• Hey everyone, staff have documented a list of banned content and subject matter that we feel are not consistent with site values, and don't make sense to host discussion of on Famiboards. This list (and the relevant reasoning per item) is viewable here.

StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (New Staff Post, Please read)

Reader mode
Goodtwin said:
And it solves all the problems for a 12sm chip. On 8nm, it's very big but on 4N it's as small as the Tegra X1. On 8nm it's going to have high power draw making cooling an issue, On 4N the cooling setup from Switch is more than sufficient. Battery life even with low clocks will be bad on 8nm, but with 4N it could be as good as V2 Switch if Nintendo doesn't choose high clocks. On 8nm the ceiling for performance is well short of Xbox Series S, but on 4N it's within a stones throw.
Click to expand...
On 4N, T239 Drake is even much more smaller than X1 or X1+, is just 91mm2
 
What if Nintendo is planning to do a pro style system this gen and will put the 8nm version out first and then 2-3 years from launch release the 4nm version with the lite and Switch 2 Pro OLED? The research on the improved cooling system could make 8nm good enough to reach their performance targets in the meantime, and then allow the 4nm to really sing when it eventually comes out. If they come out with 4nm version I assumed, they likely wouldn't need to do a Switch Pro because of node advancements not being so great. I prefer 4nm now and only, but 8nm and then 4nm upgrade makes sense to me as well, but I don't know if going from Samsung to TSMC will make things difficult. We shall see.
 
Regardless of node, size, clocks, whatever, I'm sure Nintendo will deliver something special and Nintendo like. So bring it on, whatever it is. As long as they have XOne GPU performance + Modern GPU features and modern CPU, I'm more than fine with it.
Gerald said:
If is on 4N what make the biggest sense they are not doomed
Click to expand...
It was a joke...
Mr.Gamerson said:
What if Nintendo is planning to do a pro style system this gen and will put the 8nm version out first and then 2-3 years from launch release the 4nm version with the lite and Switch 2 Pro OLED? The research on the improved cooling system could make 8nm good enough to reach their performance targets in the meantime, and then allow the 4nm to really sing when it eventually comes out. If they come out with 4nm version I assumed, they likely wouldn't need to do a Switch Pro because of node advancements not being so great. I prefer 4nm now and only, but 8nm and then 4nm upgrade makes sense to me as well, but I don't know if going from Samsung to TSMC will make things difficult. We shall see.
Click to expand...
First, if they do on 8nm first, then they will need to keep fabbing on Samsung Foundry. It will be Samsung co-owned IP. So a port to TSMC would need to be handled by different teams. Second, it would be wildly expensive (Current nodes are much more expensive and work intensive).

It also would pose the question: Why not fab your design on the most efficient available node at launch and make your design choices foward thinking enough for future Lite/OLED models, when your expenses are at the highest level and keep the same design and manufacturing until Switch 3? Manufacturing on one node at first and then a second node later is just more than doubling expenses, works, etc. And your target design, performance level, etc will still be compromised by the choices made to accomodate the first, less-efficient, design. We already saw the same happening with Switch.
 
Mr.Gamerson said:
What if Nintendo is planning to do a pro style system this gen and will put the 8nm version out first and then 2-3 years from launch release the 4nm version with the lite and Switch 2 Pro OLED? The research on the improved cooling system could make 8nm good enough to reach their performance targets in the meantime, and then allow the 4nm to really sing when it eventually comes out. If they come out with 4nm version I assumed, they likely wouldn't need to do a Switch Pro because of node advancements not being so great. I prefer 4nm now and only, but 8nm and then 4nm upgrade makes sense to me as well, but I don't know if going from Samsung to TSMC will make things difficult. We shall see.
Click to expand...
That’d be way more expensive than just doing it on 4N from the start, not only due to having to switch manufacturers, but also making what was previously a chip made with DUV onto EUV. Now that Nintendo isn’t in a mad dash to release something, they can afford to have a higher-end node at launch.
 
switchdrake2.png
 
Ghostsonplanets said:
Regardless of node, size, clocks, whatever, I'm sure Nintendo will deliver something special and Nintendo like. So bring it on, whatever it is. As long as they have XOne GPU performance + Modern GPU features and modern CPU, I'm more than fine with it.

It was a joke...

First, if they do on 8nm first, then they will need to keep fabbing on Samsung Foundry. It will be Samsung co-owned IP. So a port to TSMC would need to be handled by different teams. Second, it would be wildly expensive (Current nodes are much more expensive and work intensive).

It also would pose the question: Why not fab your design on the most efficient available node at launch and make your design choices foward thinking enough for future Lite/OLED models, when your expenses are at the highest level and keep the same design and manufacturing until Switch 3? Manufacturing on one node at first and then a second node later is just more than doubling expenses, works, etc. And your target design, performance level, etc will still be compromised by the choices made to accomodate the first, less-efficient, design. We already saw the same happening with Switch.
Click to expand...
I sure hope it’s better than base Xbox one gpu even in handheld it should be comparable to PS4 in raw gpu power before features, Xbox One in raw tf is lower than the steam deck. Unless we are talking about a Sonic Mania (that game can literally run on a 3ds with little issue) than yeah, but not aaa MP4, Mario Kart 9 mode (high performance handheld mode).
 
Langstonboy said:
I sure hope it’s better than base Xbox one gpu even in handheld it should be comparable to PS4 in raw gpu power before features, Xbox One in raw tf is lower than the steam deck. Unless we are talking about a Sonic Mania (that game can literally run on a 3ds with little issue) than yeah, but not aaa MP4, Mario Kart 9 mode (high performance handheld mode).
Click to expand...
Another reason I would expect 4N over 8nm, 2D games and low performance games are well served by a "lower than low" clock in Handheld mode to serve better battery life, which was possible on Tegra X1, but on 8nm T239, would be somewhat difficult because of the power saving cut-off. A native port of Shovel Knight on NG Switch wouldn't have many benefits - but should have far better battery life than even Mariko. On 8nm, low performance games may not present many power savings at all.
 
Adulfzen said:
doubt it'll apply to anything regarding Switch 2 which is the main subject.
Accessories aren't nearly as important to keep secret prior to release by comparison (which the Playstation Portal would fall under).
Click to expand...
Nintendo seems to think differently; remember the N64 NSO controller patent from Sept 2021? Two rectangles was all we got two months prior to the NSO Expansion update, notably because people found the NES/SNES controller patents ahead of NSO's release making their controller shapes very obvious and I'm sure it mildly annoyed them enough to make some policy changes.

Regardless, if anything gets gleaned from a patent before they announce it themselves, heads will be rolling. They've instilled the fear of God and ninjas to proofread anything and everything that gets submitted to the FCC
 
0
I doubt Nintendo would cheap out the Switch’s successor because they might release a revised Switch 2 four years later. That’s risky. The OLED worked for the Switch, but we don’t know if the same strategy will work for the Drake. Nintendo should future proof their next gen console, and not limit it because they might release a revised SKU 48 months later.
 
Ghostsonplanets said:
Regardless of node, size, clocks, whatever, I'm sure Nintendo will deliver something special and Nintendo like. So bring it on, whatever it is. As long as they have XOne GPU performance Modern GPU features and modern CPU,
Click to expand...
Depends on what mode we are talking about. ~XOne GPU in handheld mode would be just enough for acceptable. XOne GPU docked would be horrendous.
 
0
ohlawd said:
What do I do if both screens are cheap?

I end up buying a minimum two Switch 2s anyway 😔
Click to expand...
I've bought three Nintendo Switch myself, but I always keep to the "latest and greatest" Nintendo hardware. It's not much a financial burden for me, but I'm lucky. I've already put the money away for New Switch by putting away a bit of money I don't need every so often.
 
Hermii said:
What is your point?
Click to expand...
NG Switch seems likely to have a decent HDR 1080p LCD, which should be better than even OLED Model thanks to better colour and higher peaks.

If it comes out and it has a cheap SDR LCD I'll be confused and rather mad. What's the point in performance if it looks like shit.
 
Concernt said:
NG Switch seems likely to have a decent HDR 1080p LCD, which should be better than even OLED Model thanks to better colour and higher peaks.

If it comes out and it has a cheap SDR LCD I'll be confused and rather mad. What's the point in performance if it looks like shit.
Click to expand...
To bring down costs, which I’m pretty sure was one of the cited reasons for LCD over OLED.
 
SpaceGodzilla said:
did anything come out of those dock-less switch 2 rumors?
Click to expand...
Not sure which rumors that would be referring to, but if it was from a "found patent", it most likely won't be true ("the Nintendo patent rule: if you find a Nintendo patent for unannounced feature/product, it most likely means Nintendo has decided not to proceed with the patent")
 
0
Jersh said:
Again, Erista models from ~June 2018 onward aren't vulnerable to the USB exploit in RCM mode. New Switches weren't vulnerable to soft mods for over a year before Mariko officially released in a device; hacking was not a driving factor in getting the 16nm models out.


Am I really living in a world where 3 hours of battery life is lopsidedly underclocked? It was the most they could get away with at the time, and that process shrink was years away. I wouldn't expect the new model to have less battery life than the launch Switch.
Click to expand...
If you reread my post you’ll see I said “Redbox Switch” which was released around the time of the Lite after they had shrunk the chip. For that unit they could have boosted both the CPU & GPU clocks by 50% while targeting the same launch battery life but instead they opted to keep the clocks the same and double (in some cases triple) the consoles battery life.

It was probably the correct business move considering data we saw later showed that most people really do use Switch in handheld mode just as much as docked under a TV. This also shows why a hybrid strategy was so universally successful.
 
Samuspet said:
If you reread my post you’ll see I said “Redbox Switch” which was released around the time of the Lite after they had shrunk the chip. For that unit they could have boosted both the CPU & GPU clocks by 50% while targeting the same launch battery life but instead they opted to keep the clocks the same and double (in some cases triple) the consoles battery life.

It was probably the correct business move considering data we saw later showed that most people really do use Switch in handheld mode just as much as docked under a TV. This also shows why a hybrid strategy was so universally successful.
Click to expand...
But they could have boosted the GPU/RAM clocks just for docked mode.
 
Also, with the rumored screen being 1080p and larger, this should be an indication of a more power efficient node and chip as well? Everybody seemed fine with 720p, but when the rumor came out to be 1080p for the screen, that was a sign to me that they were probably using something better than 8nm.
 
Dakhil said:
TSMC's N7 process node family can't be completely discounted since Nvidia's currently using that for fabricating several datacentre products (e.g. A100 (here, here, and here), BlueField-3 (here and here), etc.).
Click to expand...

I think that's what I was getting at. Ok, it's extremely unlikely to be Samsung 8nm, let alone Samsung 5nm, but was also wondering if there were potentially other nodes that could be used besides the obvious. We wouldn't be doing our jobs in this thread in terms of speculation, and theories without at least bringing it up.

That all said, TSMC 4N does make the most sense, at least to us anyway. Maybe it doesn't to Nintendo and Nvidia for all we know.

Mr.Gamerson said:
Also, with the rumored screen being 1080p and larger, this should be an indication of a more power efficient node and chip as well? Everybody seemed fine with 720p, but when the rumor came out to be 1080p for the screen, that was a sign to me that they were probably using something better than 8nm.
Click to expand...

I was thinking given how conservative Nintendo are about clocks, battery life, and cooling, it's possible an 8" screen is more for how large the cooling system may be, and/or possible expandable storage options.

I was watching MVG's video about how difficult the N64 was to program for, and was stuck out to me was the comment from Gunpei concerning how they designed the N64 for peak performance rather than sustained performance. They were wrong about that, and it's influenced their designs ever since.
 
Samuspet said:
That’s what I had hoped for but then you’re giving developers another mode to optimise for and at that point I doubt they envisioned selling another 100 million units of that kind.
Click to expand...
Eh, I wouldn't necessarily say another mode to work with. My thought is more like replacing the existing dock mode clocks for v2/OLED, but devs cannot specifically work with them. They must work with v1's dock mode clocks, and v2/OLED would simply give them a little breathing room in cases where v1 struggles.
 
0
Mr.Gamerson said:
Also, with the rumored screen being 1080p and larger, this should be an indication of a more power efficient node and chip as well? Everybody seemed fine with 720p, but when the rumor came out to be 1080p for the screen, that was a sign to me that they were probably using something better than 8nm.
Click to expand...
I'd argue the opposite. So far the evidence suggests this thing is not going to be as thin and sleek as the Switch. It's going to have a 1080p 7.9" screen, which likely will have significant bezels due to being LCD. We can see from the recent patent release that Nintendo has been looking into improved cooling, which suggests the wattage will be significantly higher than Switch. We know that Nintendo is being pushed into going expensive on the storage (likely due to pressure form 3rd parties who need the thing to be able to store 100+GB games if Nintendo wants decent AAA third party support).

Seems like at this point the most likely result is going to be something Steam Deck or ROG Ally sized on 8nm.
 
TomNookYankees said:
I'd argue the opposite. So far the evidence suggests this thing is not going to be as thin and sleek as the Switch. It's going to have a 1080p 7.9" screen, which likely will have significant bezels due to being LCD. We can see from the recent patent release that Nintendo has been looking into improved cooling, which suggests the wattage will be significantly higher than Switch. We know that Nintendo is being pushed into going expensive on the storage (likely due to pressure form 3rd parties who need the thing to be able to store 100+GB games if Nintendo wants decent AAA third party support).

Seems like at this point the most likely result is going to be something Steam Deck or ROG Ally sized on 8nm.
Click to expand...

Bezels won’t be impacted by the screen type or size.

p1015114.jpg
 
TomNookYankees said:
I'd argue the opposite. So far the evidence suggests this thing is not going to be as thin and sleek as the Switch. It's going to have a 1080p 7.9" screen, which likely will have significant bezels due to being LCD. We can see from the recent patent release that Nintendo has been looking into improved cooling, which suggests the wattage will be significantly higher than Switch. We know that Nintendo is being pushed into going expensive on the storage (likely due to pressure form 3rd parties who need the thing to be able to store 100+GB games if Nintendo wants decent AAA third party support).

Seems like at this point the most likely result is going to be something Steam Deck or ROG Ally sized on 8nm.
Click to expand...
I'm typing right now from a cheap Chinese smartphone with an LCD screen with smaller bezels than the Switch OLED, so I don't know if the 7.9 inches will actually translate into a considerably larger console.
One possibility that I believe is that Nintendo saw that the Switch Lite did not have as much demand as they expected, so increasing the size of the base Switch 2 a little and later launching an even smaller Lite 2 would bring more balance between the devices and achieve a small untapped market share.
 
LinkURL said:
I'm typing right now from a cheap Chinese smartphone with an LCD screen with smaller bezels than the Switch OLED, so I don't know if the 7.9 inches will actually translate into a considerably larger console.
One possibility that I believe is that Nintendo saw that the Switch Lite did not have as much demand as they expected, so increasing the size of the base Switch 2 a little and later launching an even smaller Lite 2 would bring more balance between the devices and achieve a small untapped market share.
Click to expand...
Therefore, I believe that perhaps Nintendo will reposition the base Switch 2 and Lite 2 on the market.
Switch 2: a slightly larger and more ergonomic hybrid, but not as portable, ideal for being a "home portable" like the current Switch, Deck and Ally
Lite 2: a true portable, even smaller than the original Lite, but with a considerably smaller screen and compromised ergonomics.
 
0
The Lite didn’t have much demand because it was a poor proposition compared to the base model & OLED. Making it a true portable does little to address those deficiencies when consumers are deciding on a product. Reducing the size further + comprising even more on ergonomics means it could find less of a consumer base then before.
 
Shoulder said:
I think that's what I was getting at. Ok, it's extremely unlikely to be Samsung 8nm, let alone Samsung 5nm, but was also wondering if there were potentially other nodes that could be used besides the obvious. We wouldn't be doing our jobs in this thread in terms of speculation, and theories without at least bringing it up.

That all said, TSMC 4N does make the most sense, at least to us anyway. Maybe it doesn't to Nintendo and Nvidia for all we know.



I was thinking given how conservative Nintendo are about clocks, battery life, and cooling, it's possible an 8" screen is more for how large the cooling system may be, and/or possible expandable storage options.

I was watching MVG's video about how difficult the N64 was to program for, and was stuck out to me was the comment from Gunpei concerning how they designed the N64 for peak performance rather than sustained performance. They were wrong about that, and it's influenced their designs ever since.
Click to expand...

Couple things, why are you completely dismissing Samsung 5nm? Not saying it's likely, or ideal, but certainly possible unless I am missing something. It makes more sense than 8nm, it's just not as good as 4N.

N64 was actually very capable, and programmers have actually been able to recompile Mario 64 to be a 60fps game on native hardware. Developers just didn't have the experience at that point to really squeeze efficiently with the N64 hardware.
 
mjayer said:
The patent lets us know, without a doubt, that Nintendo is working on novel cooling solutions for portable consoles. That is interesting information.
Click to expand...
Nintendo trying their absolute hardest to get that little thing to run current gen games for the upcoming years.... Sounds like the previous expectation as it was.
 
Goodtwin said:
Couple things, why are you completely dismissing Samsung 5nm? Not saying it's likely, or ideal, but certainly possible unless I am missing something. It makes more sense than 8nm, it's just not as good as 4N.

N64 was actually very capable, and programmers have actually been able to recompile Mario 64 to be a 60fps game on native hardware. Developers just didn't have the experience at that point to really squeeze efficiently with the N64 hardware.
Click to expand...
Not sure what his reasons was for dismissing Samsung 5nm, but do we have nvidia products that used Samsung 5nm process node?

I know Samsung SEC8N and TSMC 4N are the prominent choices. But are there other process nodes being used for the nvidia products manufactured in the last couple of years?
 
Goodtwin said:
N64 was actually very capable, and programmers have actually been able to recompile Mario 64 to be a 60fps game on native hardware. Developers just didn't have the experience at that point to really squeeze efficiently with the N64 hardware.
Click to expand...
"Programmers" Just say Kaze. It's one guy who was dedicated enough to making N64 roms that he did the necessary work to optimize Mario 64.
 
Shoulder said:
I was thinking given how conservative Nintendo are about clocks, battery life, and cooling, it's possible an 8" screen is more for how large the cooling system may be, and/or possible expandable storage options.
Click to expand...
I’d understand that argument if it were just an increase in screen size, but not if it’s 1080p. A 2.25 times increase in pixel count means that you need more power, thus higher clocks, thus a higher TDP, to get an acceptable image. If the increase in screen size was just to accommodate larger internals, then surely they’d want to have a lower-resolution screen to take a significant load off of the GPU.
 
Goodtwin said:
N64 was actually very capable, and programmers have actually been able to recompile Mario 64 to be a 60fps game on native hardware. Developers just didn't have the experience at that point to really squeeze efficiently with the N64 hardware.
Click to expand...
If I understand the situation with the N64, Nintendo worked with SGI on the system, and SGI favored extreme precision over speed. The available microcode used since launch reflected that. Devs were not given access to make their own microcode until much later in the system's life, and documentation of that was only given to a select few, like Rareware and Factor 5. Hell, Nintendo supposedly promoted custom microcode, but didn't make it available until much later because of fear of the competition copying it.
 
Reader mode
You must log in or register to reply here.
Please read this new, consolidated staff post before posting.

Furthermore, according to this follow-up post, all off-topic chat will be moderated.
Last edited by a moderator:


Back
Top Bottom