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You should take a good look at this new FuRyu RPG, Reynatis.
Especially at the names attached to it.
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Sales Data Famitsu Sales: Week 9, 2024 (Feb. 25 - Mar. 3)
- Thread starter Luminoth9090
- Start date
You should take a good look at this new FuRyu RPG, Reynatis.
Especially at the names attached to it.
that also requires you to play a Furyu rpg. a toss up
Soul Skater
Koopa
Idk how much of a difference it would have made here but I honestly wonder how many people there are out there around the world who don't even know this is second in a series of remakes and not just other one of the many random FF spin offs
Like, it really really probably should have been called Final Fantasy VII REMAKE: Part II
Like, it really really probably should have been called Final Fantasy VII REMAKE: Part II
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Final Fantasy hasn't had Final Fantasy-ass gameplay in ages. What's the solution here? Perpetually make games in the style of FFXV? Go back to X? XII? VII?
terribleidiot
Piranha Plant
I want them to just make one gorgeous PS1 style turn based RPG. Just to prove to me it wouldn’t see a fuckton of copies.
Evil Lucario
Star Successor
My thing with stuff like "Final Fantasy always changes" is that it's only partly true, especially during its golden years. It always had the same relative gameplay from 4 to 9, but with additions here and there to change the game.
- 4 invented ATB and simplified Jobs from 3 to only have one Job per character, and the game will force you into having specific characters.
- 5 went back to 3's Job system and heavily iterated on it, making it even better.
- 6 added Espers, but also sorta went back to 4's thing of forcing specific Jobs on characters and forcing a specific composition, with some exceptions.
- 7's Materia was more iteration on Espers and Limit Breaks were a proper implementation of Desperation Attacks from 6.
- 8 is the one that actually did change shit a bunch with Draw, level scaling, etc. And it's not exactly a surprise it was pretty divisive at first before people caught on.
- 9 is basically an amalgamation of a bunch of older Final Fantasy stuff.
10 onwards was when the gameplay kept changing a bunch, going from ATB to CTB in 10, MMO in 11, back to ATB in 10-2, pseudo real-time with pause (without the pause) in 12, etc. That's when the series lost that gameplay cohesion.
The main thing they always changed was the setting and lore, which was the other big appeal of Final Fantasy. But gameplay actually remained fairly consistent and more iterative than you think back in its heyday.
HockeyBird
Villager
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I think there a multiple factors for the stagnation of the Final Fantasy brand over the years that go beyond just gameplay decisions. Being exclusive to just one system is one of them but I think Square has mismanaged the brand since really the PS2 era. They used to be more reserved with using the Final Fantasy brand and name. Back then, you only had the mainline series and maybe a few spinoffs on handhelds or something like Tactics. But with the advent of mobile gaming, they started putting the Final Fantasy brand more loosely. Tons of mobile games. Weird spinoffs. Compilations of things. When you used to hear the Final Fantasy name, it was something to get excited for. You had reason to believe that it was going to be Square's biggest RPG with the most budget and time put on it. Now it's kind of a grab bag of things.
And almost paradoxical, I think the growing gap between mainline releases also hurts them. Yes, I just said that they started diluting the brand with all sorts of spinoff games but they're also not putting out mainline titles quick enough. If you loved FF15, you had to wait 7 years for FF16. That's over half of a decade where a game isn't bring in new fans. It used to be that you only had to wait every few years. The gap between games started on the PS2 with the long wait between X and XII and it's only gotten bigger since.
So essentially my point is, too long of a wait between mainline games and too much just ok stuff in between that use the Final Fantasy brand.
And almost paradoxical, I think the growing gap between mainline releases also hurts them. Yes, I just said that they started diluting the brand with all sorts of spinoff games but they're also not putting out mainline titles quick enough. If you loved FF15, you had to wait 7 years for FF16. That's over half of a decade where a game isn't bring in new fans. It used to be that you only had to wait every few years. The gap between games started on the PS2 with the long wait between X and XII and it's only gotten bigger since.
So essentially my point is, too long of a wait between mainline games and too much just ok stuff in between that use the Final Fantasy brand.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Manakete
FF7R is basically what the games always seemed to want to be, ATB was Square wanting to combine action gameplay with traditional RPG gameplay.
4-6 were also extremely unpopular outside of Japan at release so we're basically just at 7, 8, 9 for "consistent gameplay styles" for the franchise's fans and all three of those games are very different from each other in terms of gameplay.
4-6 were also extremely unpopular outside of Japan at release so we're basically just at 7, 8, 9 for "consistent gameplay styles" for the franchise's fans and all three of those games are very different from each other in terms of gameplay.
terribleidiot
Piranha Plant
All of this also ignores that 14 is a phenomenon. People love it. But it’s also become THE FF game for a lot of people. We’re at a point where a lot of people who love FF the most and are most passionate about FF are not going to play a new game. Because 14 is their game and they can just keep playing that in perpetuity.
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FFIX came out in 2000. It's twice as old now as FFI was when FFIX came out. When the series hasn't really been "consistent" in over two decades I think it's time to abandon this idea that it's somehow a core part of its identity or somehow integral to the series finding success again. Especially when there were very successful entries like X, XV or the MMOs after this "golden era".
ItWasMeantToBe19
Manakete
Square has been remaking FF9 for like 4-5 years already.
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Trolling aside, it is very unlikely. This number is small for Final Fantasy but it's still somewhat big compared to most third party releases. Dragon's Dogma 2 does come out on PC in Japan as far as I can tell though, and PC sales have started carrying software a bit, so maybe it's possible.
Evil Lucario
Star Successor
I mean, I don't think it's a huge coincidence that after it started "experimenting", it also lost fans and caused the massive divides you see now. But yes, Final Fantasy has made its bed with its current direction for over twenty years, so it had to live with it going forward to some successes here and there but also a lot of controversy.
Decades of bad decisions are starting to really catch up to FF. Bad decisions in management, development, how the series is viewed and approached...
I think that, in many ways, they will have to reinvent the series now. There is no easy solution to the decline at this point.
I think that, in many ways, they will have to reinvent the series now. There is no easy solution to the decline at this point.
The problem with FF and its commercial performance in Japan is, in my opinion, very complex and difficult to explain without taking various aspects into account. But what I think we can say for sure is that it's part of the general gradual decline in relevance of typical AAA and PlayStation games in that market. In that sense, it's nothing special / out of the ordinary. At the same time, factors such as the ageing fan base and the franchise's identity crisis, if you will, certainly also play a significant role in FF's case in particular compared to other IPs. Add to that PlayStation exclusivity, the fact that this is a direct sequel, the increasing success of JRPGs in the West, and probably a few other points I'm overlooking right now... -- it's a wild mix of influences that are increasingly pulling FF down with them.
What I find so interesting is the contrast with FF XV, which was received rather okay-ish / well critically, but commercially all the more successful. Maybe the approach there wasn't all that wrong. In some respects, XVI and VIIR are a step backwards from XV. This could also have been a major sticking point for many interested folks.
What I find so interesting is the contrast with FF XV, which was received rather okay-ish / well critically, but commercially all the more successful. Maybe the approach there wasn't all that wrong. In some respects, XVI and VIIR are a step backwards from XV. This could also have been a major sticking point for many interested folks.
Vernal
Apologist
I think we cannot pin down FF not selling in Japan as the result of the series not having a defined gameplay identity - it hasn't had one in ages. In general it seems dubious to argue that even for worldwide sales when XV exists.
The problem with Final Fantasy's JP sales has mostly to do with the state of PlayStation in the region. What was the last franchise not on Switch that grew from a prior entry? I asked myself this question when Like a Dragon 8 surpassed 7's sales. Now, I do not keep up with sales data too extensively, but it felt like such a rare sight, and that's because it probably was. PS is a declining platform in the region, at least when it comes to premium (i.e. paid) software, that much we can tell. So if the problem is JP sales (and it partially cannot not be) then there's no way to address this other than building these games around Nintendo's console. PC, even if slowly on the uptick, is simply not enough to make the difference (again, speaking strictly about Japan).
If, on the other hand, WW sales were so good that they could more than make up for the massive decline in what once was a huge market for the series then the problem would be dramatically lessened. Of course there would still be the question of recruiting the best talent in the country becoming harder but in the grand scheme of things? Nowhere near as problematic as what we're seeing happen now.
In general it's honestly not ideal to see the biggest third party players in the region forgo scoping around and releasing games on Switch, as they're indirectly slowly losing any sort of relevancy they once had in the mass market to Nintendo. If this keep up they'll be the only publisher selling blockbusters to Japanese consumers, far from a desirable outcome.
The problem with Final Fantasy's JP sales has mostly to do with the state of PlayStation in the region. What was the last franchise not on Switch that grew from a prior entry? I asked myself this question when Like a Dragon 8 surpassed 7's sales. Now, I do not keep up with sales data too extensively, but it felt like such a rare sight, and that's because it probably was. PS is a declining platform in the region, at least when it comes to premium (i.e. paid) software, that much we can tell. So if the problem is JP sales (and it partially cannot not be) then there's no way to address this other than building these games around Nintendo's console. PC, even if slowly on the uptick, is simply not enough to make the difference (again, speaking strictly about Japan).
If, on the other hand, WW sales were so good that they could more than make up for the massive decline in what once was a huge market for the series then the problem would be dramatically lessened. Of course there would still be the question of recruiting the best talent in the country becoming harder but in the grand scheme of things? Nowhere near as problematic as what we're seeing happen now.
In general it's honestly not ideal to see the biggest third party players in the region forgo scoping around and releasing games on Switch, as they're indirectly slowly losing any sort of relevancy they once had in the mass market to Nintendo. If this keep up they'll be the only publisher selling blockbusters to Japanese consumers, far from a desirable outcome.
MilkyChance
Cappy
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I think it’s time for the main Final Fantasy games to come home to Nintendo platforms
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Final Fantasy's issues definitely started as a platform one but now it's far more than that. Most of their target audience hasn't grown up with FF at all. I think whenever Square makes a mainline game for the Switch successor it will sell well in Japan but it will take a lot of time and growth to become relevant again in quite the same way.
Vernal
Apologist
Yep, being on the market leader's platform is far from a guaranteed success. In a way, as third party support increases so does the competition within in. Couple that with FF's (likely) aging fanbase and well, it sure is an uphill battle.
MilkyChance
Cappy
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And I mean, if they need help porting, I’m sure Nintendo would help on compression to ensure the game can fit in a cart and show them how to do so. Otherwise, they can always hire experienced port developers to help. SE is highly mismanaged, while it is easier to work on 1 platform, it’s also now a financial risk if they will get a bigger return
ItWasMeantToBe19
Manakete
Nintendo fits their games on carts by making the textures and normal maps low resolution and lowers the quality of the music and FMVs, lol.
It's not rocket science to do.
fourfourfun
Moblin
Square have form for binning off working on a game if they feel like it isn’t working out for them - that FFXV content. If they run the numbers, could they simply decide not to make a final part?
Tentacle-tropes
Kremling
This is the other part of having a declining brand in JP. This is something which Capcom has commented on as well.
Síriocaz
Xenoblade Enjoyer
Still no word about that.
They could, but let's not kid ourselves, the game is probably doing at least okay.
7threst
Hello, lady of the house speaking?
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Optimalisation, the thing Nintendo actually does, nears rocket science though. Few come close towards Nintendo 's wizardry in optimalisation. Only developers like Shin' en can compare.
ziggyrivers
thunder
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Before saying that the series is declining we need to take a step back and consider the sales of Rebirth in a year and in several regions.
We also have to be intellectually honest and consider that FINAL FANTASY XV was available almost in every console possible and had a loooooot of marketing, plus continuous free updates and DLC.
There are a lot or factors that benefitted FFXV, and there are several factors that, don’t hurt FF’s XVI and Rebirth, but rather limit them.
We also have to be intellectually honest and consider that FINAL FANTASY XV was available almost in every console possible and had a loooooot of marketing, plus continuous free updates and DLC.
There are a lot or factors that benefitted FFXV, and there are several factors that, don’t hurt FF’s XVI and Rebirth, but rather limit them.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Manakete
I think Square is just frustrated trying to figure out what's holding them back from reaching like God of War's success.
It's not really clear at all to me why God of War Ragnarok sold so much more than Rebirth.
7threst
Hello, lady of the house speaking?
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Yes, this is very true. The marketing for Rebirth almost feel non-existant.
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The series saw a pretty sharp decline with IX which X then reverted. XII might have been a bit of a dud sales wise but XIII, XV and the MMOs were all pretty successful, much more than the traditional, non-experimental entry.
Kenka
Like Like
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FF8 passed the 6 million copies bar in 1999, the year of its release. FFXIII reached 6.6 million in 2013, four years after its release.The series saw a pretty sharp decline with IX which X then reverted. XII might have been a bit of a dud sales wise but XIII, XV and the MMOs were all pretty successful, much more than the traditional, non-experimental entry.
IX released when the ps2 was already out in Japan and a few months away in the rest of the worldThe series saw a pretty sharp decline with IX which X then reverted. XII might have been a bit of a dud sales wise but XIII, XV and the MMOs were all pretty successful, much more than the traditional, non-experimental entry.
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I wasn't talking about 8
Not that different from FFXII which also sold better
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- Pronouns
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God of War 2018 reached 94 on metacritic, versus 87 for VIIRemake. Its reception and release was a major industry event, and it’s sold over 23 million by now. The two were in totally different leagues on so many fronts - from Sony’s first party marketing treatment (ie. VIIR got some of this, but Kratos was everywhere), to pacing, story execution, and completeness of the offering. Word was out that VIIRemake was a padded early slice of an old game. I loved what it did but it’s a less obvious recommend to me.
Rebirth, as accessible as some might say it is for a standalone, is still clearly a direct sequel. There could easily have been more people that completed God of War 2018 eager to play the sequel than those that bought VIIRemake, let alone finished it. Adding to this: Ragnarok was also a PS4 + PS5 title, unlike Rebirth; And despite some criticism on being more of the same, Ragnarok landed a 94 MC, still higher than Rebirth.
I’m not surprised Ragnarok did much much better. I don’t know why anybody would be surprised.
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Elementary
Tektite
There's a lot of digital ink being spilled over why FF is selling less, but there's a very obvious reason for it's declining relevance. Final Fantasy games don't come out very often anymore. When the brand was at its strongest in the PSX era*, it'd had three consecutive generations with three FF games each, at the beginning middle and end of the generation. Since every FF game was on the most popular console of it's era, that meant that the greatest number of people (casuals, kids, vets, core) would be exposed to it.
Starting with the PS3 that wasn't quite true anymore. Sure the FF13 trilogy was a thing but even Square-Enix doesn't count 13-2 and 13-3 as mainline entries. 13's delay meant that it solidly missed the PS3's early period, and thus an entire crowd of people. 13's negative reception meant that non-series fans who might have become series fans got turned off instead, and two more direct sequels on the PS3 meant that potential fans who heard the negative word of mouth didn't play Final Fantasy for an entire generation. That's brand damage.
"But what about FF15?" is the obvious reply, to which the response is similarly obvious. That game had a 10-year marketing and hype cycle, with a very cool trailer that explained nothing about what the game actually would be and allowed everyone to lay their expectations over it. When FF13 landed flat, people could console themselves by saying that Versus and Type-0 (lol) would be good. It anchored multiple tradeshows, had a multimedia blitz pre-release, and the entire gaming press pushing it as the next big thing.
Thus while it sold amazingly, the fact that most people don't like it compounds the brand damage. It's just like Duke Nukem Forever, but with a long sales tail.
In previous generations, one game landing badly might not have been a problem. If you didn't like 4's weirdness, 5 had the class system. If you didn't like 8's story, you could play 9. For the last 15 years you've gotten one Final Fantasy per numbered Sony console, so if you didn't like it, you'd play something else. And if you weren't excited for the next Final Fantasy, you might not buy the console at all.
And this is all without getting into the consequences of skipping the Wii, 3DS, and Switch. I didn't bookmark that legendary InstallBase post about how the third-party environment shifted under the feet of companies like Square-Enix, so if someone who did could link that I'd appreciate it, but avoiding where players actually are hurts your brand too.
*(The PS2 had three as well, I just don't want to touch the subject of FF11.)
Starting with the PS3 that wasn't quite true anymore. Sure the FF13 trilogy was a thing but even Square-Enix doesn't count 13-2 and 13-3 as mainline entries. 13's delay meant that it solidly missed the PS3's early period, and thus an entire crowd of people. 13's negative reception meant that non-series fans who might have become series fans got turned off instead, and two more direct sequels on the PS3 meant that potential fans who heard the negative word of mouth didn't play Final Fantasy for an entire generation. That's brand damage.
"But what about FF15?" is the obvious reply, to which the response is similarly obvious. That game had a 10-year marketing and hype cycle, with a very cool trailer that explained nothing about what the game actually would be and allowed everyone to lay their expectations over it. When FF13 landed flat, people could console themselves by saying that Versus and Type-0 (lol) would be good. It anchored multiple tradeshows, had a multimedia blitz pre-release, and the entire gaming press pushing it as the next big thing.
Thus while it sold amazingly, the fact that most people don't like it compounds the brand damage. It's just like Duke Nukem Forever, but with a long sales tail.
In previous generations, one game landing badly might not have been a problem. If you didn't like 4's weirdness, 5 had the class system. If you didn't like 8's story, you could play 9. For the last 15 years you've gotten one Final Fantasy per numbered Sony console, so if you didn't like it, you'd play something else. And if you weren't excited for the next Final Fantasy, you might not buy the console at all.
And this is all without getting into the consequences of skipping the Wii, 3DS, and Switch. I didn't bookmark that legendary InstallBase post about how the third-party environment shifted under the feet of companies like Square-Enix, so if someone who did could link that I'd appreciate it, but avoiding where players actually are hurts your brand too.
*(The PS2 had three as well, I just don't want to touch the subject of FF11.)
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I'll also add that God of War has done a great job of making sure that people from all different age demographics get into the series. It's very popular with teens, young adults and older adults alike. Mainline Final Fantasy? I'm not too sure. XIV maybe but the spinoffs for these games have become lower quality and also less of a big deal overtime. And the main releases generally feel like they are catered towards the same people who've always liked FF despite them repeatedly trying to find new audiences.
I will say that Square's marketing department knows how to make really good trailers though, so I actually somewhat get being surprised that these games don't sell better. I don't think that alone would make them sell GOW numbers though, you'd need positive word of mouth from more than just FF fans.
Lugia667
Gerudo
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I mean you can say the same for Zelda but it sells better than ever before, so it has to be more than that
Jon Turner
Rattata
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In a way they are starting to. Switch got FF7-9, 10, 12, and 15 (chibi). All of which never came to any Nintendo system before. I consider that a huge win. That said, yes, it would be preferable if the next FF and these current timed exclusives hit Switch 2 once they expire.
Tentacle-tropes
Kremling
I’m really not sure how one can say that the entry that sold amazing, legging it over 10mil, was disliked. Nor how we can compare that to Duke Nukem Forever. Meanwhile the last two FF games seem to be struggling to a degree reaching that same barometer.
robertman2
Chain Chomp
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You have been threadbanned for using dismissive and extreme language when disagreeing with another user. Purposeful hyperbole can derail otherwise productive conversation. -xghost777, meatbag, Barely Able
This is one of the worst posts on this site. Absolutely gross.
there's no one solution, especially since, as you said, there's no normalcy in decades. but following up the 10M seller is a good start. especially when we can see the actual follow up not breaking 5M yet. so there's drop-off that they should tackle.
call it gross all you want, but I'm basically describing Final Fantasy 1 but more modernized with DQ9 elements
thoughthaver
Chain Chomp
I was gonna make a gaas ff joke but I remembered the mmos are basically that
but what if looter shooter gaas final fantasy
Elementary
Tektite
Zelda's averaged two per console since the NES. Also Nintendo's been much more careful about the quality of the games. Zelda might take a while but you don't hear "development is a mess" stories.
I made pretty clear why I think 15 sold the way it did. Tons of marketing, a 10-year long hype cycle, relief over it finally coming out, and disappointment in its sibling games. The extremely impressive tail is a result of deep discounts, the strength of the brand, and lots of post-release support. But selling as well as it did is part of the reason that I think FF is down like it is now. XV wasn't great and a lot of people experienced that first hand. XV is a game that people look upon worse now than they did at release, and that impression has gotten worse over time.
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robertman2
Chain Chomp
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reported to the modsI was gonna make a gaas ff joke but I remembered the mmos are basically that
but what if looter shooter gaas final fantasy
ItWasMeantToBe19
Manakete
"Return to the roots of when the franchise was a small fraction of its popularity"
yea, like Zelda did!
ItWasMeantToBe19
Manakete
Before BotW, the best selling Zelda game was Twilight Princess at 8.85m
Zelda 1 sold 6.51m
Basically every entry sold between 4m and 8m, Zelda 1 included.
The best selling Final Fantasy game other than 14 is 15 at over 10m and FF7 PS1 at around 10m.
FF1 sold 1.3m.
Also, BotW has nothing in common with Zelda 1 and this is just a meme.
I don’t know.
I think Classic Final Fantasy could do very well.
I think Classic Final Fantasy could do very well.
Tentacle-tropes
Kremling
I mean no, this game did not have a 10yr hype cycle for the vast majority of its consumer base. It very much had a normal marketing cycle once fully announced. The other two are non factors. And while tons of marketing helps it doesn’t matter if people don’t like the game as we saw w/16, as an example.
You don’t continue to sell that long due only to deep discounts, arguable brand strength, & post release support that ended years prior. If the impression had gotten worse then the legs for the game would have stopped long ago. No I think it fair to say that 15 is still looked upon favorably.
The reason the brand is down now has little to do with 15 & everything to do with SE mismanaging it over the last decade. In a similar conversation as 3H vs Enagage. The mistake was not learning what people liked about 15 & making a follow up to it.
