Besides, isn't it very possible they're running some of the physics on the gpu for Tears?
I remember Nvidia was talking about a custom physic engine in the blog post when Switch launched.
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Reviews Digital Foundry || The Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom - DF Tech Review - Is It Really 'Too Big for Switch'...?
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I remember Nvidia was talking about a custom physic engine in the blog post when Switch launched.
Armoured_Bear
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My gaming started with a ZX Spectrum and NES and I want my 60FPS
For how long have you held that opinion/stance? Since the days of the Wii? Because if so, that's been a long ass time to adjust one's expectations accordingly.
Armoured_Bear
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I don't understand this post.
Armoured_Bear
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In the adult world, things aren't binary; not completely shit or utterly perfect.
ToTK is highly reviewed because it's an amazing game with (like BOTW) a lovely art stye and although it runs well, it doesn't run at a constant 30fps.
It is held back by the hardware with the lack of AA, shimmering, low resolution rendering and a non solid 30fps.
It would (will) look and run better on more modern hardware, that's it.
No idea why that's triggering for people, I may be wrong but I imagine the people who are, don't own other consoles.
Ghostsonplanets
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They probably offload some of the physics stuff to the Cuda cores. Yes for the latter :
Also, for your question about A57 x Espresso. From Sebbi back in B3D Switch Speculation thread:
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Aleh
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It’s only gonna get better. Genshin Impact already runs on tiny ~300$ phones (thinking about the 2nd Gen iPhone SE right now), while looking better and hitting 60 fps. The next Switch is gonna be crazy.
boodream
Paratroopa
You’re absolutely right, things aren’t binary. Being thrilled at the idea of being able to play in a future probably relatively close to the two Zelda games of the switch at 60 fps is something that makes everyone agree. It has nothing to do with the specific argument that you develop about the fact that these games would be ruined by the hardware
Nintendo literally develops its hardware and games simultaneously and jointly. So it’s not that your stance bothers or shocks, it’s just that it appears more or less correct considering the strategy integrated at the heart of everything that makes Nintendo DNA. A game developed literally with hardware in mind does not want to be retained by it. As others have said better than me, what would have been a serious problem is an unstable framerate.
For the rest, and to finish on a nuanced and not Manichean note, wanting 60 fps is absolutely not the same thing as declaring that 30 fps is a handicap. Anyone who has played the game knows that it is fluid.
Armoured_Bear
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Please show where I wrote that BOTW and TOTP "would be ruined by the hardware" and declared that "30fps is a handicap".
Mr.Fletcher
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It can be beautiful, with solid performance - but it can also be really noisy, with noticeable drops.
It’s certainly playable and while there are times where I’ve found myself wishing for better hardware, there’s been more than a few picturesque horizons to enjoy too.
It does feel a little old, but oddly enough, that’s not thanks to the likes of Horizon or Elden Ring.
It’s Genshin Impact for me. Due to needing to run on mobile phones and tablets it opts for a simple, but gorgeous style. It packs a lot of personality too.
Some of the vistas and environments in that game are truly jaw-dropping and it’s all down to smart art, rather than technical prowess.
It’s certainly playable and while there are times where I’ve found myself wishing for better hardware, there’s been more than a few picturesque horizons to enjoy too.
It does feel a little old, but oddly enough, that’s not thanks to the likes of Horizon or Elden Ring.
It’s Genshin Impact for me. Due to needing to run on mobile phones and tablets it opts for a simple, but gorgeous style. It packs a lot of personality too.
Some of the vistas and environments in that game are truly jaw-dropping and it’s all down to smart art, rather than technical prowess.
boodream
Paratroopa
Maybe i don't understand correctly your use or the words 'held back'.
As I said, when we know that Nintendo develops its games based on its hardware, this notion does not necessarily seem to be the most relevant. Held back from what? From an imaginary ecosystem developed by other people? All the artistic directions of Zelda games for years are an excellent example and are part of the identity of these games. So I’m not sure what’s being held back.
Talking about technical limitation in the absolute is something that no one will dispute about the switch. To say that the games are held back involves imagining an ecosystem that doesn’t exist, so on a very personal level I have a hard time understanding what that means.
As I said, when we know that Nintendo develops its games based on its hardware, this notion does not necessarily seem to be the most relevant. Held back from what? From an imaginary ecosystem developed by other people? All the artistic directions of Zelda games for years are an excellent example and are part of the identity of these games. So I’m not sure what’s being held back.
Talking about technical limitation in the absolute is something that no one will dispute about the switch. To say that the games are held back involves imagining an ecosystem that doesn’t exist, so on a very personal level I have a hard time understanding what that means.
MSnap
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Genshin doesn’t have anything close to the same kind of environmental interaction and physics systems that BotW/TotK has though.
Mr.Fletcher
Bob-omb
Definitely, but I still think the imagination and creativity in the environmental art is out of this world.
It does have a more crude elemental system that gets the job done too.
It’s very difficult to compare the games because of what they’re doing and the business models they‘re working within.
But still, my point was that ToTK doesn’t feel old to me when placed next to these realistic triple-A releases, more something like GI, that doesn’t rely on cutting edge tech.
Zelda is doing a lot more in some ways, granted. But yeah, from a visual perspective, I think GI does a great job of looking awesome on limited specs.
BotW on WiiU is sorcery as well, indeed. The greatest farewell song for our ambulance! Remembered now of Xenoblade 1 on a GameCube v2 with 88MB RAM
MadMarvainy
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I am really confused by what's being discussed lol. I'll chime in though... I want 1080/1440p 60fps Nintendo games as much as anybody (I know were already have some and they do a decent amount of games at 60fps already) and I own a Switch, high-end PC, PS5, and Xbox SS.
In game development, devs aim for a target when it comes to stability, responsiveness, resolution, and performance relative to the platform or platforms they are developing on and the ambition/scope/scale of their project (think of every bullshot or downgrade you've ever seen of a game in promo material that wasn't just to lie-- sometimes devs overestimate shit like this which is totally fine. There are always internal reasons for certain downgrades).
For example, I highly doubt Respawn hit all those targets for their PC port of Jedi Survivor which is struggling to run smoothly on the highest-end GPU available on the market. Nintendo and the Zelda team though? When it comes to dealing with the hand they were dealt, they royally flushed the fuck out of the rest of the card table. The game was made for the Switch and is stellar on Switch which is why it is so well-received as a game on the platform.
I remember when TLoU Remastered came out on PS4, I never thought for one second that the PS3 held the game back and I was already playing things at 120fps on PC at the time. I was just glad to see how powerful the PS4 was and how it could make an already good game run much better and look great. I would love that for ToTK eventually.
The question for me is, "did Nintendo leave anything on the table as far as optimization and performance goes?" And my answer to this is a resounding, "no." I do not think there is another developer on the planet that could make this game on the Switch and also have it running better than the game we got. This is how many people/journalists like DF decided to come to their conclusion and factor in the scale and complexity of the world, real-time physics, draw distance, minimal use of loading screens, level of interactivity between systems, and emergent systems in place when critiquing the game.
In game development, devs aim for a target when it comes to stability, responsiveness, resolution, and performance relative to the platform or platforms they are developing on and the ambition/scope/scale of their project (think of every bullshot or downgrade you've ever seen of a game in promo material that wasn't just to lie-- sometimes devs overestimate shit like this which is totally fine. There are always internal reasons for certain downgrades).
For example, I highly doubt Respawn hit all those targets for their PC port of Jedi Survivor which is struggling to run smoothly on the highest-end GPU available on the market. Nintendo and the Zelda team though? When it comes to dealing with the hand they were dealt, they royally flushed the fuck out of the rest of the card table. The game was made for the Switch and is stellar on Switch which is why it is so well-received as a game on the platform.
I remember when TLoU Remastered came out on PS4, I never thought for one second that the PS3 held the game back and I was already playing things at 120fps on PC at the time. I was just glad to see how powerful the PS4 was and how it could make an already good game run much better and look great. I would love that for ToTK eventually.
The question for me is, "did Nintendo leave anything on the table as far as optimization and performance goes?" And my answer to this is a resounding, "no." I do not think there is another developer on the planet that could make this game on the Switch and also have it running better than the game we got. This is how many people/journalists like DF decided to come to their conclusion and factor in the scale and complexity of the world, real-time physics, draw distance, minimal use of loading screens, level of interactivity between systems, and emergent systems in place when critiquing the game.
curl-6
Chain Chomp
Yeah I played BOTW on Wii U, and seeing some of the stuff it pulled off on three overclocked Gamecube cores, a GPU only slightly better than PS3/360, and 1GB of RAM was just insane.BotW on WiiU is sorcery as well, indeed. The greatest farewell song for our ambulance! Remembered now of Xenoblade 1 on a GameCube v2 with 88MB RAM
Along with Xenoblade Chronicles X and FAST Racing Neo, one of the most impressive showcases of what the hardware was capable of when pushed hard.
JorgenRaft
Chain Chomp
It runs really great (for Switch).
The tutorial area was where it chugged the most for me so I was glad it only got mostly better from there.
That said, I am 300% ready to play this on their next console.
The tutorial area was where it chugged the most for me so I was glad it only got mostly better from there.
That said, I am 300% ready to play this on their next console.
Dekuman
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This is where I am at. Totk has Nintendo tier polish, no denying it. But I want to play this with better fps and visuals.
the shadows don't even have the filtering to make them soften most of the timeThey call the shadows low res, I can them realistic if we assume that the Hyrule ground is rarely even.
Spyder
Shriekbat
In the adult world, no one cares that a game runs at 30fps with some dips
Armoured_Bear
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I think you know that that is nonsense.
Th dips are just one aspect anyway.
Why do we have all the advancements in graphics in the last couple of decades when “no one cares”?
Why does Digital foundry exist when “no one cares”?
Why is the 60fps of ‘Mario Kart” lauded when “no one” cares?
Why do people buy expensive gaming PCs when “no one” cares?
Why do people buy a Series X over a Series S when “no one cares”?
Why do people go to all the effort of emulating Switch games on PC when “no one cares”?
Why are people overclocking Switches to get a stable 30fps when “no one cares”?
The people who pretend not to care will suddenly care when Switch 2 arrives and higher res textures, resolution, better image quality and higher/more stable frame rates arrive on their beloved platform.
Cringeworthy fanboyism should be left behind when you leave your teenage years.
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performance review with Modern Vintage Gamer
PandaAndino
Tektite
Dont want to be rude, but they really need a mariko or oled moded switch to test real diferenses. Actually the last Dynamic fps cheat can make erista switchies to play the game at 50-60 fps without slowdowns.
Linkstrikesback
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As should cringeworthy tech worship, as if the incredibly minor differences in frame rate or resolution mean anything, yet here we are.
Armoured_Bear
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4K is 9 times as many pixels as 720p, if you think that is "incredibly minor" then I can only suggest that you visit an optician pretty soon.
If you don't appreciate a solid 60fps (never mind 120fps) for example in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe and Metroid Prime Remastered and how great games like that feel then I don't know what to say to you.
It is possible to love Nintendo games and consoles and enjoy high quality visuals and gaming experiences, you don't have to choose a team or something.
boodream
Paratroopa
It's possible to think 4K/60 fps would be great and to find that running a game as ambitious as Totk smoothly at 30 fps on a $300 hybrid console based on a 2015 chip with a good battery life is in itself a great tech achievement.
Not needing 4K/60 FPS doesn't mean being against 4K/60 FPS, which would be absurd.
It just means understanding that the Switch has to think about both its battery life and a reasonable cost. The constraints and uses are incomparable with a PC that costs more than the Switch and is not concerned with battery life. Not seeing it as a problem at all as long as the performance is stable and the game enjoyable is not necessarily being a fanboy.
Not needing 4K/60 FPS doesn't mean being against 4K/60 FPS, which would be absurd.
It just means understanding that the Switch has to think about both its battery life and a reasonable cost. The constraints and uses are incomparable with a PC that costs more than the Switch and is not concerned with battery life. Not seeing it as a problem at all as long as the performance is stable and the game enjoyable is not necessarily being a fanboy.
Armoured_Bear
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Firstly, no-one needs anything , it's only video games.
No-one here is trying to dispute that Totk is a great tech achievement, no-one.
The point is that, no matter how great an achievement it is, it's still limited by old hardware, most people here aren't bothered, some are used to modern tech and look forward to playing Nintendo games with higher fidelity.
What do constraints and PCs have to do with anything?
The fanboyism is the really strange defensiveness wrt. anything technical, see the repeated references along the lines of "framerate cronies" and "framerate worship". I can pretty much guarantee the people who post along those lines would have been very vocal about the PS2 shortcomings in the GC era and whose "needs" will magically change the minute Switch 2 arrives.
It's all silly, objectively games are better when they run at a high stable framerate and at a higher resolution with better image quality.
No-one really enjoys shimmering, blurriness and aliasing, do they.
I find it astonishing that Nintendo fans can seriously claim that framerate doesn't matter after playing the likes of Super Mario Galaxy and Super Mario Odyssey among many other games that benefit from 60fps.
boodream
Paratroopa
What I'm trying to say is simply that it's possible to welcome better performance in the future and not being upset by the Switch's current performance. Wanting better is not being a tech obsessive, and not being upset about it is not being a fanboy.
Taking into account the selling price and battery life seems to me to be an absolute must when talking about the Switch, because all these nice emulated experiences don't take into account either one, and a hardware that does better than the Switch is both more expensive and less energy efficient.
Taking into account the selling price and battery life seems to me to be an absolute must when talking about the Switch, because all these nice emulated experiences don't take into account either one, and a hardware that does better than the Switch is both more expensive and less energy efficient.
Spyder
Shriekbat
My brother bear in Christ your are literally on a Nintendo fanboy forum
ShadowFox08
Paratroopa
Here's excerpt from the article version:
There are reports online of Mariko-based memory overclocks to around 2.8GHz that, when combined with an unlocked frame-rate patch, could allow for 60fps gameplay on Switch - incredible stuff, although we should take these claims with a gigantic sack of salt. Even so, the notion that more performance (much more!) could be extracted from the underutilised 16nm Switch SoC variant is something we might take a look at in future.
Did someone really upclock the lpddr4x memory to 2.8GHz? Is there even possible? That's a 75% increase over the regular speed on lpddr4.
The Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom's portable performance tested
It's time to complete our Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom performance analysis with overclocking, pre-patch frame-rates and how different Switch models fare.
www.eurogamer.net
Armoured_Bear
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You can be a fan without being a fanboy.
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This thread is getting pretty hostile, no?
The performance of this game doesn’t ruin it, but it is poor at times, and the difference between dynamic 720p-900p / unstable 30fps and 4K /stable 30fps or even 60fps is not ‘minor’ for a lot of people.
When you’re enjoying a film, you don’t question the stability of its frame rate. It just is. Please don’t derail this with talk of 24fps as it’s not really relevant to the point.. But if in the film watching experience during really exciting scenes the framerate started to bounce around you can bet that viewers would comment that it looks strange, even if they aren’t certain why.
With content in 4K, there are details visible at larger screen sizes that literally blend together at 720p. The details in the armors, weapons, monsters, buildings and stalls in villages, everything at a distance, etc. are not infrequently lost as the resolution bounces around. When a great deal of enjoyment comes from noticing and appreciating those small details, it’s a bit of a bummer.
I wish people would stop acting like resolution and frame rate don’t improve experiences. This isn’t an argument for photo-realism or cutting edge technology necessarily. It’s asking for clean, stable, consistent image quality. There are times when Tears looks really quite stunning, and there are others, like gliding through Kakariko, or entering one of the first dungeons I visited, where it’s punishing to be aware of how much detail I’m missing.
The performance of this game doesn’t ruin it, but it is poor at times, and the difference between dynamic 720p-900p / unstable 30fps and 4K /stable 30fps or even 60fps is not ‘minor’ for a lot of people.
When you’re enjoying a film, you don’t question the stability of its frame rate. It just is. Please don’t derail this with talk of 24fps as it’s not really relevant to the point.. But if in the film watching experience during really exciting scenes the framerate started to bounce around you can bet that viewers would comment that it looks strange, even if they aren’t certain why.
With content in 4K, there are details visible at larger screen sizes that literally blend together at 720p. The details in the armors, weapons, monsters, buildings and stalls in villages, everything at a distance, etc. are not infrequently lost as the resolution bounces around. When a great deal of enjoyment comes from noticing and appreciating those small details, it’s a bit of a bummer.
I wish people would stop acting like resolution and frame rate don’t improve experiences. This isn’t an argument for photo-realism or cutting edge technology necessarily. It’s asking for clean, stable, consistent image quality. There are times when Tears looks really quite stunning, and there are others, like gliding through Kakariko, or entering one of the first dungeons I visited, where it’s punishing to be aware of how much detail I’m missing.
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Armoured_Bear
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And if anyone wants to see what modern tech can do for "cartoony" non realistic games, just look at Ratchet and Clank on PS5.
I cannot wait to see Nintendo's amazing artists output on Switch 2.
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Ratchet is a stunning game. I don’t even think Nintendo needs to go that far - I’m genuinely only asking for the existing game to be displayed at my TV’s native resolution. It’d super neat for them to take a major leap past that but it’s hardly where I’m coming from with my specific gripes.
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You can appreciate good graphics and framerate and resolution while at the same time realizing that those things are not deal breakers for the vast majority of audiences. From the perspective of Nintendo there is really very very little to gain by hyper focusing on that and as a result the idea that they or their games are being "held back" doesn't exactly hold water.
You can lament not personally being able to experience it the exact way you want to, sure.
You can lament not personally being able to experience it the exact way you want to, sure.
lattjeful
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I'm of two minds with TotK's image quality/performance:
-It's fine. It looks good enough, framerate is stable enough. The framerate drops and some visual inconsistencies are noticeable at times, but not enough to distract or detract from the experience.
-I want to see the game with better image quality and graphics. 60 FPS is (personally) take it or leaeve it. I'd rather the extra rendering budget go towards prettying up the game here, since it's an open world game with a beautiful art style and I want to see them take it further. A completely stable 30 would be enough for me, since the game is responsive enough for me, but I know others would love 60 FPS.
I'd kill for a next gen patch on Drake/T239/REDACTED/Whatever (let's be real, rendering the game at 4k via an emulator/modded Switch VS the devs updating the assets for 4k are totally different and I would vastly prefer the latter) just for curiosity's sake, but I'm fine with the game as is.
-It's fine. It looks good enough, framerate is stable enough. The framerate drops and some visual inconsistencies are noticeable at times, but not enough to distract or detract from the experience.
-I want to see the game with better image quality and graphics. 60 FPS is (personally) take it or leaeve it. I'd rather the extra rendering budget go towards prettying up the game here, since it's an open world game with a beautiful art style and I want to see them take it further. A completely stable 30 would be enough for me, since the game is responsive enough for me, but I know others would love 60 FPS.
I'd kill for a next gen patch on Drake/T239/REDACTED/Whatever (let's be real, rendering the game at 4k via an emulator/modded Switch VS the devs updating the assets for 4k are totally different and I would vastly prefer the latter) just for curiosity's sake, but I'm fine with the game as is.
Armoured_Bear
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I'd love you to show the post where I claimed that the game isn't enjoyable.
Also, you're the person that claimed that noone cares about framerate, in the REDACTED thread there are 57000 posts and 4 million views.
What do think all those people are interested in?
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Fwiw I couldn't care less about graphics/framerate, and I've probably posted a thousand or two times in that thread.
Edit: just checked, 1,970 posts in that thread!
I enjoy speculating about that side of the industry quite a lot.
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Armoured_Bear
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Fair enough, I would suspect that the majority of people are interested in the graphics of future games on the platform though.
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At the same time, it feels irrefutable to say that a non-trivial portion of the audience is thirsty for something better. You’re pennies to the overall view count.
Tentacle-tropes
Kremling
I mean what are we defining as non-trivial amount?
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Sure, the same Nintendo who introduced me to what a big deal high frames rates are with a 60fps N64 game 25 years ago.
Armoured_Bear
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We need a poll of all FNHTSD posters.
Are you, as a Nintendo fan, interested in technical talk on Nintendo's next console because of
a) interest in the possibilities that the new tech brings to future games or
b) general interest in the industry (although any technical improvement is not "needed" and we'd have been as well staying with the N64 because resolution , frame rates, high res textures etc. don't matter).
I don't imagine b) will be the majority but who knows
Yamanoi
I paid $70 for this tag
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Well now Nintendo says 30fps with dips is good and the game sold 10 million+ in 3 days so we don't need 60fps again. That's how it works.
