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StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (New Staff Post, Please read)

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YolkFolk said:
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25fps for PAL regions… Sunshine being rushed stole us from the best 3D Mario ever, imagine Sunshine running at 60fps and w/o all it bullshit…
 
Ok, so based on the latest rumors and what I read here, it is "safe" to asume that the switch will be BC, have more power with software and hardware tricks to do more power lift, and gamecube and wii will be added to the NSO... got it thanks!
 
AR15mex said:
Ok, so based on the latest rumors and what I read here, it is "safe" to asume that the switch will be BC, have more power with software and hardware tricks to do more power lift, and gamecube and wii will be added to the NSO... got it thanks!
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Uh no, nothing about NSO has been leaked or rumored. I'd be absolutely shocked if they added GameCube or Wii games come to NSO ever, they're remastering or remaking the standouts from those gens.
 
Lancelot said:
Are you considering docked mode in there? Because I did for this one.
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Yes.

KeijiKG said:
Be as it may, ARM and x86 still have performance gaps so that's to be expected.

Best frame of reference comes from Jetson Orin kits and to a lesser extent, other A78 powered devices. In the end, it'll still be a whole lot better than the A57 in the Switch.
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While it's the most accurate, it might also be the least useful for folks trying to figure out what their games will look like, since its hardware without any games ;) Not directly replying to you here, I'm going to use this as a springboard about something.
Alovon11 said:
I would rather ere on it being closer or maybe even trading blows with Series S...assuming the game isn't CPU bound.
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You can ere wherever you like! No judgement. :) But also it's about how do we communicate that to a novice, who can't look at a screen to tell the difference between a GPU and a CPU bound game.

Just because a game isn't CPU bound doesn't mean the CPU won't matter. Increasing the length of time you spend on the CPU will reduce frametime available to the GPU - the GPU might be perfectly adequate, but you still need to cut effects to maintain framerate.

Alovon11 said:
Looking at the RTX 3050M (The closest comparison to T239 @ Thraktor's Clocks once accounting for overhead on the part of the 3050M and optimization+Way more cache on the part of T239) vs the 6500M (Closest same-architecture comparison to Series S, Infinity Cache offsetting the 4 fewer CUs by a bit), the two are very comparable, trading blows very often, even without using DLSS or RT Comparisons.
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Those two cards are within 10% of each other in theoretical perf. Just because they're comparable, doesn't mean two devices with a 25% perf gap are going to be comparable.

That said, I can't imagine a good benchmark for laptop GPUs that isolates the rest of the system, and only measures the GPU performance, so I don't know how useful that comparison is anyway.

Alovon11 said:
And then add in the rumors going around about how Switch 2 may have more RAM in general than Series S (Would make sense as RAM Prices have crashed hard recently), It likely will only be CPU-Bound Scenarios where Series S would have a major edge considering Ampere Mixed Precision can help offset FLOP deficit a bit, and then DLSS furthers that by offloading upscaling from the shader cores onto the Tensor Cores.
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And we come back to what I originally said, which is taking advantage of various specific features (like DLSS or mixed precision) in order to get comparable - or better! - experiences.
 
ILikeFeet said:
I know. but the game is doing exceptionally well in its digital only form, which is where I think the majority of its sales will come from. the need for physical has been diminished for western studios. while Nintendo systems are the hold out, I don't think it'll be for long. Drake might be that turn of the tide for western companies. if they really need physical, a code in the box or a license key on a game card would be the go-to option


it is close in the sense that there might not be that big of an IQ difference. but asset changes and frame rate changes would still be on the table
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that is quite different from affirming that there is no physical version. In the case of RDR1, the fact that they release the physical version later is due to its nature as a shadowdrop game.
 
Skittzo said:
I think Oldpuck was trying to say that it won't be "easily" or "instantly" capable of any Series S level game, rather it will take a lot of special optimizations and work to get a game from this gen running well.

After which yeah it might wind up being DLSS'd to a better or similar resolution. I'm guessing overall CPU capability will be the main issue with ports from current gen but it should be a much lower gap than we saw with Switch 1 and last gen.
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NateDrake said:
Right, and I'd agree on that assessment.
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on the CPU front, i think it also assumes games are rigidly designed and maxing out the CPU. I suspect some games would, espercially exclusives unbounded by multiplatform considerations.

An 8 core (assuming rumors are correct) A78 clocked decently would be very comprarable to a lot of i5 PC gaming setups, so i suspect many games would have CPU utilizaiton well in range of what the Switch 2 could handle, and those that aren't could be optimized to do so.

I'm still amazed how many PC ports made it to Switch.
 
Not to err on the side of being a pedant but seeing multiple people spell it "ere" I had to Google it to make sure I wasn't going crazy.

It is indeed "err on the side of caution" since "err" means to make an error, and the phrase means "if I'm gonna be wrong I want to be wrong safely" more or less.
 
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carbvan said:
How would you play it on the TV though? My propsition: Have the Switch 2 be a backwards Wii U. Hardware is in the tablet which is fully portable. It can play docked or it can stream video to the dock for asynchronous or 2 screen play. Bring back the 2 screens Nintendo!
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now they can make nintendo land deluxe, nintendo's greatest masterpiece
 
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Yes,
carbvan said:
How would you play it on the TV though? My propsition: Have the Switch 2 be a backwards Wii U. Hardware is in the tablet which is fully portable. It can play docked or it can stream video to the dock for asynchronous or 2 screen play. Bring back the 2 screens Nintendo!
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I Hope they bring this back, while I know it maybe frowned upon by Nintendo, I think they can add it without too much fanfare, or marketing. Like the IR camera, or the HD rumble...
 
SoldierDelta said:
Starting to realise how dumb my comment was.

I still stand on the hill that I think it's weird that some games double, triple or whatever-the-hell-a-nine-uple-is the actual size of their game on PC compared to consoles and especially the Switch. I'm just hoping that any streamlined way to compress Switch 2 games is used well. I don't want 50% of the base-console storage size to be taken up by that year's Call of Duty title.
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For something like Call of Duty, in addition to loads of asset duplication for play on HDD-equipped devices, isn't one of the culprits how a person must download all the audio? Like you're not allowed to just select whichever languages you want?
Skittzo said:
Get ready for Wave Trace 64
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(the 64 is for the number of participants in a race)
 
Nate seems quite optimistic which means the info he has heard from his contacts is quite optimistic. His contacts are likely devs so regardless of how it compares on paper to other systems people are really fkn optimistic about this thing. If devs are happy that's kind've the best sign ever, even compared to a spec sheet imo.



e. not to say that I don't appreciate everyones clock estimations, graphs etc.., I read everything. I may not understand it all but I learn a lot and hearing everyone talk about the potential this thing has gets my imagination going. glad to have so many smart people in this thread :)
 
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eye0h said:
Nate seems quite optimistic which means the info he has heard from his contacts is quite optimistic. His contacts are likely devs so regardless of how it compares on paper to other systems people are really fkn optimistic about this thing. If devs are happy that's kind've the best sign ever, even compared to a spec sheet imo.
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Absolutely. If it's gonna translate into solid third-party support, then we really have something to look forward to. I'm very optimistic about it.
 
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eye0h said:
Nate seems quite optimistic which means the info he has heard from his contacts is quite optimistic. His contacts are likely devs so regardless of how it compares on paper to other systems people are really fkn optimistic about this thing. If devs are happy that's kind've the best sign ever, even compared to a spec sheet imo.
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Yeah I don’t give a crap about Nintendo’s past hardware decisions. If Nate seems optimistic had delightful that’s good for this system.
 
Saturnman789 said:
now they can make nintendo land deluxe, nintendo's greatest masterpiece
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unironcally yes. my gamepad got destroyed awhile ago and i had to pay a good bit to get it repaired. i dont use the wii u for practically anything nowadays but nintendo land and it was so worth it.
 
LemonLime said:
Genuinely think this is a great idea. Would be very wonderswan like.

This would be incredible for vertical shoot em ups as well!
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carbvan said:
How would you play it on the TV though? My propsition: Have the Switch 2 be a backwards Wii U. Hardware is in the tablet which is fully portable. It can play docked or it can stream video to the dock for asynchronous or 2 screen play. Bring back the 2 screens Nintendo!
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Wii U already offered vertical support for DS games, so it's not out of the question for DS/3DS NSO. I just don't expect them to make a grip for it since it's too niche
 
What modern games would you say are CPU limited? Last time I checked, the modern games that are CPU limited seem to suffer from poor core utilisation or are PS5 ports that spend a lot of resources with shader compiling and asset loading and decompression.
 
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oldpuck said:
You can ere wherever you like! No judgement. :) But also it's about how do we communicate that to a novice, who can't look at a screen to tell the difference between a GPU and a CPU bound game.

Just because a game isn't CPU bound doesn't mean the CPU won't matter. Increasing the length of time you spend on the CPU will reduce frametime available to the GPU - the GPU might be perfectly adequate, but you still need to cut effects to maintain framerate.
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Yes, and that is where things like A78C's bigger cache, the existence of a SysLC, and lower latency LPDDR may help sway things. Not nessecarily to the extent of overcoming the bottleneck, but it may mitigate it.

As for how it's final result would be, it likely will be case by case, heck, I wouldn't be surprised if a game that is more Cache/Memory Bound on the CPU may take more friendly to T239 because it doesn't have a gimped Memory IC like the Zen Consoles. But if a game needs sheer single threaded performance, it would most likely lean towards the Zen Systems.
oldpuck said:
Those two cards are within 10% of each other in theoretical perf. Just because they're comparable, doesn't mean two devices with a 25% perf gap are going to be comparable.

That said, I can't imagine a good benchmark for laptop GPUs that isolates the rest of the system, and only measures the GPU performance, so I don't know how useful that comparison is anyway.
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Well we don't know the exact difference between the two, can't compare FLOPs to FLOPs and all.

I'm calling 3050M the most similar despite T239 being only 3.3TFLOPs docked in Thraktor's calculations due to how much overhead there is on Windows and even NVIDIA's own drivers. Not to mention, T239 will have more memory flexibility as the 3050M, 6500M, and Series S all run into memory limits quickly. T239 has far more cache than all of them, and 10-14MB could be accessed by the GPU depending on how they fit the System Level Cache.

oldpuck said:
And we come back to what I originally said, which is taking advantage of various specific features (like DLSS or mixed precision) in order to get comparable - or better! - experiences.
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And that's the main thing, Mixed Precision became sort of a best practices thing on Switch after a bit, so I feel that would stay the same with Switch 2. So under that calculation it would roughly be 5 TFLOPs of Mixed Precision to leave room for DLSS on the Tensor Cores.

Especially if NVIDIA/Nintendo apply features in NVN2 to make Mixed Precision rendering more easily attainable to some degree of utilization
 
ILikeFeet said:
Wii U already offered vertical support for DS games, so it's not out of the question for DS/3DS NSO. I just don't expect them to make a grip for it since it's too niche
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If they could somehow engineer a way for it to work without a grip/accessory but also still support horizontal play and have it be elegant, then that might actually be enough to satisfy my craving for a new gimmick. Maybe…
 
oldpuck said:
I don't wanna yuck anyone's yum - but a Series S level of performance is likely impossible.

Speculate all you want, I just don't want a sort of "spec inflation" to happen where at some point the wildly optimistic becomes the default, and a new wildly optimistic emerges beyond that.
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Monolith Soft are gonna make ps6 quality games on this thing I just know it.
 
TheRealWario said:
Microsoft made the 30fps sacrifice for Starfield. If a dev is really stretching the scope of their project, its always an option.
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30FPS wasn't a sacrifice for Starfield, it's just how it is. Bethesda RPGs on console target 30FPS and have done so for a very, very long time.

Bayonetta isn't an open world RPG with everything working within a functioning, persistent physics engine. Starfield loses very little from 30FPS. Bayonetta is a spectacle fighter. It doesn't have to worry about every single coin having perfect physics - every collectable just floats off the ground and immediately zooms towards Cereza (or Viola, or Jeanne, etc.).

Bayonetta benefits from 60FPS, hugely. It's a less complex game than Starfield with completely different gameplay and a much less CPU intensive world.

Unless they, for some reason or another, integrate immersive sim elements into Bayonetta 4, 30FPS really shouldn't be considered by anyone, especially not the dev team.

I will note that Bayonetta 3 will move its cap to 30 if the setpieces on screen are big enough to justify it, but there's a reason they didn't cap it at that for moment to moment combat. RPGs don't feel substantially worse at a lower framerate. Hack and slashers absolutely do.
 
SoldierDelta said:
Starting to realise how dumb my comment was.

I still stand on the hill that I think it's weird that some games double, triple or whatever-the-hell-a-nine-uple-is the actual size of their game on PC compared to consoles and especially the Switch. I'm just hoping that any streamlined way to compress Switch 2 games is used well. I don't want 50% of the base-console storage size to be taken up by that year's Call of Duty title.
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I don't think your comment was stupid.

But I will say it's not just about compression.
PC games have to have multiple textures with various levels of quality to accommodate the different types of hardware power people might have.

And on CD games, there are TONS of repeated assests to make easier for the disc reader to find the data.

And the reason why a lot of ports are so bloated in size is because the devs usually don't take the time to organize and customize the data so it works better for a cartridge.
 
TechnicalTip6578 said:
may i ask something speculative regarding TGS?

nintendo is participating there however in compared to Gamescom it's far more private & more business focused so obviously that'd mean they'd give dev kits/showcase the console to partners but the thing here i noticed is that the companies participating most likely own a dev kit at this point

these are the participants for the record:
  • Arc System Works
  • Bandai Namco
  • Capcom
  • Hamster
  • Inti Creates
  • Koei Tecmo
  • Konami
  • Level-5
  • Microsoft Japan
  • SEGA/Atlus
  • Square Enix
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There are a lot, lot, lot more companies going to TGS and many of them are developers who are far smaller than the ones you listed, there are also developers who go to TGS even without exhibiting, it is still an industry event first and foremost (as evident by the business solutions section which is normally somewhat sizable).
 
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TheRealWario said:
It could be :)
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I value a high frame rate in a hack and slash over halos having realistic physics. I think the developers have much the same intuition about what makes Bayonetta fun. It's the combat.

A more immersive, open Bayonetta world would be incredible, but be real, you summon giant demonic spiders from your ponytail in these games, immersion and realism isn't what they're going for.
 
Concernt said:
I value a high frame rate in a hack and slash over halos having realistic physics. I think the developers have much the same intuition about what makes Bayonetta fun. It's the combat.

A more immersive, open Bayonetta world would be incredible, but be real, you summon giant demonic spiders from your ponytail in these games, immersion and realism isn't what they're going for.
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The initial idea for Bayonetta 3 was actually to have it be open world, but with the Switch limitations they decided to just take a lot of the areas in the open world map they had made up to that point and cut them up into levels. I haven't played the game myself but I've seen some players say that you can even kinda see in the game which areas were meant to be in the open world by looking off in the disrance and seeing much more map that you cant visit
 
Looks like a ton of thread movement since I took a small break for a few days. Are people thinking the flood gates are about to open soon or is it just a wave of excitement/optimism? I may have missed something as I skipped around on the pages I missed.
 
NinZer0 said:
Looks like a ton of thread movement since I took a small break for a few days. Are people thinking the flood gates are about to open soon or is it just a wave of excitement/optimism? I may have missed something as I skipped around on the pages I missed.
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The entire first year lineup was leaked. We even know what SquareEnix's president thinks while he's in the can.
 
A thing I've been trying to communicate for a while, this seems like a good moment.

Stop trying to compare the Switch NG's power to other consoles, you will make yourself dizzy.

Gamers like to power rank things, tech nerds like to compare technologies, it's all understandable. And for the most part, they're not wrong! If you weren't busy being a fanwanker, you could pretty easily see at launch that the PS4 was going to be a better console, graphically, than the Xbox One. But here is the dirty secret - that's because, within a generation, GPUs are basically the same design.

The N64, the GameCube, the Wii, the Wii - all had GPU's designed by the same team. You know what other GPUs they designed? The Xbox 360, the PS4, the Xbox One, the PS5, the Xbox Series - in the 21st century, the same team has designed every GPU in every major console, save 3.

Is it surprising that these devices have been easy to compare? But it's not just that, Nvidia and AMD heavily influence each other on their designs. The GPU in the Switch shares a lot in common with the GPU in the PS4, despite them coming from different companies.

Nvidia has changed the game. DLSS and RT both fundamentally alter how pixels get to screen. And while AMD has answers for both technologies it hasn't built the hardware around them. When we talk about raw power we're no longer talking about what Nvidia is actually bringing to the table.

On the other hand, trying to talk about Nvidia's new tech is difficult, because folks still want to cram it into the same box as the raw power. We get things like "effective FLOPS" or Nvidia's own "RT FLOPS" which are nonsensical.

Because Nvidia has changed the way pixels get on the screen, you can get huge leaps in some places, and tiny leaps - or even back steps - in others. If you try to take Nvidia's new tech, and the say it turns the Switch 2 into a PS4 Pro you are both wildly overselling and underselling what the thing can do at the same time. A motorcycle is not a freight truck is not a sports car, and trying to whittle it all down to a MPH number is missing the plot.

This is why I talk about the experiences you'll get instead of the console's power.
 
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