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Discussion Do you think the Sonic franchise "deserves" or "needs" special treatement next to the other third party series in Smash like many seem to think?

ILovethegameAC

ILovethegameAC

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Maybe it's just me, but it seems that a lot of people in the Nintendo community are incredibly mad about Sonic's representation in Smash, first because of the boring moveset and stages he has and because Shadow wasn't an eco fighter in Ultimate, which is understandable to be mad about, however a lot of people seem to be mad there are no more characters, many seem to believe Eggman and Tails, and more characters even, deserve to be in Smash and is a tragedy they are not in.

(this tweet with thousands of likes is one of the many examples I have seen and the comment that inspired me to make this post)





Plus if you see fake roseters online they often have at least 3 Sonic characters meanwhile other third party series have mostly just 1

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Now the question is, do you agree with this? The series overall has been treated more or less equaly to the other third party series, so those comment suggest it should have an special treatement, Personally I don't agree and all these just make Sonic fans looks incredibly arrogant, like if the series was the center of the world, but that's just me.
 
Dardan Sandiego said:
he does deserve special treatment

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Sonic when he tells Shadow he didn't get the Smash invite

Anyways Sonic's moveset as is is pretty lackluster, it'd be nice to get a stage that isn't a Green Hills type and also more remixes outside of literally just Angel Island Zone, and I do think the likes of Tails, Eggman, etc ought to be playable now that Smash has been including characters like Ken and Sephiroth, but I guess Sonic's representation isn't so bad considering.
 
I am a bit surprised that other third parties got echoes before someone, probably shadow, got one of sonic.

It's also the only third party franchise to have 2 stages in base ultimate, although Final fantasy got there eventually with a second when sephiroth was added, so it kind of does have a little bit of special treatment.
 
Sonic should be banned from Smash until RGG Studio publicly apologizes for their comments on the Switch and Nintendo, puts every existing game in its catalog on the Switch, and commits to making the next three flagship releases Switch exclusive.
 
At least Dr. Eggman just to have more villains.

Tails and Knuckles would be coolio too but not essential.

More than fighters, the Sonic IP could use better stages. They always felt the plainest compared to the other third party characters.
 
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Shadow should have been a echo fighter, beyond that Sonic is very well represented in Smash.
 
Hero of Hyrule said:
Sonic should be banned from Smash until RGG Studio publicly apologizes for their comments on the Switch and Nintendo, puts every existing game in its catalog on the Switch, and commits to making the next three flagship releases Switch exclusive.
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Somehow, I feel like this would be @Yamanoi's exact sentiment as well.

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I would love to have more Sonic representation in Smash, and it’s definitely arguable that he “deserves” it considering the IP’s industry impact and iconic status.

That said, whiny tweets like that are getting “pissed off” and call it “inexcusable” are annoying. Smash is basically a dream crossover, we should be happy it exists at all tbh.
 
I'd rather have more SEGA reps than more sonic specifically. Kiryu, Sakura Shinguji, Vyse... Maybe assist trophies for NiGHTS or outrun.

That said, if they were to add another sonic character, everyone points to shadow, but I'd rather see my man big the cat with a sick battle arrangement of lazy days
 
The solution is clearly that SEGA should make its own crossover platform fighter, so Sonic can get all the representation fans want
 
Ken defined an entire archetype of clones to the point where the term 'Shotoclone' is pretty big fighting game lingo. Whatever your opinion on Shadow, it's not really something that he invented.

It's not like Shadow was a particularly new character either, he was a pretty straightforward implementation of the 'cool loner, but more morally ambiguous' version of the main character that was really popular around that time.
 
neil said:
Please elaborate.

I'd argue that for anyone not part of the Sonic fanbase, which is >99% of people, Shadow barely means anything. And he appeared much later than Ken.
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I'd argue the opposite. Shadow is next to only Wario, a lot of people don't know what Street Fighter is beyond the name. And unlike Luigi and Wario, Shadows abilities are more similar to Sonic to this day. That's why you can play as him in any Forces level.
 
I think the Sonic franchise is represented just about as much as it should be. The online Sonic fandom is, for the most part, a giant echo chamber that thinks Sonic is way better/more important to video games than it is. I’m not trying to dunk on Sonic fans (love you chocolate_supra) because honestly the ones I’ve interacted with have been nothing short of pleasant and delightful, but I can see from a distance that the majority of the online fandom sure does think Sonic and Mario are equals in terms of popularity and quality, which… I’ll disagree.

I mean just look at the wording in the tweet in the OP. Yeah, there are a lot of Fire Emblem characters. Probably too many. But using phrasing like “it pisses me off” and “it’s borderline inexcusable” is the perfect encapsulation of what I’m talking about. They‘re clearly angry that Sonic isn’t represented more because to them, it’s on-par with a Mario or something, and that it not being more prominent than Fire Emblem is insulting. Just for some perspective: Sonic Frontiers sold 3.5 million copies across Switch, Playstation, Xbox and PC. Fire Emblem Three Houses sold 4.2 million on Switch alone.

Again: It’s represented as much as it should be. One character, two assist trophies and two stages. That’s not bad at all, IMO. It’s more than Pac-Man got, it’s more than Mega Man got. It’s right about where it should be.
 
Brock Reiher said:
I'd argue the opposite. Shadow is next to only Wario, a lot of people don't know what Street Fighter is beyond the name. And unlike Luigi and Wario, Shadows abilities are more similar to Sonic to this day. That's why you can play as him in any Forces level.
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I guess this is all anecdotal and subjective on both sides. But I still say Shadow is super niche. I've never played as Shadow in any game. I mainly remember him for the moment they introduced guns into Sonic, in what seemed like a desperate move for the series.
 
He's the only third party character that feels like they belong in the roster.

He's also the only one I'd be sad to see cut.

So, I suppose I do think he deserves special treatment based on the above, and I would probably be more excited to see Knuckles, Tails, or Shadow than almost every other third party character, even though I'd prefer they tone it down on all third parties.

I don't even like Sonic games.
 
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neil said:
I guess this is all anecdotal and subjective on both sides. But I still say Shadow is super niche. I've never played as Shadow in any game. I mainly remember him for the moment they introduced guns into Sonic, in what seemed like a desperate move for the series.
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Shadow is the second most popular character in Sonic and Sonic has two (soon to be three) hollywood movies.
 
Brock Reiher said:
You'd think so, but the people have good taste.
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Honestly I don’t hate the idea of Shadow but only because I find it hilarious he exists. It’s like if they made a Dark Pac-Man who spat the power pellets out instead of eating them and had a cool tattoo and swore. It’s like if they made Dark Cookie Monster who HATED cookies. It’s very funny imo
 
Derachi said:
I think the Sonic franchise is represented just about as much as it should be. The online Sonic fandom is, for the most part, a giant echo chamber that thinks Sonic is way better/more important to video games than it is. I’m not trying to dunk on Sonic fans (love you chocolate_supra) because honestly the ones I’ve interacted with have been nothing short of pleasant and delightful, but I can see from a distance that the majority of the online fandom sure does think Sonic and Mario are equals in terms of popularity and quality, which… I’ll disagree.

I mean just look at the wording in the tweet in the OP. Yeah, there are a lot of Fire Emblem characters. Probably too many. But using phrasing like “it pisses me off” and “it’s borderline inexcusable” is the perfect encapsulation of what I’m talking about. They‘re clearly angry that Sonic isn’t represented more because to them, it’s on-par with a Mario or something, and that it not being more prominent than Fire Emblem is insulting. Just for some perspective: Sonic Frontiers sold 3.5 million copies across Switch, Playstation, Xbox and PC. Fire Emblem Three Houses sold 4.2 million on Switch alone.

Again: It’s represented as much as it should be. One character, two assist trophies and two stages. That’s not bad at all, IMO. It’s more than Pac-Man got, it’s more than Mega Man got. It’s right about where it should be.
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I'm not so sure about this. I mostly don't care for Sonic games even if I loved the original 3 and Mania, and I too think the franchise is underrepresented. Its latest games haven't sold much but I doubt you could make a blockbuster Mega Man or Pac-Man movie, let alone 2. He has a higher place, IMO, in gaming history than other franchises that are more represented -non-Nintendo, I mean-. There are more FF VII characters than Sonic characters, for instance. It's weird that we get Ken as an echo for Ryu and not Shadow as Sonic's Echo, for instance. Even the DQ Hero has different heroes.

Another thing I believe is that SEGA is underrepresented in Smash. Square, Bandai-Namco, Capcom have more characters than they do.
 
I think it's about as well represented as any somewhat popular third party. Not to say I wouldn't like to see another character like Robotnik or Tails but I'd also like another Mega Man character, like Zero or Roll, so there's that.

Though I do agree that it's weird that both FF7 and Street Fighter have more characters than Sonic in Smash.
Ozeiyo said:
Even the DQ Hero has different heroes.
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Tbf, Dragon Quest is super big in Japan and they tried to represent the whole franchise as best as possible with a single fighter :D
 
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Derachi said:
Honestly I don’t hate the idea of Shadow but only because I find it hilarious he exists. It’s like if they made a Dark Pac-Man who spat the power pellets out instead of eating them and had a cool tattoo and swore. It’s like if they made Dark Cookie Monster who HATED cookies. It’s very funny imo
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Yup. He's popular for a reason, and it's not just because Goku and Vegeta are everyone's favorite DBZ characters.
 
Is this really that widespread of an opinion? I would ignore anyone who thinks Sonic deserves more representation than the other third party franchises. Sonic's friends (mostly) suck; I don't want any more of them clogging up this roster.
 
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Ozeiyo said:
I'm not so sure about this. I mostly don't care for Sonic games even if I loved the original 3 and Mania, and I too think the franchise is underrepresented. Its latest games haven't sold much but I doubt you could make a blockbuster Mega Man or Pac-Man movie, let alone 2. He has a higher place, IMO, in gaming history than other franchises that are more represented -non-Nintendo, I mean-. There are more FF VII characters than Sonic characters, for instance. It's weird that we get Ken as an echo for Ryu and not Shadow as Sonic's Echo, for instance. Even the DQ Hero has different heroes.

Another thing I believe is that SEGA is underrepresented in Smash. Square, Bandai-Namco, Capcom have more characters than they do.
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I think Street Fighter being a Fighting Game is probably the primary reason it got an echo fighter. FFVII probably got another character because FFVII Remake was still hot and fresh and FFVII is the pseudo Playstation rep. Dragon Quest is one of the biggest media franchises in Japan.

If anything I could have seen them do Eggman as a new fighter. I don’t think I would have been opposed to it either, despite my ambivalence to the Sonic franchise. Smash Ultimate leaned into “Heroes and Villains” as a theme, adding a lot of adversarial characters for existing fighters, i.e. Ridley for Samus, King K Rool for Donkey Kong, Sephiroth for Cloud, etc. I think Eggman would have fit the bill perfectly.
 
I really want more Sonic rep, but the characters I really want were already made into ATs. Tails and Eggman just don’t interest me nearly as much. I like Tails, i’ve just never had an extreme desire for him to join Smash, unlike Knuckles or Shadow.
 
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Derachi said:
I think the Sonic franchise is represented just about as much as it should be. The online Sonic fandom is, for the most part, a giant echo chamber that thinks Sonic is way better/more important to video games than it is. I’m not trying to dunk on Sonic fans (love you chocolate_supra) because honestly the ones I’ve interacted with have been nothing short of pleasant and delightful, but I can see from a distance that the majority of the online fandom sure does think Sonic and Mario are equals in terms of popularity and quality, which… I’ll disagree.

I mean just look at the wording in the tweet in the OP. Yeah, there are a lot of Fire Emblem characters. Probably too many. But using phrasing like “it pisses me off” and “it’s borderline inexcusable” is the perfect encapsulation of what I’m talking about. They‘re clearly angry that Sonic isn’t represented more because to them, it’s on-par with a Mario or something, and that it not being more prominent than Fire Emblem is insulting. Just for some perspective: Sonic Frontiers sold 3.5 million copies across Switch, Playstation, Xbox and PC. Fire Emblem Three Houses sold 4.2 million on Switch alone.

Again: It’s represented as much as it should be. One character, two assist trophies and two stages. That’s not bad at all, IMO. It’s more than Pac-Man got, it’s more than Mega Man got. It’s right about where it should be.
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Casual audiences know Sonic more than they know street fighter.
 
Not really, no. I think, for a third party franchise, the series is pretty well represented.

I would've liked to see Shadow as an Echo and Robotnik/Eggman as a boss battle in Ultimate, but Echo fighters and bosses were underutilised anyway. They could've been a mean of casting an even wider net in terms of character appearances in Ultimate, but there we are. It would've also been a fun way of playing on the rivals theme they were using at one point ahead of release.

cries because we didn't get Black Shadow as a Captain Falcon echo
 
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Even as a Sonic fan, I felt that getting one rep was fine. He's a guest, and guests are lucky if they get another from their series to join them.

That's not to say I'd say "no" if Metal Sonic or Eggman got added. But honestly, the main thing I want is for Sonic's moveset to get a rework. He, like a lot of the other Melee/Brawl-era movesets, really show their age. Especially when you compare them to 4/Ultimate/DLC movesets.
 
neil said:
I guess this is all anecdotal and subjective on both sides. But I still say Shadow is super niche. I've never played as Shadow in any game. I mainly remember him for the moment they introduced guns into Sonic, in what seemed like a desperate move for the series.
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Any Sonic popularity poll you find has him usually behind only Sonic for most popular character. Shadow has had a major role in Sonic games for over 20 years now, and is prominently featured in the marketing for any game he appears in. He's one of the only Sonic characters to star in his own title (Tails being the other on the GG) which sold over 2 million copies btw. We already know from the second films ending teaser he'll feature prominently in the 3rd live action film.

There are absolutely characters in Smash that are less well known by the general population them Shadow. Your personal anecdotes are pointless as Shadow has been playable in dozens of Sonic game, if you've somehow managed to not play any of them that's on you.

Derachi said:
Citation needed
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https://www.boxofficemojo.com/release/rl1551009281/ 100 million box office for Street Fighter

https://www.boxofficemojo.com/release/rl4244997633/ 300 million box office for Sonic 1

https://www.boxofficemojo.com/release/rl1363641089/ 400 million box office for Sonic 2

Checkmate atheist

Ultimately I'd guess more people know who Sonic is by name then Ryu by name due to Sonic having much larger and more successful cross media appeal then Street Fighter where most of it's success has come from the games only.
 
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Well, The trouble with Sonic is, he’s just not “cool” anymore, and “edgy” never was. I say that as a fan of the games. There’s a reason why Team Sonic Racing was viewed as a major comedown after Sonic&ASRT. The Sonicverse is full of characters that nobody really cares for, with the exception of half a dozen on a good day, and the Sega All-Stars carried that series, with more interesting prospects.

BTW, Smash is first and foremost a Nintendo IP - Fans of third party characters in those games have no business whatsoever complaining that their faves didn’t make it over actual Nintendo characters, and their entitlement is unreal. If hardcore Sonic fans want that so badly, they could always ask Sega to create their own version of Smash and indulge themselves - Go all out, and put the casts of Bayonetta, Shinobi, NiGHTS, Golden Axe, and Streets Of Rage in there. Hell, I might even be there on Day One, if that were to happen.
 
Linkstrikesback said:
No. Shadow has pretty consistently been the most popular non sonic, sonic character since his inception.
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Much to the chagrin of Famiboards user chocolate_supra

Derachi said:
I always like Krillin best anyway tbh
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No joke, I think Krillin and Gohan are much better characters than Vegeta and especially Goku. I'm bugged that Toriyama's editor apparently forced him to bring Goku back and reverse him passing the torch to Gohan. Ever since the Namek saga Goku has been the least compelling of the whole cast, but he's somehow the most popular. 😩
 
No, Sonic needs a good game first before he's earned a second slot.

Edit: I was joking, but I don't like adding /s so ...
 
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BassForever said:
https://www.boxofficemojo.com/release/rl1551009281/ 100 million box office for Street Fighter

https://www.boxofficemojo.com/release/rl4244997633/ 300 million box office for Sonic 1

https://www.boxofficemojo.com/release/rl1363641089/ 400 million box office for Sonic 2

Checkmate atheist

Ultimately I'd guess more people know who Sonic is by name then Ryu by name due to Sonic having much larger and more successful cross media appeal then Street Fighter where most of it's success has come from the games only.
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I mean I think you’re probably right that Sonic is more well-known than Ryu (though I don’t think box office numbers from 2 movies 25 years apart is a great indicator of that) but I do think you should throw a “I think” or “I believe” when making a statement like Ab did with “casual audiences know Sonic more than they know street fighter” unless you can back it up with data
 
Angel Whispers said:
Well, The trouble with Sonic is, he’s just not “cool” anymore, and “edgy” never was. I say that as a fan of the games. There’s a reason why Team Sonic Racing was viewed as a major comedown after Sonic&ASRT. The Sonicverse is full of characters that nobody really cares for, with the exception of half a dozen on a good day, and the Sega All-Stars carried that series, with more interesting prospects.
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First of all, Team Sonic Racing being worse then Sonic&ASRT had nothing to do with the fact it was focused only on Sonic characters. The games mechanics would have been flawed regardless of if it was Sonic only or Sonic and Sega friends.

Secondly, while we never got official sales numbers for TSR, we know Sonic&ASRT only sold about 1.3 million from Sega, and TSR was cited as one of the games that sold well by Sega in 2021. So even if SASRT sold better, it didn't sell substantially better enough for your argument to hold any merit.


www.gamereactor.eu

Sonic the Hedgehog still shifted 4.4 million units in the last fiscal year despite a lack of new releases

Surprisingly, 2011's Generations continues to generate strong sales.
www.gamereactor.eu www.gamereactor.eu

Third we literally just had two Sonic films do very well at the box office as I posted above.

Sonic may not be Mario big, but he's still an incredibly popular and successful ip. Some of those posts in this thread are going too far the opposite direction trying to course correct.

Derachi said:
I mean I think you’re probably right that Sonic is more well-known than Ryu (though I don’t think box office numbers from 2 movies 25 years apart is a great indicator of that) but I do think you should throw a “I think” or “I believe” when making a statement like Ab did with “casual audiences know Sonic more than they know street fighter” unless you can back it up with data
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The fact the SF movie also sucks hard and the Sonic movies were well received also likely play into why the Sonic films did better. I could have use "legend of chun li" as a more recent film, but that was such a giga bomb it isn't even worth discussing. I also wasn't trying to die on a hill using the films as hard proof. Pragmatically you can just point to the fact Sonic has sold 1.5 billion units of software compared to Street Fighters 53 million as proof Sonic is more popular/successful of an ip. Yes Sonic has had way more games, but those games had to successful enough for Sega to keep making them. As I posted above even the poorly reviewed Shadow game sold over 2 million copies, the ip is just very popular and successful.
 
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The only other character that really deserves to be in smash is knuckles

Also I think that the sonic franchise is the most rosiest tinted glasses franchise in the whole industry.

Sonic himself is cool but let’s not talk crazy here, it’s as represented as it needs to be.
 
Going to go ahead and get in front of any “are Sonic games good or bad” arguments and say: Stay on topic. This thread is about whether or not Sonic should have gotten more representation in Smash Bros.
 
I really want Eggman/Dr. Robotnik in a Smash game; so I guess I'll agree the series should get special treatment if that's what it's going to take to make it happen.

He's like the Bowser/King Koopa of the Sonic games, for those of you unfamiliar with the niche Sonic the Hedgehog series.
 
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