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Discussion Do you think the Sonic franchise "deserves" or "needs" special treatement next to the other third party series in Smash like many seem to think?

I don’t care about Sonic’s moveset (I think it’s fine), or the lack of Shadow as an Echo Fighter, or even the lack of new arrangements of Sonic music. I just want Tails. That’s all I think Smash really needs for Sonic to feel well represented. Having Sonic without Tails is like having Mario without Luigi. Eggman would be better used as an Assist Trophy like Dr. Wily, I feel, unless we were to get multiple Sonic newcomers.

I think the reason why people think Sonic deserves “special treatment” (though I wouldn’t call it that; I’d say appropriate treatment) in Smash is because of Sonic’s high popularity among Nintendo fans. Remember, Sonic was the single most requested third-party fighter for Smash—that’s why he was chosen as the very first third-party fighter in Smash whose creator didn’t literally beg Sakurai to add them to the game, lol. There is no more popular third-party character among the general Nintendo/Smash audience. And then you have to consider things like how Sonic games always sell best on Nintendo systems, and the existence of stuff like Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games, etc. Sonic is often compared to and associated with Mario, and if Mario can have nine fighters in Smash (and that’s not including Yoshi, Wario, or the Donkey Kong characters, nor does it count the Koopalings), then Sonic deserves at least one additional fighter, especially given how character-focused the series is.
 
Sonic doesn't need anything. While Tails or Eggman (as a boss, AT, or fighter) would be nice, they're not the most important things in the world. Also maybe a stage that isn't so green and hilly. Regardless of what would be cool, his absolute baseline stuff that's gotta be in a crossover is covered though.

SEGA's hardware history overall sure as hell deserves more though. The Mega Drive outsold multiple Nintendo consoles and the Saturn beat the 64 on its home turf. When you look at how many PlayStation all stars joined Smash's battle royale during Ultimate's DLC and notice literally only Sonic and an Akira AT from SEGA's hardware history, it kind of stands out! VF either needs a full fledged fighter or Phantasy Star needs to get in on this action, as both of them have (in some form) been active for 30+ years.
 
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Third party guests are just not going to get the same coverage as a Nintendo franchise. Maybe Shadow would make sense, if they just have to darken his textures and duct tape a gun on.
 
arguin over who "Deserves" to be a smash goes on forever. Especially when anything "anime" is involved
 
Tye said:
I don’t care about Sonic’s moveset (I think it’s fine), or the lack of Shadow as an Echo Fighter, or even the lack of new arrangements of Sonic music. I just want Tails. That’s all I think Smash really needs for Sonic to feel well represented. Having Sonic without Tails is like having Mario without Luigi. Eggman would be better used as an Assist Trophy like Dr. Wily, I feel, unless we were to get multiple Sonic newcomers.

I think the reason why people think Sonic deserves “special treatment” (though I wouldn’t call it that; I’d say appropriate treatment) in Smash is because of Sonic’s high popularity among Nintendo fans. Remember, Sonic was the single most requested third-party fighter for Smash—that’s why he was chosen as the very first third-party fighter in Smash whose creator didn’t literally beg Sakurai to add them to the game, lol. There is no more popular third-party character among the general Nintendo/Smash audience. And then you have to consider things like how Sonic games always sell best on Nintendo systems, and the existence of stuff like Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games, etc. Sonic is often compared to and associated with Mario, and if Mario can have nine fighters in Smash (and that’s not including Yoshi, Wario, or the Donkey Kong characters, nor does it count the Koopalings), then Sonic deserves at least one additional fighter, especially given how character-focused the series is.
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I would love to see Tails in Smash, especially for how creative they could get with his moveset. Like maybe he doesn't even punch or kick, and uses his tails for all the attacks! It'd be so cute! Sakurai and his team would do him justice, I strongly believe.

and it'd be so much more satisfying than building Grimdark Vegetavoice The Hedgehog as a simple echo of Sonic
 
Jbone916 said:
I know Shadow is popular in certain Sonic fandom circles, but there’s no way he’s more well known/liked by the general audience than Eggman/Robotnik, Tails, or Knuckles.
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Yeah I'd be curious to see the numbers on this. I'm pretty sure in fan polls Shadow wins a lot, but I'm not sure this is proof he's as iconic / well-known as Eggman, Tails, or even Knuckles. Honestly, the fact that he's not in Frontiers and is just now getting in a movie tells me at the very least he doesn't eclipse the other characters that much.
 
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Jbone916 said:
I know Shadow is popular in certain Sonic fandom circles, but there’s no way he’s more well known/liked by the general audience than Eggman/Robotnik, Tails, or Knuckles.
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This was a Sega Japan poll from 2018, and while the vote numbers aren't huge, we certainly don't have much reason to think this is off.

This remains generally true in the wider fanbase as well, like, shadow isn't some noname with zero pull, there's enough pull behind him that they were confident in using him as the end credit scene of the second movie, which would make no sense if only the ultra hardcore were interested in him.

Like, knuckles has only been around for 7 years more than him, SA2 was 22 years ago, and he's constantly been that popular. Shadow the hedgehog the game was even a result of them determining which was the most popular non sonic character for them to make a game of. It didn't turn out well, but that's not really relevant to the popularity question, Sega was just making bad sonic games in general by that point.
 
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chocolate_supra said:
As a Tails fan, this hurts me. Can't even count on Japan to gravitate towards cute anymore 😩
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Could be worse, my preferred character to get more of a focus outside of Sonic is Blaze the cat, and I know I have a better chance of waking up tomorrow having been declared king of the planet than getting to play as her in a main game again any time soon.
 
Linkstrikesback said:
Could be worse, my preferred character to get more of a focus outside of Sonic is Blaze the cat, and I know I have a better chance of waking up tomorrow having been declared king of the planet than getting to play as her in a main game again any time soon.
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ugghhh Blaze 😩

They tried to bring her into the mainline games once, but for Sonic 06, and I wonder if Sega doesn't want anything from that game coming back.
 
Nah, he's still a third party character. I mean would an original new character or echo be cool? Yeah

But it's not an obligation. That's just the vocal minority of the Smash Bros kids on Twitter asking about it.
 
chocolate_supra said:
I would love to see Tails in Smash, especially for how creative they could get with his moveset. Like maybe he doesn't even punch or kick, and uses his tails for all the attacks! It'd be so cute! Sakurai and his team would do him justice, I strongly believe.

and it'd be so much more satisfying than building Grimdark Vegetavoice The Hedgehog as a simple echo of Sonic
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I wouldn’t even mind getting Shadow as a Sonic Echo Fighter, ‘cause I love Shadow too, but Tails is an absolute must. I don’t even think he needs a particularly unique moveset, honestly, and I kinda envision him as being an Isabelle-esque derivative of Sonic. Keep the Spin Dash, Spin Charge, and Homing Attack, but change the Up Special and a bunch of normal moves to utilize his Tails, and give him unique animations and proportions, and that’s really all they need to do! Well, plus a new Final Smash, too. Really, though, I think that would be best for Tails, and it wouldn’t take as much resources as making a completely unique newcomer either since he can be largely based on Sonic, and it makes sense for him to be a derivative of Sonic in Smash anyway.
 
Sonic's moveset is kinda bad though I'm kinda leery on fan moveset ideas, since a lot of them fall into the usual pitfalls of those (overly focused on references, making something extremely overpowered, etc). A lot of his more egregious blue balls attacks got redone in Smash 4 anyway. Like, you could give him a boost dash rush strike thing for his side special I guess, but I don't know how much that solves the fundamental issues with how he's played, and there's a fine line to walk between making a move that sucks and a move that's extremely oppressive

Beyond that he's fine, idk what people are on about
 
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sonic is garbo and him being in smash is more than the series deserves tbh

legitimately the first character id remove from ultimates roster given the chance
 
Tye said:
I wouldn’t even mind getting Shadow as a Sonic Echo Fighter, ‘cause I love Shadow too, but Tails is an absolute must. I don’t even think he needs a particularly unique moveset, honestly, and I kinda envision him as being an Isabelle-esque derivative of Sonic. Keep the Spin Dash, Spin Charge, and Homing Attack, but change the Up Special and a bunch of normal moves to utilize his Tails, and give him unique animations and proportions, and that’s really all they need to do! Well, plus a new Final Smash, too. Really, though, I think that would be best for Tails, and it wouldn’t take as much resources as making a completely unique newcomer either since he can be largely based on Sonic, and it makes sense for him to be a derivative of Sonic in Smash anyway.
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I'm just picturing Tails fighting by whipping his tails and then Shantae fighting by whipping her hair, and then just having ridiculous Tails v Shantae battles 🤣
 
chocolate_supra said:
Not as playable in a main game though. He's had, what, like a cameo in Generations?
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silver was just hanging around in forces without any acknowledgement by the other characters about how weird it was he'd be involved at all. sonic team treats him as a mainstay now even though he's got no real reason to be one

blaze did show up in murder of sonic the hedgehog and just casually drops that she's from a different reality so she's figured out how to traverse the dimensions whenever she wants now
 
chocolate_supra said:
Not as playable in a main game though. He's had, what, like a cameo in Generations?
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Right, as a boss fight, which I'd say is more than a cameo, but anyway. If this is the standard we're going to go by, then since like, sonic heroes, for sonic games that were actually made by sega (otherwise, Sonic has numerous outsourced but still platformer titles which have multiple characters including silver) , the only other playable character in a main game more than once has been shadow. Silver was in Sonic 06, and that's it for internal sonic games from sonic team, Tails/Knuckles/Amy are finally get a playable appearance in Sonic frontiers DLC, I forget if that's out yet, but otherwise, they've all been sonic, maybe shadow and nothing more. Shadow was in Shadow the hedgehog, Sonic 06, the boss fight in generations, the DLC in Sonic forces, which is still a significantly better 'main game' appearance rate than anyone else from the actual sonic team games.
 
look if they’re not gonna give me a Yakuza representation at least give me Hornet from Daytona USA standing up like in Fighters Megamix
 
I was definitely surprised Shadow wasn’t at least an echo. I think that franchise deserved a little more.
 
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Tangerine_Cookie said:
A tangent to this entire discussion: Bayonetta is probably counted as the second Sega rep copyright/IP wise.
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Angel Whispers said:
Joker, too.
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I.... don't like this but yall're right 😕

come on though, Sega... Alex Kidd, NiGHTS, Ryo Hazuki, Vyse, Gum, Amigo, Ulala, AiAi, literally anyone from Streets of Rage or Virtua Fighter...
 
Tangerine_Cookie said:
A tangent to this entire discussion: Bayonetta is probably counted as the second Sega rep copyright/IP wise.
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That shouldn’t stop us from getting a second Sonic fighter. Konami, Capcom, and Square Enix all have two IPs represented with fighters in Smash with each company having a total of three fighters in the game (counting Sora as Disney rather than Square Enix), and Castlevania, Street Fighter, and Final Fantasy already all have two fighters each, with Final Fantasy’s second fighter even being fully unique and not just an Echo Fighter. There’s absolutely no reason why Bayonetta (and/or Joker) would be limiting us from getting a second Sonic fighter. Also, I don’t think Sakurai really views guest fighters as repping a particular company rather than representing specific series, so I don’t think it really makes sense to look at it in that way, anyway.
 
chocolate_supra said:
The topic of discussion is "let's shit on the Sonic franchise?" I mean I know people are using this thread as an opportunity to do so but... 🤨
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topic: should sonic get special treatment in smash yes or no.

following up a yes or no with why you feel that ways seems pretty normal? so yes? thats the point of the thread?
 
james said:
topic: should sonic get special treatment in smash yes or no.

following up a yes or no with why you feel that ways seems pretty normal? so yes? thats the point of the thread?
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If your reasoning for feeling that way is "Sonic is Garbo and being in Smash is more than the series deserves, and he'd be the first character I'd cut" is just a bit.. aggressive? And a bit rude towards people who actually like the series. Can we discuss Sonic series representation in Smash without this turning into yet another thread of people shitting on the series and its fans?
 
chocolate_supra said:
If your reasoning for feeling that way is "Sonic is Garbo and being in Smash is more than the series deserves, and he'd be the first character I'd cut" is just a bit.. aggressive? And a bit rude towards people who actually like the series. Can we discuss Sonic series representation in Smash without this turning into yet another thread of people shitting on the series and its fans?
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i mean, i was pretty content to leave it at what i said lol, yall are the ones dragging this out now

also its just a video game series, i would recommend not taking someone calling a series garbage as rude towards you, personally.
 
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chocolate_supra said:
If your reasoning for feeling that way is "Sonic is Garbo and being in Smash is more than the series deserves, and he'd be the first character I'd cut" is just a bit.. aggressive? And a bit rude towards people who actually like the series. Can we discuss Sonic series representation in Smash without this turning into yet another thread of people shitting on the series and its fans?
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All they said was the series is garbo. Chill fam.
 
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I dunno what it is about Sonic haters, but more than any other character in Smash, it’s always been common to see people jump at any chance to say how much they hate Sonic being in Smash and would love for him to be removed. Ironic, considering that, as I mentioned above, Sonic was literally the single most requested third-party character for Smash. Maybe that’s why the people who don’t like him feel the need to complain about it so much, ‘cause they know they’re very much the (annoyingly vocal) minority? =P

It’s such a weird stance to take, too, ‘cause out of all the third-party fighters in Smash, aside from being the most requested, I find Sonic to easily be the most fitting. To dislike Sonic is one thing, but to say he doesn’t even belong in Smash is honestly a delusional take.
 
Tye said:
I dunno what it is about Sonic haters, but more than any other character in Smash, it’s always been common to see people jump at any chance to say how much they hate Sonic being in Smash and would love for him to be removed.
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As a Fire Emblem fan, I disagree
 
Derachi said:
look if they’re not gonna give me a Yakuza representation at least give me Hornet from Daytona USA standing up like in Fighters Megamix
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I think Yakuza characters like Kiryu or Judgment characters like Yagami would suit Tekken or Virtua Fighter more tbh.
If we got more SEGA properties in Smash, I'd choose an IP like Sakura Wars or Phantasy Star.
 
Metroid said:
As a Fire Emblem fan, I disagree
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Fire Emblem gets a lot of hate for having so many fighters (even though it makes perfect sense for the series, but few people care to consider and understand context and all, unfortunately), but you don’t really see people advocating to remove Fire Emblem from Smash entirely or arguing that it should’ve never been in Smash in the first place as you regularly see people say about Sonic.
 
Tye said:
Fire Emblem gets a lot of hate for having so many fighters (even though it makes perfect sense for the series, but few people care to consider context and all, unfortunately), but you don’t really see people advocating to remove Fire Emblem from Smash entirely or arguing that it should’ve never been in Smash in the first place as you regularly see people say about Sonic.
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You would be surprised then
 
Quoted by: Tye
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Tye said:
Fire Emblem gets a lot of hate for having so many fighters (even though it makes perfect sense for the series, but few people care to consider and understand context and all, unfortunately), but you don’t really see people advocating to remove Fire Emblem from Smash entirely or arguing that it should’ve never been in Smash in the first place as you regularly see people say about Sonic.
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I mean, you kinda do actually lol.
 
Quoted by: Tye
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