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News NieR:Automata The End of YorHa Edition coming to Nintendo Switch on October 6 (UPDATE: reviews are out, see threadmarks)

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One of the few times I was angry at the game for making me feel that way.
yeah, I spent most of the game going "If Pascal dies I'm immediately going from loving this game to hating it" and then they somehow did something worse to him.

I can't think of another character in either Nier who was done so dirty
 
yeah, I spent most of the game going "If Pascal dies I'm immediately going from loving this game to hating it" and then they somehow did something worse to him.

I can't think of another character in either Nier who was done so dirty
Done dirty doesn’t even describe it, to be honest. In general the Nier characters overall have been trampled by the events:

Look at Kainé, who finds friendship with both Daddy Nier and Emil, is a pariah because of who she is.

Emil is tragic too with him turning into the way he is and during the events of Automata he’s so far gone that he can’t remember who he was.

2B and 9S go through their fair amount of shit.

But the robots in general in Automata are… just sad, clueless, helpless and overall lost.
 
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Done dirty doesn’t even describe it, to be honest. In general the Nier characters overall have been trampled by the events:

Look at Kainé, who finds friendship with both Daddy Nier and Emil, is a pariah because of who she is.

Emil is tragic too with him turning into the way he is and during the events of Automata he’s so far gone that he can’t remember who he was.

2B and 9S go through their fair amount of shit.

But the robots in general in Automata are… just sad, clueless, helpless and overall lost.
but they're all, in some way sorta, given a hopeful ending. Kaine finds family despite being ostracized, Emil still has his sweet damn self and his hope for the future even when he's reduced to a head (plus the Emils we find in Automata are clones, lord knows the original might still be somewhere and might be fine), and it looks like 2B, 9S, and A2 will all be repaired. So at least if you get all the way through to ending E on each game, there's hope for the characters. Except for the robots, the most innocent of all the characters in the games, who are just fucked over.

The only bit of hope I really had for the inorganic life (I think the androids are still technically partially organic or something, right? I mean, they bleed) is in ending E of Automata where the Pods are shown to begin developing free will and personality, which fits into and punctuates a theme in the game that, given enough time, behavioral evolution is inevitable even in the machines, and society, family, and culture will eventually grow. So now that the war is over, it can all finally begin in earnest. But that's, like, me fighting hard to see the light in an otherwise bleak and heartbreaking story.

Fuck you, Yoko Taro. 💔💔💔

Also please gift us Nier 3, Yoko Taro. ❤️❤️❤️
 
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Asset duplication is not always the reason. with spider man and generally open world games, where asset streaming needs to be fast, since there cant be load screens, you have a ton of it.

That is also the reason why so many Switch ports are still rather chunky and ofthen between a 1-2 thirds of the original game, even if the resolution is lower.

But here? it seems that for maximum performance gains they redid a lot of the assets?
reducing texture quality cna yield a lot. maybe the sound got a recoding with a different codec, and slightly lower bitrate.
In some areas this can be even without being reconizable, since say some soundeffects never get playes in total silence and are noisy by themselves. those would still be full quality on the original release, because the storage limitations are not as strict that the extra work to differentiate would be worth it.

Man, when the switch was released (or shortly before), even before i started to study, i had a list of games i expect to get ported.
FF1-13 where on it (where is a 13 collection?), Kingdome Hearts, Nier Automata, Persona 5, most Tales of Games,...

Many of that list back then did not get ported in the long run. Many did, some even pretty fast.
FF1-6 are still confusing. The lack of more GC/Wii games is confusing,
i expected a GC emulator in the first year, same with gb/gba...
Nier was a "for shure, since its platinum, and they and nintendo are big buddys, and square also supports the switch with stuff like octopath", and Persona was a "i really could see it, with Persona Q series, SMT5 being anounced, and japan being big on portables / sony not having one for persona ports anymore. But i did not expect it to get ported for shure.
In both cases i did not expect the games to come that late.

And then we have tales of, where we till only have 1... thats the mot bafling decision, since SNES GC and wii as well as every handheld since GBC where getting Tales of games. (Yeah, GBC had the Spinoffs, GBA had a great Phantasia port, DS had its own entries and 3DS got an Abyss port)

I thought, with the power of switch and their connection to nintendo that they would port most of the series, and maybe use it as its leading platform for the future since it did not seem as if they want to push technical limitations with the series.

Then we got arise...

ok, enough off topic. happy that we get nier =D
 
Maybe I will give this game another shot. My wife got it for me for PS4 and I played up until some carnival like stage and boss and I dropped it. Was not clicking with me.
 
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From the resolution confirmation tweet upthread, I had to highlight this valiant attempt at trolling
Apparently is aware Switch portable mode maxes out at 720p but had to complain about it for no reason? 🤔


 
Now that assets don't have to be stored multiple tiles for faster disk reads (and having their quality reduced), games can, theoretically, be much smaller.


I understand the need for redundancy on disc games but see, but I got it digitally so.. disc reads shouldn't be an issue?
I did some googling and found people saying the big issue nowadays is they often don't use compressed audio or texture files anymore, which causes severe bloat. Not just for quality but to apparently take load off the CPU which would be having to uncompress the files in real-time. But since I've seen it said a bunch that Xbone/PS4 CPUs are, like, not the greatest, I wonder if compression actually saves a bunch of space while simultaneously not being as hard on Switch's CPU? 🤔

From the resolution confirmation tweet upthread, I had to highlight this valiant attempt at trolling
Apparently is aware Switch portable mode maxes out at 720p but had to complain about it for no reason? 🤔



ugh
 
Its interesting how Nintendo has pushed hard to get various action titles developed by Platinium Games on Switch; Astral Chain, Bayonetta 3 and now Nier Automata.

btw, I’m day 1 on this port.
 
I understand the need for redundancy on disc games but see, but I got it digitally so.. disc reads shouldn't be an issue?
I did some googling and found people saying the big issue nowadays is they often don't use compressed audio or texture files anymore, which causes severe bloat. Not just for quality but to apparently take load off the CPU which would be having to uncompress the files in real-time. But since I've seen it said a bunch that Xbone/PS4 CPUs are, like, not the greatest, I wonder if compression actually saves a bunch of space while simultaneously not being as hard on Switch's CPU? 🤔
not disc, disk. the harddisk. the game was made for a spinning HDD. they're still slow so they have duplication.

as for compression, I suspect it would hit the Switch just as hard, if not harder due to the low clock speed. this could be an area where gpu decompression could really help Drake
 
not disc, disk. the harddisk. the game was made for a spinning HDD. they're still slow so they have duplication.

as for compression, I suspect it would hit the Switch just as hard, if not harder due to the low clock speed. this could be an area where gpu decompression could really help Drake
GOTCHA, okay. I had always heard about redundancy on optical mediaz but didn't realize the HDD has the same need. Thanks for the clarification.

So is it possible Switch doesn't need the redundancy due to having flash storage?
 
Its interesting how Nintendo has pushed hard to get various action titles developed by Platinium Games on Switch; Astral Chain, Bayonetta 3 and now Nier Automata.

btw, I’m day 1 on this port.
If I were Sega, I'd look at Platinum games on Switch and how the owners love them and decide to bring the remaining Platinum games I have. Vanquish and Madworld. Too bad I'm not Sega...
 
Increasingly I'm tempted to get this. I guess it depends if anything else lands between Splatoon 3 and Sparks of Hope. Gonna be a busy final few months of the year and some things will have to get left to one side.
 
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GOTCHA, okay. I had always heard about redundancy on optical mediaz but didn't realize the HDD has the same need. Thanks for the clarification.

So is it possible Switch doesn't need the redundancy due to having flash storage?
aye, I think that's part of the reason for the small files sizes. people say nintendo are the masters of compression, but I think that's largely due to their games having art styles that benefit from not losing as much detail when compressed
 
From the resolution confirmation tweet upthread, I had to highlight this valiant attempt at trolling
Apparently is aware Switch portable mode maxes out at 720p but had to complain about it for no reason? 🤔



Twitter is so sad lol. No one cares if YOU think it's unacceptable, really!
 
From the resolution confirmation tweet upthread, I had to highlight this valiant attempt at trolling
Apparently is aware Switch portable mode maxes out at 720p but had to complain about it for no reason? 🤔
Dumb. Also why mention the year like it matters, the Steam Deck was announced a year ago, started shipping at the end of last year and has an 800p (functionally 720p for 16:9 games) screen because it's an appropriate resolution and PPI for the form factor and battery life. Phones with 4K screens still render games at much lower resolutions for that reason. Maybe this person should play Hyrule Warriors DE which renders 1080p in portable mode and enjoy the slideshow.
 
Dumb. Also why mention the year like it matters, the Steam Deck was announced a year ago, started shipping at the end of last year and has an 800p (functionally 720p for 16:9 games) screen because it's an appropriate resolution and PPI for the form factor and battery life. Phones with 4K screens still render games at much lower resolutions for that reason. Maybe this person should play Hyrule Warriors DE which renders 1080p in portable mode and enjoy the slideshow.
No only that, but whenever I play Pokémon Go or my an Apple Arcade game, my phone gets hot and my battery drains like a Game Gear.
 
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Just checking the temperature for this in this thread:

Is Emil's theme the best character theme in all gaming? y/n
 
Very nice this is priced right!

Edit: eshop page is up and game size is 10.9GB, so very likely the full game is on the physical cart. Pre-order away



When a game needs DL or it is DL only it's mentioned on amazon/the game case and in this case it isn't. It's a 16gb card I'd imagine which is quite an investment for a 40$ game I didn't expect from SE
 


When a game needs DL or it is DL only it's mentioned on amazon/the game case and in this case it isn't. It's a 16gb card I'd imagine which is quite an investment for a 40$ game I didn't expect from SE

I'm glad to see they it as worthwhile, to release physicaly in the US and not force us to import from Europe or Asia. With how popular a game this is they must see it as worth the investment.
 
I don’t think this is a game I’ll ever play again, but it’s exciting to see people excited to pick this up! I have my issues with the game, but there is absolutely no denying it’s a trip. Certainly unforgettable
 
As thrilled as I am that this is finally coming to Switch, I would love to know the story behind why it's happening now instead of 2-3 years back.

It was obvious by late 2017 that the Switch was a big hit, Nier was a highly requested port, and both Platinum and Yoko Taro seemed more than willing to port it. What took Square Enix so long to get onto it?
 
As thrilled as I am that this is finally coming to Switch, I would love to know the story behind why it's happening now instead of 2-3 years back.

It was obvious by late 2017 that the Switch was a big hit, Nier was a highly requested port, and both Platinum and Yoko Taro seemed more than willing to port it. What took Square Enix so long to get onto it?
Most single player RPGs are really front loaded in terms of sales, I guess this game has had some unusual legs, so Square sees it as worth it to port the game despite it's age.
 
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How the hell is it 11GB? 0_o

The game is over 45GB on PS4.
Most game sizes are extremely bloated. Some games have GB of assets includes that are not even used and are a relict from development. Many assets are multiplied to reduce load times. Often assets are uncompressed (not even use lossless compression) to reduce strain on the CPU, but that's mostly unnecessary for modern CPUs.

In the development process file sizes often don't play a big role because who cares if users HD space is eaten up or they have to download many unnecessary GB. But on Switch physical releases that are unnecessary big and need a 32GB card instead of a 16GB one actually costs the publisher money, so developer get time to reduce sizes.

Nintendo is very good at compression especially on Switch, even some WiiU to Switch ports have smaller sizes on Switch despite having higher quality assets.
 
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aye, I think that's part of the reason for the small files sizes. people say nintendo are the masters of compression, but I think that's largely due to their games having art styles that benefit from not losing as much detail when compressed
Shading. If you do much of your artstyle with shaders, then you can reuse a lot of them, and they usually are smaller then textures.
the 2 things that need the most: textures and uncompressed Audio. (technically video, but if its real time cutscenes then its not needed)
How the hell is it 11GB? 0_o

The game is over 45GB on PS4.
No redundancy for Disks (HDDs), lower resolution Textures, compressed audio.

Just for example: WAV (data uncompressed like on an Audio CD) for 3 minutes would be 45MB, for an MP3 with Variable Bit Rate averaging 211kbps would be ~5MB.

Bots are probably not the variants used in games, but you see how far you can push if you compress audio. Then you can also get to the point where it is overcompressed and people find it distracting (Dark Souls Remaster...by the same port studio, mind you)

Geting it that low in size, while a huge benefit for the user, has 2 detrements:
way more work (deciding where how what to compress), and lower fidelity (so the extra resolution and stuff is well needed on stronger hardware for better visuals)
GOTCHA, okay. I had always heard about redundancy on optical mediaz but didn't realize the HDD has the same need. Thanks for the clarification.

So is it possible Switch doesn't need the redundancy due to having flash storage?
HDDs are also just spinning discs, so you have to position a reader head , reposition it for a read on a different area, ... if you know taht those data chuncks will be read together often, you copy them so that they can be read in one go and you have less loading. This is extremly inportant for open world games.
Flash storage does not need to physically move a reader head to a different position to get the data.
 
Shading. If you do much of your artstyle with shaders, then you can reuse a lot of them, and they usually are smaller then textures.
the 2 things that need the most: textures and uncompressed Audio. (technically video, but if its real time cutscenes then its not needed)
do we even know just how much of nintendo's texturing work is procedural? because nearly all their assets are traditionally textured. one thing I've seen them do to save on space is is having lower res detail maps like specular and normal maps compared to the diffuse maps. and the diffuse maps are already on the smaller side
 
Yall know how Sonic Colors got screwed because the developer Sega hired ran all the stage/background assets through a program that did like an AI-upscaling of the polygonal models, causing severely bloated poly counts and basically un-optimized the game to a point where they had to lock it to 30fps on Switch even though it was a damn Wii game?

...I wonder if it'd be possible to do the opposite. Like run the background assets of a bigass hi-fi game like FFVII-R through a program that automatically trims and lowers polygon complexity to help reduce the filesize for fitting on carts?
 
Yall know how Sonic Colors got screwed because the developer Sega hired ran all the stage/background assets through a program that did like an AI-upscaling of the polygonal models, causing severely bloated poly counts and basically un-optimized the game to a point where they had to lock it to 30fps on Switch even though it was a damn Wii game?

...I wonder if it'd be possible to do the opposite. Like run the background assets of a bigass hi-fi game like FFVII-R through a program that automatically trims and lowers polygon complexity to help reduce the filesize for fitting on carts?
the former is just subdividing

sds_example.png


the latter is auto lod generator

bd55e927-0ec0-4d80-890f-bb72dc2a774f.jpg
 
do we even know just how much of nintendo's texturing work is procedural? because nearly all their assets are traditionally textured. one thing I've seen them do to save on space is is having lower res detail maps like specular and normal maps compared to the diffuse maps. and the diffuse maps are already on the smaller side
did not look into it, but theyre artstyles are perfect for having a good mix of textures and shading. And even at the same resolution, less detailed textures can be compressed better then ones with more details. Just look at JPEG compression, export a raw in 8/10 quality and 10/10 quality. huge difference in size, small difference in quality, and if that texture is then put on a 3d model, is shaded, and all, i am pretty shure there is no difference to be seen in reality.

But just going by zelda assets, the textures just arend as high res and detailed as most ps4 games. some are shockingly low resolution, one of my biggest gripes.... (washed out detailed stone textures stretched over a mountain side...)
 
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Couldn’t it be because of reduced texture, sound and music quality? How does it look compared to the other versions?
It's been gone over by a couple users here, and I've done some google sleuthing too and it seems to be at least partially due to uncompressed audio and textures. Not necessarily reduced quality, just lack of compression. Compression on the Switch version could make a pretty big difference with the only trade-off being a bit of power required to decompress files as the load, which would impact.. what would it impact, smart Fami? Framerate? Load times?
 
Yall know how Sonic Colors got screwed because the developer Sega hired ran all the stage/background assets through a program that did like an AI-upscaling of the polygonal models, causing severely bloated poly counts and basically un-optimized the game to a point where they had to lock it to 30fps on Switch even though it was a damn Wii game?

...I wonder if it'd be possible to do the opposite. Like run the background assets of a bigass hi-fi game like FFVII-R through a program that automatically trims and lowers polygon complexity to help reduce the filesize for fitting on carts?
Technically you can, but it can also lead to unwanted artefacts, so its not a "do and done" kinda deal, more a "do and check and correct/finish by hand". I asume that in many cases less comples and minor assets get threated that way, and stuff like main charactere models would be done completly by hand. But im not to versed in this field to know how they handle it. I was shocked a few years ago to hear that a friend of mine was reducing complexity by hand, but by now they do use some software there. (but they also have rather simple models, in the area of AR furniture visualisation)


the former is just subdividing

sds_example.png


the latter is auto lod generator

bd55e927-0ec0-4d80-890f-bb72dc2a774f.jpg
this is slightly missrepresenting, the first one is a simple thing, and what if the intent was to have it as a box, then the software would have made a ball of say a cardboard box in the game. if you just blindly give it a model, and say the character has a sharp shoulder guard, without further information it would probably curve the edges, which goes against the design.
With the later its actually easier to analyse the intended way it should look, since you analyse the curvature, and if it is less pronounced then the model generally is when there is a curvature, or if there is a clear edge, then you can keep that more as it is.

Maybe that was the point you wanted to communicate...without more text i was not shure.
It's been gone over by a couple users here, and I've done some google sleuthing too and it seems to be at least partially due to uncompressed audio and textures. Not necessarily reduced quality, just lack of compression. Compression on the Switch version could make a pretty big difference with the only trade-off being a bit of power required to decompress files as the load, which would impact.. what would it impact, smart Fami? Framerate? Load times?
there are 2 types of compression.
Losless compression: you decompress it and it retains all details, but decompression needs space (since for actual use you still have to store the full uncompressed texture somewhere) and processing time for decompressing.
This is good for reducing file size, but not ideal for switch, since it still has less RAM and processing power, so it would increase load times, and if the things are decompressed during gameplay could lead to stutter/lowered framerate/slowdowns/pop in + the storage could just not be enough for all the assets.

Lossy compression (say, mp3, jpeg,...):
you reduce the details. say you have a jpeg in 4k resolution, and one in 1080p. if you watch them both on a 1080p screen, you dont lose much when you throw away the additional detail of the 4k one, but you have 1/4 of the data to store.

Most formats that will be used are a combination:
first lossy compression to remove unececary details and size,
and then losless compression to squeze it slightly smaller if thats possible (usually with a codec that the hardware is able to extract with a dedicated circuit, instead of on the cpu... also why cernei talked about kraken compression on the PS5...because having a dedicated part of your chip that is designed for this operations is way more efficient then doing it with the generall computing logic...but makes only sense if its somethign that your system needs a lot. A typical example are hardware video encoders)

It is always a balance between quality, storage space, and resources when its about games.
which means, doing it automatically will never be the optimal solution, but doing it manually on an asset by asset basis is rather expensive, which is one of many factors in deciding if a port is feasable.
 
Technically you can, but it can also lead to unwanted artefacts, so its not a "do and done" kinda deal, more a "do and check and correct/finish by hand". I asume that in many cases less comples and minor assets get threated that way, and stuff like main charactere models would be done completly by hand. But im not to versed in this field to know how they handle it. I was shocked a few years ago to hear that a friend of mine was reducing complexity by hand, but by now they do use some software there. (but they also have rather simple models, in the area of AR furniture visualisation)



this is slightly missrepresenting, the first one is a simple thing, and what if the intent was to have it as a box, then the software would have made a ball of say a cardboard box in the game. if you just blindly give it a model, and say the character has a sharp shoulder guard, without further information it would probably curve the edges, which goes against the design.
With the later its actually easier to analyse the intended way it should look, since you analyse the curvature, and if it is less pronounced then the model generally is when there is a curvature, or if there is a clear edge, then you can keep that more as it is.

Maybe that was the point you wanted to communicate...without more text i was not shure.

there are 2 types of compression.
Losless compression: you decompress it and it retains all details, but decompression needs space (since for actual use you still have to store the full uncompressed texture somewhere) and processing time for decompressing.
This is good for reducing file size, but not ideal for switch, since it still has less RAM and processing power, so it would increase load times, and if the things are decompressed during gameplay could lead to stutter/lowered framerate/slowdowns/pop in + the storage could just not be enough for all the assets.

Lossy compression (say, mp3, jpeg,...):
you reduce the details. say you have a jpeg in 4k resolution, and one in 1080p. if you watch them both on a 1080p screen, you dont lose much when you throw away the additional detail of the 4k one, but you have 1/4 of the data to store.

Most formats that will be used are a combination:
first lossy compression to remove unececary details and size,
and then losless compression to squeze it slightly smaller if thats possible (usually with a codec that the hardware is able to extract with a dedicated circuit, instead of on the cpu... also why cernei talked about kraken compression on the PS5...because having a dedicated part of your chip that is designed for this operations is way more efficient then doing it with the generall computing logic...but makes only sense if its somethign that your system needs a lot. A typical example are hardware video encoders)

It is always a balance between quality, storage space, and resources when its about games.
which means, doing it automatically will never be the optimal solution, but doing it manually on an asset by asset basis is rather expensive, which is one of many factors in deciding if a port is feasable.
Thank you, smart Fami
 
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Good lord, the deeper aspects of this game's plot are a mind fk. It is so tragically good...will be great to own a physical copy for Switch.
 
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