!

 

[Weiss]

Doing a 10HP run has been so fun. It took me years to realize that the Paper Mario games were only too easy for me because I neglected how it gives you total control of your stat progression.

10HP, 25FP, and everything else has gone into BP. It's the ideal way to play.

 

[Cheetah6442]

Only really properly started this tonight and I’m not too far yet as I only reached the first room in Hooktail’s Castle. Always loved this game so stepping back in feels super cozy so far. I don’t have too many impressions yet, but noticed some of the changes. I’m indifferent on the new graphics. At times it looks quite nice, sometimes it looks too shiny, and other times I feel that 30 FPS strongly mostly in the bigger rooms like Rogueport Plaza where moving quickly causes some blurriness. I would have probably preferred a straight port of the original on the graphics front for the tradeoffs here, but thankfully not a big deal. The new music is very cool, probably my favorite part so far. Familiar tracks get whole new elements added and it feels exciting and fresh. I’m most looking forward to hearing the new battle themes as I go. Finally for now, the new Superguard window does indeed feel overly generous. I infrequently used it on the Gamecube version and here it feels like a reliable tool which will upset my approach to the game somewhat. I could always make select use of it, so I don’t feel it’s too big a deal compared to Super Mario RPG’s new mechanics in comparison. But uh yeah, we’ll see. Mainly just happy to be back. I wasn’t originally planning to replay this since I just replayed it two years ago, but all of the enthusiasm on Fami got to me haha. Eager to play a ton tomorrow!

If you don't mind me asking, what is your opinion on the visuals and graphics of the game?

 

[AstroOhHey]

TOK's boat chapter ruled. It was the quintessential summer vibes chapter and a lovely homage to Wind Waker. If I can enjoy chapters where you're stuck in the same area for an hour or have to go backtrack several times, I can enjoy a game where you're just assimilating the atmosphere while traveling to islands.

But anyway, writing,


The "issue" (and I stress these finger quotes because it's not actually an issue, it simply highlights that TTYD is a game with very specific intentions) with TTYD's delving into darker instances is that so much of it is all ephemeral, not particularly explorative, primarily textural, and in some cases, mainly there for the sake of being funny.

You bring up Koops and Admiral Bobbery, both are introduced into the game with their overall motivations being at the forefront of their characters. It serves as some basic flavor to help you like them more, but in both cases they end up undercutting the heaviest elements of their stories with jokes. In Koops' case you find out that his dad might be dead, and then it wastes not a whole lot of seconds to reveal that "oh silly, that's not actually your dad". Admiral Bobbery is a similar case where the bartender's dialogue rather insincerely prefaces Bobbery's backstory with an "it's so sad you might actually cry" comment as if the player genuinely has this investment about someone they just met, and when Bobbery later seems to be on death's door and thinking about how he'll finally reunite with his lost wife, it turns out he's just asleep and you need to whack him on the head. TTYD is at its core a wacky lighthearted story that is always doing its plot in service of making you smile, laugh, and have fun. The stakes can feel serious but they never really fully commit to a lasting impact. Even (huge lategame spoilers) the death of TEC is undone in the postgame; all the good guys get a unanimously happy ending and the bad guys basically get a stern "no more evildoing, okay?"

Contrast that to TOK where permanence of positive and negative events is a very real thing because the entire thematic through-line of the game is built around the dichotomy of Olivia and Olly's lived experience. The loss of a partner isn't undercut by a joke, but is instead given an entire sequence about having to heal from it because the game recognizes there were a lot of moments they shared together, both mandatory and optional. There's a nice and quiet existential mystery behind discovering why Olivia and Olly were created (great sequence that only makes me want a Paper Mario & Luigi even more btw). Hell, one of the most poignant moments in the game has Bowser attempting to comfort Olivia (in his own way) by stressing that being a parent has made him more fearless against adversity. It all culminates in an excellently bittersweet close.

Now as said before, I think TTYD is good at conveying the vibe of the moment, and at no point should its aversion to downer permanence be seen as a flaw, because it's a Saturday morning cartoon that's a million miles per minute conjuring up fun things to make you smile. That all being said it's why I still feel that the people who work on writing and conveying the games' stories have grown more adept in balancing tone to bring about narratives that can make you feel the whole spectrum of lasting feelings -- and as I argued in my other post that extends to the humor. It loses in having a wider variety of individually unique casting, and outside of a few chapters it might be more conventional in locales and b-plots, but I feel pretty confident in saying that a new Paper Mario which can bring back a more liberally inventive approach to these things has all the potential of significantly one-upping TTYD as an experience from beginning to end, because the last game showed there's areas where they're accomplishing this already.

The motivation and nexus of Origami's King entire plot boils down to the plot-twist that the main villain doesn't know how to read. I'm sorry but like, even SS/CS's very thin plots still had the basic 'Mario needs to defeat Bowser and rescue Peach' template so you can avoid the plot whiplash equivalent of an enormous wet fart TOK unfortunately ends on. People overstate Huey dying or whatever in CS's ending but that game's plot is under no pretense for what it is. It isn't bogged down with an 'Evil Huey' who's wants to destroy all paint because a shocking plot-twist at the end reveals they were colorblind/liked the taste of paint and then the game sincerely expects you to be fully emotionally invested.

These these things are down to interpretation and I like TOK's writing as a whole, but I absolutely do not see where you're coming from about its emotional beats for it, or for TTYD. It's still very much a low-stakes, comedic adventure like the prior games (mostly) are, and the random incidental NPC dialog/the gag scene with the bones in Ch1 don't really undo the arcs Bobbery/Koops have in TTYD compared to how one of the biggest plotbeats completely undermines TOK's namesake. Even the Bobby death is sort of undercut by immediately swapping to happy goofy Monty Mole caves where everyone's cheerfully working away; he obviously had an arc (which can NOT be said for some of the other partners who just 'exist'), but I feel like I'm missing something here if there's a meaningful message trying to be conveyed beyond 'it's sad Bobby died' and 'Olly is mean'. You can start looking into Olly and Olivia's relationship as part of TOK's wider themes (though I really think this is at best on the same level as Vivian's relationship to Beldam), but while Olivia is very likable, I sincerely think Olly is one of the worst villains in the entire Mario IP. I can't engage with whatever themes of family they were potentially trying to build up there when one half of it is saddled with moronic motivations and their personality being quite literally "I'm evil >". Even as far as kids media go, he's a very simplistic character.

I wouldn't argue the original trilogy is particularly deep either, though uh, really long stretches of nothing happening narrative-wise in TOK and the well-worn over issues with modern PM's worldbuilding/characters debates make me question how it's on the same level of TTYD/Super, let alone somehow deeper. I've seen a lot of "Oh the old games had actual plots? :O" style reactions on twitter for people playing TTYD for the first time who still seem like genuine fans of TOK and I think that speaks absolute volumes about where both games' priorities and appeal to players lie.

Long story short, a new Paper Mario could learn a lot from Origami King (namely level design), but I would personally not even remotely look at the narrative/character side of things over the old trilogy. It's obviously vastly better in the context of SS/CS for sure, but I think otherwise an interesting premise that quickly falls into a pretty bland Mario story routine with admittedly stand-out set pieces when compared to most other story-driven Mario games.

 

[WestEgg]

A reminder that this thread is about Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door.

 

[Decoyman]

The motivation and nexus of Origami's King entire plot boils down to the plot-twist that the main villain doesn't know how to read. I'm sorry but like, even SS/CS's very thin plots still had the basic 'Mario needs to defeat Bowser and rescue Peach' template so you can avoid the plot whiplash equivalent of an enormous wet fart TOK unfortunately ends on. People overstate Huey dying or whatever in CS's ending but that game's plot is under no pretense for what it is. It isn't bogged down with an 'Evil Huey' who's wants to destroy all paint because a shocking plot-twist at the end reveals they were colorblind/liked the taste of paint and then the game sincerely expects you to be fully emotionally invested.

These these things are down to interpretation and I like TOK's writing as a whole, but I absolutely do not see where you're coming from about its emotional beats for it, or for TTYD. It's still very much a low-stakes, comedic adventure like the prior games (mostly) are, and the random incidental NPC dialog/the gag scene with the bones in Ch1 don't really undo the arcs Bobbery/Koops have in TTYD compared to how one of the biggest plotbeats completely undermines TOK's namesake. Even the Bobby death is sort of undercut by immediately swapping to happy goofy Monty Mole caves where everyone's cheerfully working away; he obviously had an arc (which can NOT be said for some of the other partners who just 'exist'), but I feel like I'm missing something here if there's a meaningful message trying to be conveyed beyond 'it's sad Bobby died' and 'Olly is mean'. You can start looking into Olly and Olivia's relationship as part of TOK's wider themes (though I really think this is at best on the same level as Vivian's relationship to Beldam), but while Olivia is very likable, I sincerely think Olly is one of the worst villains in the entire Mario IP. I can't engage with whatever themes of family they were potentially trying to build up there when one half of it is saddled with moronic motivations and their personality being quite literally "I'm evil >". Even as far as kids media go, he's a very simplistic character.

I wouldn't argue the original trilogy is particularly deep either, though uh, really long stretches of nothing happening narrative-wise in TOK and the well-worn over issues with modern PM's worldbuilding/characters debates make me question how it's on the same level of TTYD/Super, let alone somehow deeper. I've seen a lot of "Oh the old games had actual plots? :O" style reactions on twitter for people playing TTYD for the first time who still seem like genuine fans of TOK and I think that speaks absolute volumes about where both games' priorities and appeal to players lie.

Long story short, a new Paper Mario could learn a lot from Origami King (namely level design), but I would personally not even remotely look at the narrative/character side of things over the old trilogy. It's obviously vastly better in the context of SS/CS for sure, but I think otherwise an interesting premise that quickly falls into a pretty bland Mario story routine with admittedly stand-out set pieces when compared to most other story-driven Mario games.

I'd love to continue this discussion in earnest on several points that I either seem to not have clarified enough somehow on why I find TOK's writing to be excellent, but since as per the staff decree we're sticking to TTYD, I'll just recommend KingK's analysis on it and leave it at that as far as that game is concerned since I feel several of his points echo my own.

Ultimately what I've argued since the start is that Vivian is by and far the stellar exception of how TTYD builds compelling characters beyond just a strong design and basic backstory, because she's in the game long enough for a visible change to occur within the character, and that change spans across several chapters as opposed to a pocket within a greater b-plot. That reference point for her is something the series has leaned in on for the better in several subsequent titles, and they take advantage of those same longer ongoing stories that aren't afraid to get meditative at times, both through visuals and writing, spanning a spectrum of comedy and drama. I don't think TTYD was ever the final form of their narrative chops, and we still haven't reached that, even though they've getting closer to understanding that through its myriad set pieces that it makes me excited for the day when they do decide to have as many interesting new spins on locales and cast as this game did.

 

[Stopdoor]

Yeah ok, I'm not sure if we are playing the same game.

Spoiler (TTYD) addressing your claim:

It actually does happen in TTYD (death). Actually a few. I won't tell you who.

+ many of the partners have melancholic backstories

Koops and his dad....

Flurrie is a retired actress... who finds renewed passion in the wilderness thanks to the punies.

Vivian is abused by her sisters... and finds acceptance from a crew that is actually nice to her.

Admiral Bobbery's wife died.... he mourns her loss.. he feels it is his fault which causes him to give up on his passion...


Did you get the game yet? It sounds like you either just started TTYD or haven't played it yet.

Just want to say that yes, I've played the game before and am playing it again now. I mostly just thought it was a bit much to ignore that specific example when describing TTYD as more "melancholic". @Decoyman 's post excellently fleshes it out in a similar way to how I feel, but I'd also agree, I'm not really trying to rag on the game, just defend the things Origami King impressed me with. I think most of us would say there's a perfect world here with the strengths of both games.

A reminder that this thread is about Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door.

Sorry, I know Paper Mario debates get heated here, but it feels fair to be doing comparisons unless things actually get into personal attacks? At least right now there's less emotional fear the old games are going to be ignored forever. I don't really need to get deeper into it but it seems a shame to say "shut it down" to going into as much comparative depth as @Decoyman .

 

[BassForever]

Her basic attack pierces defense but I can't remember if it did that in the original.

It did, and it's worthless there too. Maybe if someone makes a hard romhack where enemies run around with like 20 defense and are immune to items, yoshi gulp, bombery explosions, etc, then Mowz's pierce would be useful.

Edit: Mowz is borderline "don't even bother getting", the only thing she has any value for is 100% completion without a guide for star pieces. The odds of an enemy holding an item or badge you actually want to steal is comically low, but that is a niche she has nobody else can fill. Her other moves are terrible, dizzy is a weak status to waste a turn casting, and smooch is far too expensive for how little it heals. The only use for Smooch is memes where you use Smooch to manipulate FP and then swap Mario to 1 hp for peril strats.

 

[SiG]

Finished Chapter 2. I'm taking my sweet time with this game.

Only up to chapter 2 due to work obligations but still having a fantastic time. They're not HUGE changes but stuff like chapter specific themes, new character themes for everyone, voices, etc. really help elevate a game I already loved a ton.


As someone who thinks the lack of world-building/elaborate plots and hoard of generic toads/designs in the last few games (to be fair TOK tries to break out of this significantly) were arguably a bigger issue than moving away from being a JRPG, I'm really not seeing the issue with the new NPC's here. TTYD already had 'generic' toads, the thing is more they weren't the only NPC's populating the world. Hell even having the mouses from Yoshi's Island as a new NPC is lightyears ahead of the NSMB-only cast the modern Paper Mario's seemed stuck working with.

I'm fine if future Paper Mario's are a bit more restrictive in the sense of like, 'no new species' (every new Mario game introduces so many new enemy types you have tons to work with now anyway) or something like female Toads have to adhere to Toadette's base design. The first three PM's came out before Nintendo really started establishing a set design guideline for the Mario world most games followed, I get it. The issue is when it gets so extreme that you have situations like TOK where it makes it fairly clear it's meant to be in the same world as PM64/TTYD with its call-backs but then you're questioning where all the named characters went and why there aren't female/child toads anymore. I get the toads are basically the smurfs now with Toadette being Smurfette but it's still really weird/off-putting to me lmao.

If things had been looser with what SS/CS/TOK had to work with I feel like we'd have seen 3DWorld/Odyssey species as NPC's or they'd even branch out to other adjacent franchises like they did with YI's enemies with like, kremlings or something. Classic PM really excelled at building up Mario's world with what the wider library of Mario/Mario-adjacent games offered.

As I've said, I don't think the restrictions were there to begin with. If you looked at the concept art, they clearly had carte blanche to go with a more experimental/pre-Sticker Star approach with original cast members, even able to give them original names. The Battle Master was shown to be looking like some sort of Guile-esq figure initially, appart from the typical Old Master trope we've seen. They most likely ended up with the more "conservative" Toad-in-robe without the typical "Old Master features" as to not to intimidate players who wish to try out the new Action Command practice mode (probably as a result from playtesting. Think of players being approached by a "Pai Mei" figure versus one who is more..."Ip Man")...That, and the mohawk Toad concept does resemble Knuckle Joe from the Kirby series a bit too much, hence the choice they went with.

As for Ian Foomus, that's definitely not something we'd see if such mandates were in place at all. Then there's also the various old and newer concept art of other characters who have completely conceptualized sprites prepared, such as Kroop's wife, the wanted Koopa gang, etc.

I think the biggest problem with the post-Sticker Star era of Paper Mario games was the homogenization of its cast. Granted, TOK had moments where particular other Toads got more characterization to them than other NPCs, but I feel like not being able to name them or give unique identities really does hamper the connection a player would make to its cast, almost making them feel like one-note gags especially when compared to memorable Goombella and Professor Frankly. (There are exceptions, of course. See my avatar.)

Speaking of species, what exactly are Madame Flurry and The Three Shadows suppose to be? Are they ghosts or something?

 

[WestEgg]

Speaking of species, what exactly are Madame Flurry and The Three Shadows suppose to be? Are they ghosts or something?

Flurrie is something akin to a wind spirit who describes the setting as a “negative reflection of the real world”, so she’s kind of just alien in general.

The Shadows are more akin to Yokai and are implied to be of the same species as the Shadow Queen, who is explicitly called a demon.

In both cases, I don’t think they’re undead or anything like that, just another type of creature.