News Metaphor: ReFantazio announced by Atlus, releasing on Oct 11th [Read Staff Post]

[Phosphorescent Skeleton]

It honestly extends past just the queerphobia in general. The Persona games as well as Catherine delve into views on women and sexual/romantic relationships in ways that are really grotesque and offputting. If you read the interviews Hashino has done, he seems really oblivious to anything like this and it's often overlooked when people decide to call him out. This game having more relationship systems like Persona is a big red flag and another point to look to see if him or anybody on the writing team are able to handle getting past their own track record. There's honestly much more than that when it comes to conservative themes in his games, but the phobia and misogyny are the most blatant standouts because they are so jarring to the works they are in.

Persona 5 is filled with weird "teenage boy has sex with adult women" shit. Hell, the MC can blackmail his teacher into sleeping with him! Really makes a lot of social commentary ring hollow.

 

[GamerJM]

Game looks incredible. Probably my most anticipated game outright now that TotK/SF6 are out.

I sympathize with those who are tired of Hashino's shit. I admittedly can't say I'm as bothered by his writing choices as I probably should be as a queer person (they'd probably bother me a lot more if his games weren't so damn long, a handful of instances of homophobia and transphobia don't really stick out as much as they probably should when the entire game is 100 hours long, and I don't even see all of them since I never do all of the s-links), but yeah, I'm not gonna defend or cape for him.

 

[Tailzo]

It's next gen exclusive, from the looks of things

Also it looks amazing

Incredible!

 

[Leo]

He's probably talking about Hashino's homophobia and transphobia. You can see examples of one, the other, or both in all of his work starting with Persona 3. Though personally, I'm not sure it's as though he doesn't grasp them; I think he does, but makes the choice to be hateful towards queer people. You'd think he'd grow as a person and understand everything he got wrong over time, but I think he just genuinely hates queer people for being queer.

The issue isn't just about how he represents queer people, it stems from him having extremely conservative, archaic and patrimonialistic views of the world while thinking of his games as some kind of revolutionary ode to social progress. It's incredibly baffling and he's either oblivious about how the world has changed around him, including the japanese game development scene, or he suffers from some extreme degree of cognitive dissonance.

 

[Leo]

What are you even on about?

Did you not play any of the games Hashino wrote/directed or are you just trolling?

 

[Mekanos]

patrimonialistic

Damn there's a new word I learned today

I sympathize with those who are tired of Hashino's shit. I admittedly can't say I'm as bothered by his writing choices as I probably should be as a queer person (they'd probably bother me a lot more if his games weren't so damn long, a handful of instances of homophobia and transphobia don't really stick out as much as they probably should when the entire game is 100 hours long, and I don't even see all of them since I never do all of the s-links), but yeah, I'm not gonna defend or cape for him.

This is kind of where I land also as a queer person - but, I have definitely grown tired of his... isms, for lack of a better word. Not just the queerphobia or general treatment of female characters, but things like uneven tone and constant exposition (and repeating of exposition). Persona 5 is one of my all time favorite games, but its script could definitely be reduced by 20% and you'd lose nothing. I am not the kind of person who likes to skip cutscenes, even on replay, but I skipped all the interrogation flashback scenes in Royal after playing through Vanilla.

So, while I've loved both P5 Vanilla and Royal, I definitely am hesitant to jump in fully trusting this game as I would probably be more discerning about his issues as a storyteller this time. Even if somehow it avoids the pratfalls of other Hashino games regarding treatment of women and queer people, there's still a lot of other things to be addressed, and given that he's pretty much Atlus's golden boy now, I have my doubts anyone is gonna tell him what to do. (I know Hashino has technically not had a writing credit on the Persona games, but as director he obviously has a big hand in the final scenario of the game.)

Also, I really can't get over that the protagonist is literally just the P3 MC. I know Soejima is a talented artist and character designer, and this is the best we get?

 

[PixelKnight]

The issue isn't just about how he represents queer people, it stems from him having extremely conservative, archaic and patrimonialistic views of the world while thinking of his games as some kind of revolutionary ode to social progress. It's incredibly baffling and he's either oblivious about how the world has changed around him, including the japanese game development scene, or he suffers from some extreme degree of cognitive dissonance.

The weird hypocrisy of P5 adopting the trappings of ‘we’re young fantasy thieves and rebels, fighting generic powerful adult oppressors!’, while also being still packed full of conservative ‘you can ‘rebel’ as long as you’re still a straight teenage boy as that’s who this power fantasy is for’, is just odd. Right from the start you’ve got ‘let’s go deal with this creepy teacher!’ while the party happily and relentlessly creeps on their friend, and so does the game. Very much ‘have your cake and eat it’ crap. ‘Be your true self! (from this very short list of what we find acceptable)’.

 

[Vookatos]

Yeah, not looking forward to this for the reasons people have mentioned. It's absolutely abhorrent that series that owes so much to Twin Peaks and JoJo decided to copy style and plot bits but sprinkle new and exciting issues. Of course this isn't exactly Persona, but I'm not convinced the story will be better than pretentious "we'll change the world" with boomer-ass jokes every few minutes.

 

[Ozzie]

Also, I really can't get over that the protagonist is literally just the P3 MC. I know Soejima is a talented artist and character designer, and this is the best we get?

Nah, that's Marth. This is secretly the REAL Fire Emblem X Shin Megami Tensei crossover game lol.

 

[BotenAnna]

eh nevermind.

 

[kasparov77]

Right from the start you’ve got ‘let’s go deal with this creepy teacher!’ while the party happily and relentlessly creeps on their friend, and so does the game. Very much ‘have your cake and eat it’ crap. ‘Be your true self! (from this very short list of what we find acceptable)’.

There's a huge difference between a character like Kamoshida - an adult teacher that actively abuses and even sexually harassed their students to say, someone like Ryuji or Morgana who throughout the whole plot of P5 have no intention of doing something ill to characters like Ann.
Ryuji's, Morgana's, etc lines aren't written without a direct consequence later either - it's very common to see the female cast throwing comebacks at them (and this has been a thing way before P5 with characters like Yukari from P3).

Pervy looks and insensitive lines not only have consequences most of the time but they're also contextualized - the phantoms are intimate friends, and more importantly: a group of mostly cis teenagers with multiple members still learning how to behave properly towards a woman. The game isn't perfect when the dynamic shifts and you have an adult x a teenager, you may have characters like Okumura and Kamoshida who are reprehended for their abusive actions and later punished but then you also have characters like... Kawakami.

And this is where I shift from a defensive stance to say that yes, Persona's writing is indeed flawed. But it's nowhere near like some creepo's sexual fantasy land where a female character gets abused 24/7 with zero repercussion.

The issue isn't just about how he represents queer people, it stems from him having extremely conservative, archaic and patrimonialistic views of the world while thinking of his games as some kind of revolutionary ode to social progress. It's incredibly baffling and he's either oblivious about how the world has changed around him, including the japanese game development scene, or he suffers from some extreme degree of cognitive dissonance.

Do you have a source (a piece of written interview, video, etc.) where Hashino states that his work is a 'revolutionary ode to social progress' or even indirectly implies that? I'm not doubting you, I'm merely asking.
Also, do we even know if Hashino is the sole responsible for all of this? wouldn't you expect a game like P5 that's over 100 hours of content most of which is text-based to have not only multiple writers but also dedicated writers for character lines and specific scenes?
Him being the director I assume that he had a hand in greenlighting problematic parts of the plot, but I also think that what people here are missing entirely is the fact that someone wrote that to begin with. And I'm not seeing people being worried about that ITT as much as I'm seeing people blaming Hashino.

To wrap this up: I'm also going to ask you to provide a source for any statement coming from Hashino where he shows explicit hatred towards the LGBT. Even if he was probably the one who greenlit P5's gay couple scene and/or the P3's scene involving a trans character, he most likely isn't the one who wrote it and he also probably didn't do it out of any sort of anti-LGBT agenda. It's called boomer humor and being born in a highly conservative country with values that don't translate well into modern late 10's-early 20's America.

 

[PixelKnight]

There's a huge difference between a character like Kamoshida - an adult teacher that actively abuses and even sexually harassed their students to say, someone like Ryuji or Morgana who throughout the whole plot of P5 have no intention of doing something ill to characters like Ann.
Ryuji's, Morgana's, etc lines aren't written without a direct consequence later either - it's very common to see the female cast throwing comebacks at them (and this has been a thing way before P5 with characters like Yukari from P3).

Pervy looks and insensitive lines not only have consequences most of the time but they're also contextualized - the phantoms are intimate friends, and more importantly: a group of mostly cis teenagers with multiple members still learning how to behave properly towards a woman. The game isn't perfect when the dynamic shifts and you have an adult x a teenager, you may have characters like Okumura and Kamoshida who are reprehended for their abusive actions and later punished but then you also have characters like... Kawakami.

And this is where I shift from a defensive stance to say that yes, Persona's writing is indeed flawed. But it's nowhere near like some creepo's sexual fantasy land where a female character gets abused 24/7 with zero repercussion.
.

This is exactly what I meant by ‘have your cake and eat it’, when the characters get a minor consequence but the material is still made for the (presumed young male) audience to enjoy. Which is why you get stuff like the camera relentlessly eyeing up young women more than the men. The mildest consequences for the characters but still plenty of fanservice for the player, all covered by the defence of ‘hey but at least the guys got told off for perving! That makes it ok and the audience still got what they wanted!’.

Yes, there is a difference between a plotline around sexual assault and the tired, relentless and mild perving over the young women in JRPG casts. The latter is still extremely tired at this point across JRPGs in general, and still gets done to the female half of the cast, dressing them up in skimpy outfits while winking at the player, a hell of a lot more than the guys.

It’s not just that there are (near instantly forgotten) consequences for the characters. It’s the extremely disproportionate use of it across a mixed cast, and who it’s made for and aimed at too while operating under the thinnest of defences of ‘consequences’, and it’s pervasive.

 

[kasparov77]

This is exactly what I meant by ‘have your cake and eat it’, when the characters get a minor consequence but the material is still made for the (presumed young male) audience to enjoy. Which is why you get stuff like the camera relentlessly eyeing up young women more than the men. The mildest consequences for the characters but still plenty of fanservice for the player, all covered by the defence of ‘hey but at least the guys got told off for perving! That makes it ok and the audience still got what they wanted!’.

Yes, there is a difference between a plotline around sexual assault and the tired, relentless and mild perving over the young women in JRPG casts. Yes, the latter is still extremely tired at this point across JRPGs in general, and still gets done to the female half of the cast, dressing them up in skimpy outfits while winking at the player, a hell of a lot more than the guys.

That's why I explicitly mentioned how the male phantoms are mostly written as cisgendered. And I will probably get some flak for this but, I don't think there's anything wrong with cis characters showing sexual interest. Of course, as long as it doesn't delve into some ill intended rape-y development like some kind of sick porno.
But that's not entirely what Persona has to offer really. Take a character like Yusuke for instance, we can clearly see that he has interest in Ann but he's not socially immature like Ryuji or Mishima. He did multiple times deviate his sight out of respect (or at least tried) when a female character was on screen with say, more revealing clothes. But he isn't perfect, like all the other characters.

I honestly don't think every cis male character should be written as a perfect, pure angel in terms of respecting others and asexual in regards to their desires towards other characters. That would be very... unrealistic and tone deaf as to how cis males (specially teenagers) work in reality.
Not implying you think that way either.

 

[PixelKnight]

That's why I explicitly mentioned how the male phantoms are mostly written as cisgendered. And I will probably get some flak for this but, I don't think there's anything wrong with cis characters showing sexual interest. Of course, as long as it doesn't delve into some ill intended rape-y development like some kind of sick porno.
But that's not entirely what Persona has to offer really. Take a character like Yusuke for instance, we can clearly see that he has interest in Ann but he's not socially immature like Ryuji or Mishima. He did multiple times deviate his sight out of respect (or at least tried) when a female character was on screen with say, more revealing clothes. But he isn't perfect, like all the other characters.

I honestly don't think every cis male character should be written as a perfect, pure angel in terms of respecting others and asexual in regards to their desires towards other characters. That would be very... unrealistic and tone deaf as to how cis males (specially teenagers) work in reality.
Not implying you think that way either.

Do you see my point about how all this stuff is written for the presumed cis male player though? It’s not just about how those characters are written. It’s that this stuff and which characters are either undressed, uncomfortable or both is always wildly disproportionate in favour of undressing the girls. Where the male characters are the target of it it tends to be rooted in homophobia instead, and both of those are down to the trends in the writing, not in-universe stuff about whether it would be out-of-character for those particular characters in this particular game. I’m aware that teenagers figuring stuff out is a thing. It’s that such trends are wildly disproportionate, across the cast, all the time, and that comes down to the writing and the games having particular tropes they like to lean on across multiple games.

 

[kasparov77]

Do you see my point about how all this stuff is written for the presumed cis male player though? It’s not just about how those characters are written. It’s that this stuff and which characters are either undressed, uncomfortable or both is always wildly disproportionate in favour of undressing the girls. Where the male characters are the target of it it tends to be rooted in homophobia instead, and both of those are down to the trends in the writing, not in-universe stuff about whether it would be out-of-character for the characters.

Yes, I noticed that too. But like I said: that's mostly due to boomer humor of normalizing these views. Views that are held in the first place in Japan because it's a country that has been rooted in conservative values for decades.
I view it more like a generational (players vs developers) and cultural (westerners vs easterners) gap than some kind of forced agenda.

 

[Yoshifan31]

It looks cool but it’s kind of a waste of a new IP name, I mean it wouldn’t look out of place at all if it was just called SMT VI. On top of that you have the same spell naming convention and what looks like Press Turn icons. While Atlus carved their niche and found a winning formula in Persona especially, I feel like it’s unnecessary for that game to look like it falls under the SMT umbrella and have what looks like Social Links. At this point, people know Atlus’ schtick. They blew up in popularity, they finally ported most of their essential games to modern platforms. Yet, their new IP looks like just SMT/Persona with a twist rather than something actually new, I mean before they blew up they did make good new IPs such as EO, Catherine and Radiant Historia.

I wonder when the bubble will pop and the public will start being low on these games because “when you think about it they are kinda samey like Pokemon”. I’m not even asking for a total overhaul, it’s just that when Atlus gets away with it, they will also get away with making an enhanced version of a 50+ hour RPG a couple years later. They are remaking P3 but it doesn’t have all the content from the other rereleases, therefore they could actually end up making Persona 3 Revolutions in a couple years. They aren’t niche anymore yet this concern is still present, I just won’t buy Persona 6 at launch if I know they will do the same bullshit over again. (Btw this looks like nothing the Switch can’t handle, it wouldn’t be worth it for both this and P6 to be next gen only)

 

[Comic Obsessed]

I don't know what were they thinking with the UI. Is almost like they said "Yeah, Persona 5's UI was pretty sleek, let's make it busier!"

Also, this looks like it could run on Switch without problems (it won't be there because Atlus though).

 

[Hauke_von_Arding]

 

[touchfuzzy]

Game looks cool to me -- I see we won't be able to discuss it without it turning into a social justice parade though.

 

[soundchaser]

EDIT: Never mind

 

[Armoured_Bear]

You guys are going to have to wait quite some time for Japan to progress as a society wrt gender and sexuality before you have any chance of getting rid of the things bothering you in games like this.

 

[Mekanos]

You guys are going to have to wait quite some time for Japan to progress as a society wrt gender and sexuality before you have any chance of getting rid of the things bothering you in games like this.

This isn’t really strictly a Japan thing. This is a consistent issue in Atlus games, largely because they pander to otaku power fantasies. It’s a bit too easy as a westerner to just write this off as “those silly Japanese people”

 

[Embers]

You guys are going to have to wait quite some time for Japan to progress as a society wrt gender and sexuality before you have any chance of getting rid of the things bothering you in games like this.

There are a number of recent RPGs out of Japan (Blue Reflection 2, Caligula Effect 2 to name a couple) that handle these themes way more maturely than anything Hashino has directed. The problem is not Japan--as if any country's population is a monolith--it's this guy and the same themes and phobias showing up in everything he handles.

(By the way, his name is Katsura Hashino, not Hoshino. I know he sucks but we should get his name right.)

 

[Hauke_von_Arding]

You guys are going to have to wait quite some time for Japan to progress as a society wrt gender and sexuality before you have any chance of getting rid of the things bothering you in games like this.

There are even other Atlus games with better representation. There is a canon trans character in Soul Hackers who isn't portrayed creepy in any way as far as I know. (correct me if I'm wrong).

Also Japan isn't a reactionary hive mint. You have a lot of progressive creators who handle this stuff way better like Uchikoshi in his AI series or even Monolith Soft with Xenoblade 3. HOshino is a negative exemple not a exemple of an average Japanese developer.

 

[Leo]

Do you have a source (a piece of written interview, video, etc.) where Hashino states that his work is a 'revolutionary ode to social progress' or even indirectly implies that? I'm not doubting you, I'm merely asking.

This is my impression of his work, I didn't say he stated that. It's pretty clear in the themes of the games, though, especially P5, where the main party are portrayed as rebels going against the rotten system.

Also, do we even know if Hashino is the sole responsible for all of this? wouldn't you expect a game like P5 that's over 100 hours of content most of which is text-based to have not only multiple writers but also dedicated writers for character lines and specific scenes?

Sole responsible or one of the responsibles isn't entirely relevant and just muddles the discussion. He's definitely responsible as he's directed and/or written at least 4 games with varying degrees of bigotry, so he at the very least had to give them the okay.

To wrap this up: I'm also going to ask you to provide a source for any statement coming from Hashino where he shows explicit hatred towards the LGBT.

While I don't doubt such statement exists as you can definitely find some interviews with him that are highly problematic regarding sexism, I don't really need to provide you anything, since the content I'm talking about is in the games themselves. It's completely irrelevant if Hashino is an open bigot and talks about it in interviews or not, the media he's directed has plenty of problematic content and that's what I'm talking about. Atlus themselves recognized this when they changed P5R's script on the localization, not that I need their validation.

It's called boomer humor and being born in a highly conservative country with values that don't translate well into modern late 10's-early 20's America.

Oh thanks for the clarification, so now if you call homophobia, transphobia and sexism "boomer humor" it makes it okay. I will work on not being offended by those when they're called that.

And it's pretty disrespectful to japanese LGBTQ people who exist, are politically engaged and fighting everyday for their rights just like us to act like Japan is some alien faction beyond any reasoning when the problem in question is this specific developer who hasn't caught up with times the way many others in the industry (including in Japan) have.

I'm not American btw and you seemingly thinking human rights are a matter of translating well to modern America's standards is ridiculous.

Game looks cool to me -- I see we won't be able to discuss it without it turning into a social justice parade though.

Wtf, didn't really expect to read something like this in Famiboards.

I don't really care if any of y'all will play this game or not, do whatever you want, just don't try to shut down criticism when we're discussing something serious that isn't important to you and doesn't affect you.

 

[kasparov77]

This is my impression of his work, I didn't say he stated that. It's pretty clear in the themes of the games, though, especially P5

You're pushing your impression of his work to validate your accusation of him being anti-LGBT. Again, if you provide any sort of proof where it shows that he's actively against the cause then I'll gadly switch my point of view. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt.

Sole responsible or one of the responsibles isn't entirely relevant and just muddles the discussion. He's definitely responsible as he's directed and/or written at least 4 games with varying degrees of bigotry, so he at the very least had to give them the okay.

It is relevant. If he's replaced for someone else but the writer who's the actual responsible in the first place is kept, then essentially, not much changes.

While I don't doubt such statement exists as you can definitely find some interviews with him that are highly problematic regarding sexism, I don't really need to provide you anything, since the content I'm talking about is in the games themselves. It's completely irrelevant if Hashino is an open bigot and talks about it in interviews or not, the media he's directed has plenty of problematic content and that's what I'm talking about. Atlus themselves recognized this when they changed P5R's script on the localization, not that I need their validation.

You made an accusation though. It's on you to provide a proof to your claim, not me.

Oh thanks for the clarification, so now if you call homophobia, transphobia and sexism "boomer humor" it makes it okay. I will work on not being offended by those when they're called that.

This was never said nor implied in my post?
It's an interpretation of ATLUS' work and how it has aged. You do seem to know that boomer humor is in fact enrooted in multiple layers of prejudice at times but from my point of view (and pardon me if I'm wrong here) you seem to have ignored that in your last post in order to make a false accusation that I'm using the term 'boomer humor' as a scapegoat for ATLUS' mistakes.

I'm not American btw and you seemingly thinking human rights are a matter of translating well to modern America's standards is ridiculous.

Again, this was never implied and I'd much prefer if you stopped relying on strawmans when replying to my posts.
What I meant is that North America, to be more exact has been recently a center for discussion and protests related to human rights and the LGBT cause.

Also, I'm not American either fyi.

 

[kasparov77]

You guys are going to have to wait quite some time for Japan to progress as a society wrt gender and sexuality before you have any chance of getting rid of the things bothering you in games like this.

Exactly. It's not as easy as it seems. They're very reluctant - specially when it comes to taking opinions from westerners.

 

[james]

its pretty embarrassing that some people cant seem to handle people discussing some of the greater issues with hashinos games lol.

i will prolly play this, will prolly enjoy it on a superficial level (thats what p3 4 and 5 really had going for them anyway. visuals, music, style), but its definitely a good thing that more people wanna discuss hashinos missteps, even if it dominates the discussion.

its weird to come online and think that your right to discuss a video game is more important (and less annoying) than a conversation about the dude directing the games distorted, trash world view.

 

[Irene]

Hey all, we're temporarily locking the thread to handle reports.

 

[Josh5890]

We will be reopening this thread, but please read the following staff post before re-engaging.




As always, our goal here at Famiboards is to make everyone feel comfortable and safe. While there are plenty of Persona fans on this site, it is no secret that some of the material is problematic and hateful.

While we welcome a discussion about the themes of the Persona series, we will not tolerate any defense of the series that comes at the expense of any marginalized community. Also, drive by posts that are summed up as “Well, that is Japan for you” are also not acceptable as that is unfairly stereotyping an entire country. While Japan's culture and policies has been slower to move forward, there have been great strides made with acceptance to same sex marriage and other LGBTQ+ issues.

As this is a more sensitive subject, we expect all posts to be constructive to allow for a real discussion to take place. Going forward, we will be monitoring this thread more closely and any similar threads. We will be quicker to provide bans as we see fit.



-Josh5890, Irene, PixelKnight, Volcanic Dynamo, xGhost777

 

[Ojoloco]

I wish to play this game on Switch, looks very great

 

[Deleted member 1141]

Hopefully Mods and Admins are okay with me posting this:

My only thing I'm gonna say is this: A lot of stuff is happening in Japan right now in regards to human rights (ranging from immigration discussions, racism, discrimination, and Queer people). Japan is dealing with onset of imported Transphobia and other far-right wing conspiracies, thanks to specific news outlets (which I'll refrain from posting since I don't wanna bring more attention to them), and the language in a recent Japanese bill (which honestly is a nothing-burger) to "understand" LGBTQ+ community, was amended to be more inclusive towards women (aka, buying into Transphobic crap about Trans Women in Bathrooms). That and the language beyond that in the bill shows how out of touch the Government is by not using common language used by the community (I've been noticing this discussed a lot by Queer people I follow online in Japan).

Not only that, there is ongoing push and public support of Queer marriage in Japan, but the current government has zero interest in addressing it or wanting to really do anything, and even with the local courts ruling in favor, it's not enough to really make it legal. This also puts a lot of non-Japanese with partners in Japan into legal limbo, because of Japan's intense refusal to not want to allow for same sex marriage or give protections to partners. There was a recent case where a court gave a "long term" VISA to someone's spouse in Japan, who has actively sought to stay in the country, but it only applies for up to a year and obviously is not along term solution. There's more information in the article linked.

So if anyone wants to try and pretend any of homophobia, transphobia, etc., doesn't exist in Japan or that Japan doesn't see Queer issues and stuff, along with using it also as a defense force for the bullcrap in games, saying Japan "doesn't get it", can screw off. Tired of gamers and anime fans having this view and seeing some comments dive into similar things in here, is beyond frustrating. That and the idea that "It's Japan" as a means to why these type of things are in here, is not the defense you think it is.

One Additional Edit while I'm thinking about it:

Hashino has a long history of enabling problematic and hostile views. While he's not the only one at Atlus who has caused problems (see: Producer for Persona 5 Royal, which is not Hashino, only relenting for the International version to modify some content), it's part of the problem with creative a hostile narrative and dated views on Queer people. Not to mention, the framing of the Queer men in Persona 5 and even in Royal, portrays us as predators and gay panic. Hashino's decisions in Catherine Fullbody are especially hurtful for the Trans community, given the whole mess with Rin, and then what they did to Erika in the true ending (since it's supposed to be a reality where everyone is happier). It also gives the illusion of being "trans is just a phase", too, and I don't think I need to get into why that stuff is toxic and harmful.

This is part of a grand scope of way media portrays people and it does have effects in reality, because it normalizes it. Just seeing how anime and gamers are in regards to how they view our community, on top of active producers and creators, is enough to show this. And it completely throws people under the bus who are actively trying to make things better and make it a more hostile environment. I've seen such denialism that "Queer" people either "don't exist in Japan and it's been imported" or "it's not that bad, stop complaining", and among other things.

Unfortunately, Atlus has a long history of issues that normalize this crap, and if anyone tries to push back at us calling this out, that says more on you than us.

 

[Brock Reiher]

not a huge fan of the art style, not sure if it does enough to differentiate itself from persona. the simpler persona-styled models with all of the detail going on kind of clashes a bit as well.

 

[Comic Obsessed]

Japan is certainly a "conservative" country but there are still many progressive creators not only in terms of game development but also in media as a whole there.

Is just that Hashino is a terrible and reductive writer for any of those sort of topics and I would say that he's not a good writer as a whole (his premises have potential but he usually fails at reaching anything actually compelling). For God's sake, even an old-school creator like Yuji Horii has done a better Gay character in Dragon Quest XI with Sylvando.

 

[SammyJ9]

I wanted to clarify my earlier post, since I hadn’t read the thread before and was just posting a quick catch-up reaction that the game looked really cool: I am absolutely not excusing any of the problematic elements in Persona games and with Hashino. I know I can sometimes be a little too enthusiastic about Persona 5 in particular since it’s one of my favorite games of all time, but I definitely agree it has problems and things that shouldn’t be there. I think this game looks great and am optimistic and also hopeful that there will be big improvements on that front, but I can certainly understand not wanting to give it the benefit of the doubt. I apologize for contributing to the thread dissonance and ignoring this side of it.

 

[Donkusei]

it is no secret that some of the material is problematic and hateful

The problem is: no, there is nothing problematic or hateful in these games. You are the people who create hate about people who did not have done or said anything wrong. Persona games are about tolerance and respect. Everything in Catherine: Full Body was about that by the way. Pretty easy to understand even for a child.

Ban me, please, I don't want to talk with crazy people. I thought it was a better place than Resetera.

 

[Leo]

Persona games are about tolerance and respect.

*Except if you're gay or trans or a woman

 

[Adulfzen]

The problem is: no, there is nothing problematic or hateful in these games. You are the people who create hate about people who did not have done or said anything wrong. Persona games are about tolerance and respect. Everything in Catherine: Full Body was about that by the way. Pretty easy to understand even for a child.

Ban me, please, I don't want to talk with crazy people. I thought it was a better place than Resetera.

All I can say is that you're either plain stupid or a bigot, pick your poison.

 

[Jencks]

The problem is: no, there is nothing problematic or hateful in these games. You are the people who create hate about people who did not have done or said anything wrong. Persona games are about tolerance and respect. Everything in Catherine: Full Body was about that by the way. Pretty easy to understand even for a child.

Ban me, please, I don't want to talk with crazy people. I thought it was a better place than Resetera.

What

 

[Linkstrikesback]

The problem is: no, there is nothing problematic or hateful in these games. You are the people who create hate about people who did not have done or said anything wrong. Persona games are about tolerance and respect. Everything in Catherine: Full Body was about that by the way. Pretty easy to understand even for a child.

Ban me, please, I don't want to talk with crazy people. I thought it was a better place than Resetera.

Please do let the door hit you on the way out. The games do have blatant examples of transphobia, as well as various examples of fearing people being anything other than straight, much as I want to headcannon Yosuke being in the closet.

And besides, the Persona games are hypocritical even about the messages they think they're trying to beat you with, adults are dumb and bad, and here's an example with the gym teacher sexually abusing students, isn't that bad? Anyway Jokers teacher dating him and having a very much sexual relationship is good because reasons.

 

[Deleted member 1141]

People really showing their colors in this thread, huh?

I wanted to clarify my earlier post, since I hadn’t read the thread before and was just posting a quick catch-up reaction that the game looked really cool: I am absolutely not excusing any of the problematic elements in Persona games and with Hashino. I know I can sometimes be a little too enthusiastic about Persona 5 in particular since it’s one of my favorite games of all time, but I definitely agree it has problems and things that shouldn’t be there. I think this game looks great and am optimistic and also hopeful that there will be big improvements on that front, but I can certainly understand not wanting to give it the benefit of the doubt. I apologize for contributing to the thread dissonance and ignoring this side of it.

Nah, you're good, no worries there. It's more-so the other people who are defending Hashino, Atlus, and "Japan, what do you expect?" posts.

*Except if you're gay or trans or a woman

Funny how they speak about tolerance (and really Persona isn't about "tolerance", but rather giving the illusion you have a choice to change society and yourself, but the endings of the games undermine the messaging and enforce the "it's good to fall in line with society!", with Persona 4 and 5 being the worst here) and then not only ignore the criticism from minorities, they also use ableist language on top of it. No words.

 

[Mekanos]

The problem is: no, there is nothing problematic or hateful in these games. You are the people who create hate about people who did not have done or said anything wrong. Persona games are about tolerance and respect. Everything in Catherine: Full Body was about that by the way. Pretty easy to understand even for a child.

Ban me, please, I don't want to talk with crazy people. I thought it was a better place than Resetera.

you’ve never had an intelligent thought once in your life huh

 

[Arrietty]

The problem is: no, there is nothing problematic or hateful in these games. You are the people who create hate about people who did not have done or said anything wrong. Persona games are about tolerance and respect. Everything in Catherine: Full Body was about that by the way. Pretty easy to understand even for a child.

Ban me, please, I don't want to talk with crazy people. I thought it was a better place than Resetera.

As a queer person, I guess I was pretending I was uncomfortable with some of the dialog in Persona 4. Silly me! Sorry for creating hate!!!

And I say this as someone who genuinely loved the game until the writing started to get to me lol

 

[Josh5890]

The problem is: no, there is nothing problematic or hateful in these games. You are the people who create hate about people who did not have done or said anything wrong. Persona games are about tolerance and respect. Everything in Catherine: Full Body was about that by the way. Pretty easy to understand even for a child.

Ban me, please, I don't want to talk with crazy people. I thought it was a better place than Resetera.

 

[KarmaDesires]

Please do let the door hit you on the way out. The games do have blatant examples of transphobia, as well as various examples of fearing people being anything other than straight, much as I want to headcannon Yosuke being in the closet.

And besides, the Persona games are hypocritical even about the messages they think they're trying to beat you with, adults are dumb and bad, and here's an example with the gym teacher sexually abusing students, isn't that bad? Anyway Jokers teacher dating him and having a very much sexual relationship is good because reasons.

But is a work of fiction obliged to be morally correct and non-hypocrital? Writers don't necessarily agree with with the actions of their characters, they are or could be exploring emotions that intrigue them.

 

[Mekanos]

I know this is a tough concept for some people but you can enjoy something and also be aware of its problems

 

[Thunder84]

But is a work of fiction obliged to be morally correct and non-hypocrital? Writers don't necessarily agree with with the actions of their characters, they are or could be exploring emotions that intrigue them.

Sure. Persona doesn’t do that well by any stretch of the imagination though, so it’s a moot point.

 

[Comic Obsessed]

But is a work of fiction obliged to be morally correct and non-hypocrital? Writers don't necessarily agree with with the actions of their characters, they are or could be exploring emotions that intrigue them.

I REALLY doubt that was Hashino's intention though. He just has a way to contradict his own message.

 

[Deleted member 1141]

But is a work of fiction obliged to be morally correct and non-hypocrital? Writers don't necessarily agree with with the actions of their characters, they are or could be exploring emotions that intrigue them.

This feels like a bad faith argument, given uh, the things we've talked about in Persona, Catherine, and Hashino/Atlus here...

 

[Linkstrikesback]

But is a work of fiction obliged to be morally correct and non-hypocrital? Writers don't necessarily agree with with the actions of their characters, they are or could be exploring emotions that intrigue them.

Persona doesn't do that though. Their thought processes started and ended with 'we should let the MC bone his teacher'.