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StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (New Staff Post, Please read)

Reader mode
Giancarlo said:
eesh this a lot of work just to play Super Mario Odyssey on the Switch sucessor, Nintendo might dont want to do such hurdle, buy Bayonetta 3 4K or Pikimin 4 4K to play in the Switch sucessor
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They kinda have to, if they want their transition to be as smooth as possible. Besides, one can argue that remastering all of those games would be more expensive.
 
fwd-bwd said:
It seems to me that the VGC report did not distinguish their sources’ info from their speculations.


How could a 3rd party developer know the display type of the retail product from a dev kit? Sure, the dev kit may be shipped with an LCD panel, but that isn’t a indicator of the final product. It sounds to me that VGC’s sources read Bloomberg’s speculation of a Sharp LCD panel. Even less credible is a 3rd party dev knowing Nintendo’s rationale of this alleged LCD display (saving money for a larger storage).


Again, how could a 3rd party dev know this? It’s not credible that Nintendo would share its launch logistical strategy with them. VGC’s sources probably base their speculation on the Furukawa comment regarding sufficient supply to counter scalping.

VGC needs to do a better job of separating facts and opinions. On a related note, Nintendo’s next earning call is coming up on August 3. This topic surely will come up in the Q&A session. [rubbing hands in anticipation]
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Who said their source on display type was a developer? They don't make that distinction.
 
fwd-bwd said:
It seems to me that the VGC report did not distinguish their sources’ info from their speculations.
Click to expand...
The follow up video is a little clearer on what came from sources, as opposed to Andy's speculation. That doesn't necessarily make it accurate, but he at least flags "told this, told that"
 
0
Sorry for this long post but some things I just want to get off my chest.

Thinking like a business instead of a consumer.
I think one of the main issues with online gaming forums is that people like to take their wants and desires and apply them to their predictions about what a company will do. You have to remember you are the consumer, so you want as much out of Nintendo as possible while Nintendo is the business and wants to provide as little value as possible that still gets you to spend. I don't want to make Nintendo sound cynical but they are still a business with a set limit of resources (cash & workforce) and want to spend as little as possible while still making as much as possible (profit). So if you want to accurately predict what this company will do, take off the consumer cap and put on your business cap. Think like a business instead of a consumer.

Switch's launch period.
Now remember think like a business. There have been obvious signs pointing to a holiday 2024 but people refuse to believe this because they are stuck in the mindset of "I want this now" instead of what makes sense for the business. Maybe, alot of people on this site don't even follow sales so it becomes difficult to know when launching a successor makes sense.

Holiday 2023 should have recieved its final nail in the coffin in 2022 when Nintendo annouced Zelda ToTK releasing in May 2023. There was a post showing how rare launching consoles between April and September (outside the first quarter and last quarter of the calendar year) and keeping that in mind that Nintendo is notorious for aligning Zelda as a launch game. This all should have sealed the fate for Switch's successor in holiday 2023 because Zelda would have been delayed to match it. Zelda was aligned to launch with Wii despite being a Gamecube annouced game and even released on Gamecube after Wii's release lol. Zelda BoTW was annouced for WiiU and was delayed enough to coincide with Switdh lol, clearly Nintendo understands Zelda games come every blue moon, so missing their lauch is certainly not ideal. They would rather delay and align to take advantage of Zelda's iniatial hype and excitement because that's what a new console launch needs. Some people even resorted to hoping it comes alongside ToTK. Basically Nintendo was going to launch a new console, new block buster movie, and push Zelda in the first 5 months of the year? No, there is no reason to blow that much money in ads all at one time while also throwing away the Switch's final year. Switch is still selling enough hardware and espicially software to just kill it for a successor.

Early 2024, received it's final nail in its coffin when Nintendo annouced (May 2023, in their annual report) they were aiming for 15 million sold this fiscal year ending March 2024. 15 million in its 7th fiscal year is the highest if im not mistaken in all of history. The PS2's was 14 million I believe. Even the mighty DS sold 5 million in its 7th fiscal year. I don't believe any console in history has ever not been affected by the annoucement and introduction of it's successor. Why would Switch be any different? Nintendo annoucing and releasing anytime before April 2024 makes Switch's 15 million prediction impossible. So then either Nintendo lied about thier Switch prediction for this fiscal year, or you believe it will be release April 2024 or later, or Nintendo are complete idiots and really thought Switch 2 in March 2024 would have no affect on Switch's fiscal year sales ending March 2024. This is why early 2024 is dead because Nintendo isn't dumb enough to think Switch 2 annouced in 2023 and released in early 2024 wouldn't affect Switch and it's current goals. Nintendo also isn't going to make a goal they know damn well they couldn't pull off. 15 million is roughly the exact same sales as Switch's first year and roughly the peak year of Xbox global sales, Switch simply isn't selling that much in a year without getting Nintendo's undivided attention.

Switch successor launch
This leads me to my next point, this fake concern for Switch's launch. Launching in Holiday 2024 is the soluction to all of this. Nintendo wants 3rd party support, the Switch's launch was atrocious and had to be single handled carried by a single piece of software (Zelda BoTW) and then Nintendo releases another large system seller in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe because it needed all the software it could get. Nintendo doesn't want a repeat of that, launching when 3rd parties have no games ready is foolish. They companies aim for 4th quarter launches also because that's when 3rd parties have games ready. Look at WiiU's launch line up compared to Switch's launch line up. Relying on one piece of software is insanely risky. Holiday 2024 gives them time to prepare a major launch game like a new 3D Mario and have tons of 3rd party games to go with it. Nintendo will gladly show off that 3rd party support alongside their new 3d Mario game showcasing the console and some new gimmick game that showcases the contoller's new gimmick. CoD returning, the annual sports games like (new Fifa I know its no longer called this, NBA 2K, etc.), some 3rd party ports, and Gaas games (Fortnite, Apex, Overwatch). Some thing for Japan's taste will likely be there such as Dragon Quest 12 or Monster Hunter World 2 maybe. This allows Switch's successor to build an audience for 3rd party games while still having Nintendo's behemoth game ensuring it's success. Switch successor will be fine, a new Mario Kart is likely ready with Pokemon Gen 10 set to release in holiday 2025 if the 3 year cycle sticks. It will likely not be cross gen because I don't think Nintendo does that. Switch could get some Pokemon spinoff in holiday 2024 as its swan song. I would rather they focus on the 2025 game though. Metriod Prime 4 needs a major userbase so it will be on Switch in probably the summer of 2024 and it's most likely swan song and grossly benefit from Switch enormous userbase. Switch and it's successor will likely be fully backward compatible.

Games
Finally my prediction for major games are as follow.
New 3D Mario launches holiday 2024 showcasing Switch 2, no cross gen. Next gen only because it's job is to sell Switch 2 consoles. Zelda ToTK is $70 because it is likely the only cross gen game and $70 is the new price for Nintendo's games. Zelda ToTK will probably have a next gen upgrade in 4K and this helps explain why the dlc is no where to be found because it needs to coincide with Switch 2 timing. I believe Nintendo likes two waves of dlc, so the first wave will likely launch sometime next year for Zelda ToTK's first year anniversary and the second wave will then be timed with holiday 2024 alongisde Switch 2 and Zelda ToTK's 4K upgrade. All other Switch games will be backward compatible only relying on I guess hardware specific upgrades like boost mode on Xbox series consoles. Pokemon I honestly don't expect to have anything in holiday 2024 because they need all hands on deck for Pokemon Gen 10 which is certainly next gen only. Even DS didn't get 3 generations of Pokemon games. Pokemon Gen 10 is definitely coming too late to be a Switch game and Nintendo needs system selling games for Switch 2. Pokemon's fear of releasing on too small of a base certainly no longer exist for Switch 2 after Switch 1 proved this to be unfounded. Mario Kart next gen is likely ready and is probably a Spring 2025 game, next gen only because its job is to be an evergreen system seller. Basically we have new 3D Mario, new Mario Kart, new gen of Poke, and Zelda ToTK 4K upgrade in the first 13 months of Switch 2, obviously there will be plenty of other games first party and third party. Switch 2 will be fine!

Edit: Forgot about the gimmick talk!
The new gimmick!
Trying to predict the new gimmick is a fools errand. Nintendo is so unpredictable and unique it's damn near impossible. They don't rely on new tech, they rely on what tech makes their new idea possible. I have read that people believe Switch 2 will be mostly tech upgrade because there aren't many new innovations lol. That shows a blanant miss understanding of anything this company does. Nintendo doesn't look for new innovations, they think of new ideas and figureout how to bring them to life. Wii Sports is the idea but it needed a controller with gyrometers. Nintendo took ir cameras and utilized them to bring cardboard creations to life. This company is quite unpredictable simply don't follow fads. The WiiU gamepad wasn't Nintendo following a trend of tablets lol, it was Nintendo coming up with the idea of asymetric gameplay and knowing they need to put a screen somewhere else to make having different prespective in gaming possible. Nintendoland was the idea with its minigames showing different prespective/views in gameplay. Whatever the new gimmick is, is whatever idea Nintendo comes up with that they like and want to bring to life.
 
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It was just 3 weeks ago when I said this:

Kise Ryota said:
Something that won't surprise me at all is Nintendo opting for an LCD screen again. I could even see Switch 2 with LCD for $350 and down the road they could release the OLED for $400. I absolutely don't think they must come with OLED for the OG model. LCD is fine and there are very good panels out there (even with decent black levels).
Click to expand...

lol

Yeah, I have seen some really good LCD screens on some handheld PC's. I'm primarily a docked player, so if costs are going down because of the screen, I'm happy with it. And, tbh, as someone who likes to keep all my consoles, I prefer LCD over OLED for longevity.
 
D36 said:
They kinda have to, if they want their transition to be as smooth as possible. Besides, one can argue that remastering all of those games would be more expensive.
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Definitely would be more resource intensive as time went on-especially if they stick with the Switch-& this tactic only really works for a few games.
 
Yeah I'm not sure I would buy anyone outside of Nintendo knowing much about BC at this stage, same with the screen. With this and the Spanish dev kit rumor, we can definitely guess we are in the midst of the more widespread dev kit access phases vs early "trusted" stages, but too far out to know about certain info like BC, what screen type or about particular gimmicks. I don't think we'll know screen until we get some solid production line leaks early next year. As far as BC goes maybe Nintendo will brief devs about that around Gamescom/TGS to some degree, but I wouldn't be surprised if we don't get something more solid until next year.
 
fwd-bwd said:
On a related note, Nintendo’s next earning call is coming up on August 3. This topic surely will come up in the Q&A session. [rubbing hands in anticipation]
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Nintendo: Don't make me tap the sign.

NateDrake said:
Who said their source on display type was a developer? They don't make that distinction.
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It's a reasonable assumption given the author and outlet. I'm not so sure about Andy's connections to East Asian display panel suppliers.
 
fwd-bwd said:
It seems to me that the VGC report did not distinguish their sources’ info from their speculations.


How could a 3rd party developer know the display type of the retail product from a dev kit? Sure, the dev kit may be shipped with an LCD panel, but that isn’t a indicator of the final product. It sounds to me that VGC’s sources read Bloomberg’s speculation of a Sharp LCD panel. Even less credible is a 3rd party dev knowing Nintendo’s rationale of this alleged LCD display (saving money for a larger storage).


Again, how could a 3rd party dev know this? It’s not credible that Nintendo would share its launch logistical strategy with them. VGC’s sources probably base their speculation on the Furukawa comment regarding sufficient supply to counter scalping.

VGC needs to do a better job of separating facts and opinions. On a related note, Nintendo’s next earning call is coming up on August 3. This topic surely will come up in the Q&A session. [rubbing hands in anticipation]
Click to expand...
Nintendo investor A: Nintendo Switch sale are begining to decline, how Nintendo plan to keep the momentum of the console?
Furukawa: Nintendo Switch has it best software sales in june, we continue to provide software that will bring smiles/fun to our customers
Phenom08 said:
Sorry for this long post but some things I just want to get off my chest.

Thinking like a business instead of a consumer.
I think one of the main issues with online gaming forums is that people like to take their wants and desires and apply them to their predictions about what a company will do. You have to remember you are the consumer, so you want as much out of Nintendo as possible while Nintendo is the business and wants to provide as little value as possible that still gets you to spend. I don't want to make Nintendo sound cynical but they are still a business with a set limit of resources (cash & workforce) and want to spend as little as possible while still making as much as possible (profit). So if you want to accurately predict what this company will do, take off the consumer cap and put on your business cap. Think like a business instead of a consumer.

Switch's launch period.
Now remember think like a business. There have been obvious signs pointing to a holiday 2024 but people refuse to believe this because they are stuck in the mindset of "I want this now" instead of what makes sense for the business. Maybe, alot of people on this site don't even follow sales so it becomes difficult to know when launching a successor makes sense.

Holiday 2023 should have recieved its final nail in the coffin in 2022 when Nintendo annouced Zelda ToTK releasing in May 2023. There was a post showing how rare launching consoles between April and September (outside the first quarter and last quarter of the calendar year) and keeping that in mind that Nintendo is notorious for aligning Zelda as a launch game. This all should have sealed the fate for Switch's successor in holiday 2023 because Zelda would have been delayed to match it. Zelda was aligned to launch with Wii despite being a Gamecube annouced game and even released on Gamecube after Wii's release lol. Zelda BoTW was annouced for WiiU and was delayed enough to coincide with Switdh lol, clearly Nintendo understands Zelda games come every blue moon, so missing their lauch is certainly not ideal. They would rather delay and align to take advantage of Zelda's iniatial hype and excitement because that's what a new console launch needs. Some people even resorted to hoping it comes alongside ToTK. Basically Nintendo was going to launch a new console, new block buster movie, and push Zelda in the first 5 months of the year? No, there is no reason to blow that much money in ads all at one time while also throwing away the Switch's final year. Switch is still selling enough hardware and espicially software to just kill it for a successor.

Early 2024, received it's final nail in its coffin when Nintendo annouced (May 2023, in their annual report) they were aiming for 15 million sold this fiscal year ending March 2024. 15 million in its 7th fiscal year is the highest if im not mistaken in all of history. The PS2's was 14 million I believe. Even the mighty DS sold 5 million in its 7th fiscal year. I don't believe any console in history has ever not been affected by the annoucement and introduction of it's successor. Why would Switch be any different? Nintendo annoucing and releasing anytime before April 2024 makes Switch's 15 million prediction impossible. So then either Nintendo lied about thier Switch prediction for this fiscal year, or you believe it will be release April 2024 or later, or Nintendo are complete idiots and really thought Switch 2 in March 2024 would have no affect on Switch's fiscal year sales ending March 2024. This is why early 2024 is dead because Nintendo isn't dumb enough to think Switch 2 annouced in 2023 and released in early 2024 wouldn't affect Switch and it's current goals. Nintendo also isn't going to make a goal they know damn well they couldn't pull off. 15 million is roughly the exact same sales as Switch's first year and roughly the peak year of Xbox global sales, Switch simply isn't selling that much in a year without getting Nintendo's undivided attention.

Switch successor launch
This leads me to my next point, this fake concern for Switch's launch. Launching in Holiday 2024 is the soluction to all of this. Nintendo wants 3rd party support, the Switch's launch was atrocious and had to be single handled carried by a single piece of software (Zelda BoTW) and then Nintendo releases another large system seller in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe because it needed all the software it could get. Nintendo doesn't want a repeat of that, launching when 3rd parties have no games ready is foolish. They companies aim for 4th quarter launches also because that's when 3rd parties have games ready. Look at WiiU's launch line up compared to Switch's launch line up. Relying on one piece of software is insanely risky. Holiday 2024 gives them time to prepare a major launch game like a new 3D Mario and have tons of 3rd party games to go with it. Nintendo will gladly show off that 3rd party support alongside their new 3d Mario game showcasing the console and some new gimmick game that showcases the contoller's new gimmick. CoD returning, the annual sports games like (new Fifa I know its no longer called this, NBA 2K, etc.), some 3rd party ports, and Gaas games (Fortnite, Apex, Overwatch). Some thing for Japan's taste will likely be there such as Dragon Quest 12 or Monster Hunter World 2 maybe. This allows Switch's successor to build an audience for 3rd party games while still having Nintendo's behemoth game ensuring it's success. Switch successor will be fine, a new Mario Kart is likely ready with Pokemon Gen 10 set to release in holiday 2025 if the 3 year cycle sticks. It will likely not be cross gen because I don't think Nintendo does that. Switch could get some Pokemon spinoff in holiday 2024 as its swan song. I would rather they focus on the 2025 game though. Metriod Prime 4 needs a major userbase so it will be on Switch in probably the summer of 2024 and it's most likely swan song and grossly benefit from Switch enormous userbase. Switch and it's successor will likely be fully backward compatible.

Games
Finally my prediction for major games are as follow.
New 3D Mario launches holiday 2024 showcasing Switch 2, no cross gen. Next gen only because it's job is to sell Switch 2 consoles. Zelda ToTK is $70 because it is likely the only cross gen game and $70 is the new price for Nintendo's games. Zelda ToTK will probably have a next gen upgrade in 4K and this helps explain why the dlc is no where to be found because it needs to coincide with Switch 2 timing. I believe Nintendo likes two waves of dlc, so the first wave will likely launch sometime next year for Zelda ToTK's first year anniversary and the second wave will then be timed with holiday 2024 alongisde Switch 2 and Zelda ToTK's 4K upgrade. All other Switch games will be backward compatible only relying on I guess hardware specific upgrades like boost mode on Xbox series consoles. Pokemon I honestly don't expect to have anything in holiday 2024 because they need all hands on deck for Pokemon Gen 10 which is certainly next gen
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Phenom08 said:
n only. Even DS didn't get 3 generations of Pokemon games. Pokemon Gen 10 is definitely coming too late to be a Switch game and Nintendo needs system selling games for Switch 2. Pokemon's fear of releasing on too small of a base certainly no longer exist for Switch 2 after Switch 1 proved this to be unfounded. Mario Kart next gen is likely ready and is probably a Spring 2025 game, next gen only because its job is to be an evergreen system seller. Basically we have new 3D Mario, new Mario Kart, new gen of Poke, and Zelda ToTK 4K upgrade in the first 13 months of Switch 2, obviously there will be plenty of other games first party and third party. Switch 2 will be fine!
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i gonna reirate what i stated in previous therds here, Nintendo need to provide good games for both Switch and it sucessor, they cant simply here 2024/2025 or later launch the Switch sucessor and Switch stop having games, the console need to get games for 3/4 more years, when the successor is in the market, show to the huge Switch user base, dont worry, the Switch' successor is in the market, but Switch will still get games 3/4 years, that how you do a good transiction for your next hardware.
 
YolkFolk said:
Just no.

They literally delayed Switch from late 2016 to early 2017 so that software could be ready. The N64 was delayed just to make sure Mario 64 was ready.

There’s a huge difference between games being ready for March vs October/November - like obviously.

We’re also talking based on this info so if the hardware is late 2024 that’s because that’s when the games will be ready. If that date is the plan, it isn’t just a case of Nintendo starting the factories earlier to release the hardware earlier, which is the entire point of this chat you’ve dived into.

No point me responding anymore since you’ve proven you know nothing about games development and hardware releases. You’re literally suggesting ‘just release it anyway’.
Click to expand...

Just this much, I think, and am very sure, that I know more in this topic than you.

I also know to not directly get personal if someone disagrees.

This is my last post about in this conversation.
 
ItWasMeantToBe19 said:
No one has ever done 3-4 years of games for their old hardware. Sony with the PS4 had the longest support of any last gen game console ever and it ended after two years.
Click to expand...

That isn't true.

PS1 was getting first party sports games in 2004. PS2 was getting Singstar games in 2010 and MLB the Show in 2011. Convallaria is being published by Sony and it will release on PS4. That game still has not been released.
 
Giancarlo said:
Nintendo investor A: Nintendo Switch sale are begining to decline, how Nintendo plan to keep the momentum of the console?
Furukawa: Nintendo Switch has it best software sales in june, we continue to provide software that will bring smiles/fun to our customers


i gonna reirate what i stated in previous therds here, Nintendo need to provide good games for both Switch and it sucessor, they cant simply here 2024/2025 or later launch the Switch sucessor and Switch stop having games, the console need to get games for 3/4 more years, when the successor is in the market, show to the huge Switch user base, dont worry, the Switch' successor is in the market, but Switch will still get games 3/4 years, that how you do a good transiction for your next hardware.
Click to expand...
Nintendo could support Switch with smaller games or ports but system selling ip ain't happening. 3rd parties will continue to release Switch games from 2024 and beyond. 3rd parties aren't going to just disappear for Switch just because Switch 2 is on the market. The 3rd party support it currently gets aren't leaving anytime soon. The annual sports games including just dance, 3rd party AA and indie games, and the gaas titles aren't going anywhere. Nintendo's hardware is still mostly driven by first party games, so releasing those larger games on Switch would certainly risk people not upgrading to Switch 2.
 
ItWasMeantToBe19 said:
No one has ever done 3-4 years of games for their old hardware. Sony with the PS4 had the longest support of any last gen game console ever and it ended after two years.
Click to expand...
PS2 got games years when the PS3 was in the market, why the same cant happen with Switch? you cant simply ignore a user base of 100 milions players
 
Third parties won’t necessarily have details on final screen type, backwards compat, etc. But if Devkits are indeed out there, we should get confirmation of things like SoC, RAM, pretty soon, right?
 
oldpuck said:
The followup video from VGC makes this explicit, that Nintendo is keeping anything close to their chest that they can.
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It's funny, in the video Andy says he thinks that backwards compatibility is something devs would need to know about, then goes on to be puzzled about why they don't know it yet, instead of reevaluating his assumption. Clearly Nintendo doesn't think it is something they need to know.

And -- even though he apparently thinks that Nintendo will soft announce the system either this week or in November, since he wrongly believes the narrative that Nintendo consoles are always revealed first in investor presentations -- he doesn't seem consider the fact that it is something Nintendo will tell developers, after they've already done their own reveal and desired PR messaging around it. They even get into the well-understood discussion that Nintendo can't wait too long to reveal things without knowing that those things will leak, but doesn't put two and two together with the BC discussion.
 
ItWasMeantToBe19 said:
I will say that the "Nintendo won't sell the OLED at launch to get double dippers later!" discussion is coming from a group I like to describe as "very stupid people who act cynical to pretend to be smart."

The rate at which screen tech is improving means that a Switch 2 revision in 2028 could have a massively better and brighter screen than the OLED the Switch 2 could launch with. The revision's screen could be bright enough to do really good HDR even.

Probably the dumbest point I've seen brought up, seems to be from tech illiterate people. Screen tech is improving the most of any tech right now (as should be obvious if you've... bought a TV or monitor in the last 5 years?)
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Jesus, chill dude. This isn't that serious.
 
0
Goodtwin said:
One thing to keep in mind as it pertains to an LCD display, the Switch is equipped with a mediocre LCD display, and that is partly what makes the OLED stand out so much. Going from a lower end LCD panel to a quality OLED panel is a striking improvement where as if the LCD panel were a higher end model, the improvement would not seem as significant.
Click to expand...
I thought the LCD was actually quite good?



The title says Vs. 3DS but she seems really pleased with the display in general.
 
So looking back at that recent Capcom rumor, they apparently have a game for the back half of 24. MH at launch would be a whopper for sure.

fwd-bwd said:
Stephen Totilo seems to be preparing his own report with Japanese sources:

Click to expand...

Nice this could be interesting.
 
LiC said:
It's funny, in the video Andy says he thinks that backwards compatibility is something devs would need to know about, then goes on to be puzzled about why they don't know it yet, instead of reevaluating his assumption. Clearly Nintendo doesn't think it is something they need to know.

And -- even though he apparently thinks that Nintendo will soft announce the system either this week or in November, since he wrongly believes the narrative that Nintendo consoles are always revealed first in investor presentations -- he doesn't seem consider the fact that it is something Nintendo will tell developers, after they've already done their own reveal and desired PR messaging around it. They even get into the well-understood discussion that Nintendo can't wait too long to reveal things without knowing that those things will leak, but doesn't put two and two together with the BC discussion.
Click to expand...

Devs should probably know if the system has BC or not though, lol.

Whether it has BC will heavily influence the release schedule and patch schedule for all third-parties publishers.
 
John Omaha said:
I thought the LCD was actually quite good?



The title says Vs. 3DS but she seems really pleased with the display in general.
Click to expand...

I think the quality of the screens besides during the launch period tends to wildly vary once nintendo gets more and more companies involved to source screens.
 
0
Instro said:
Yeah I'm not sure I would buy anyone outside of Nintendo knowing much about BC at this stage, same with the screen. With this and the Spanish dev kit rumor, we can definitely guess we are in the midst of the more widespread dev kit access phases vs early "trusted" stages, but too far out to know about certain info like BC, what screen type or about particular gimmicks. I don't think we'll know screen until we get some solid production line leaks early next year. As far as BC goes maybe Nintendo will brief devs about that around Gamescom/TGS to some degree, but I wouldn't be surprised if we don't get something more solid until next year.
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oldpuck said:


Ollie makes an excellent point about PS5 Pro, PS4 Pro, and crossgen, one that has come up in thread, but I think is worth considering.

Basically, Ollie says that the PS4 Pro future proofed games for cross-gen. Having high frame rate/4k modes for the Pro gave a lot of late-gen PS4 games a built in scalability to look good when played on PS5 without requiring a PS5 patch. Obviously first party games in that last year were going to get solid support on both generations, but slightly older games, and third party games were teed up to look great on PS5 in a way that might not have happened without the Pro. And that Sony might want to use the PS5 Pro to future proof for the PS6.

Relevant because we've all pointed to cross gen on other platforms as Nintendo's obvious path, but the leap between Switch and NG won't have anything to straddle the middle. Unlike the PS4->5 transition, where devs had a way to put enhancements in their game at launch time, years before the PS5 came out, Switch games that have already released might have disbanded their dev teams and moved on to new projects. The cost of these enhancements is higher after the fact, ignoring any cost associated with enhancing for a platform that doesn't have hardware BC.
Click to expand...

Dealing with the hardware being different is probably going to be an "if they want" to sort of thing, especially for quick and dirty enhancement patches. It is highly probable that a "next gen aware" BC mode will be offered, similar to the others.
 
catonkatonk said:
Fundamentally disagree. Scrolling from one end of the fuse list to the other takes ages. Just holding right and scrolling through at max speed is like 30+ seconds. Longer than the fast-travel load time!
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.... that had me just make a double take. I have >100h in, have all shrines and routes.
It took me 23'15. Why was i suprized? because in my whole game i never needed the last element.

Why do i think this is a imagined problem in that degree?
There are 4 filter types: zonai materials (only make sense for a handfull of those)
strongest material (useful)
Type (less useful since mostly food is at the start)
and most used. And the last one is the reason why i don't think this problem exists.
And it plays right into one of my biggest problem with TotK:
they sold the fuse system as this big, imaginative think where endless posibilities exist...
but in reality, only a handfull of fuses are reasonable. Elemental weapons, 3-5 zonai items, some damage making monster pats, and stuff like puff shroom or bombs.
in the first 10 hours, where you will have had all of those, the list as a whole is rather small.
It only becomes hard to look through in the mid to late game, when you aquire a lot of unique items...but what are those? Food and more monster parts.

So you want to shoot one of those weaker monster parts? its probably in the frequently used list at the start somewhere. Wana shoot a strong monster part? sort by strength. Wana throw some food? sort by type. a zonai device? sort by devices. Your usual elemental stuff? sort by recent, its almost sure in the first 10, maaybe 15 items. And it stays at the last spot, so you don't have to traverse the list all the time.
i had maybe a handful of times over a hundred + hours moments where i searched items.

Same for thorowing.
My top used are: the light flower, bombs, big light flower (played with german text), fire arrow froit, puff shroom, dazle fruit, kees eye, ice friut, electro fruit, and the dizzy flower.
The first 10 are the items i actually use for throwing and arrows like 99% of the time.

You know where i searched the most? in the armor menu, since you cant sort them by frequency of use, just by gear type (head, upper, lower) or by set.

catonkatonk said:
Imagine they changed it so that it shows a full-screen grid of items. Imagine if the item you want to select is on this screen, with no scrolling needed. With a controller, you still have to effectively move a selection rectangle to your desired item. On a second display, you just tap the item. That's it. If you know where the item is (because the grid is static, lets say), then it's near instantaneous depending on whether you need to adjust the grip or free a hand (and the device I'm imagining could be small enough that you could reach anywhere on the screen without having to adjust your grip - I'm imagining a small screen of around 4.5 inches at max, with a total device length that will be in the neighbourhood of a Galaxy Note-style smartphone).
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Ok, now we are talking more concrete. Next to the problem of it being harder to hold (a 7" screen has is weight, making it less accessible for children and weak handed and slightly more fatiguing for the average player), but lets assume its more of a "stupid screen" for static content and less for a "second screen". now i get more what you mean, and i have more sympathy for that idea, but it cant be instead of a TV solution, and in this case i could see a lot of people miss clicking the element if you want to show all of them, and it being really anoying. lets just think back to phones back when they where smaller:
people misstyped a ton, and most of it got corrected by autocorrect. Selecting and clicking on stuff on web pages was also sometimes really finicky. There is a limit how many elements you reasonably can put on one of those screens for people to klick from the side with their thumb without letting go of the console (-> risk of it slipping out of hand). And if you limit the amount of elements you see on screen... then youre back at needing to scroll. Then sorting becomes a topic again, making the "muscle memory" part kinda pointless. Except if you add manually sorted menus with fixed positions to the mix, but then were back at "they could have done that in the base game and decided against it".
catonkatonk said:
The ability to instantaneously select something off a decently long list (for example your list of weapons can take up a single page on the screen, no scrolling needed at all) allows devs to explore opportunities for, example, real-time switching. But even if they don't, it's still faster.
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Just looked at my list, and this is again a late game problem, and im still missing 7 slots.
with 10-15 slots its still rather easy to just select it in the side list, and by the time im in the late game and have that many weapons... i honestly dont switch that often, since they all break far less often.
Would it open up some late game high level gameplay? ... maybe? i mean, look at all those "fancy BotW battle videos" and my reaction to those was: the battle system diesnt provide enough depth for all of links skills. Links just dancing arround and doing circus acrobatigs while he plays with the enemies. They just dont provide enough depth for such high level weapon shenanigans for like 99% of players.
catonkatonk said:
Menus will always be better navigated with a mouse and keyboard or a touchscreen. That's why we navigate the internet and complex software in that way, instead of using controllers that are admittedly more comfy and ergonomic.
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cautiously agree... for 95% of usecases, sure. Especially the keyboard part.
The thing with keyboards: you have tons of inputs in a second and to do shortcuts to jump to those elements you want to manipulate.

Touch is its own mode of input, with strengths and pitfalls. One pitfall is the precision.
Be it that users cover their vision with their finger, be it that a finger it not a fine point,
so it depends of the interpretation of the area that was touched.
so its a balancing act how to position the elements, have the active zones set properly, etc.
That also means, you can fit less elements on the screen, since they are bigger.
if they are interconnected, having to switch views can be a nightmare in usability.
what about repeated inputs? its way easier to press a button multiple times then to tap multiple times.
In other words: there are cases, where a more Details view thats intuitively layed out controlled by a simple input method (be it a trackball, controller, etc) .

And im talking about someone thats annoyed to this day how none of the big companies tried radial (or other) text imput methods with the sticks, since moving a cursor over a virtual keyboard is probably the worst way to do it (next to scrolling through a list... =P)


catonkatonk said:
If games have to include complex UI, then we need a better way to interact with it. And again, this is a limited example. Other genres like real-time strategy games, for example, would improve dramatically.
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im not sure about RTS. There have to be so many informational aspects on the screen, that a small screen fast becomes a limiting factor.
catonkatonk said:
But even for Tears of the Kingdom, here's the most conservative implementation I can think of:
Sage icons on the left/right extremes of the display, as previously suggested. Rune abilities across the top of the display. Icons for the quest log, inventory, save menu, settings across the bottom. Everything else taken up by the map. Entering any of the previous menus displays them full screen. Holding, say, right on the d-pad, displays all your weapons, full-screen in a grid on the second display and you just have to tap the one you want. You could even map say, "drop weapon" to "drag the icon of a specific weapon to a trashcan", but maybe that's getting ahead of myself. The map would also display your horse location and the ability to call it.
If all you need to do is adjust your gaze and not your grip, then you'll be able to switch to your desired rune, weapon, shield or bow in less than a second. And I think flick-scrolling the inventory for, say, fusing would be faster as well. The only way you could be as quick with a controller is with a quick-select wheel, and the problem with that is that it places a much lower limit in the number of, say, weapons that are selectable.

L, d-pad up, - and + are now free to be used for other things or not at all.
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Interesting take, i would have a handfull of criticisms, but feels like my post is already geting to long... 2 questions: "call the horse"... now its a single button, or do you imply it would be able to call if from anywhere? They decided explicitly against it, and with the first BotW DLC there was special horse armor that worked in exactly that way, it called the horse from anywhere.

Second: quick select wheel. There are a handful of ideas i can think of how that could work. multiple tier (some wont like it, i already have multiple ideas how it could visually work, but it would be less "sleak"), and it could dynamically adapt to that when you reach the amount of weapons.
But as mentioned, i don't even feel its necessary. Another take would be, to radially scroll through the list. You have a rough representation of your weapons in small icons, move the stick in one direction, youre now at that part of the list, and can scroll through, that part of the list gets increased in size. Similar to how the 8 element list now increases the selected element in size, but way more, and it is more if a "zoom" into that part of the list. with slight training you could instantly select your weapon (the stick has way more then 25 degrees), and if you slightly miss, a slight turn of the stick can scroll you the 2-3 weapons further you missed. since the speed is dependent of your use of the stick, it would be almost instant, and all without having to move the eyes of the screen. That would be my preferred solution, if i feel that it is a problem.

All that reminds me... why is the "whistle" button not a radial menue for the sages... have a button press to activate their skill, and another to togle them on and off, and next to the sages there is the whistle that you can just activate... OR if the button is just short pressed it activates a whistle (or optionally, setable in the menu, the last used sage power).

Man, this game was just a dissapointment in the UX regard after the masterclass that BotW was...
catonkatonk said:
I feel like the suggestion of micromanaging favourites for quicker access is just an acknowledgement that the controller is badly suited for navigating large menus. Menu management itself is time spent not playing the actual game. And then the game will still ask you to fire a King's Scale arrow, and you're there, scrolling endlessly, looking for an item you've never used before.
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Nah, its an aknowledgement that 90% of the items are of no regular use. I dont need to throw 10 different meats or 20 different fruits of the frogs. I dont need 90% of the armor sets that are essentially just aestetics, when there are ones that have definitive practical use (all the old link outfits...), and i it almost always the better case to use whole sets for the set bonus. If i am climbing , and want to climb faster, i want the whole set. Why do i have to select pieces one by one. And when im done, i wana switch back to my whole previous set. If it at least had the option "select by most used", the whole problem would be miniscule, since all of my sets would already be at the top of the page, and i would only be anoyed to have to select all 3 pieces one by one, but at least then it would be right there.

A menue on a screen would be better, but it would still be the weaker option. To go back to the radial menue for the sage skills, there would be place for a quickselector for gear sets. Select that, and with a button switch through 5 defined sets for different usecases (say one for climbing, one for swiming, one for free falling, one for batling, one for the depths).
"Kings Scale arrow"... thats once. literary once in the game. There is a handfull of times where you need special items to shoot.
catonkatonk said:
Likewise, I don't think "add more buttons" is the answer. I feel there is already too many and that there is a time cost in developing dexterity and memorisation required to play games in the first place. I want games to be more accessible to newcomers.
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Were on the same track in making it more accessible for newcomers. I totally see the risk in overwhelming people with to many buttons, but i feel like button combinations are worse.
I see it with synths all the time, its just easier to have a button with a dedicated function.
What games need is generous remaping options and an easy "what does what button do" screen for quick referencing. An idea i had are buttons with leds, so that based on the color you know what action corresponds to the color, but then i realized that many devs would not put the effort in to color code actions, so in the end it would not help for contextual uses.

A touchscreen definitely can help in that regard. Then again, most of your arguments for this game only start to really be relevant in the end game with full inventories, expanded inventories and for pro gamer weapon switching on the fly.
catonkatonk said:
For you, pressing "-" to enter a map may well be faster than glancing down at a second screen. But you're someone who knows that you press -, and where - is, and you'll never forget or get confused or press the wrong button. I've seen too many people play Tears of the Kingdom throw their weapon when they want to switch runes. The controllers we have now are at the upper edge of what most people can comfortably handle. Like, on a cognitive level. Source? My source is I made it the fuck up!
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I myself mix things up when i don't play this game for a month, and it took me a day to get back into it after BotW. I 100% get what you mean. and i still manage to throw my weapon sometimes or mix the + and - buttons. The good thing: link has the skills to get your weapon back, switching menus is fast, and rarely is the game that demanding that such errors really are a problem.
I just don't think adding a screen would help that much, the complexity of the game is more of a problem in that regard, and throwing a weapon will always be a button function, since you usually need to do it fluently in combat.
catonkatonk said:
Technical hurdles exist, I mention the two biggest ones, but I don't think powering a smaller, lower-res screen is that significant, especially considering the amount of complexity and redundancy that already goes into the joycon - two sets of wireless radios, batteries, gyros, rumble motors, an IR sensor, NFC, etc. Especially considering I envisage the two halves having individual batteries that do not trade charge, meaning the second screen's power draw would be irrelevant to the SoC.
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i dont see it the same as the joy cons. first, adding another complecity aspect is simply pushing cost, that the joy cons add that doesnt change that more -> more. when connected, the joy cons dont run on battery as far as i know, making the point mute. You always can play as long as the switch has power. If the second screen is an essential part, then you cant play the switch if it doesn't have power.
If im playing docked, i can just use a different controller. i probably wont have another screen attachment i assume.
catonkatonk said:
Encoding and streaming should absolutely be a hardware-level feature which, yes, would add to the cost. This is making a different decision to how the WiiU did things, because the WiiU made the wrong decisions. Realise: The Switch as it is already designed incurs a lot of extra expense and a lot of complexity for things its rivals do not bother with. The question is, is the differentiated experience worth it overall? I think when considering the current Switch, for most people the answer is yes. And I think for the benefits of having a second screen, the extra expense is also justified. Input is, to me, a more significant factor than graphical horsepower. That's putting aside the inherent benefits of a clamshell formfactor and a smaller footprint. Speaking of, yes, there is a processing cost in generating an image for that second screen, but if all you're doing is displaying a menu or a map, that cost is minimal. If you want to go and do something more ambitious? Well it's better to have the option than not.
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Yeah, thats definitely an individual decision if the trade offs are worth it. Can't argue against that, even if i feel differently.
catonkatonk said:
That said, I think weight-distribution and thickness is still a killer lol
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yeah...I don't want a steam deck or worse...

------------

I hope you don't get the feeling that i don't get you at all or am trying to "discredit" your position.
I disagree with a whole lot as you see, but i also find your position interesting and at least see where you are coming from. I also would be interested in more second screen gameplay, but in my opinion, it needs to be implemented differently:
push smartphone integration further. Almost everybody has a second screen at home.
They have bluetooth and wifi. For menu diving, some basic inputs, heck, even some more interactive gameplay features, it would be posible to use that.
The gimick would be a better joy con grip for the switch. It allows Tate mode for different gameplay styles or simply to have a great (3)DS emulator. AND that grip could also be used to hold a smartphone between the joy cons, opening up the ideas you are proposing.
How would that work? 2 ways: nintendo app, that downloads some game assets you need to your phone, or the game running a webserver where the phone displays the ui as a iframe.
The former would mean your phone has to be connected to your switch via bluetooth.
This should work rather fine.
the later would need to run over ether the local network or a service from nintendo, meaning it would lead to many support problems (firewalls), wifi directly (then theres the problem of your phone not being able to connect to your usual wifi), and there would be the question how those features work when nintendo shuts of the connecting servers years into the future. An example of them using somethign like this: 1-2-Switch !

So... yeah, this would eliminate the need for a screen, a clunky form factor, etc, and every dev (including nintendo) that wants to use it can. It does mitigate the option for high resolution low latency action gameplay on the additional screen... but in my opinion, that would not be worth it and we have seen that experiment die with the Wii U. But something like a live map for asymetrical gameplay where every player has different information, or a "infrared view", or menue scrolling, or doodling, or using the touch screen for touch input on a game... those are all small enough in size that it should work just fine.
 
Alkraken said:
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Welp, time for me to retire my #2023 jersey
OIP.zRulPmCdWb7_fx6f6vaJWwAAAA


But in all seriousness, it's good to have more confirmation of a planned launch next year.
 
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