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StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (New Staff Post, Please read)

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JoshuaJSlone said:
If I understand what you're getting at properly, I think you're right. So if it was a 30fps game but the concurrent DLSS (and whatever further post-processing) action took less than 16.6ms, the output wouldn't need be 33.3ms behind just because that's what each frame has been given.

30fps frame output (on 60hz screen) could go from
BBCCDDEE
to
ABBCCDDE
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Yeah. Even if the frame is only 1ms late, it will only be displayed in the next display refresh, so 16.6ms delay for a 60Hz display. The good part is not having to wait full 33.3ms for 30fps games.

JoshuaJSlone said:
and maybe the difference could be even less on a variable refresh rate screen? Though I don't feel I have a solid enough understanding of how all the timing stuff works there to say with certainty.
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Maybe they don't even need VRR. If DLSS cost is constant enough... maybe they could start the frame later to reduce input delay.

For example, let's say DLSS costs ~4ms. Instead of starting the first frame at 0ms, they start it at 28ms. Then the first frame will be ready before 66.6ms. The input delay would be under 38.3ms, just 5ms more than 33.3ms.
 
Zedark said:
This is my understanding of it, at least. If my understanding was wrong or someone wants to add additional nuance to it, please reply (it helps the discussion and everyone's understanding of the process)!
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This is correct! But sure, let's do nuance.

As LiC points out, games are already doing this kind of parallel operation. It’s pretty standard on the Switch for games to be rendering (GPU code) while the next frame starts running logic (CPU code). This causes extra latency in a very similar way.

Imagine a game that takes, on average 4ms to run the CPU code, and 16ms to render on the GPU. That’s over the 16.6ms it takes to stay 60fps.

But a game can overlap CPU and GPU. For frame A, you get 4ms of CPU time. Then the GPU starts working, for 12ms. The GPU isn’t done, but that’s okay, the CPU starts working on frame B. Frame A has the whole time the CPU is running - those 4ms - to complete.

Frame A finishes, and then gets buffered, right before frame B is ready to hit the GPU. Another 12ms, and frame A - which has been sitting ready go - finally goes out. The CPU starts on Frame C, and frame B finishes up and buffers itself - the cycle continues.

First, you can see that if you are really good, you can keep CPU and GPU utilization at max, spend 32ms of time on every frame but still send out frames every 16ms. Amazing.

The second thing that you can see is that Frame A has to get the hell out of the way of Frame B. While Frame B is on the CPU, Frame A has the run of the GPU. But once Frame B is ready to render, if Frame A isn’t done, they’re going to compete for the same GPU resources, slowing each other down.

That means there are 12ms, where Frame A isn’t doing anything. It’s done rendering, so there isn’t anything left to do, but even if there was, there is no idle hardware to do it. Frame A just has to sit there until Frame C is ready for the CPU and the display is ready to refresh. This is how it works in games you play on the Switch, right now, every day.

Enter DLSS.

Now there is something to do after rendering - upscaling. Games obviously already upscale now, but it is practically a part of rendering because it uses the same hardware - the GPU. But now Nvidia has broken that GPU up into pieces that can run rendering and upscaling at the same time, without resource competition.

In our example, Frame A now has 12ms of DLSS time it gets completely for free. Because it’s already buffered, you don’t even get added latency.
 
JoshuaJSlone said:
Though I'm tempted to play with DLSSTweaks and see what some stuff like 360p->1440p comes out like.
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I did a bit of testing with a certain game that was compatible with DLSSTweaks. All combinations of input resolution 360, 480, 600, 720 and output resolution 1080, 1440, 2160. Being still images of one location of one game with one version of DLSS and no playing with the lettered presets there's only so much you can read into this, though I did try to note where it was distractingly unstable in motion. At least in this case I thought an input resolution of 853x480 was at the edge of acceptable for 1440p or even 4K. Less than that and it became unstable enough that limiting to a lower output resolution might be easier to look at.
 
Serif said:
Playing Ghosts of Tsushima on Steam Deck has only increased my appetite for Switch 2's potential. Maybe it's odd that I'm thinking about Switch 2 while playing a Sony exclusive title on a handheld PC... but I can't help myself. Comparison is inevitable.
Screenshot-2024-05-25-100710.png
Screenshot-2024-05-25-100743.png

Some thoughts:
  • This is one of the prettiest games I've ever played, and it is a 'mere' PS4 game running at PS4 equivalent settings (dynamic 1080p with FSR2, 30 FPS, medium-low settings). Asset quality is what you'd expect - but the art direction - the way light bounces, how grass is shaded, how the world presents itself - stunning. And this is despite me cranking the settings way down - it's very scalable.
  • HDR is a must for Switch 2. It just looks stunning and gives an immediate upgrade to visuals regardless of resolution. I expect it in both modes.
  • I'm playing with a 4K framebuffer, so the Deck is always outputting a 2160p 60 Hz HDR signal to the TV. This is what I expect for Switch 2. The game is running at a dynamic upscaled 1080p, and the image quality is outstanding. Increasing the resolution past this point results in noticeable but negligible differences in sharpness. The distinction between 1440p and 4K is especially not noticeable when I'm 8 feet away from my 65'' TV.
  • 30 FPS should be serviceable for most people, yes even on an OLED TV, as long as the game is responsive, the FPS is locked, and/or there is a good motion blur solution. I've had no issues playing this game for hours this way. (I know that some people physically cannot handle 30 frames, this is where I hope developers offer performance modes or support for 40 FPS in some way)
  • I expect many demanding multiplatform ports to target 1080p 30 FPS after DLSS And that would be a fantastic outcome. Aiming for higher is good of course. I don't expect the same degree of diminished visuals with the Switch's 'impossible ports', which sacrificed resolution/framerate/detail all at once.
  • Fuck it, if some games need to get 720p/900p docked after DLSS just to make it onto the Switch 2, I'll take it, as long as the image itself is still well anti-aliased and packed with detail.
  • At living room distance (which is what Nintendo would care about most for docked mode) - the Switch 2 should provide consistently high quality visuals in docked mode, to the point where many complaints about image quality and performance should disappear. We'll see the inevitable complaints about '1080p in 2025' but there will be disinterest in the spec wars, considering how good games should look.
I've enjoyed using my Steam Deck as a mini console and have finished up recent games like Lies of P on it, I'm willing to accept all the cutbacks to have a portable device. It's not a very seamless hybrid device though, so the Switch 2 will end up being my go-to for recent releases if third parties step up their game.
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GoT is interesting with it's gpu-generated grass. it's pretty much what Mesh Shaders is intended to accelerate via hardware support

 
JoshuaJSlone said:
I did a bit of testing with a certain game that was compatible with DLSSTweaks. All combinations of input resolution 360, 480, 600, 720 and output resolution 1080, 1440, 2160. Being still images of one location of one game with one version of DLSS and no playing with the lettered presets there's only so much you can read into this, though I did try to note where it was distractingly unstable in motion. At least in this case I thought an input resolution of 853x480 was at the edge of acceptable for 1440p or even 4K. Less than that and it became unstable enough that limiting to a lower output resolution might be easier to look at.
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for the laymen: was this to see how low you can take resolutions before getting (hopefully stable) 1440k and 4k? and 853 x 480 was the edge (although still somewhat unstable), but 900 x 600 would probably work better for output to 1440k/4k?
 
Steve said:
Makes me wonder if Nintendo still have some games that are ready for the Switch 2 pipeline, but the Delays was mostly because of 3D Mario.

Like I’m quite impressed that Nintendo now has the capability of withholding games, compare to the Wii U era in which we waited for so long for games to arrive.

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I'm going to put the same thing I put in the First Parties thread:


"Small reminder, because this is always misunderstood, that games are rated without being finished, when they can be played from start to finish but still have to be developed, tested, polished, etc."



And I add this, around the same time Hellblade was already in the Australian ratings, to give another example from a game that also comes out at the same time as Paper Mario
https://www.classification.gov.au/titles/senuas-saga-hellblade-ii
Or Prince of Persia TLC:
https://www.classification.gov.au/titles/prince-persia-lost-crown
 
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Shareholder Chad said:
Super Mario Odyssey had one flaw that I hope can be fixed.

Too many damn "moons". They weren't special. They even had welfare moons. Lets get back to the perfectly fine, 120.
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I've seen this complaint a lot, but I never understood it. Who do these extra moons hurt? It's a beautiful way for Nintendo to make the game fun for low skill players and kids without hurting the difficulty for more advanced players.

If you're good at games, they don't hurt at all, ignore them, or pick them as as you go, easy peasy. If you're less skilled however, these moons provide satisfaction and reward to those people without asking them to do things that intimidate or frustrate them.

It's a win win and I hope they maintain this formula, it caters to all players evenly :)
 
JoshuaJSlone said:
I did a bit of testing with a certain game that was compatible with DLSSTweaks. All combinations of input resolution 360, 480, 600, 720 and output resolution 1080, 1440, 2160. Being still images of one location of one game with one version of DLSS and no playing with the lettered presets there's only so much you can read into this, though I did try to note where it was distractingly unstable in motion. At least in this case I thought an input resolution of 853x480 was at the edge of acceptable for 1440p or even 4K. Less than that and it became unstable enough that limiting to a lower output resolution might be easier to look at.
Click to expand...

Think of how bad the IQ, stability and ghosting if Switch didn’t have Tensor Cores and was running on FSR2, even if FSR3 improves on those aspects I think it will come at a harder performance penalty
 
0
I don’t think Nintendo games are finished 1 year over, they are likely content finished, then set to ratings meanwhile they polished them.

Paper Mario TTYD was probably done by very late 2023, so ~6 months before its release. Not a whole year.
 
LoneRanger said:
I don’t think Nintendo games are finished 1 year over, they are likely content finished, then set to ratings meanwhile they polished them.

Paper Mario TTYD was probably done by very late 2023, so ~6 months before its release. Not a whole year.
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For the most part I think the latter part of the game's development is mostly QA testing.

Stuff like progression bugs (like the one that happened with Super Mario RPG) are rare.
 
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rick_C said:
They already hold FE engage and XB3 before, which is little bit out of my expectation.
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To be more correct, Xenoblade 3 was rated in February 2022, 5 months before release, so not exactly "holding". FE Engage on the other hand was rated in August 2021, 18 moths before release (same timeframe for Metroid Prime Remastered)
 
The Competition said:
I've seen this complaint a lot, but I never understood it. Who do these extra moons hurt? It's a beautiful way for Nintendo to make the game fun for low skill players and kids without hurting the difficulty for more advanced players.

If you're good at games, they don't hurt at all, ignore them, or pick them as as you go, easy peasy. If you're less skilled however, these moons provide satisfaction and reward to those people without asking them to do things that intimidate or frustrate them.

It's a win win and I hope they maintain this formula, it caters to all players evenly :)
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It’s also fun for people that like to speed run the games. I know the first time I beat Odyssey I took my time getting every moon in every world before beating Bowser, but once I beat him I immediately started a new save and sped through the game in a little over 3 hours on my first try. The extra moons let you beat worlds without having to fight most of the bosses.
 
The Competition said:
I've seen this complaint a lot, but I never understood it. Who do these extra moons hurt? It's a beautiful way for Nintendo to make the game fun for low skill players and kids without hurting the difficulty for more advanced players.

If you're good at games, they don't hurt at all, ignore them, or pick them as as you go, easy peasy. If you're less skilled however, these moons provide satisfaction and reward to those people without asking them to do things that intimidate or frustrate them.

It's a win win and I hope they maintain this formula, it caters to all players evenly :)
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I agree but I think for the next 3d mario they should make more types of moon's
 
My understanding is that Nintendo really does bank titles for a year+, but that it’s uncommon. More common is for games to go into a hibernation between majority of development and Q&A

It seems like the primary source of reliable Nintendo leaks in the US is/was the US Q&A teams. The long gap between leak and launch of Fire Emblem Engage seems to be a case of truly banking a QA complete title.

Jeff Grubb has also said that Nintendo’s policy has been to move away from contracting to supplement Q&A, and instead keeping the staff stable, and allowing titles to sit in the queue until staffing becomes available to move it forward.

This is a way more cost effective strategy and gives Nintendo tons of flexibility, but it leaves games sitting on the balance sheet, with all their development costs sunk, but not generating revenue. It’s also a bad strategy for games where first to market matters. Sony and MS are competing with similar games on similar hardware targeting similar markets. Getting certain exclusives out (to drive hardware sales) before the other team probably matters more to them than a steady pace of titles.
 
The Competition said:
I've seen this complaint a lot, but I never understood it. Who do these extra moons hurt? It's a beautiful way for Nintendo to make the game fun for low skill players and kids without hurting the difficulty for more advanced players.

If you're good at games, they don't hurt at all, ignore them, or pick them as as you go, easy peasy. If you're less skilled however, these moons provide satisfaction and reward to those people without asking them to do things that intimidate or frustrate them.

It's a win win and I hope they maintain this formula, it caters to all players evenly :)
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Agreed. I actually think the moons are implemented extremely well:

-they recreate an element I love in 2D Mario that has been less present in 3D: being rewarded for noticing a suspicious element of the environment and interacting with it, like when you instinctively know they've hidden an invisible block or a beanstalk in locations in 2D Mario
-it adds a sense of intrigue for a good stretch of the game (before you receive the checklist on your victory lap of the game) that makes you wonder exactly how many moons are actually able to be collected
-it's satisfyingly maximalist that the Odyssey is a physical object present in every level that visualises your progress, and literally grows to the point of absurdity as you add massive numbers of moons to it
 
P4bl0 said:
SP usually means Special Project in those instances.

They're literally using a vague abbreviation inside the codename, you can see how secret this shit is and they don't want anyone to know about what it entails.
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Secret Project Red.

So Mario Next.
 
2025 is the release year of the Switch 2.

2025 is the 40th anniversary of Mario.

SP is often used to mean "special" in japanese products.

SPRed is clearly a 40th anniversary game for the Switch 2. Whatever that is.
 
Puikko said:
2025 is the release year of the Switch 2.

2025 is the 40th anniversary of Mario.

SP is often used to mean "special" in japanese products.

SPRed is clearly a 40th anniversary game for the Switch 2. Whatever that is.
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What are you suggestion some kind of... Super Mario All-Stars of the next generation?

Imagine such a decadent and Silly Project -- including changes from Shiro Mouri putting in multiplayer and multiple characters in an HD take on legacy Mario games like New Super Mario Bros. up to NSMB2. Simply Preposterous. GUFFAW I say.
 
0
The levels of secrecy, misdirection, and overall trickery here is absurdly funny. Maybe the console really is called the Oz, because they're acting like a magician performing their tricks.
 
Ojoloco said:
I'm going to put the same thing I put in the First Parties thread:


"Small reminder, because this is always misunderstood, that games are rated without being finished, when they can be played from start to finish but still have to be developed, tested, polished, etc."



And I add this, around the same time Hellblade was already in the Australian ratings, to give another example from a game that also comes out at the same time as Paper Mario
https://www.classification.gov.au/titles/senuas-saga-hellblade-ii
Or Prince of Persia TLC:
https://www.classification.gov.au/titles/prince-persia-lost-crown
Click to expand...
Pretty much every Switch era Nintendo game gets rated no more than 5 months before release. TTYD is very much an outlier among Engage and Prime Remastered.
 
HyruleanKnight said:
* Hidden text: cannot be quoted. *
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My assumption is the curved building related to the curve of the controller and maybe since it’s magnetic it can be stacked vertically like the tall building (for games like Ikaruga or maybe even DS emulation.)
 
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Kopo said:
Yeah, I posted it very fast without stopping to think, but I think she is giving a very quick conclusion. Btw, the p01 thing was something already known?
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Was P01 already known? I wasn't aware of it.

If this is accurate (apart from the speculation), at least we know of servers being updated to handle the new hardware in some capacity, and that's encouraging.
 
Concernt said:
Was P01 already known? I wasn't aware of it.

If this is accurate (apart from the speculation), at least we know of servers being updated to handle the new hardware in some capacity, and that's encouraging.
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Yes! It's good news. Midori also just said this, and it may point to the BC:



Edit: She also said this, and I find it interesting to add to my post

 
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Kopo said:
So...
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Although Midori has proven to be a reliable source to this day, their last tweets about future games codenames, and now server infrastructure, seem to be either entirely made up news, or some REALLY risky stuff to let people publicly know if they truly do have access to that kind of information. I sincerely hope nintendo ninjas aren't already on their way to ruin their life with some stupid lawsuit.
 
nightcall333 said:
Although Midori has proven to be a reliable source to this day, their last tweets about future games codenames, and now server infrastructure, seem to be either entirely made up news, or some REALLY risky stuff to let people publicly know if they truly do have access to that kind of information. I sincerely hope nintendo ninjas aren't already on their way to ruin their life with some stupid lawsuit.
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Without continuing this conversation too much, because I don't think it's interesting to the thread, I honestly think these latest tweets from Midori about Nintendo are to eliminate the view of her as a possible SEGA/Atlus marketing employee
 
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