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StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (New Staff Post, Please read)
- Thread starter Dakhil
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"AI powered" is the most hollow buzzword these days. while I expect them to make use of tensor cores beyond DLSS, I don't foresee much of anything "AI powered" since there's not many problems that can be solved with the amount of power available on tap for a real-time workload
Ghostsonplanets
Ghost in the Sales
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I believe Apple does use 2x 4GB 64-bit LPDDR5 modules for the Apple M3 8GB SKU
p.i
UE5 is already on Switch with Fortnite.
the advanced features (namely lumen) has been demonstrated on mobile phones as well
OP
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That's factually false since Micron does mention that 4 GB (32 Gb) 64-bit LPDDR5 modules are in production, although I don't know how up to date Micron's LPDDR5 catalogue is. And I think there's a good chance Jetson Orin NX (8 GB)'s using two 4 GB 64-bit LPPDR5 modules since Nvidia mentions Jetson Orin NX (8 GB) having 8 GB of 128-bit LPDDR5.
I don't think there's anything stopping developers from developing patches for Nintendo Switch games to take advantage of the new hardware features when running on Nintendo's new hardware, which is probably a good amount of work for developers, but 100% doable.
Does it have to be completely separate though? They can't just patch in nvn2 support?
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I think that's very possible, but I think Nintendo would like to keep production and product offerings streamlined. A new generation will already complicate things. I'm of the opinion that one of the current offerings, likely V2, is about to go ahead and disappear before or with the launch of the new generation.
So, White OLED, Black New Gen, Lite, and that's it.
Neoxon
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It’s not just the hardware you have to sell, it’s also the Day 1 & launch window games. That’s not feasible in just 2 months, especially for a major seller like 3D Mario.
Once again, March reveal -> September release is the most realistic scenario right more based on everything we know. I get that we want the Switch 2 as soon as possible, but patience is key.
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How many times will it be said before the end of the year.
People buying Nintendo Switch systems now are NOT the target audience of a new generation and the people who would buy a new generation at launch are not the type to wait six years to jump in.
I agree with you on the matter of compatibility being maintained, libraries being shared, and the new console filling the role of "premium" device to begin with, as it always would have. I also think the people predicting little or no cross gen content, or that they'll drop the Switch in any kind of hurry, are seriously jumping the gun. The new system will get games that are ONLY possible on the new system, including first parties, but that's far from every game. Nintendo Switch likely has years of support left, just not years of major first party titles.
also important to note that this model came later than the models with more RAM
PS5 requires 100% separate versions, you can't have PS5 patches you need to redownload the entire game.
Xbox Series I believe allows next gen patches, but they're often quite large. The only source I can find is this one about the Witcher 3 patch.
"The Witcher 3 Next-Gen update appears to have a download size of around 35-40GB. That was our experience during the "hands-on impressions" period, although further optimisations may alter the size prior to launch on Wednesday.
If you're downloading the entire version of the game from scratch, you're probably looking at over 50GB."
The Witcher 3 Next-Gen Release Date, Release Times, Download Size Details On Xbox
Everything you need to know
www.purexbox.com
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I think that's unfortunately inevitable, especially if higher quality assets, etc., are being used.PS5 requires 100% separate versions, you can't have PS5 patches you need to redownload the entire game.
Xbox Series I believe allows next gen patches, but they're often quite large. The only source I can find is this one about the Witcher 3 patch.
"The Witcher 3 Next-Gen update appears to have a download size of around 35-40GB. That was our experience during the "hands-on impressions" period, although further optimisations may alter the size prior to launch on Wednesday.
If you're downloading the entire version of the game from scratch, you're probably looking at over 50GB."
The Witcher 3 Next-Gen Release Date, Release Times, Download Size Details On Xbox
Everything you need to know
It's an implementation decision. There will likely have to be some amount of new code to support both APIs, but it's ultimately largely down to Nintendo how they want packaging games for both systems to look.
For devs that want to put in the effort for a full next gen patch that's great, but doing the bare minimum (max out settings and frame rate of the current Switch code), that's a whole lot better than nothing. So I hope Nintendo will allow this sort of enhanced BC, similar to what homebrewers have been doing for years.
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Because LCD screens are, across the industry, cheaper than OLED screens. LCD is manufactured by basically every screen vendor, and not encumbered by patents. OLED has few significant vendors who all pay Samsung license fees.
In televisions and monitors, the consumer market where we can check these things, OLEDs are consistently 3x the price for the same size from the same vendor.
The Switch LCD is a standard resolution and size. 1080p, 12.4 inch LCDs are extremely common, in Android tablets and in cars. Every major LCD manufacturer makes them, and they can be readily cut into 4 720p screens apiece.
The OLED model’s screen is custom, and currently only manufactured by Samsung. It is also larger than the LCD.
There is no world where Samsung is delivering these OLED screens at a price where they cannot be undercut by a huge margin by Tianma, Innolux and Japan Display competing to deliver an LCD
These are replacement screens being bought by third party companies who provide replacements, not Nintendo. This is folks buying the screens directly from the same vendors as Nintendo, and reflect the off the shelf price. The OLED is 430% more expensive.
If we assume that Nintendo is able to negotiate a huge price reduction on the 15 million OLED screens they bought from Samsung and were NOT able to do the same thing for the 100+ million LCD screens they purchased from multiple vendors - then it’s still almost impossible to imagine it not being twice as expensive to get an OLED.
You are correct. And in order to profit from that perception, they need to charge higher for the LCDs. Nintendo isn’t a manufacturer of screens and is as much subject to these pricing forces as the rest of the market.
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NVN2 is not API compatible with NVN. It’s close but you would need to do some work maintaining two builds.
Most devs don’t use NVN though. Obviously there is Vulkan and OpenGL but there is also GFX. GFX is a Nintendo library built on top of NVN, and Nintendo guarantees API stability across hardware. In theory GFX users might have an ability to detect their platform and enable new features.
boomersooner2000
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Thank you so much @oldpuck for the clarification. Your explanations make it easier for me to understand, I'm so excited for the upcoming Switch 2
Zeal543
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That's actually not true, going by the Gigaleak, shown by LiC below.
On the subject of RAM for the original Switch:
This gigaleak slide from June 2015 shows they were already planning on using 4 GB (although it's bolded, so maybe it was changed recently?). Funnily enough, it also shows they were planning on 16 GB of internal storage at that point. That changed to 32 GB sometime in the next 8-ish months, though.
LiC
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And just to be clear, June 2015 is only 3 months after they actually signed the agreement to produce the Switch as we know it with Nvidia.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Manakete
I do wonder if the Switch 2 could end up helping the Series S.
Because there have been some… really bad Series S versions recently due to the Series S being weak and it being an unpopular console.
Wonder if some devs try to start targeting Series S, then porting down to Switch 2 and up to PS5 (And Series X and PS5 Pro) instead of targeting PS5 and then porting down to Series S.
Because there have been some… really bad Series S versions recently due to the Series S being weak and it being an unpopular console.
Wonder if some devs try to start targeting Series S, then porting down to Switch 2 and up to PS5 (And Series X and PS5 Pro) instead of targeting PS5 and then porting down to Series S.
Zeal543
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Thank you for posting this
BreakAtmo
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Fair enough, thanks for the explanation. I especially didn't know about the fees being taken by Samsung. So, would what we know about the Switch 2 screen also match with a commonly-produced LCD screen? Or would a 7.91" 1080p screen need to be custom-ordered regardless, thus minimising the savings of going LCD?
I was assuming that Nintendo would've gotten major price reductions on both, but there's a floor to that since the display manufacturers need to make SOME profit. Honestly the main reason why I brought this up is that I remember a Bloomberg article from shortly before the Switch OLED was announced that leaked the OLED screen details, including a per-unit price of $17, which doesn't exactly square with the common claims that OLED is still super-expensive (and that Nintendo couldn't afford to include it in Switch 2). If you assume the "twice as expensive as the LCD" scenario then that would only be an extra $8-9 a unit. Do you know at all if that number is accurate, or did they get that information wrong?
Ghostsonplanets
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The only thing they will say will be: Nvidia Custom Processor in the specifications page and that's it. Nintendo haven't revealed hardware specs since the Gamecube and they won't start now.
This way, they avoid any unwarranted comparison that people might try to do and avoid creating online narratives. After all, consumers don't need to know anything about the innards of the system. They just need to watch, see that it look cool and buy it.
BreakAtmo
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Could it be helpful for gameplay capture?
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I'd be surprised. Nintendo doesn't even mention the Tegra X1 by name, much less the amount of RAM or system clocks. There'd probably have to be testing after the device releases for us to know for sure, unless a manual or something leaks prior.
LiC
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The only official "specs" we're likely to ever get are weight, screen size, and battery life.
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If people have a betrayal trigger that sensitive, they must hate Nintendo already. Even the last first party Famicom game (Wario's Woods) came only 3 1/4 years after Super Famicom. And it was about a year before that for the last one many people remember very fondly (Kirby's Adventure).
I mean, it keeps being repeated because we keep going around in circles. Hardware prices don't drop like they used to, so the people willing to buy a Switch now for $300+ aren't necessarily very different from the people willing to buy a Switch 2 for $400+. This is not $129 PS2 next to $499 PS3. Or even $129 Wii next to $299 Wii U. The biggest evidence we have of current Switch buyers not being early adopters is that they are literally unable to be at this point and have been for years.
sure. maybe recording is locked to 30fps again, and for 60fps games, the game can tell the OS to use the OFA to double the framerate of recordings to be accurate
Like I said, it'll primarily come down to how Nintendo wants cross gen games to be packaged. Something as trivial as namespacing could allow both versions of NVN to coexist if that's what Nintendo wants.
Individualised
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If I am understanding it correctly, NVN and NVN2 are not compatible. Patching a game to support NVN2 essentially involves creating an entirely new version of the game altogether, or at least it would take the same amount of effort. Depending on how Nintendo handle things even that might not be possible and they will have to create native versions for cross-gen games.
darthdiablo
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Yes, that's also my understanding.
Take TOTK for example. Maybe Nintendo decides they want to have TOTK take advantage of Switch 2 features.
They'd have to release a "next gen" patch that: 1) Replaces NVN with NVN2, and 2) Update game core logic to take advantage of NVN2 and potentially new features (DLSS and whatnots). NVN and NVN2 is pretty tiny in size, so we're not talking about replacing a big footprint. Replacing NVN with NVN2, among with patching the core game logic to use NVN2, effectively makes it "native" to Switch 2.
That was based on earlier discussion in this thread (not recent). I then asked if that potentially means 16GB (or more) worth of download. I was told no, it does not, as most of the game size is due to game assets (textures, graphic files, etc) which can just be used by the new patch (with NVN -> NVN2 replacement, and core game logic updates). Unless, of course, the developer decides to also replace those assets with higher resolution versions, which would then push up the size of the theoretical patch size substantially.
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Just a complete shot in the dark from someone not as in the know, but given games are already made targeting handheld and docked profiles, couldn't they just have basically handheld_2 and docked_2 profiles using NVN2 and better assets instead?
I'm pretty sure if they have designed Switch 2 with BC and crossgen possibilities in mind this kind of thing is not that farfetched to do.
I'm pretty sure if they have designed Switch 2 with BC and crossgen possibilities in mind this kind of thing is not that farfetched to do.
And when Switch was released with 4GB of RAM, Apple phones were being sold with 2-3GB of RAM.
darthdiablo
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Switch 2 isn't shipped with NVN2, the games are shipped with NVN for Switch 1 games (or NVN2, if the game is Switch 2 only)
So just adding handheld_2 and docked_2 profiles I don't think would work, assuming we want an already-released Switch 1 game (which wouldn't have NVN2) to take advantage of Switch 2's capabilities. We have to also replace NVN (that is shipped with the game) with NVN2, which can be done via patch.
But yes, once NVN2 is in place, I'm sure the devs would in most scenarios want to add "handheld_2" and "docked_2" profiles also.
well, games can support multiple APIs, it's done on PC (like Red Dead 3 having DX11 and Vulkan). so, in theory, they can do this. better assets? that's arbitrary, but they'd be tied to the NVN2 profiles, yes
ItWasMeantToBe19
Manakete
Okay, so I looked up the UE5 documentation again and
1. Software Lumen almost certainly doesn't use the RT cores at all (due to the lack of an obvious advantage of NVIDIA cards running Lumen High and Lumen Epic and because it's explicitly called "Software Lumen")
2. Hardware Lumen does use the RT cores, but Hardware Lumen uses BVH structures.
I don't know if there's any games that use RT Cores without a BVH structure (as again, the RT cores were... designed for hardware ray tracing using BVH structures)
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So my thought was basically that. Games can support multiple APIs on PC. The entire talk of "patches that replace NVN" felt off. Why not patches that add the new profiles and NVN2 support to be used if played on Switch 2, but that also still keep all the Switch 1 code?
darthdiablo
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I had thought about that yes, but am not sure how that would work or be necessary but others here would be more knowledgeable about that kind of question than I would be.
The thing is, the patch is downloaded somewhere.. to either a Switch 1 or Switch 2. In case of an already-released Switch 1 (that has no NVN2), and assuming we're talking about a scenario where we want to update Switch 1 game to take advantage of Switch 2's hardware capabilities.
The patch would be downloaded to Switch 2. What would keeping NVN around accomplish? But yes, the dev can totally decide not to remove NVN and just keep it there (have both NVN and NVN2).
But when I move the gamecard to Switch 1, the patch isn't going with me there. And because game is already Switch 1 native, there's no need for patch on Switch 1. The patch only applies for playing the gamecard on Switch 2, is downloaded only to Switch 2.
As for keeping Switch 1 code intact, I doubt Switch 1 code would know to look for or use NVN2 without modifications. In theory a developer now could release a new Switch 1 game that has NVN2 bundled together with NVN and the game code can use either NVN or NVN2 depending on underlying hardware configuration. But this won't apply to older Switch 1 games that was already released.
because the RT cores are still a black box, accelerating a different struct is currently out of the cards. if we're lucky NVN2 could expose RT cores to alternative formats.
D
Deleted member 887
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LCD and OLED screens are all basically built as giant sheets, then cut to size. So while there aren't 1080p screens on the market that are the right size, there are plenty of 4k laptop screens that are possible matches. Meaning that while the backside connections would need to be custom, the "sheet" is already mass produced. Innolux has several possible screens that match that profile already.
I don't know if that is accurate, but there was a strong statement from Nintendo saying that Bloomberg's estimate of profit margin for the OLED was incorrect enough to be misleading to investors.
I desperately want an OLED screen on this thing, and I'm hoping the rumors are incomplete. But considering they've locked themselves into more expensive memory (by going with the 64-bit bus), are likely going with more expensive storage (based on loading time demos), and are probably on the most expensive process node not totally locked down by Apple, the screen may be the only place to recover some margins. Switch 2 price likely somewhat baked in on a "what would people pay for a sequel console" level, and can't much move.
So even if the difference is $17, that comes out to a quarter billion dollars in the launch year alone of reduced profit. Memory, clock speeds, storage speeds - these all permanently affect the health of platform, as they get locked in as the baseline for the whole generation. Screen quality doesn't do that, it just needs to be a good enough value for the money that people buy the product, and it's easily resolvable by a revision.
That's why I think, as much as it pains me, we probably will get an LCD screen, even if the cost different is relatively small from our POV.
I have actually wondered if the OFA might be used by NVENC, the video encoder that's on the hardware, but if it isn't, it's almost definitely usable to improve/accelerate video capture.
I also don't know this for a fact, but just listening to some of what Nvidia's said, I think the OFA may be used during DLSS Ray Reconstruction
If Nintendo wants to support a single binary that runs fully natively on both systems (which I think they probably do, for file size reasons, but we have no hard evidence on what their strategy is here), then, worst case scenario, it would be similar to a game on PC that supported multiple graphics APIs. Under a more Sony or Microsoft style system, there would be a separate binary for each system, which each only support that system's API, functionally treating it as a separate platform. We don't really know how Nintendo will choose to handle cross-gen games, and can only make educated guesses.
It is also possible for games that don't run natively to be made aware of the platform they're running on and adjust settings accordingly, but that would be a separate category, if allowed.
darthdiablo
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Yeah. I'm working with those assumptions/speculation (which could be off base, Nintendo could do something different):
For pre-existing Switch 1 games:
Switch 2 will have "BC mode", which requires no patches to run Switch 1 games (it works like emulation)
At developer's discretion, they can also release patches to have Switch 1 games run natively on Switch 2 (requires adding NVN2, as I don't believe NVN will be compatible with Switch 2), and in most cases this would probably mean updating game code to detect NVN2. Dev would also add profiles for both Switch 2 handheld and docked modes. This is necessary if the dev wants pre-existing Switch 1 game to take advantage of better hardware capabilities (Switch 2, DLSS, etc)
For future Switch 1 games:
Also at developer's discretion, they could ship cross-gen games with both NVN and NVN2, and include profiles for all 4: Switch 1 handheld, Switch 1 docked, Switch 2 handheld, Switch 2 docked. No patching required.
ReddDreadtheLead
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It’s 4 of them which are 4GB and 32b each so that’s 16GB of memory. Steam Deck OLED model uses 2 modules, which are 8GB each, and are 64b each.
Steam Deck has a 128b interface.
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