Pre-Release Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door (2024) — Pre-release Discussion Thread

[VintoWin]

I feel like complaining about the existence of musical references to previous Paper Mario games is kind of past the point of being “respectful” and dips into “ridiculous” territory, especially with the excessive use of cringe emojis. Like, it seems obvious that the intent of that was to be dramatically negative about newer Paper Mario games and rile up the fans of said games, so I’m not surprised that a lot of people are responding to it as such.

But also it’s been proven time and time again that people just can’t talk about Paper Mario without the discussion inevitably devolving into old Paper Mario vs. new Paper Mario, so this will always happen regardless.

---

Anyway, I’m personally loving the improvements to the game, especially the music! Don’t really mind the frame rate being 30 fps ’cause that frame rate is totally fine for slower paced games like this (and even then frame rate isn’t gonna stop me from enjoying a game I’m interested in), and I’d much rather the game have all of its new visual upgrades than for those to be toned down in order for it to reach 60 fps. As others have said, it’s a turn-based RPG; it doesn’t need to be 60 fps, and honestly targeting that above all else would feel wasteful to me.

He's a classic Paper Mario fan to the point where he doesn't want anything changed at all, literally.

I'm a classic Paper Mario fan and this remake looks absolutely incredible and is finally a chance for us to get RPGs again.

I think it kinda gives us insight into how they might design the next Paper Mario RPG.

I think people complaining about this remake (to the point where they are saying "I'm not buying this") are few and far between to be completely honest with you. And hard agree, the complaints are pretty weird and nitpicky for a franchise that was literally dead for 20 years and this is his chance to bring it back. But somehow it's not good enough.

 

[Hailinel]

I feel like complaining about the existence of musical references to previous Paper Mario games is kind of past the point of being “respectful” and dips into “ridiculous” territory, especially with the excessive use of cringe emojis. Like, it seems obvious that the intent of that was to be dramatically negative about newer Paper Mario games and rile up the fans of said games, so I’m not surprised that a lot of people are responding to it as such.

But also it’s been proven time and time again that people just can’t talk about Paper Mario without the discussion inevitably devolving into old Paper Mario vs. new Paper Mario, so this will always happen regardless.

And it's doubly ridiculous on that front when the game has an easy to unlock GCN OST. But then it swerves into complaints that text box sound effects don't have their own individual toggle.

I can understand soundtrack complaints to an extent. A lot of Nier fans were annoyed that the original OST wasn't in Replicant (which swapped the soundtrack out for dynamic remixes) and was never made an option even as DLC. But the GCN soundtrack is right there in the shop. And if your #1 complaint about TTYD remake's OST is that it references later games...well, tough shit, I guess? It's a petty complaint.

 

[VDenter]

Idk why some people are obsessed with 60 FPS for a turn based RPG. lol.

If your argument is "superguarding will be harder"... I mean I wanted the game to be harder so I think it should be harder and idk what the problem with that would be lol.

Because it plays better regardless of genre and motion resolution is higher. Modern sample and hold flat panel display blur when there is any scrolling movement on screen and higher framerates offset that blur, The higher the framerate the less blur there is. At higher framerates, the game simply plays better, you get a more responsive game, and it looks better when the game is running in motion. It’s not just a case of this being an RPG so it doesn’t benefit from having 60FPS. It's an argument I’ve never agreed with.

Although, this is a case it shouldn't even be up for discussion. The original was 60FPS as were many other remakes and some that were more technically impressive on Switch. We can speculate all day why they went with this but it's objectively inferior to the original, if you don't care that's fine but frankly having remakes run worse is a deal breaker by default. It’s why I skipped on Link’s Awakening remake.

 

[Hocot8]

Can we move on? I'd love to not have to put another paper mario thread on ignore lol.

 

[Jersh]

Idk why some people are obsessed with 60 FPS for a turn based RPG. lol.

I personally find 60 fps to just look better in nearly any video game context, it's not entirely about responsiveness for me. Smoother motion looks good in and of itself. I don't view it as trading responsiveness for image quality, but as trading one thing that looks good for other things that look good.

This is something I think gets a bit lost sometimes with how much response time is cited as why higher frame rates are important. I'm aware some people legitimately struggle to tell 30 fps and 60 fps apart when they're not side-by-side, but for those of us who can tell at a glance - 60 fps is generally more pleasing to the eye. I think I personally would've preferred somewhat toned down lighting effects (things like the reflections are nice, but don't really add much for me as I find them a touch out of place) in favor of 60 fps, but it depends a bit on what compromises would've been necessary to get there. I look forward to mods that play around with the framerate, and I'm curious how close the game gets to 60 as-is on Switch hardware when left uncapped.

I don't agree with @VDenter's conclusion that a lower framerate in a remake is untenable by default and I still expect to prefer the Switch version of the game by a fair margin, but 60 fps would've been nice to have and I feel dismissing it as a turn based RPG misses the point of why I feel that way. I also do agree with the notion that the original does set some sort of standard, even though I also feel it's totally reasonable for that standard to not be 100% met across the board.

If your argument is "superguarding will be harder"... I mean I wanted the game to be harder so I think it should be harder and idk what the problem with that would be lol.

I expect it to feel different in a way that's hard to quite put your finger on, and it'll likely take me a while to adjust.

Here's a quote from Nintendo Life on the subject:

At first, this took us a moment to adjust to, particularly in combat where you have to time button-presses – our brains somehow remember the timing of the original release – but overall the reduced frame rate hasn’t been detrimental to the experience for us.

I think that adjustment will depend somewhat on how ingrained in your memory the timings are, which for me is quite strong. Maybe I'll figure it out quickly, or maybe I'll be fighting it the whole game. It's hard to say. Either way, I know I won't quite like actively thinking about the fact that the timing is different, and on superguard misses I'll often be thinking about whether I just got it wrong or if I would've had it in the original, but I'd prefer it if that didn't enter my mind at all. Though at the end of the day, I expect to agree that it won't be detrimental; I did get through a 100% run of Paper Mario on NSO and greatly enjoyed it, after all, despite higher input delay and whatever you want to call that mess of a Lava Piranha fight.

 

[VDenter]

He's a classic Paper Mario fan to the point where he doesn't want anything changed at all, literally.

No, not really. If they added substantial additions like making the level design better or make the game harder as an option or make the visuals so unbelievably good that it justifies the downgraded performance, I wouldn’t really be that disappointed. But right now, it feels like Nintendo is selling me something I already owned for 20 years again but it runs worse for no good reason.

think it kinda gives us insight into how they might design the next Paper Mario RPG.

This Just looks to me like you have blind faith. At this point, i have no reason to expect them to make a follow up to TTYD. The existence of this remake hasn't filled me with any hope on that front.

He's a classic Paper Mario fan to the point where he doesn't want anything changed at all, literally.

I'm a classic Paper Mario fan and this remake looks absolutely incredible and is finally a chance for us to get RPGs again.

I think it kinda gives us insight into how they might design the next Paper Mario RPG.

I think people complaining about this remake (to the point where they are saying "I'm not buying this") are few and far between to be completely honest with you. And hard agree, the complaints are pretty weird and nitpicky for a franchise that was literally dead for 20 years and this is his chance to bring it back. But somehow it's not good enough.

Huh? So I should give Nintendo my money just to get a copy of a game that I already own and played to death, and this new version runs worse and has some changes that I don't particularly like, just on the off chance they might give me the thing I actually want next time?

Nah, sorry this is some backwards logic. I don’t owe Nintendo jack shit and they aren’t entitled to money, and I certainly don’t have to buy this remake just to hope they give me a true TTYD sequel next time in four or five years.

Not playing that game again with this franchise. I have already been burned one too many times. For all I know the next game is another Origami King and I have no reason to think otherwise untill the day they announce a new Paper Mario game and it's a turn bassed RPG in the same vein as the first two.

 

[Hailinel]

I will say that, as far as blanket FPS arguments are concerned, higher is not universally better for everyone. A friend of mine gets terribly motion sick from a lot of modern, 60fps games, especially depending on the camera and on-screen effects. Kingdom Hearts 3 was unplayable to a point she'd get motion sick from just a few minutes of some of the game's worlds.

 

[VintoWin]

Huh? So I should give Nintendo my money just to get a copy of a game that I already own and played to death, and this new version runs worse and has some changes that I don't particularly like, just on the off chance they might give me the thing I actually want next time?

Nah, sorry this is some backwards logic. I don’t owe Nintendo jack shit and they aren’t entitled to money, and I certainly don’t have to buy this remake just to hope they give me a true TTYD sequel next time in four or five years.

Not playing that game again with this franchise. I have already been burned one too many times. For all I know the next game is another Origami King and I have no reason to think otherwise untill the day they announce a new Paper Mario game and it's a turn bassed RPG in the same vein as the first two.

No, you don't owe them anything. But I think it's time you checked out of this franchise because this is basically the last chance for it.

Or you can hope the rest of us and our hype for it will bring about the next Paper Mario on Switch 2 where it will likely be 60 FPS.

 

[Brofield]

Switch 2 patch reveals 60 fps boost for free, coming for the one year anniversary of the game.

Everyone's happy!

 

[Jersh]

I will say that, as far as blanket FPS arguments are concerned, higher is not universally better for everyone. A friend of mine gets terribly motion sick from a lot of modern, 60fps games, especially depending on the camera and on-screen effects. Kingdom Hearts 3 was unplayable to a point she'd get motion sick from just a few minutes of some of the game's worlds.

While this is true, low framerates can do this as well. I think stable 30 causing issues is probably the rarest thing, but motion sickness varies greatly in cause and intensity from person to person; I don't believe 30 fps is inherently more "safe" in terms of accessibility in a broad sense (especially if it drops), though I may be mistaken here (I'm pretty sure I experience 0 motion sickness - I can tolerate poor VR implementations for hours on end with no issues, and have never once felt sick looking at a screen to my recollection - so my knowledge here is purely from others).

I wonder if a display with a fixed 30 Hz refresh rate (or the option to cap at 30) would help your friend out.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

Something I've been thinking since getting a 4K set but I don't hear much about elsewhere is that a higher frame rate is more important with higher resoluton. Reason being, the actual change of an object between two frames is many more pixels, and so more noticeable (if you can appreciate that resolution to begin with). Here is a crude example I've made with four resolutions differing by powers of two. Say they're stand-ins for 270p, 540p, 1080p, 2160p, whatever. The Mario head on the left moves up 1 pixel per frame. The next Mario head moves up 2 pixels per frame, then 4 pixels per frame, then 8 pixels per frame. Bigger gaps.

Now if we were to imagine for some crazy reason that the higher res versions were operating at only half the frame rate, the problem is exacerbated. Now the third Mario head is moving 8 pixels per frame and the fourth is moving 16.

Pretty much... and we are talking about a turn based RPG here. Not Monster Hunter lol

Once you add in a bunch of timed button presses "it's turn based" falls kind of flat. It's not an NES Final Fantasy or Dragon Quest.

 

[lattjeful]

Can’t say I’m thrilled about having references to modern PM games in TTYD. Being reminded of those games at all is but then putting a reminder of them in TTYD is extra

I have never seen a fanbase get so up in arms over what are mid games at worst quite like Paper Mario fans.

 

[Mekanos]

60fps vs. 30fps is a dumb argument. You generally don't notice the difference anyway if the game feel is good, which is something Nintendo usually is pretty good with.

The argument pretty much only matters for PvP multiplayer games where 30 vs 60 directly impacts your ability to react to other players. For single player, the difference is negligible. Keep in mind that there's plenty of games that ran at 20 fps or lower back in the early 3d days and those games ran just fine.

The main thing I'm worried about on that end are FPS drops, not if it hits some arbitrary number.

In a game with a critical game mechanic linked to frame-perfect button inputs, it’s pretty important. That said, I expect it won’t take too long to get used to the new Superguard timing.

 

[Steve]

I have never seen a fanbase get so up in arms over what are mid games at worst quite like Paper Mario fans.

meanwhile there’s me who thinks Super paper Mario is the best Paper game.

Which I think is the most controversial one because it started the stage of paper Mario decline of quality, until origami’s king.

 

[VDenter]

I have never seen a fanbase get so up in arms over what are mid games at worst quite like Paper Mario fans.

It wouldn't be such a big deal honestly if there wasn't just one entry per console generation and the old style wasn't completely supplanted. The first two games set a high bar.

If PM were getting several entries per console generation, you wouldn't generally be hearing this much complaining. Even if some entries were just as divisive.

Also, your millage may vary but I consider something like Sticker Star way below mid tier, and I bought a 3DS primarily for that game.

 

[lattjeful]

honestly i'd be pretty upset about the 30 FPS thing too if it were a different genre

I can live with it here since it's turn based but like lets just say there's a reason i've never played Astral Chain

Honestly Astral Chain feels really responsive. Not sure how they did it, but I didn't really notice the 30 FPS tbh.

meanwhile there’s me who thinks Super paper Mario is the best Paper game.

Which I think is the most controversial one because it started the stage of paper Mario decline of quality, until origami’s king.

And you would be objectively correct!

It wouldn't be such a big deal honestly if there wasn't just one entry per console generation and the old style wasn't completely supplanted. The first two games set a high bar.

If PM were getting several entries per console generation, you wouldn't generally be hearing this much complaining. Even if some entries were just as divisive.

Also, your millage may vary but I consider something like Sticker Star way below mid tier, and I bought a 3DS primarily for that game.

Yeah I get ya. Maybe my standards are low, or maybe the state of gaming in 2024 has made me easier to please compared to 2012, but Sticker Star is just mid to me.

 

[VintoWin]

It just feels like this is one of those "we can't change it" and "we knew what to expect" situations....

The hardware is Switch for crying out loud. It's not the developer's fault. We need new hardware.

30 FPS is not going to stop me from buying a beautiful remake of a game I love and want to support.
The visuals are completely redone. Some seem to never care about discussing the fidelity/visuals. Why is it only the FPS.

 

[Cheetah6442]

It just feels like this is one of those "we can't change it" and "we knew what to expect" situations....

The hardware is Switch for crying out loud. It's not the developer's fault. We need new hardware.

30 FPS is not going to stop me from buying a beautiful remake of a game I love and want to support.
The visuals are completely redone. Some seem to never care about discussing the fidelity/visuals. Why is it only the FPS.

Nah, it's most definitely because of what engine the TTYD remake is running on and the fact the last three Paper Mario games were all 30fps. The current team just doesn't think having 60fps is essential for the games and they been had this mindset since 2012.

 

[VintoWin]

Nah, it's most definitely because of what engine the TTYD remake is running on and the fact the last three Paper Mario games were all 30fps. The current team just doesn't think having 60fps is essential for the games and they been had this mindset since 2012.

So you think these games are not pushing the hardware.

I was under the impression that if they wanted to aim for 60 FPS, they'd have to tune down the graphical fidelity of the game.

 

[SpaceGodzilla]

a lot of arguing for something normal people don't give a shit about

 

[JazzyFuture]

So you think these games are not pushing the hardware.

I was under the impression that if they wanted to aim for 60 FPS, they'd have to tune down the graphical fidelity of the game.

I'd say that Intelligent Systems has prioritized visuals over framerate, which feels like the opposite of what they said.

Lighting looks even more gorgeous here than Origami King's did, which is probably because they could squeeze more out of the game because it's a lot of small areas designed for GameCube compared to Origami King's much larger ones.

 

[VDenter]

So you think these games are not pushing the hardware.

I was under the impression that if they wanted to aim for 60 FPS, they'd have to tune down the graphical fidelity of the game.

It's not like the Switch is a toaster from 1986.

The hardware is not pushed that far with these TTYD visuals. When you have games like Super Mario Odyssey, Metroid Prime Remastered, Mario Kart 8 Deluxe, 3D World, DKCTF, Mario Wonder all running at 1080p60fps and displaying incredible visuals then something iffy is going on.

Either the devs chose to make this 30FPS to line up with modern games, or it’s like other people have speculated that this new Paper Mario engine is capped for some bizarre reason to 30FPS. Which is also something that doesn't make much sense to me. Why would you design your engine like tihs?

Anyways, I don't believe the hardware is at fault here. At least not fully. Yes it's not exactly a beast by modern standards but you can't sit there and tell me that these visuals are so taxing on the system that 60FPS is out of the question.

 

[Hocot8]

Can we move on? I'd love to not have to put another paper mario thread on ignore lol.

Guess not.

Y'all just want to argue.

 

[Mekanos]

a lot of arguing for something normal people don't give a shit about

That’s what video game forums are all about

 

[Cheetah6442]

It's not like the Switch is a toaster from 1986.

The hardware is not pushed that far with these TTYD visuals. When you have games like Super Mario Odyssey, Metroid Prime Remastered, Mario Kart 8 Deluxe, 3D World, DKCTF, Mario Wonder all running at 1080p60fps and displaying incredible visuals then something iffy is going on.

Either the devs chose to make this 30FPS to line up with modern games, or it’s like other people have speculated that this new Paper Mario engine is capped for some bizarre reason to 30FPS. Which is also something that doesn't make much sense to me. Why would you design your engine like tihs?

Anyways, I don't believe the hardware is at fault here. At least not fully. Yes it's not exactly a beast by modern standards but you can't sit there and tell me that these visuals are so taxing on the system that 60FPS is out of the question.

It's definitely the former. The current Paper Mario team has held the 30fps mindset since 2012 and since Color Splash, visual and graphical videlity has taken more of a priority over performance. After Color Splash, they push the visual boundaries more with the Origami King and even further now with the TTYD remake. It's a deliberate choice from the dev team and with this in mind, I don't expect this mindset to change with the next new Paper Mario game unless the dev team changes or their technical philosophy changes.

Edit 1: Also yeah, we seriously need to move on from this talking point people. No need to continue to dogpile VDenter for his opinions, even if we strongly disagree with his opinions on this game.
Edit 2: Also, like the mod below me said, I hope you're not implying some "lazy dev" rhetoric here.

 

[ngpdrew]

It's not like the Switch is a toaster from 1986.

The hardware is not pushed that far with these TTYD visuals. When you have games like Super Mario Odyssey, Metroid Prime Remastered, Mario Kart 8 Deluxe, 3D World, DKCTF, Mario Wonder all running at 1080p60fps and displaying incredible visuals then something iffy is going on.

Either the devs chose to make this 30FPS to line up with modern games, or it’s like other people have speculated that this new Paper Mario engine is capped for some bizarre reason to 30FPS. Which is also something that doesn't make much sense to me. Why would you design your engine like tihs?

Anyways, I don't believe the hardware is at fault here. At least not fully. Yes it's not exactly a beast by modern standards but you can't sit there and tell me that these visuals are so taxing on the system that 60FPS is out of the question.

Are you trying to call the devs lazy? We have rules about that.

 

[RochHoch]

In my entire life, I've never once cared or paid any attention whatsoever to the difference between 30fps and 60fps, and I just wish people would shut up about it already

 

[VDenter]

Are you trying to call the devs lazy? We have rules about that.

I didn't call them lazy. I'm not even sure how you could possibly get that from my post???

Questioning why they went with the decisions they did is not calling them lazy.

 

[Hailinel]

I didn't call them lazy. I'm not even sure how you could possibly get that from my post???

Questioning why they went with the decisions they did is not calling them lazy.

You're basically implying the game isn't 60fps because the devs didn't put in the effort.

 

[T-Hell]

In my entire life, I've never once cared or paid any attention whatsoever to the difference between 30fps and 60fps, and I just wish people would shut up about it already

Lucky you then. For some of us, once you get used to the 60s is very hard to go back.

 

[VDenter]

You're basically implying the game isn't 60fps because the devs didn't put in the effort.

Oh please, cut me fucking break already. I can't roll my eyes harder at your posts. At no point did imply that. In fact i've re read my post several times, and yep still don't see it. Me speculating for why a remake isn't 60fps when the original was and far more technically impressive switch games are, is not me calling the devs lazy. I just didn't appreciate people acting like the Switch hardware was at fault. When for all we know it could be just a design decision to make the game like the new ones or it's the "engine" like the other user speculated.

You would have to have the most uncharitable read of my post to reach that conclusion that I was calling the devs lazy, which btw Hailinel is something I’ve noticed you like to do quite a lot. Kind of weird ngl.

 

[Hailinel]

You would have to have the most uncharitable read of my post to reach that conclusion that I was calling the devs lazy, which btw Hailinel is something I’ve noticed you like to do quite a lot. Kind of weird ngl.

I wasn't the first to make that inference regarding your post, but go off.

 

[Jersh]

It just feels like this is one of those "we can't change it" and "we knew what to expect" situations....

The hardware is Switch for crying out loud. It's not the developer's fault. We need new hardware.

30 FPS is not going to stop me from buying a beautiful remake of a game I love and want to support.
The visuals are completely redone. Some seem to never care about discussing the fidelity/visuals. Why is it only the FPS.

Yes, it's the Switch, but it's also a fixed-perspective game built for the GameCube. There's no need to act like 60 fps is impossible on this hardware, we've gotten plenty of gorgeous games that run at 60 fps. That's just not the route they decided to take, which is a subjective artistic choice. By nature, it's going to be divisive. That's fine, but like any divisive choice, some are going to voice complaints.

As I mentioned in my last post on the subject, the framerate is part of the visuals; the motion smoothness itself has an impact on how the scene looks. For me, commenting on the framerate is commenting on the visual fidelity. I also called out that trading off framerate for other aspects is a tradeoff; I figured it was implicit I felt the additions to the game's visuals do in fact look very good. I didn't think I needed to spell that out, but perhaps that was my mistake.

Nah, it's most definitely because of what engine the TTYD remake is running on and the fact the last three Paper Mario games were all 30fps. The current team just doesn't think having 60fps is essential for the games and they been had this mindset since 2012.

The first sentence doesn't support the second. It's likely not an engine limitation, and even if it was, they'd make the necessary changes to the engine to support 60 fps if they genuinely wanted it (just look at how much love this release is getting; it clearly wasn't something they decided to quickly churn out to fill a release gap). Yes, they're intentionally making it 30 fps as they believe that it's worth the tradeoff for the visuals, but that's not inherently the engine's fault.

The hardware is not pushed that far with these TTYD visuals. When you have games like Super Mario Odyssey, Metroid Prime Remastered, Mario Kart 8 Deluxe, 3D World, DKCTF, Mario Wonder all running at 1080p60fps and displaying incredible visuals then something iffy is going on.

The first two games in that list actually max out at 900p. The rest do hit 1080p, but have some amount of resolution scaling (varies heavily on the game; IIRC, 3D World isn't at 1080p often at all, while MK8D is virtually-but-not-quite-always there) save for DKCTF.



Those things aside, I want to take a second to call out these:

60fps vs. 30fps is a dumb argument. You generally don't notice the difference anyway if the game feel is good, which is something Nintendo usually is pretty good with.

The argument pretty much only matters for PvP multiplayer games where 30 vs 60 directly impacts your ability to react to other players. For single player, the difference is negligible. Keep in mind that there's plenty of games that ran at 20 fps or lower back in the early 3d days and those games ran just fine.

The main thing I'm worried about on that end are FPS drops, not if it hits some arbitrary number.

a lot of arguing for something normal people don't give a shit about

Guess not.

Y'all just want to argue.

In my entire life, I've never once cared or paid any attention whatsoever to the difference between 30fps and 60fps, and I just wish people would shut up about it already

It's genuinely frustrating to be told that I'm nitpicking, or that it doesn't make a difference in this kind of game, or that you don't care and therefore I shouldn't, or I'm weird/trying too hard/missing the forest for the trees by caring (which is the vibe I get from all of these posts).

I've always been able to tell the difference at a glance. Not from training my eyes for it or anything, I can just see it, instantly, and I have a strong preference for smoother motion. I can still remember getting A Link Between Worlds for Christmas 10 years ago and instantly noticing that it was smoother than I was used to Zelda games being (and thinking the smooth motion looked good), well before I actually knew what the cause of that was. I'm not some alien for this; different people just have different sensitivity. I don't necessarily think I'm in the majority, but I also don't think the level of sensitivity I have is particularly uncommon.

Ironically, the only reason I haven't long moved on from this conversation is because I'm essentially being told I'm caring about something I shouldn't, as if I'm not allowed to hold the opinion that smooth motion looks really good. If the posts from the "I don't care" camp were all like @Tye's:

Anyway, I’m personally loving the improvements to the game, especially the music! Don’t really mind the frame rate being 30 fps ’cause that frame rate is totally fine for slower paced games like this (and even then frame rate isn’t gonna stop me from enjoying a game I’m interested in), and I’d much rather the game have all of its new visual upgrades than for those to be toned down in order for it to reach 60 fps. As others have said, it’s a turn-based RPG; it doesn’t need to be 60 fps, and honestly targeting that above all else would feel wasteful to me.

then I wouldn't feel a need to defend myself so strongly. "I value the lighting effects over smoother motion" is a perfectly fine and valid opinion to have, and depending on how big the cutbacks would need to be to get to 60 fps, I might even agree myself despite my appreciation for 60+ fps (again, looking forward to seeing what people do with mods and maybe even messing around myself on my launch unit). But trying to discredit my opinion as being over something that doesn't matter is just rude; framerate is something I notice immediately and personally find to be obvious, though I understand that's not the experience everyone has.

 

[VDenter]

I wasn't the first to make that inference regarding your post, but go off.

You know I’m giving the mod a benefit of a doubt because I don’t think they were asking me in bad faith, but not your post to be completely frank.

 

[ngpdrew]

I didn't call them lazy. I'm not even sure how you could possibly get that from my post???

Questioning why they went with the decisions they did is not calling them lazy.

Just trying to make sure we are keeping it clean; I wasn't positive that was your thesis but I could see why someone might take that away from your post.

 

[Cheetah6442]

Yes, it's the Switch, but it's also a fixed-perspective game built for the GameCube. There's no need to act like 60 fps is impossible on this hardware, we've gotten plenty of gorgeous games that run at 60 fps. That's just not the route they decided to take, which is a subjective artistic choice. By nature, it's going to be divisive. That's fine, but like any divisive choice, some are going to voice complaints.

As I mentioned in my last post on the subject, the framerate is part of the visuals; the motion smoothness itself has an impact on how the scene looks. For me, commenting on the framerate is commenting on the visual fidelity. I also called out that trading off framerate for other aspects is a tradeoff; I figured it was implicit I felt the additions to the game's visuals do in fact look very good. I didn't think I needed to spell that out, but perhaps that was my mistake.


The first sentence doesn't support the second. It's likely not an engine limitation, and even if it was, they'd make the necessary changes to the engine to support 60 fps if they genuinely wanted it (just look at how much love this release is getting; it clearly wasn't something they decided to quickly churn out to fill a release gap). Yes, they're intentionally making it 30 fps as they believe that it's worth the tradeoff for the visuals, but that's not inherently the engine's fault.


The first two games in that list actually max out at 900p. The rest do hit 1080p, but have some amount of resolution scaling (varies heavily on the game; IIRC, 3D World isn't at 1080p often at all, while MK8D is virtually-but-not-quite-always there) save for DKCTF.



Those things aside, I want to take a second to call out these:




It's genuinely frustrating to be told that I'm nitpicking, or that it doesn't make a difference in this kind of game, or that you don't care and therefore I shouldn't, or I'm weird/trying too hard/missing the forest for the trees by caring (which is the vibe I get from all of these posts).

I've always been able to tell the difference at a glance. Not from training my eyes for it or anything, I can just see it, instantly, and I have a strong preference for smoother motion. I can still remember getting A Link Between Worlds for Christmas 10 years ago and instantly noticing that it was smoother than I was used to Zelda games being (and thinking the smooth motion looked good), well before I actually knew what the cause of that was. I'm not some alien for this; different people just have different sensitivity. I don't necessarily think I'm in the majority, but I also don't think the level of sensitivity I have is particularly uncommon.

Ironically, the only reason I haven't long moved on from this conversation is because I'm essentially being told I'm caring about something I shouldn't, as if I'm not allowed to hold the opinion that smooth motion looks really good. If the posts from the "I don't care" camp were all like @Tye's:

then I wouldn't feel a need to defend myself so strongly. "I value the lighting effects over smoother motion" is a perfectly fine and valid opinion to have, and depending on how big the cutbacks would need to be to get to 60 fps, I might even agree myself despite my appreciation for 60+ fps (again, looking forward to seeing what people do with mods and maybe even messing around myself on my launch unit). But trying to discredit my opinion as being over something that doesn't matter is just rude; framerate is something I notice immediately and personally find to be obvious, though I understand that's not the experience everyone has.

I'm not saying it's an engine limitation.

 

[Jersh]

I'm not saying it's an engine limitation.

I'm not sure how to reconcile that with the sentence "it's most definitely because of what engine the TTYD remake is running on".

 

[WonderLuigi]

Let's not pretend a remake downgrading the framerate is fine. It's acceptable maybe, but it's not common practice and it is a factual downgrade.

Edit: Tales of Symphonia's remaster has been dragged for years because of this, people calling the GC game still the definitive edition.

 

[Pringles]

Edit: Tales of Symphonia's remaster has been dragged for years because of this, people calling the GC game still the definitive edition.

Clock it.

 

[Hocot8]

editing out due to staff communication.

 

[Hailinel]

Let's not pretend a remake downgrading the framerate is fine. It's acceptable maybe, but it's not common practice and it is a factual downgrade.

Edit: Tales of Symphonia's remaster has been dragged for years because of this, people calling the GC game still the definitive edition.

The Tales of Symphonia remaster had a lot of issues beyond framerate differences. Let's not pretend they're on even ground here.

 

[ngpdrew]

Let's not pretend a remake downgrading the framerate is fine. It's acceptable maybe, but it's not common practice and it is a factual downgrade.

Edit: Tales of Symphonia's remaster has been dragged for years because of this, people calling the GC game still the definitive edition.

I don't think that's a great example because the Tales of Symphonia release has bigger problems than just its frame rate.

Also, I think it's more complicated than just "lower number = downgrade". A remaster (or remake? (or port?)) is about more than just a game's performance. The developers have chosen to prioritize other elements in their remaster (or remake? (or port?)), and those elements may have required them to lower the frame rate. I think the past two generations have led to the mistaken assumption that a rerelease necessarily means a bump in performance when ultimately its up to the developers whether or not that's a priority.

 

[WonderLuigi]

The Tales of Symphonia remaster had a lot of issues beyond framerate differences. Let's not pretend they're on even ground here.

Yeah I'm sure people would stop complaining about the framerate if they fixed the other problems

I don't think that's a great example because the Tales of Symphonia release has bigger problems than just its frame rate.

Also, I think it's more complicated than just "lower number = downgrade". A remaster (or remake? (or port?)) is about more than just a game's performance. The developers have chosen to prioritize other elements in their remaster (or remake? (or port?)), and those elements may have required them to lower the frame rate. I think the past two generations have led to the mistaken assumption that a rerelease necessarily means a bump in performance when ultimately its up to the developers whether or not that's a priority.

I agree with you that it can be acceptable depending on priorities, but I still think it's a downgrade on one front at the end. I doubt the devs wouldn't do 60 if they could...is what I mean.

 

[Zellia]

Staff Communication

Hi folks,

This thread has become increasingly heated over the past few pages with people talking past each other, making personal attacks and generalizations about specific camps of Paper Mario fans. It's getting increasingly toxic and needs to stop.

While discussing aspects of the remake, both positive and negative, is fine, we ask that you be considerate of people who might disagree with you and keep it civil. If the thread continues to devolve into pages of heated arguments going nowhere, we will take action as appropriate.

- Zellia, Big Lantern Ghost, Lord Azrael, ngpdrew, NabiscoFelt

 

[Cheetah6442]

Yeah I'm sure people would stop complaining about the framerate if they fixed the other problems


I agree with you that it can be acceptable depending on priorities, but I still think it's a downgrade on one front at the end. I doubt the devs wouldn't do 60 if they could...is what I mean.

It's clearly a priority when you look at their past three games, which we're all 30fps.

 

[Mekanos]

Hey I was wondering when we would get a staff post

 

[Lord Azrael]

Hey I was wondering when we would get a staff post

Paper Mario thread and staff post, name a more iconic duo

 

[Cheetah6442]

Hey I was wondering when we would get a staff post

Paper Mario thread and staff post, name a more iconic duo

It really shouldn't have to come to this every single time there's a Paper Mario thread. For some reason, we have to drag the littlest of things on because of simple disagreements. Why is it so hard to agree to disagree and just move on?

 

[Hylianhero777]

All the 30fps complaints will be moot once it gets the completely and totally inevitable 60fps patch on Switch 2 anyway.

...right

(also, has anyone confirmed one way or the other if you are still limited to accepting only one trouble center request at a time? Being able to accept a bunch at once would be great)

 

[ngpdrew]

It really shouldn't have to come to this every single time there's a Paper Mario thread. For some reason, we have to drag the littlest of things on because of simple disagreements. Why is it so hard to agree to disagree and just move on?

I think there's a lot of bad actors in the fandom who occupy positions of power and who also don't care about nuanced discussion. I'll leave it to your imagination who I'm referring to!