• Hey everyone, staff have documented a list of banned content and subject matter that we feel are not consistent with site values, and don't make sense to host discussion of on Famiboards. This list (and the relevant reasoning per item) is viewable here.
  • Do you have audio editing experience and want to help out with the Famiboards Discussion Club Podcast? If so, we're looking for help and would love to have you on the team! Just let us know in the Podcast Thread if you are interested!

Discussion "A struggling Nintendo is a creative Nintendo"- Do you agree with this statement?

Lugia667

Lugia667

Gerudo
Pronouns
He/Him
Somehow this...."interesting" video popped into my feed about why this guy thinks the Wii U era is better



his last point is that Nintendo does better when it struggles but....is this really true? The idea that Nintendo needs to be in trouble to make good games seems pretty weird to me
 
Switch has shown us the opposite. They are now more successful than ever and they are also releasing more games than ever, even the more creative and niche like pikmin, game builder garage or labo.
 
I think they played it a bit safe for the most part this generation outside of obvious standouts (like BotW, Ring Fit, Labo), but I think they kind of needed to gain some trust back after Wii U.

That said, playing safe =/= bad. I think most of the bigger guys these days "play it safe" and stick to their strengths for the most part whereas indies are usually the ones doing more weird shit.

So yeah I don't necessarily think struggling is something causes any game developer to be more creative. Taking bigger risks can make sense whether you're struggling or thriving, depending on the situation.
 
Historically, their success has repeatedly lead directly to the arrogant mistakes that create their failures. I wouldn't actually say their failure periods had better games or anything though. Like, peak Wii is probably one of the worse Nintendo eras? But aside from that not really.
 
Luneth said:
Switch has shown us the opposite. They are now more successful than ever and they are also releasing more games than ever, even the more creative and niche like pikmin, game builder garage or labo.
Click to expand...
I think it showed us more that their quality and creativity is completely independent from their success. They've released consistent bangers regardless of generation
 
Wii U revisionism is pretty funny to me. The early days of the Wii U weren’t exactly what I call “creative”. They launched with one of the least creative Mario games possible; Zelda basically skipped the platform aside from a few ports and a game that is more associated with the Switch; Metroid was AWOL; Donkey Kong was stuck rehashing an existing formula (very well, granted); Kirby rehashed a gimmick from a portable game; Pikmin reversed course from the second game; and so on…

Yeah, Splatoon was dope, as was Mario Maker. Those games came as the console was already hinting at being on its way out. On the Switch, we’ve had year after year with bangers, many of them creative: Odyssey, TOTK, Forgotten Land, Bowser’s Fury, Three Houses, and Dread are all (arguably) as interesting as anything the Wii U did, and that is just a partial list.

Tl;dr no.
 
While I have some grievances with some series (Pokemon, lack of DK), overall the Switch era of Nintendo is definitely one of the best, especially with how this year is shaping up. Nintendo has always put out great games but I can't say I'm nostalgic for the Wii U era.
 
This has always felt like overly subjective fan wank analysis for people who irrationally love the N64/GC/WiiU to justify how badly those systems did. Just with the Zelda IP we can see all combinations

Twilight Princess was a "safe" title during an era of struggle

Breath of the Wild was a creative "risk" during an era of struggle

Skyward Sword was a creative "risk" during a period of success

Link To The Past was a "safe" title during a period of success
 
This opinion always struck me as one people throw out to sound like they know better than Nintendo and justify whatever past decisions they disagree with.
 
I think they often end up making some of their more clever and/or interesting moves when their backs are to the wall, but I don't think I'd agree with the implied inverse that "a non-struggling Nintendo is an uncreative Nintendo".
 
0
I can't agree with this sentiment as this infallible truth. To me, a struggling Nintendo (or any other company, really, but let's focus on the big N here) isn't more or less creative; it's a desperate Nintendo; desperation often leads to radical, impulsive and different ideas and this can lead to brilliant sparks of creativity ("Humanoid squids with paint guns?! YEAH! LET'S DO IT!") but it can also lead to... other things ("Shit, shit, shit, we need something! Anything! Animal Crossing board game with barely no gameplay to speak of? SURE, WHY THE FUCK NOT?!"). And god knows the Wii U had plenty of both categories. So, yeah...
 
Last edited:
austin-powers.gif
 
Wii U was not a better era in any ways other than the charm of the OS.

Also the premise is flawed. Wii U itself was actually the product of Nintendo not struggling. Wii was a major success and a lot of software planned for Wii U was assuredly decided at a time when Wii was doing well. Games take time.

I might agree a little on the communications piece. But I think it was less about the ‘struggle’ and more that Wii and Wii U era Nintendo were quirky; They had a charming roughness to them. Switch era Nintendo is polished, arguably less ‘fun’, but likely very effective.
 
No one above me watchted that 50 min video, but I think I will tbh, it seems pretty well made.

I'm not sure if his pet peeve is the same as mine but when I look at all internal developed Nintendo games up until now I think they each did something technically innovative and Miyamoto said as much that this was their goal. But now that they have to juggle 5 very successful IPs (AC, Zelda, MK, Splatoon, Mario) that will get new installments whether there's a new idea or not, I do wonder if there will be enough bandwidth in the company for smaller or new IPs. For example Mario Kart, what new things can you exactly do with it other than coat it with a new lick of paint? People who i've asked this could only come up with elements that are already in Sonic & All-Stars racing.
 
I love the Wii U. Still have it under my TV, still think it's an underrated gem. But I cannot agree with this take.

If for no other reason than Nintendo struggled hard with HD development coming off the Wii, and a lot of the console's most hyped games (such as Xenoblade X, Mario Kart 8, etc) were in development before it became apparent how much of a bomba the console was.

Once Nintendo realised what a sales failure they had on their hands? That's when they started moving games to the Switch and trying to pad things out by paying developers for games like Devil's Third or Project Treasure. Remember those? They were the cheap third party exclusives they could pay for while getting their ducks lined up for the next console.

In retrospect and looking at the sum total of its library, the Wii U has some absolute bangers and stone cold classics. But at the time, the console was marred by long software droughts, low quality third party games brought on to try and fill in the gaps, and a clear picture from 2015 onwards that Nintendo had pretty much dropped the console and was moving onto the NX.
 
Lugia667 said:
his last point is that Nintendo does better when it struggles but....is this really true?
Click to expand...
To this I say no, and to this:

Lugia667 said:
Struggling Nintendo is creative Nintendo
Click to expand...

I give you these quotes from a interview that sum it up pretty well:

“People always ask us whether we take risks on purpose. But to us, we don’t really take risks – we just keep trying new things,”

“The thinking that guides us is: what can we do to pleasantly surprise players? It’s not that we’re consciously trying to innovate; we’re trying to find ways to make people happy. The result is that we come up with things other people have not done.”

Link
 
I think their creativity is kinda "timeless" and not tied to success. Other stuff like Joy Con drift, the whole copyright thing, lack of accessibility and so on would probably be handled more agressively and better if they weren't so popular rn anyway though. They ended the horrible YouTube creators program and region lock in 2017 for example, when the Switch had to prove itself and sales from the Wii U era were abysmal. And these things sometimes get mixed up with the quality of the games.
 
I don't think one can safely say that considering Nintendo's high management are always talking about wanting to be creative and think outside of the box even during these greatly successful times.
 
MusicProposition said:
I think their creativity is kinda "timeless" and not tied to success. Other stuff like Joy Con drift, the whole copyright thing, lack of accessibility and so on would probably be handled more agressively and better if they weren't so popular rn anyway though. They ended the horrible YouTube creators program and region lock in 2017 for example, when the Switch had to prove itself and sales from the Wii U era were abysmal. And these things sometimes get mixed up with the quality of the games.
Click to expand...
You really think they would be less protective of their IP if they were less popular. I can’t see the logic
 
Yes. And a non-struggling Nintendo is creative too.

Nintendo is always creative.

A struggling Nintendo just has less of a safety net when they throw up a big hail mary. But still enough that they'll be alright.

I think people look past how safe most of the Wii U's library was as well. It was mostly Splatoon, Mario Maker and Nintendo Land that really tried something. Most of the rest were pretty typical sequels. Good, obviously, with new elements, of course, but not groundbreaking in their innovation.

And if you count BotW, I'd attribute that to a struggling Zelda, not a struggling Nintendo. But it's not like Kirby was struggling when it went 3D. Or Pokemon was struggling when it tried something a little different with L:A. So even then it's not like creativity is born solely from struggle.

And also when Star Fox was struggling, seemingly their best plan was to make the same damn game again with a creative but bad mechanic. There were so many better ways to infuse Star Fox with creativity.
 
No, I think a lot of this revisionism just comes from people having a fondness for whatever Nintendo was present when they were ~11 years old.
 
I think Nintendo are playing it a little safe this gen but who can blame them after the Wii U. That said Labo, Game Builder Garage and Ring Fit are hardly safe.

Yoshifan31 said:
Not at all, Wii U/3DS was by very far the least creative Nintendo has ever been. Like by a landslide
Click to expand...

That's just rubbish, for Wii U we had Splatoon, Mario Maker, Nintendo Land, Captain Toad... not just creative games but games that are either brand new genres or concepts for Nintendo. Mario 3D World was bursting with creativity, the art style of Yoshi's Woolly World, things like Starfox Guard, anti-gravity Mario Kart, commissioning Bayonetta 3, the entire concept of Miiverse etc etc
 
Last edited:
KarmaDesires said:
No one above me watchted that 50 min video, but I think I will tbh, it seems pretty well made.

I'm not sure if his pet peeve is the same as mine but when I look at all internal developed Nintendo games up until now I think they each did something technically innovative and Miyamoto said as much that this was their goal. But now that they have to juggle 5 very successful IPs (AC, Zelda, MK, Splatoon, Mario) that will get new installments whether there's a new idea or not, I do wonder if there will be enough bandwidth in the company for smaller or new IPs. For example Mario Kart, what new things can you exactly do with it other than coat it with a new lick of paint? People who i've asked this could only come up with elements that are already in Sonic & All-Stars racing.
Click to expand...
His thumbnails seem to contain his general points without watching the whole thing. He also seems to prefer the older slower paced directs as well.

I think his main issue is less with Nintendo’s games and more with the companies overall uhh “personality”
 
Nah. Bigger publishers and platform holders were generally just more creative in the past because they had to be. The fact that Nintendo happened to have some struggling consoles during these times was just a coincidence. But many of their most creatives things were during the heights of the Wii and ds, which didn’t struggle at all. I do think they are generally less creative now. Not lacking in quality, just the stuff they make is more standard now. But that has more to do with how the industry functions now more than anything else. Shit is expensive, you can’t take super big risks.
 
Seeing the topics of the video does make my eyes roll. Its very much someone with an opinion arguing that his preferred era in Nintendo history was the best. And if he feels that way, more power to him.

However, I will say that his argument is flawed in my humble opinion. Look, I’ve been playing videogame for like thirty years now and if there is something I have come to realize over the years is that Nintendo has had several interesting era’s and all of them have their own charm. Some of them had quite the lasting power, others weren’t so lucky.

I have come to appreciate Nintendo’s constant change and that’s something you can’t take away. It just depended on how interested the market was. I like how the Wii U/3DS era keeps getting romanticized. Its the gen where everything took a wild turn and game development was weird.
 
The Digital Deluxe promotion (like Gold Coins but more generous) and things like "get a free digital first party game when you buy Mario Kart 8" are what I miss from struggling Nintendo. Club Nintendo was better than My Nintendo, and the Nintendo of the Wii U/3DS era did feel to me a little more quirky and personable than they do today (which is probably due to Iwata's influence, which can't be replaced). But creatively I think they've been as strong as ever.
 
browneyes84 said:
That's just rubbish, for Wii U we had Splatoon, Mario Maker, Nintendo Land, Captain Toad... not just creative games but games that are either brand new genres or concepts for Nintendo. Mario 3D World was bursting with creativity, the art style of Yoshi's Woolly World, things like Starfox Guard, anti-gravity Mario Kart, commissioning Bayonetta 3, the entire concept of Miiverse etc etc
Click to expand...
I'm not saying the Wii U was the least creative Nintendo has ever been, but I feel like you could make a comparable, potentially longer list with every system they've made.
 
Shouldn't Wii U be an argument against a struggling Nintendo being more creative? It's more a case of a full-of-itself Nintendo throwing out concepts even they didn't know how to use well.
 
ngpdrew said:
Wii U revisionism is pretty funny to me. The early days of the Wii U weren’t exactly what I call “creative”. They launched with one of the least creative Mario games possible; Zelda basically skipped the platform aside from a few ports and a game that is more associated with the Switch; Metroid was AWOL; Donkey Kong was stuck rehashing an existing formula (very well, granted); Kirby rehashed a gimmick from a portable game; Pikmin reversed course from the second game; and so on…

Yeah, Splatoon was dope, as was Mario Maker. Those games came as the console was already hinting at being on its way out. On the Switch, we’ve had year after year with bangers, many of them creative: Odyssey, TOTK, Forgotten Land, Bowser’s Fury, Three Houses, and Dread are all (arguably) as interesting as anything the Wii U did, and that is just a partial list.

Tl;dr no.
Click to expand...
This is a really reductionist way of looking at things imo. First of all, I don't think you have to worry about any revisionist history propping up the Wii U. That's by and large a very vocal minority, and the vast majority still hate it lol. But second of all, even if games like Splatoon, Mario Maker or Breath of the Wild came out towards the tail end of the Wii U's life, their development probably started at the very beginning of that generation. And calling Tropical Freeze a formulaic rehash is both insulting to the creativity on display in the level design, and kind of hilarious when you go on praise Tears of the Kingdom as if it isn't just as iterative. If you're gonna count Three Houses you might as well count the 3DS Fire Emblems on the other side too, since it's still that same era of Nintendo. And those games were significantly more of a shakeup to the franchise than Three Houses was.
 
I do miss the weirder risky stuff, but that mostly came from smaller development/publishing costs than the struggle, let’s be honest. The most Nintendo ever leant into their risky stuff was on the DS, and that was because the system was super cheap to develop for, a huge success, and they had the behemoths of NSMB, Brain Training and Pokémon to back it up. Nintendo’s filler stuff used to be weird and small, now it’s rereleases of old games, but that’s not because it’s successful.
 
Phantom Thief said:
No, it's nonsense (and I hate the way these clickbait videos try to use Iwata's image, foh with that, it's in such bad taste)
Click to expand...
I do find it tacky that when controversial nintendo news happens you ALWAYS somebody saying "Iwata would never do this"
 
Lord Azrael said:
This is a really reductionist way of looking at things imo. First of all, I don't think you have to worry about any revisionist history propping up the Wii U. That's by and large a very vocal minority, and the vast majority still hate it lol. But second of all, even if games like Splatoon, Mario Maker or Breath of the Wild came out towards the tail end of the Wii U's life, their development probably started at the very beginning of that generation. And calling Tropical Freeze a formulaic rehash is both insulting to the creativity on display in the level design, and kind of hilarious when you go on praise Tears of the Kingdom as if it isn't just as iterative. If you're gonna count Three Houses you might as well count the 3DS Fire Emblems on the other side too, since it's still that same era of Nintendo. And those games were significantly more of a shakeup to the franchise than Three Houses was.
Click to expand...
These things aren’t even in the same ballpark. TOTK stands on the shoulder of a giant and leaps into outer space. Tropical Freeze is like Returns but slightly better.
 
Yeah, people using Iwata to try and shame people who disagree with them sucks. Be prepared for it to happen some day with Miyamoto, likely by the people who are vilifying him now.
 
Phantom Thief said:
No, it's nonsense (and I hate the way these clickbait videos try to use Iwata's image, foh with that, it's in such bad taste)
Click to expand...
Just because it's an uncommon opinion or you disagree with it doesn't make it clickbait. It's a pretty thoroughly argued, researched and produced video that runs in at almost an hour. I don't agree with his stance, but it obviously did take a lot of work, and dude clearly is passionate about his point.

This isn't some SwitchForce video titled IWATA'S SECRET LAST GAME?! that was just 10 minutes of bullshit or something.

This is a picture of Iwata holding the Wii U, with the title "I Miss the Old Nintendo", and that's exactly what the video is about. There are no claims made to mislead viewers, or shots taken at Iwata. It's pretty complimentary towards him, and actually defends the console that marked the end of his tenure, which most people are far less positive towards. He was a key facet of that era, both behind and in front of the camera. I think using his picture makes sense.
 
0
For those keeping score, a quick example:

From the struggling Gamecube was birthed the Wii.
From the immensely successful Wii came the Wii U.
From the downtrodden Wii U we were gifted the Switch.

All of these were incredibly creative for the industry.

In any case, new developments don't materialize in an instant. Software released at the beginning of a console's life began production long before.
 
0
Lord Azrael said:
If you're gonna count Three Houses you might as well count the 3DS Fire Emblems on the other side too, since it's still that same era of Nintendo. And those games were significantly more of a shakeup to the franchise than Three Houses was.
Click to expand...
???

Three Houses has a more interesting structure than Awakening and SoV, with its four routes and calendar system. It also expanded the class and weapon system by allowing every unit to change to any class and use any weapon type. The game got rid of the overused unit archetypes found in every FE game (the christmas knights, the edgy myrmidon, the Jagen etc.) and instead lets the player choose a group of units at the start of the game.

Magic and bows also got revamped and don't work like regular weapons anymore (although Gaiden / SoV did this first).

The story, despite its flaws, was more entertaining with the whole "childhood friends killing each other", instead of the Gary Sue prince vs the evil dark dragon.

Fates implemented interesting changes like getting rid of weapon durability and the three routes, but few of these were well received. The game having Awakening's skeleton doesn't do it any favors either.
 
Last edited:
TotK is one of the most creative games Nintendo has ever made, it's also one of the safest games they've made being a same world iterative sequel to BotW.

Ultimately I think most successful companies when they struggle will try and be more creative or consumer friendly to try and entice customers back or find a new audience. We saw Nintendo do this with things like motion controls or the Switch form factor. Microsoft did something similar with gamepass and the xbox series s offering a low cost way to play all the current generation games.
 
Luneth said:
Switch has shown us the opposite. They are now more successful than ever and they are also releasing more games than ever, even the more creative and niche like pikmin, game builder garage or labo.
Click to expand...
Agree with this.

Nintendo is basically in everyone’s houses and mouths now. It’s should be up from here
 
Prior to Wii U, I didn't pay attention to what companies were doing so I don't know the exact details of when Nintendo were struggling. However, based on what I have seen from the Switch and the TotK interviews, I feel like they are always striving to be creative.
 
0
You must log in or register to reply here.


Back
Top Bottom