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StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (New Staff Post, Please read)

Remember when people swore up and down that the Steam Deck was gonna be the "Switch Killer"? Good times.......
it's a great device but a clear example of the hardcore gamer echo chamber we see here and on era. How many units has it sold? 4M? Switch does that in a quarter. People who looked at the steam deck as a switch killer were clueless and small-minded. Steamdeck is a great step forward for PC gaming though. Could be the beginning of something special.

Curious what's to come next and, if the rumors are true, an updated model may be announced soon.
 
I've seen Microsoft get crap thrown their way from time to time, albeit from Sony zealots. But yeah, it feels like it's been that way since the Wii days.
The Pony-Xbot Peace Accords, known internationally as the FTC Tuesday Agreement, were signed with the understanding that to maintain harmony between these former warring factions, Nintendrones worldwide must be offered up as collateral damage
 
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Switch trounces those PC handhelds in regards to convenience and seamlessness, I don't think further tweaking of Steam OS or a more tablet friendly Windows interface would change that, since it's difficult to define 'docked' and 'handheld' modes for PC games with their myriad of different in-game configurations. This is the advantage of a console environment. There's also the fact that there's no physical media for PC. From the perspective of a games enthusiast who doesn't mind tinkering, these other devices may be legitimate contenders for their free time, especially if they can access their full PC library. That's fair.

But honestly... I'm a games enthusiast and I get annoyed when Elden Ring boots and the game jankily shifts from windowed to full screen and blacks out, or when some games output to the wrong sound device when I have my laptop plugged into a TV, or when some don't have a freaking resolution option (???) and default to native. I'm willing to put up with it cause I only have a Switch and PC for current/last-gen games but the moment more games come to Switch 2 I'm saying sayonara to my janky ass 'hybrid' setup.

Not that Nintendo should ignore these devices. They should continue to emphasize the merits of their own console - which they have done since the Switch reveal when they showed off BotW easily going from TV to handheld in a second. With Switch 2 they have the advantages of a sufficiently powered handheld, great upscaling, and convenience. The instant loading demo to devs also excites me, as this promises an additional layer of convenience for certain games.
 
IMO, this.

I think those are the companies that had some hosting capacity. Most of them, if applicable, would already have a devkit, and maybe attended Nintendo's booth to further cement the relationship.

Hundreds of other companies were represented in the form of attendees. Pubslishers, tech leads and devs officially representing their companies but not appearing on any bulletin. Those were probably the main target of Nintendo's presentations.

But I don't think any of this is relevant for launch titles, or even titles launching in the first year. Devs would need months, if not years, to make anything of it. First-year titles were probably negotiated a long time ago and sparsely scheduled to maximize demand and revenue. Nintendo will want that launch window for themselves and their partners before opening the flood gates to third-parties at large and dilute their own sales.
if i may ask, aside from gamescom & tgs, what other gaming events where many companies & devs attends that nintendo could also make use of to show tech demos privately?
 
I think scary that iPhone15Pro uses the world's most advanced 3nm process,
but it is only 10% more powerful CPU and 20% more powerful GPU than 4nm (=5nm) of one generation ago.
It means the moore's law is dead after 3nm makes difficult to develop Switch3.
But it is too early to worry when Switch2 is not released yet...
To be fair, N3 is basically TSMC squeezing every last drop out of FinFET to buy time for them to get the transition to GAAFET right. So expectations were (or at least, should have) always been a smaller leap compared to the moves to N7 or N5.
Have heard it said - in here even - that emulation won't even be possible going forward because of the DLSS and RT on top of Nintendo's new security measures that have made it impossible to crack the V2 which is why all games need to be jacked through the V1, so NG Switch is probably locked down to the point it'll only be able to run on itself
Nah, it won't be impossible. It's not a problem whose computational complexity is infinite; it's still finite.
...whether current or near future consumer PCs are up to it is a different consideration :p

Hmm, taking a look at the minimum and recommended specs for Yuzu are...
Minimum CPU: i5-4430 or Ryzen 3 1200. On Intel side, that's 4c/4t Haswell, which introduced AVX2. On AMD side, that's 4c/4t Zen, which does support AVX2, but FP/vector throughput is 2x128 bit, so that reduces AVX2 to half speed relative to Haswell-and-later (and Zen 2-and-later)
Recommended CPU: i5-11400/Ryzen 5 3600. Mainly bumps things up to 6c/12t, as they do recommend at least 6 threads.
Optimal's more or less 'get the fastest gaming CPU'
Unfortunately, it's hard to tell how much headroom there is for single thread power here, which makes it even tougher to guess how much more would you need per thread for the NG. Although the recommendation of 6 threads or more is interesting for a 4c/4t device. That does leave me wondering if a 6c/12t CPU would be sufficient for emulating the NG :unsure:

RAM: minimum (with discrete GPU) of 8 GB, minimum (using integrated graphics) of 12, recommended of 16, optimal of 32.
If RAM needs scale up proportionally (not necessarily the case), we're looking at a what, at least triple? So minimum of 24 GB with dGPU, 36 with iGPU, recommendation of 48, and optimal being 96?
Currently existing builds probably wouldn't meet the recommended bar, no. But that bar won't be hard to clear in the near future. A pair of 32 GB DIMMs/sticks in a new build, easy.
Aside: "But a pair of 32 GB is still kind of expensive?" Yea, for now. But that's why you pay attention to relevant news. I'll put the explanation in a footnote.

Discrete GPU: this is where things get a bit interesting...
Minimum's basically asking for 4 GB VRAM, recommended's asking for 6 or 8, and optimal's asking for 10 or 12.
... but there do exist outliers. Certain outliers with strong demand.
Read this.

So, I'm alluding to something. If you've been reading what I've posted for a while, you can figure out what. But here are the steps:
See the Micron roadmap I linked to above. Think about what the VRAM situation for discrete GPUs might look like in the near future.
Think of what the biggest games on the NG might end up being like. Like the next open world Zelda. Think of what might need to be done, and how that might not translate so cleanly to PC GPUs, as that Yuzu blog post discusses.
It's up in the air as to whether a (early?) GDDR7 era high end consumer dGPU will have sufficient memory to avoid noticeable quality loss on certain outliers.

*so, DIMMs/sticks of RAM. If I understand things correctly, a consumer DIMM contains either 1 or 2 ranks. A rank is a set of 8 memory dies. So the current consumer 32 GB sticks contain 2 ranks using 16 Gigabit/2 Gigabyte dies. Once 32 Gigabit/4 Gigabytes start getting made, you can make a 32 GB DIMM from 1 rank; that is, 8 dies. So, cost should go down. Alternatively, this should enable 64 GB DIMMs (2 ranks, or 16 dies, x 4 GB per die).
Oh, I know some of you reading this notice that I didn't mention everything about ranks. Shush you :p If you know, you know, and if you don't, that's fine, cause it's min-maxing that's not relevant to the general audience.
 
Apple increasing their gaming presence is absolutely a threat to Nintendo, but itโ€™s not going to materially impact Switch 2 sales. Itโ€™s a threat in the sense that they cannot ignore any major player in the handheld/gaming space.

The same goes for the Steam Deck and the new wave of Windows handhelds. Theyโ€™re niche right now, but Nintendo should feel threatened by them. Weโ€™re only seeing the first wave of more mainstream handheld Windows devices - will things change when Windows creates a competent โ€œHandheld modeโ€?

The point isnโ€™t where these companies are right now itโ€™s where they could be further down the line. Nintendo is in a strong position right now but they will be heads down, โ€œthreatenedโ€ by the potential of these big players disrupting the market.
Fully agree.
I think NX2 is a guaranteed success, but in a decade or two, things will be unrecognizable.

Nintendo may be in their own dedicated segment right now, but all adjacent segments are expanding into their territory.

Ultimately, I believe all markets are converging.
In a decade, we may have a single device that pairs with our big screens at home, our speakers, and docks to our monitor/keyboard/mouse at work, our car, etc.
Phones already do that to some extent with the help of all kind of third-party synchronizations but we still require multiple devices.

At work, I already use Remote Desktop for most projects today.
In a sense, I'm already using cloud streaming for work, with my laptop being only a terminal.
My phone could already do that if it could "dock" to a full UX.
I expect to get only a phone for work in a few years, instead of a laptop/workstation, if it can "dock" to multiple monitors and multiple inputs, and/or run full development environments.

Gaming may have a few more generations left than other markets, but mobile tech is closing in on the compute required to convince the average user.
If more convincing is needed, the future internet infrastructure will probably be more than adequate to convince the enthusiast.
Nintendo, and every other participant, will have to put a lot of thought on how they will deliver their content, because there may be quite a few technological and commercial shifts in the near future.
 
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The Switch card reader is only built for transfer speeds of up to 50MB/s, but the interface on the cards themselves is also only built for transfer speeds of up to 50MB/s.
Man, reading this number in this day and age with all the GB/s numbers thrown around reminds me of Floppy Disk days ๐Ÿ˜…
 
if i may ask, aside from gamescom & tgs, what other gaming events where many companies & devs attends that nintendo could also make use of to show tech demos privately?
I'm not the right person to ask.
I'm hopeful others will have answers.

Found this in google. Looks like decent list to me.
YAY!

EDIT:
Isn't there a significant event in Brazil really soon?
I believe @necrolipe mentioned it, teasing that some contacts may happen.
 
One more note about mobile gaming that I haven't seen mentioned. iPhone doesn't have expandable storage. Since phones can do anythings, games will have to compete with files, movies and musics for storage. If there's no space, I'll have to delete everything and download them again if I need to later. I know plenty of Android phones have SD card slot but they are going to be too slow for gaming. You also can't download games to your SD card either last time I check.
 
You're right that it's good to be cautious but it feels like a completely different arena of competition between the handheld PCs with each other vs. themselves with Nintendo hardware, for one thing there isn't much a handheld PC can do that a decent notebook or laptop already can't, and they don't have the foundation of a dozen iconic and universally renowned franchises to build on

Personally speaking anyway, a Switch is far more appealing than an Ally, Deck, Neo or a Legion because it's the only one of those offering something unique this nifty little Asus can't do

Until somebody like Sega come out with a unique handheld with exclusive offerings like SMT and Persona, Sonic, Bayonetta, Monkey Ball, Miku etc. there'd be no need to be concerned beyond a cursory market checkover, no idea what the situation with Apple and phone games could be though, but seeing 'Raid: Shadow Legends!' blabbed about all over YouTube constantly by people that clearly never intend to play it is enough to steer clear of mobile gaming altogether

Just commenting on the bolded - thereโ€™s a reason why weโ€™re seeing interest in the Ally and Deck despite the existence of Gaming Laptops - form factor, and capability in that form.

Anecdotally I know 3-4 people either considering or having bought one of these devices, who never once purchased a gaming Laptop. One has converted entirely from Switch to Ally due to convenience of having his Steam library (and Steam prices) along with GamePass. These products are only going to become more and more accessible, and the competition is going to ensure that some stellar products will rise to the top.

You might find Switch more appealing, but thatโ€™s hardly universal.
 
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It's the 13th now in Ireland which means the Direct announcement is only 13 hours away!

Just for the craic, should we weigh in on the likelihood of an NG Switch confirmation or an October 'join us for a very special event' message at the end of it?


(Team Spicy)
Yes:

(Team Sweet)
Maybe:

  • Jafin
  • Concernt
  • Meself
(Team Sour)
No Chance:

  • Giancarlo
 
While I do think Apple could eventually make a huge push into the console market eventually, I do not see them anymore of a threat then Microsoft or Sony. So far there is no real indication Apple is interested in fully embracing gaming outside of their phone products (and more limited uses with Apple TV and VR stuff).

In my opinion the big reason to own a Nintendo system is because of Nintendo's top tier first party software. For me personally, Nintendo basically creates magic with their games and these titles will not be available on Apple's products (not including the tiny amount of Nintendo mobile games or emulation stuff).

If I was Nintendo, I wouldn't be concerned with what Apple is doing and I'm not seeing any immediate rush from Apple to get into console gaming. Mostly just expanding their phone offerings. I don't see many people skipping Switch 2 in favor of iPhone gaming and I suspect many Apple users are still just as excited for the Switch successor as we on here are.

The Switch successor looks like it's going to be a massive leap forward for Nintendo developers to cook with and seeing the magic they got out of the Switch has convinced me we are all going to be in awe once we really get into the Switch 2 lifecycle. Nintendo is going to deliver once we get pass that crossgen cycle. My imagination is already going wild...

Let's all be excited that the Switch successor is looking like a bigger upgrade then many of us were expecting and may be available as early as March of next year potential. Honestly the future for us Nintendo fans is looking very bright indeed. :)
 
$350+ NSW2 with Mario and friends and 3rd party, vs $1000+ phone with 3rd party. Which is more competitive a dedicated gaming system, or an all rounder smart phone? Feels like the same discussion I've seen back in 2018.
 
It's the 13th now in Ireland which means the Direct announcement is only 13 hours away!

Just for the craic, should we weigh in on the likelihood of an NG Switch confirmation or an October 'join us for a very special event' message at the end of it?


Yes:


Maybe:

- Meself

No Chance:
My brain says no chance, but my heart hopes for yes. I think they meet in the middle at maybe.
But I know it's not gonna happen, realistically.
 
A17 is a neat chip. Apple could potentially be a player in the console space.

But if they wanted to do that, it would be more cost efficient to buy Ubisoft than to moneyhat AC:M
 
It's the 13th now in Ireland which means the Direct announcement is only 13 hours away!

Just for the craic, should we weigh in on the likelihood of an NG Switch confirmation or an October 'join us for a very special event' message at the end of it?


Yes:


Maybe:

- Meself

No Chance:
Sometimes I wonder if Hiberno-English should even be considered English at all.

I give the likelihood a "maybe". This isn't the Nintendo of 2016 that would do anything EXCEPT reveal it in a Direct. Nor is us the Nintendo of 2014 that did a hardware blowout IN a Direct.

I will say though- if this Direct is labelled "Nintendo Switch", the chances are low, and if it's "Focussing exclusively on Nintendo Switch software releasing from now until X date.", it's obviously zero.

However, they could have a Direct one hour and a reveal the next in seperate announcements, so I'm not discounting Thursday even if the Direct is a bust.
 
EDIT:
Isn't there a significant event in Brazil really soon?
I believe necrolipe mentioned it, teasing that some contacts may happen.
Yeah, Brazil Game Show, and Nintendo's attendence seems to be their biggest yet, I remember him saying the Nintendo area is around 1000mยฒ or something, so there seem to be space there for a private room for a NGS presentation on a big 4K TV and all that, but idk, why Nintendo would show BRAZILIAN devs their hardware ONE YEAR before it's release and expect it to not leak immediately or something? Our game dev scene is more indie-focused, only ""big"" studio in the grand scheme of things is Horizon Chase devs who were recently acquired by Epic Games, (I'm not a game developer but) I think indie games are easier to port to a variety of platforms thanks to their engine and simplicity. Maybe they're gonna show it to like Xbox, Ubisoft, etc representatives, idk.
 
Question about DLSS and battery life, because I know exactly zero about power draw etc. Let's say for example the Switch 2 has a 1080p screen, would it draw less power to render the game natively at 540p and then upscale it with DLSS wizardry to 1080p, or would it be better off just rendering the game natively at 1080p?
 
Question about DLSS and battery life, because I know exactly zero about power draw etc. Let's say for example the Switch 2 has a 1080p screen, would it draw less power to render the game natively at 540p and then upscale it with DLSS wizardry to 1080p, or would it be better off just rendering the game natively at 1080p?
The former
 
Question about DLSS and battery life, because I know exactly zero about power draw etc. Let's say for example the Switch 2 has a 1080p screen, would it draw less power to render the game natively at 540p and then upscale it with DLSS wizardry to 1080p, or would it be better off just rendering the game natively at 1080p?
it would use less power doing the former
 
Sony is the one who's gonna be hit hardest with this.

Xbox has Gamepass, an unbeatable value that just gives you all their exclusives and you're free to buy AAA third party games on the side, and Nintendo will be fine with their suite of exclusives.

Sony has exlusives, but fewer and farther between. 1-2 a year maybe that people consider must buys, but now if you can get those third partys on your Phone or Switch 2, then that's a huge hit for reasons to get a PS5.
I feel like the PS5 has done well enough without too many reasons to justify buying one. I'd also consider Sony's lack of consistent exclusives independent from the iPhone 15 Pro's potential success; then again...... they were fighting hard to keep Microsoft from acquiring ABK, the publisher of Call of Duty, so you may have a point about third-party support being more spread out.
 
Apple is not ending anything. Do some of you read the nonsense you type?
Apple and gaming consoles have existed together for a long time now. If anything, consoles are doing much better now than ever before.

Sony is the one who's gonna be hit hardest with this.

Xbox has Gamepass, an unbeatable value that just gives you all their exclusives and you're free to buy AAA third party games on the side, and Nintendo will be fine with their suite of exclusives.

Sony has exlusives, but fewer and farther between. 1-2 a year maybe that people consider must buys, but now if you can get those third partys on your Phone or Switch 2, then that's a huge hit for reasons to get a PS5.
meme-23159--wat.jpg


Just no.

dude-stop-saturday-night-live.gif
 
Yeah, Brazil Game Show, and Nintendo's attendence seems to be their biggest yet, I remember him saying the Nintendo area is around 1000mยฒ or something, so there seem to be space there for a private room for a NGS presentation on a big 4K TV and all that, but idk, why Nintendo would show BRAZILIAN devs their hardware ONE YEAR before it's release and expect it to not leak immediately or something? Our game dev scene is more indie-focused, only ""big"" studio in the grand scheme of things is Horizon Chase devs who were recently acquired by Epic Games, (I'm not a game developer but) I think indie games are easier to port to a variety of platforms thanks to their engine and simplicity. Maybe they're gonna show it to like Xbox, Ubisoft, etc representatives, idk.
Exactly, Oct 11-15.

It seems like a big venue. I believe Xbox has a big presence there too.

I don't think it's only "brazilian devs". Just like Gamescom, Pax West/East and others, they mostly attract devs from their continents, but also have high representatives from most big companies.

There are gaming conventions almost every week. Very few in a year are relevant to this thread. Brazil Game Show seems like a good candidate, specially for being the most prominent in South America.
 
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Sony is the one who's gonna be hit hardest with this.

Xbox has Gamepass, an unbeatable value that just gives you all their exclusives and you're free to buy AAA third party games on the side, and Nintendo will be fine with their suite of exclusives.

Sony has exlusives, but fewer and farther between. 1-2 a year maybe that people consider must buys, but now if you can get those third partys on your Phone or Switch 2, then that's a huge hit for reasons to get a PS5.
Apple is not ending anything. Do some of you read the nonsense you type?
Apple and gaming consoles have existed together for a long time now. If anything, consoles are doing much better now than ever before.


meme-23159--wat.jpg


Just no.

dude-stop-saturday-night-live.gif
I kinda agree.

PS definitely has great games. If you're ONLY into over-the-shoulder-camera cinematic gaming twice a year, go for it. It also has a few 3rd-parties which you pay full price for.

In terms of ecosystem value, Nintendo, with their very diversified output and great indie ecosystem, and Xbox with Game Pass which is unparalleled in value and diversity, are just a few steps above, IMO.

Switch/Game Pass is best combination I ever had, and I tried them all.
 
This has been a real head scratcher for me. Nintendo patented their reconstruction technique back in 2020, Xenoblade Chronicles 3 implemented it reconstructing 540p up to 1080p with impressive results. The only thing I will say about this implementation is it resolves in a softer image than your typical 1080p resolve, but all in all it was solid and certainly much better than FSR 1.0. I was dead certain that Zelda TotK would use it, and I still feel like it should have. They could have rendered at 720p instead of 900p and then reconstructed up to 1080p. Most of the framerate hitches are caused by memory bandwidth limitations, so the lower rendering resolution should have cleaned up those drops. Seeing as how Monolithsoft is very hands on with Zelda development, seems like something that would have been possible to implement. I would assume they have their reasons, but I would be damn curious to know what those reasons are, because I Zelda TotK art style would have played nice with a softer image of higher resolution.
The level of investment is very different between integrating FSR1 and integrating temporal reconstruction. The choice between the options was not trivial.
 
Xbox with Game Pass which is unparalleled in value and diversity

This isn't really the place to talk about Sony/Xbox, and I know this isn't a popular take, but Gamepass is not here to stay. It has a ton of hurdles to overcome before it is truly profitable, hurdles that I don't think it can overcome. And that is on top of the subscription bubble that is going to pop eventually, which will hit gamepass hard.

I also think it is strange the concern here is for Sony when the PS5 is selling much, much more than Xbox Series, and PS5 is ahead of PS4 sales, but Xbox Series is behind the Xbone.

I don't really think any of them need to worry about Apple, for a lot of different reasons. But if any of them do, it certainly isn't Sony.
 
It has a ton of hurdles to overcome before it is truly profitable
Microsoft claims it is profitable. Not that it's VERY profitable, but they're getting more out of it than they're putting in. The money from Game Pass isn't JUST Game Pass- it's that Game Pass boosts sales, in game purchases and DLC purchases too. It also draws people to Xbox or to the Xbox App on PC, and then they have an ecosystem advantage. Game Pass doesn't exist in a vacuum, it's one piece of a large Xbox ecosystem.
 
...wait, do you all not want consoles to die?
I legit don't know if this is a bit or not lol

I guess a theoretical electronic device that just plays every game and also happens to be a device I own anyway for utility reasons would be convenient.

However, I'm very much a guy who likes having tools tailor made to the task at hand to avoid trade-offs (kinda ironic given the Switch's whole ethos, but whatever). Things ideal for gaming hardware - especially portable gaming hardware - is often in direct contradiction to what I want in other hardware. I'm someone who got an LTE smartwatch almost purely because I don't like how large phones have gotten and I want to be able to carry mine around less. But with games, I really value performance, and size makes a big difference there.

I also, just for mental reasons, like the separation of dedicated gaming hardware. Pulling out the Switch signals to my brain that I can put everything else out of mind for a while. It changes the vibe a bit.

So if you're asking if I'm a fan of how consoles segment everything with lots of exclusives that you need to either choose between or just fork money over for, no. But the rest of it, I actually dig, yeah.
 
...wait, do you all not want consoles to die?
I don't.

The death of consoles means that all that is left is a "standardized" ecosystem that will fossilize.
Steam seems like the closest to it, tied to a single Windows API with a single monetization to a single pocket.

Consoles allow for diversity, allows for investment in new areas and risks to be taken in new APIs and new technologies, allows for games to be optimized for a single target hardware with huge benefits for the consumer.

If Steam/Windows gaming were the monopoly, all governments would seek to break it.
 
I want all hardware expect the Switch to die. Just imagine a world were you can only have 300 friends max online and you have to communicate with them through drawings in Splatoon or by telling in Mariokart if you are using tilt controls. We would live in a perfect world.
 
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...wait, do you all not want consoles to die?
Convince Valve to implement some kind of 'docked/mobile' settings tweak that developers can hook into instead of the current jank method of manually adjusting display devices and graphics settings, and I might consider it. I have no interest in writing command line args and bash scripts just to do what the Switch is purpose-built for and all its games comply with.
 
Just commenting on the bolded - thereโ€™s a reason why weโ€™re seeing interest in the Ally and Deck despite the existence of Gaming Laptops - form factor, and capability in that form.

Anecdotally I know 3-4 people either considering or having bought one of these devices, who never once purchased a gaming Laptop. One has converted entirely from Switch to Ally due to convenience of having his Steam library (and Steam prices) along with GamePass. These products are only going to become more and more accessible, and the competition is going to ensure that some stellar products will rise to the top.

You might find Switch more appealing, but thatโ€™s hardly universal.
unless these companies give actually numbers theses are just ancedotes though. Switch sells around what 60-70k a week in Japan atm. The queston is if these PC handhelds can do that or are they just stuck with hardcore enthusiats
 
Apple is not ending anything. Do some of you read the nonsense you type?
Apple and gaming consoles have existed together for a long time now. If anything, consoles are doing much better now than ever before.


meme-23159--wat.jpg


Just no.

dude-stop-saturday-night-live.gif
It's more than a computer company.
It's a way of life.

Just wait 10 years, they can do the Pippin right this time.
 
That is my exact point. Apple isnโ€™t making that play, so it doesnโ€™t matter how good the chip is.

Imagine a game console without a single first party title.

Not doing something today does not mean you won't do it tomorrow. The very fact these kind of companies demand infinite growth pretty much guarantees no bets are off (especially when they are already operating in an adjacent market and a crossover would be fairly easy for them). In fact them moving into VR also gives them yet another adjacent market lol. At this point they are doing pretty much everything besides releasing a console.

And no first party software? A lot of people are up for sale - especially when those with open, limitless wallets come calling
 
Microsoft claims it is profitable. Not that it's VERY profitable, but they're getting more out of it than they're putting in. The money from Game Pass isn't JUST Game Pass- it's that Game Pass boosts sales, in game purchases and DLC purchases too. It also draws people to Xbox or to the Xbox App on PC, and then they have an ecosystem advantage. Game Pass doesn't exist in a vacuum, it's one piece of a large Xbox ecosystem.

Yes, but for something like Gamepass actual profitability isn't, and shouldn't, be measured by the standard "how much does it make vs how much does it cost". Actual profitability would be Microsoft making more money from Gamepass than they would have just releasing these games normally.

To use a recent release as an example; would Microsoft have made more money by releasing Starfield as a standard game than they did from Gamepass subscriptions?

And you have to do that math for every single game they put on Gamepass. The next Elder Scrolls, Call of Duty, Everwild, Fable, etc. There is no way Gamepass subscriptions would even come close to covering what those games would make if they launched normally.

I'm sure that, despite what they say publicly, Microsoft is thinking about Gamepass in this way. And if they aren't, that would be pretty dumb on their part.
 
Please read this new, consolidated staff post before posting.

Furthermore, according to this follow-up post, all off-topic chat will be moderated.
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