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This can actually lower contrast as well. It's not about the range, but where on that dynamic range neighboring colors are, the reason the larger range is important is because the larger the range the further apart nearby colors contrast can be.

A large range being used for a super smooth gradient using that massive range of colors doesn't make for much contrast.

Sorry, that is not how dynamic range is defined. It's the simultaneous perception of every nuance in an image.
There's no optimum number of pixel to achieve the best perception of HDR, for example. The more you have, the more nuances you get. It just becomes irrelevant after a certain point.
 
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Sorry, that is not how dynamic range is defined.


Sorry, but it actually is:

DYNAMIC RANGE is the range of tonal difference between the lightest light and darkest dark of an image. The higher the dynamic range, the more potential shades can be represented, although the dynamic range does not automatically correlate to the number of tones reproduced

Then pair with contrast as per the context of the conversation:

the state of being strikingly different from something else in juxtaposition or close association.

And you get what makes hdr pop, high contrast between the brightest brights, and darkest darks, particularly when as per the concept of contrast, they are right next to each other, like stars in a night sky, or pock marks on a white wall.

And bobs your uncle.
 
Sorry, but it actually is:



Then pair with contrast as per the context of the conversation:



And you get what makes hdr pop, high contrast between the brightest brights, and darkest darks, particularly when as per the concept of contrast, they are right next to each other, like stars in a night sky, or pock marks on a white wall.

And bobs your uncle.

Man, I'm sorry to be blunt, but this is literally part of my job (I'm a spectroscopist by formation) and I'm not going to make the effort to explain you in layman's terms why you're wrong. I think I already did enough. Believe what you wish.
 
Man, I'm sorry to be blunt, but this is literally part of my job (I'm a spectroscopist by formation) and I'm not going to make the effort to explain you in layman's terms why you're wrong. I think I already did enough. Believe what you wish.

Yeah, so you've said before, except you completely missed the ball on the point of HDR and high contrast as increasing visual attractiveness of an artistic image, and maybe the concept of high dynamic range when shining a beam of electromagnetic radiation onto a sample, to observe how it responds doesn't really translate much with the concept of HDR what makes an artistic scene composition look better.
 
Polygon wise the 3DS is above Dreamcast with a modern feature set making it punch above is weight.

Essentially using said modern features creates really good looking games but polygon wise (and texture wise) is below the GameCube era console
 
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This was without a doubt Nintendos peak

fire_emblem_fates_n3dsxl.0.jpg
 
So what is the "typical" or "expected" leap in power between generations historically, like on average? 5x? I assume 2x would be the bare minimum?
I don't think a real number exists.
Even when it was just dot graphics, the change in colors and sprite limits varied on consoles and microcomputers.

We USED to measure graphic jumps in the 3D age based on how many millions of polygons could be pushed on screen but having multiple resolutions and multicore CPUs changed that playfield.
 
So what is the "typical" or "expected" leap in power between generations historically, like on average? 5x? I assume 2x would be the bare minimum?
For a console as a whole it was around 10x in real world performance traditionally. The massive losses during the PS360 era even after an eight year generation kind of changed that metric though with Sony and MS being very conservative with PS4XBO.
 
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With regards to generational leaps the measure of real world performance is only going to become more obfuscated with the introduction of Ray tracing and AI technology to help improve image quality of the final result. This will be even more difficult in Nvidias world where they have specialist hardware to accelerate the performance of both Ray tracing and AI inference.
 
Yeah, so you've said before, except you completely missed the ball on the point of HDR and high contrast as increasing visual attractiveness of an artistic image, and maybe the concept of high dynamic range when shining a beam of electromagnetic radiation onto a sample, to observe how it responds doesn't really translate much with the concept of HDR what makes an artistic scene composition look better.

Listen, you're wrong and it feels like I'm debating a climate change denier at this point; don't try to move goalpost and start talking about artistic scence composition, HDR has a specific definition and you clearly don't understand it. And HDR doesn't mean an image will look "better", this depends on the implementation and the tastes of the observer.
In photography, HDR images when pushed to an extreme often look like shit specifically because they appear flat; and this is because all the nuances are enhanced and made distinguishable. And what do you need to capture more nuances? More pixels. So yes, the original member who started discussing this topic was right: having more pixels gives you more felxibility when it comes to create an HDR image. Seriously, it's not rocket science, and it's ok to be wrong on the internet. Whether or not 1080p is enough to achieve a good HDR implementation is not what my original point was, and I made that clear several times.
And again, don't move goalposts, it doesn't make for a healthy debate.
 
With regards to generational leaps the measure of real world performance is only going to become more obfuscated with the introduction of Ray tracing and AI technology to help improve image quality of the final result. This will be even more difficult in Nvidias world where they have specialist hardware to accelerate the performance of both Ray tracing and AI inference.
There have always been better rendering techniques enabled by modern hardware, that has elevated a generational leap more than just raw numbers.

You could argue the same with the ssd s enabling features like nanite, and very fast asset streaming.

Or fixed function hardware in the 3ds.
 
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In photography, HDR images when pushed to an extreme often look like shit specifically because they appear flat; and this is because all the nuances are enhanced and made distinguishable. And what do you need to capture more nuances? More pixels.
I’m sorry, what?

You’re talking about exposure bracketing here, which is inherently a form of dynamic range compression. And has, again, literally nothing to do with resolution.
 
Why havent we heard anything from the uncles anymore for so long now (1-2 weeks+?)?
:ninja:
(The answer really is that usually we get multiple months of news drought between notable news from uncles, until new pieces enter production or they get new information they can’t give us news)
 
:ninja:
(The answer really is that usually we get multiple months of news drought between notable news from uncles)
Ah makes sense, thanks.

I really hope for a September reveal after Splatoon 3 launches. I think they really are taking Sonys approach of the PS4 Pro for their Switch Pro.
 
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I’m sorry, what?

You’re talking about exposure bracketing here, which is inherently a form of dynamic range compression. And has, again, literally nothing to do with resolution.

No, I'm talking about HDR images in general; I've explained enough how it relates to the number of pixels available, if you do not understand at this point, there's nothing more that I can do.
Also, bracketing the exposure is a way to increase the dynamic of an image; i.e. creating an HDR image. It results in a flattening of the histogram, and it often doesn't look great in my opinion.
 
No, I'm talking about HDR images in general; I've explained enough how it relates to the number of pixels available, if you do not understand at this point, there's nothing more that I can do.
Also, bracketing the exposure is a way to increase the dynamic of an image; i.e. creating an HDR image. It results in a flattening of the histogram, and it often doesn't look great in my opinion.
I know you're a great big smarty pants but you're also using arbitrary definitions of terms that have actual, agreed definitions within the context of the conversation, and then acting like we're all too dumb to understand you.

High dynamic range, within the context of a video signal, refers to the ability of a signal to carry both enhanced bit depth and enhanced luminance over SDR standards, and within the context of a display refers to the ability to display these signals.

Resolution is not a part of the standard.

The dynamic range of an image improves with resolution, if your test of dynamic range is to be able to display as many colors and shades at all levels of brightness as possible within a single frame, because having a larger canvas inherently provides more room to fit the color space of the signal. But that really doesn't have much to do with the conversation the rest of us are having.
 
Pour one out boys, we're waiting until September 😭
Why couldn't anything happen in the next two weeks though?
Anyway September have always felt very likely for many reasons.

One thing I'm more and more sure of is that lack of proper 1st party Direct since June is very suspicious and must have something to do with Drake.
 
I know you're a great big smarty pants but you're also using arbitrary definitions of terms that have actual, agreed definitions within the context of the conversation, and then acting like we're all too dumb to understand you.

So now, we are resorting to ad hominem? Why is the video games community the only one with this kind of toxicity.

I gave several example of how dynamic range works, and even followed you in your exposure bracketing mistake by providing a link explaining how exposure bracketing is specifically done to improve dynamic range. If you do not wish to understand, fine. It's not worth the hassle for me, I don't know why I spent so much time trying to make things clear. Have a good day.
 
If you do not wish to understand, fine. It's not worth the hassle for me, I don't know why I spent so much time trying to make things clear. Have a good day.
I guess it's not ad hominem if you're condescending to everyone around you rather than just one person.

Let's drop it, I agree.
 
What was the TLDR to this whole argument? Switch 2 should or shouldn't get a res bump to 1080p or more?
It emerged from another poster stating that higher resolution = higher contrast = better rendition of HDR content, which is...not correct.

To elaborate: Most important to good HDR performance is a screen's contrast ratio and max luminosity. Color accuracy next. Resolution last.
 
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Character models are looking great, but environment poly counts and rendering resolution are conservative. Textures are looking good though, think this will upscale nicely to 4k xD .
the game looks to have a more exploration focus. hitting that at 60fps would mean they would need to make concessions on the visual effects.
 
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Bayonetta is very art style based. Aside from the nice looking character models nothing about it looks particularly current gen. Will be great to see what Platinum can do with better hardware.
 
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Surprisingly, at least to my eyes, the footage in the Bayo 3 trailer looked clean/not too aliased.

With so much stuff going on onscreen, and (I assume) with a target framerate of 60fps, you would think that anti-aliasing wouldn't be a priority/would be one of the first things to go.

Admittedly cut scenes (pre-rendered/realtime?) are much cleaner, but still, I'm pleasantly surprised gameplay doesn't look like an aliased mess.
 
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So now, we are resorting to ad hominem? Why is the video games community the only one with this kind of toxicity.
Are you trolling? I mean, what do you think this is if not an ad hominem attack:
Listen, you're wrong and it feels like I'm debating a climate change denier at this point; don't try to move goalpost and start talking about artistic scence composition, HDR has a specific definition and you clearly don't understand it.
Or this, which is dismissive and rude and refuses to engage with the poster:
Man, I'm sorry to be blunt, but this is literally part of my job (I'm a spectroscopist by formation) and I'm not going to make the effort to explain you in layman's terms why you're wrong. I think I already did enough. Believe what you wish.
The others are right about what dynamic range and HDR are. Stop this.
 
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Listen, you're wrong and it feels like I'm debating a climate change denier at this point; don't try to move goalpost and start talking about artistic scence composition, HDR has a specific definition and you clearly don't understand it. And HDR doesn't mean an image will look "better", this depends on the implementation and the tastes of the observer.
In photography, HDR images when pushed to an extreme often look like shit specifically because they appear flat; and this is because all the nuances are enhanced and made distinguishable. And what do you need to capture more nuances? More pixels. So yes, the original member who started discussing this topic was right: having more pixels gives you more felxibility when it comes to create an HDR image. Seriously, it's not rocket science, and it's ok to be wrong on the internet. Whether or not 1080p is enough to achieve a good HDR implementation is not what my original point was, and I made that clear several times.
And again, don't move goalposts, it doesn't make for a healthy debate.
Haha oh my.

Guy, HDR is about the ability to to have high contrast between pixels that are supposed bright and dark.

its about the contrast having a dark pixel that's in shadow, right next to a bright pinpoint of bright light, without HDR you would have a dark grey and a light grey because of the way the screen was lit.

it also works exceptionally well in black and white styles like Film Noir. There is just no getting around this.

The most important aspect about an HDR screen is how bright it can get, and how dark it can get. That range right there.

if you fill that range, and that space between that bright pixel, and the dark one, with every shade and tone of the color from brightest to dark, you've completely defeated the purpose of HDR. Smooth gradients, are low contrast.
 
Maybe a stupid question but why should the handheld screen have any impact on them supporting HDR for high end TVs? Is there some technical reason they can enable it when you dock?

The same goes for another response saying they’ll need to focus on hitting 4K/60 - what does that 60fps target have anything to do with HDR?

I also said nothing about VRR, so that feels a bit out of place here…
VRR was mentioned by another wishful user.
Anyhow, having an option for HDR when docked but not in handheld mode is counter-intuitive.

Also, there's even more issues: the software itself has to support HDR and not only that, the video output. And you know nintendo, even when their hardware is capable of something, they won't do it. Recent eg: the switch OLED being theoretically capable of 4k out, nintendo just didn't bother.
 
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in addition to my previous rt lighting post, I want to touch on a more novel usage of RT that I can totally see Nintendo doing: RT audio. Breath of the Wild, be as naturalistic as it is, focuses greatly on natural sounds (BotW hAs No mUsIc! spongebob.webp). Nintendo enhancing that audio with RT? sounds like the bee's tits if you ask me






this one isn't ray traced, but "wave traced". I don't think it leverages RT hardware as it relies on pre-baked data




imagine flying around in Pokemon and you hear the shiny sound, but it's directional, unlike how it is in Pokemon Legends
 
That is literally the opposite of what I said.

Do you get a kick out of being smug about being wrong?

The Switch has an order of magnitude better GPU than the PS3. Sure the CELL architecture was. Interesting. But the PS3 is still way behind the Switch.
Tech specs aside, Switch performance is closer to PS3 than PS4. Nobody was being smug.
 
Closer to a handheld PS3 than to a PS4.*

No.

Let's not forget, the ps3 had 26 pixel shaders, and 8 vertex shaders. The CPU had to spend it's resources on shoring up the rsx, just to come out on top of an Xbox 360.

And it was not easy. Iirc a developer (maybe naughty dog?) Said it took something like 48 lines of code, just to be able to perform hello world on one of cells SPE's.

And that's just the most scalable aspect, the graphics output.

On a cpu instruction level, cell just can't cut it today. Yes it had pretty dang good single threaded performance, and the SPE's, but it's an in order processor, and the games that made the PS3 look it's best, were designed specifically around that. Predictable in order instructions, predictable access to memory predictable predictable predictable, ie, no branchy.

In today's games, cell would be hit with miss penalties non stop, it's inability to handle branching code, rearrange it's instructions to perform what's able to be done, instead of waiting on dependencies....

It can't run many modern games at ALL. These games would all have to be remade to cater to the cells inflexibility, and part of that would be removing a ton of all the simultaneous movement, environmental interaction (the difference between context sensitive push a here, watch animation, and gameplay where interacting with the environment just works) and details that have come to define current gen games, would have to go.

This is before we even get to putting something on screen, it can't even get started.
 
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in addition to my previous rt lighting post, I want to touch on a more novel usage of RT that I can totally see Nintendo doing: RT audio. Breath of the Wild, be as naturalistic as it is, focuses greatly on natural sounds (BotW hAs No mUsIc! spongebob.webp). Nintendo enhancing that audio with RT? sounds like the bee's tits if you ask me






this one isn't ray traced, but "wave traced". I don't think it leverages RT hardware as it relies on pre-baked data




imagine flying around in Pokemon and you hear the shiny sound, but it's directional, unlike how it is in Pokemon Legends


This is reusing results already calculated for lighting, for audio right? My immediate thought is, this should be repurposing calculations already done, and should provide a very nice feature, for a very nice cost.
 
Please read this new, consolidated staff post before posting.

Furthermore, according to this follow-up post, all off-topic chat will be moderated.
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