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Spoiler The Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom Spoiler Thread

I’ll admit that while he has a cool design and is definitely well executed for what he is, I am a little underwhelmed by Ganondorf in this game. Being a “new Ganondorf” without the history of OG Ganondorf who has the knowledge and experiences of prior games takes away a lot of his gravitas as a series fixture. In a series full of new heroes and Zeldas and an ever changing Hyrule, Ganon(dorf) as a singular recurring entity made him unique and imposing, feeling like every time he’d return, he’d be even more of a threat than ever. The new guy is unfortunately just a power hungry usurper who is looking to conquer for the sake of conquest. And worse, he retroactively makes Calamity Ganon (assuming Calamity Ganon is a projection of gloom/malice and a product of this guy rather than somehow tied to OG Ganondorf) a much less interesting antagonist as well.
I hadn’t thought about this yet and I’d certainly agree with it. The presence and impact Ganondorf had in Wind Waker and Twighlight Princess was certainly magnified by being the same guy. I really did dig some of the voice acting though, his gleeful malicious face when he gets the secret stone, and of course the start of your final battle (king’s revival and the double health bar especially). With how wildly over the top he blew up (they didn’t have to go that hard lol, but I appreciate it deeply), I don’t think this Ganondorf is ever coming back either which is kind of a shame he won’t go on to build his own legacy.
 
I’ll admit that while he has a cool design and is definitely well executed for what he is, I am a little underwhelmed by Ganondorf in this game. Being a “new Ganondorf” without the history of OG Ganondorf who has the knowledge and experiences of prior games takes away a lot of his gravitas as a series fixture. In a series full of new heroes and Zeldas and an ever changing Hyrule, Ganon(dorf) as a singular recurring entity made him unique and imposing, feeling like every time he’d return, he’d be even more of a threat than ever. The new guy is unfortunately just a power hungry usurper who is looking to conquer for the sake of conquest. And worse, he retroactively makes Calamity Ganon (assuming Calamity Ganon is a projection of gloom/malice and a product of this guy rather than somehow tied to OG Ganondorf) a much less interesting antagonist as well.
This is definitely the least interesting version of Ganondorf. In that sense that is my greatest ambivalence about the game; it’s amazing to play and I’ll ruin my sleep schedule doing so, but I think the general story of it (and BOTW) is the least interesting of the 3D Zeldas. Some nice sequences and moments but it doesn’t all quite come together like it should.

In a way I think it’s okay that the story is less important in these games, because they’re not as linear and story driven as the older games. As a game, it’s still an absolute joy to play. One of the greatest video games I’ve ever played. I just wish I was more driven by the story and the desire to find out what happens next as I was in the other games.
 
After about a week to think about my full playthrough and everything, I have come to a conclusion: Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom are a love story.
 
I've watched people on YouTube fight Ganondorf. I noticed that the person I watched didn't realize you can send Ganondorf's gloom attacks back at him with the Master sword.

Personally, I figured that out late in the fight but I thought I should have figured it out earlier. I decided to see if other people realized this, but I watched 6 or 7 videos of people fighting Ganondorf and only 1 other person figured this out (that I've seen).

Did you folks know you can send Ganondorf's gloom attacks back at him?
 
I've watched people on YouTube fight Ganondorf. I noticed that the person I watched didn't realize you can send Ganondorf's gloom attacks back at him with the Master sword.

Personally, I figured that out late in the fight but I thought I should have figured it out earlier. I decided to see if other people realized this, but I watched 6 or 7 videos of people fighting Ganondorf and only 1 other person figured this out (that I've seen).

Did you folks know you can send Ganondorf's gloom attacks back at him?

I had no idea.
I struggled on that fight in general. The timing of his attacks are so weird. I guess I was supposed to train on Phantom Ganon instead of running away from the Gloom Hands all the time. But they could have given the Phantom a very obvious, Ocarina of Time-esque energy ball to foreshadow the Dorf'd triple shots? I mean that is literally what Ocarina did anyway.
 
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Did you folks know you can send Ganondorf's gloom attacks back at him?
I beat him twice before finding out on some random youtube video. In retrospect, I should have realized they wouldn't abandon the ping-pong completely.
I think the fact that he sends multiple shots at the same time instead of only one kept me from making the connection.

My friends figured it out but all of them did it by accident while mashing the attack button.
 
I've watched people on YouTube fight Ganondorf. I noticed that the person I watched didn't realize you can send Ganondorf's gloom attacks back at him with the Master sword.

Personally, I figured that out late in the fight but I thought I should have figured it out earlier. I decided to see if other people realized this, but I watched 6 or 7 videos of people fighting Ganondorf and only 1 other person figured this out (that I've seen).

Did you folks know you can send Ganondorf's gloom attacks back at him?
Didn’t know that at all.
 
Found it out very late in the fight by accident. As well by smashing the attack button.
Then he was already down..
I was getting very annoyed that he always made a backflip in slow motion when I wanted to hit him. I cornered him against a wall to do some damage, when I should have just waited to send back the gloom projectiles.
 
One thing that sort of confuses me is how the descendant characters (gerudo, zora, rito, and goron) were given the bare minimum in terms of characterization. In their fight with Ganondorf, they had this all-star team with Rauru, Mineru, and Zelda, and 4 other faceless members. And I'm sure a lot of people were annoyed having to listen to the exact same Imprisoning War story 4 times.

I don't think any of them needed extensive backstories, but some more individuality would have been nice. Maybe they didn't want to rehash the champions from Breath of the Wild? That's the only reason I can think of.
 
Did you folks know you can send Ganondorf's gloom attacks back at him?

I was shocked by seeing how many people didn't realise it, being able to knock magic back at Ganondorf is practically as natural as breathing to me at this point, but then you remember just how much BOTW expanded the series and that this really is probably the first time a lot of them have seen the dead man's volley in action.
 
Playing Breath of the Wild right before Tears, and then both Skyward Sword and Twilight Princess right after, really went a long way in showing just how weak the characters in Tears are. Zelda’s never been a narrative powerhouse so a weak story doesn’t really bother me, but I’ve always been able to remember the big character moments, and that’s been enough. Groose’s heel turn, Colin saving Beth, Sheik being Zelda, damn near anything to do with Midna, etc.

The only takeaway I got from Tears is Zelda turning into a dragon. And yeah, that’s a really cool moment, but I feel like there should’ve been more for a game this long. Add in the structural mess of the narrative itself, and Tears ended up being one of my least favorite Zelda stories in retrospect. Breath of the Wild’s story certainly wasn’t perfect, but it had me a lot more invested.
 
Playing Breath of the Wild right before Tears, and then both Skyward Sword and Twilight Princess right after, really went a long way in showing just how weak the characters in Tears are. Zelda’s never been a narrative powerhouse so a weak story doesn’t really bother me, but I’ve always been able to remember the big character moments, and that’s been enough. Groose’s heel turn, Colin saving Beth, Sheik being Zelda, damn near anything to do with Midna, etc.

The only takeaway I got from Tears is Zelda turning into a dragon. And yeah, that’s a really cool moment, but I feel like there should’ve been more for a game this long. Add in the structural mess of the narrative itself, and Tears ended up being one of my least favorite Zelda stories in retrospect. Breath of the Wild’s story certainly wasn’t perfect, but it had me a lot more invested.
It's probably my least favorite story among them(at least the 3d ones). Didn't like the way they copied Oot and SS(Ganondorf introduction and Zelda waiting Link for centuries in a dormant state). And they repeated BOTW bad execution (at least for me) where the interesting characters actually doing things are in the past. Also botw memories were better to watch out of sequence than totk. Such a waste of awesome character designs(Zelda, Sonia and Rauru).
 
The Gerudo quest is pretty cool, but the Gibdos sure are weak considering the game sends you there last. Design-wise they're cool and in the siege of Gerudo Town and the Queen Gibdo fight they do feel like a Zelda version of a zombie movie, but they're slow, they don't hit hard, and by the fourth phenomena quest you're going to have a plethora of elemental attacks available. Redeads/Gibdos were never really a super challenging enemy, they were more scary in Ocarina of Time because they were unexpected, they're aesthetically scary, and many of us were kids when we played it, but since they're the focal point of this quest it's weird how easy to kill they are.
 
Well maybe it's better to say it sends you everywhere else first, but Purah did suggest Rito, Goron, and Zora in that order to me.
 
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Does it? I went there last but I don't think that was particularly how the game nudged me.
Yeah if you follow the newspaper headlines the desert is the last region it will point you toward (Rito, Goron, Zora, then Gerudo).

I still dug it as my final region even though the town defense doesn’t feel tense at all at that point. I do like the gibdos at that point though since it encourages you to use the sages you have.
 
I don't think a Gibdo ever managed to successfully attack me. I don't even know what they do!
 
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Just rolled credits. Will try to catch up on the thread over time so sorry if anything I say here has been covered already, but here are my Thoughts of the Kingdom:

So this is just my stream of consciousness as I've been going through the game. It probably sounds overly negative for a game that's so good but just like with BotW, I went in expecting one thing and got something very different so my head is now having to digest the gap between what I wanted and what I got. Sorry. 😅

I went into the game expecting The Sky to be the thing I'd want to explore and spend time in but the sky islands are so small and scattered that they barely caught my interest in the long run. The Great Sky Island was amazing and I figured there'd be a lot more like that and there just wasn't. I did, however, stumble across something where I actually experienced the BotW-like feeling of exploration and discovery again: The Depths.

What an absolute surprise that was! I got totally sucked into trying to explore them and fill out the map, especially once I realized the Lightroots correspond to Shrines. A lot of them are easier to track down than the shrines, since they're big and somewhat illuminated and everything else is pitch black. I started working to track them down as a means of finding shrines I couldn't see as easily. Also The Depths remind me of a cross between Noctilum and Sylvalum so the Xenoblade X fan in me was very happy. Now I know why Monolith was so heavily involved with a game that "reused" BotW's Hyrule.

Actually now that I think about it, filling the map out with Lightroots gradually as you go along has a very MonolithSoft feel, at least compared to the towers. I wonder if that was their idea.

Being able to shoot up into the sky either via Recall or the towers really breaks the traversal imo. I found myself basically paragliding everywhere and missing most of the terrain, so it doesn't feel quite like the "revisiting of Hyrule" that I expected because I'm just skipping over most of it. I just sorta miss the wonder of walking/riding into an area and scoping it all out, because I descend into everyplace from the sky now. Often accidentally. Like I literally accidentally fell into Kakariko this time around, rather than BotW's build-up of the horse ride up the hills and through the canyon into the village. And I know that's sorta my own doing but like, if I have to make a decision to dial back my interaction with a core part of the game in order to feel like I'm fully experiencing said game then that's a little weird.

I eventually got the hang of Fuse and had fun with it, and it gives me a lot of incentive to go into mobs with black and silver enemies just to get good weapon-crafting stuff. But Ultrahand crafting never really stopped feeling like a chore and almost ruined one of the dungeons for me. Which sucks because the return of dungeons was something I was really, really excited about!! But these still aren't traditional Zelda dungeons, they're basically Divine Beasts that don't move. Go to the place, there's like five important rooms, find a way into them and push their buttons (here we'll mark them on the map for good measure) and there ya go. Just like the Divine Beasts. Which were cool in the concept of BotW, don't get me wrong! I enjoyed them, especially the scale and the way they really felt like they were in Hyrule as opposed to a sectioned-off separate area. I'm okay with them doing a similar thing here but I just got so hyped thinking "dungeons" would progress more like OoT through SS dungeons and that's just not what I got at all. I wonder if we'll ever even see those types of Zelda dungeons again at this rate.

Though I will admit I enjoyed the Lightning and Water Temples quite a bit.

Side note: when I dropped into the Depths for the Fire Temple quest it was an area I had actually explored the hell out of days prior, activating all the Lightroots in the area and everything. Yet I somehow never actually stumbled across the temple itself. I don't know how I managed to miss it. 😅

The story is compelling in its own bubble but good lord, them leading with The Imprisoning War namedrop made me feel like this was gonna connect more definitively with the lore, but then the monkey paw curled and then they seemingly retcon the shit outta everything instead, including The Imprisoning War itself! It feels like it's trying to retcon Skyward Sword a bit, but maybe they aren't. I can accept that maybe post-Skyward Sword the Hylians are on the surface but haven't founded Hyrule yet, then the Zonai descended and founded the kingdom along with Skyloft's descendants. BUT if this is how it went then why the hell is Ganondorf already there that far back? I thought it was established that Ocarina's Ganondorf was the first, but if TotK's Zelda memories take place before Ocarina (at the beginning of Hyrule) then not only was there another Ganondorf before him, but said other-Ganondorf was technically sorta still alive under Hyrule Castle even while other reincarnations of him came along. Which doesn't seem right.

Plus The Imprisoning War was supposed to be about Ganondorf attaining the full Triforce after Ocarina of Time and having to be sealed away in the Sacred Realm, leading to Link to the Past. This Imprisoning War, however, is about him attaining the queen's stone and becoming so powerful that he has to be sealed under the castle. Nothing about the Triforce or the Sacred Realm at all. So this isn't even the same Imprisoning War, they just reused the name. Which.. confused the hell outta me for a good long while before I realized it. And now instead of confused I am irritated.

Plus plus, what we see from Ganondorf here mirrors what happened in Ocarina to an almost confusing degree. Are they retconning Ocarina entirely? Surely not but that's what it feels like, especially again with the thought that OoT Ganondorf is supposed to be the first one, and this story seems to mimic that of OoT's Ganondorf (just with a different macguffin than the Triforce (and a radically different King of Hyrule)).

So the only way my brain can make sense of any of it, and I absolutely hate this, is to discard the idea of the games being connected and go with that idea that "they're all just legends and nothing really connects" (which I can't believe because of how definitely linked OoT, WW, TP, and LttP are). But then the kicker to all that is, there's in-game stuff in BotW/TotK to suggest OoT and Skyward Sword happened. And I count the presence of clothing as more like non-canon easter eggs, but I'm talking about the big story plaques in Zora's domain talking about OoT's Princess Ruto, and the Sealed Temple from Skyward Sword having fallen into the Tanagar Canyon. So OoT and SS happened in BotW's continuity, but BotW's direct sequel seems bound and determined to contradict them. Hell, it seems to even be trying to contradict BotW a bit!! How was no connection made whatsoever between the Calamity Ganon and a dude named Ganondorf, both of which spew red/black goop and command the same army of monsters? I know it's obvious to us as the audience but it seems so strange for the story and characters of this game to not actually connect Ganondorf to Ganon. I don't understand. My head hurts.

I still love Akkala.

The new enemies were fantastic, and were one of the things I felt was missing from BotW. The Boss Bokoblin fights are fun, the patrolling Taluses are a neat switch-up, the Froxes are basically Dodongos which is awesome, Gleeoks make their triumphant return in a big way, and the bosses. THE BOSSES, YALL. Yet another thing I felt was missing from BotW was corrected with TotK. The Colgera gave me chills (and accidentally running into it again in The Depths was a terrifying surprise) but the biggie, yall. The first Zelda boss that stuck in my head from childhood and I was disappointed that it wasn't in BotW's world, but now it is.

The goddamn Gohma is back.

Absolutely excellent work there, no notes.

I finally managed to beat a Gloom Hands comfortably enough that the Phantom Ganon that followed didn't one-shot me. That was nice. Felt very accomplished. Still can't get a Gleeok's health down more than 10-20%, so they still terrify me. 😅

So now with the Gibdos and Gleeoks, the devs continue to work my brain over by adding monsters that have only ever appeared in the Decline Timeline (in addition to the Lynels already being in BotW), to further cement my insistence of the placement of BotW/TotK. Too bad they are completely changing what the Imprisoning War was and are seemingly detaching it from Ocarina. 🙃

OMG THEY SNUCK FI'S THEME IN THERE ❤️❤️❤️

I really liked the Thunderhead Isles. That sequence coupled with the Construct Factory actually felt like Old School Zelda. I liked it a lot.

That final battle with Ganondorf felt easier, somehow? Than the Calamity? But more satisfying to me actually. And the victory lap battle with the dragons was neat, but didn't quite hit me like the battle with Dark Beast Ganon. I appreciated how Dark Beast Ganon felt thematically appropriate for the whole game, having the battle take place out in the middle of the vastness of Hyrule Field, and similarly the dragon battle here suits TotK, being higher up in the sky that at any other point in the game, diving all around and looking down at the whole of Hyrule.

Most satisfying though, gotta admit, was diving to catch Zelda. Perfect ending.

SO in many ways TotK fills in a lot of blanks I felt there were in BotW, but also changes things up in ways I don't like as much. Obviously the new enemies, the bosses, a "Dark World" that recontextualizes the map, and the presence of dungeons (even if they aren't exactly what I hoped for) are all things I felt were missing before, but then the traversal being compromised in a way, the reliance on crafting and vehicles, and the story are all rubbing me a bit wrong. So it's weird. I have a hard time right now saying I prefer one to the other because both have ways in which they excel over the other in my eyes. In a perfect (for me) world, the things like a Dark World with new dungeons, big new enemies and minibosses, and a big rug-pull story that involves Ganondorf are all the sorts of things that I was sort of expecting to find after beating the Divine Beasts and getting the Master Sword in BotW. So in a way TotK still functions as a fantastic "second half" that I wanted from the initial game (almost like what they just did with Xenoblade 3 👀), rather than a totally standalone experience. And that's great. I said in the beginning that what I wanted was new reasons to thoroughly explore the same Hyrule, and they definitely gave me that and then some.

For the time being, I feel like Tears of the Kingdom is the better overall game, but I like Breath of the Wild a bit more. Granted, it was probably a year or two before I could admit that I liked BotW more than the other 3D Zeldas, so we'll see how long it takes me to fully come around on TotK. Probably not long. 😅
 
Ok, has anyone noticed in the 2nd Dragon's Tear memory, the one where Zelda, Rauru and Sonia are on the great plateau, you can see the Duelling Peaks in the background, except it is so far back in time it's only 1 single mountain? The river hasn't eroded the mountain in 2 yet. That's a neat detail.
 
Yeah if you follow the newspaper headlines the desert is the last region it will point you toward (Rito, Goron, Zora, then Gerudo).
I found this interesting because doing in the order of the tears memories the game sends you Rito > Goro> Gerudo > Zora. I don't think I ever put attention to the newspapers
 
I want to say Purah pushes you towards Zora before Gerudo, but I'm not certain.

It does seem like any time the game gets an opportunity to list or show the regions/sages one at a time, they go Rito-Gorons-Zora-Gerudo. It happens several times in the story once you've done the four, and is the order they appear on the loading screen and in your inventory.

That said, I did Gerudo third anyway because I wanted to lol.
 
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Having done it within the last week or two, yes, Purah points you to Zora before Gerudo.

On another note, I have to say I don't love the way the Master Sword is utilized, specifically the way it works with fuse. I'd much rather it just power up the Master Sword instead of causing it to change shape the way it does. I've been awaiting using the Master Sword, not the Master Hammer.
 
Having done it within the last week or two, yes, Purah points you to Zora before Gerudo.

On another note, I have to say I don't love the way the Master Sword is utilized, specifically the way it works with fuse. I'd much rather it just power up the Master Sword instead of causing it to change shape the way it does. I've been awaiting using the Master Sword, not the Master Hammer.
I get what you’re saying but also fusing Master Sword + Fierce Deity was how I beat Ganondorf due to its huge reach 😅
 
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At 150 hours I just beat the game this afternoon. I loved every second of it and it sits comfortably at the top of my favorite games of all time.
 
Unless I'm going crazy, that's also the order Purah points you to. Rito > Goron > Gerudo > Zora.
I believe Purah mentions the regional disturbances in the order of Rito > Goron > Zora > Gerudo. That's the order I did because I was trying to follow the game's guidance as closely as possible and checked in with Purah after each regional quest to confirm I was still following that order. I recall she warns that southern Hyrule is more dangerous.
 
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Rolled credits last night, and there's 2 things I can finally ask:

  • What the hell happens if you show up to the final fight with no sages? And you can't damage Ganondorf at all without the master sword, right?
  • Can you beat this game without the glider? Would the final fight make that impossible? (Not to mention how insane the rest of the game would be)
 
Rolled credits last night, and there's 2 things I can finally ask:

  • What the hell happens if you show up to the final fight with no sages? And you can't damage Ganondorf at all without the master sword, right?
  • Can you beat this game without the glider? Would the final fight make that impossible? (Not to mention how insane the rest of the game would be)

You can damage ganondorf without the master sword, but you can't reflect magic without it.

Even if you didn't get the master sword, Link pulls it from the Light dragon when it shows up for the final boss phase.

Yes you can beat the game without the glider. Speedrunners don't bother getting it. Obviously it makes it significantly more difficult in some ways for normal play if you were to try this though.


I wonder… how can Zelda be a blood relative to Sonia if she dies before having any children?

They have children, they're just not shown. We only get very vague flashes of what happened in the past, and it's not clear at all exactly how long Zelda is there before it all goes to hell. The hero from the backstory of BOTW was part zonai and so at least one of Rauru or Mineru have to have had kids, they just weren't shown
 
Rolled credits last night, and there's 2 things I can finally ask:

  • What the hell happens if you show up to the final fight with no sages? And you can't damage Ganondorf at all without the master sword, right?
  • Can you beat this game without the glider? Would the final fight make that impossible? (Not to mention how insane the rest of the game would be)
To add to @Linkstrikesback's answer:
  • The early speedrun route used the paraglider. Soon, it was replaced with just tanking the fall damage using fairies, which was then replaced with a combination of Zonai device flying and a fall damage cancelation glitch
  • If you enter the final area without any sages, you have to beat the Demon King's Army by yourself, then all six bosses (five temple bosses + Phantom Ganon). However, it is possible to skip the boss rush by clipping through a wall. You still have to beat the army, though; Ganondorf won't appear until the army is defeated
  • The Demon Dragon fight has fall damage disabled so this plays out the same, with the exception of the cutscene at the start giving you the Master Sword (which must be used for the final blow)
 
I have an addiction.

I keep going back and watching the Ganondorf sealing cutscene just so I can hear Rauru say "Remember this name" and that masterful version of the main theme kick in.

Same, but for the 2nd memory/opening scene. Mummy Ganondorf asking, "Is that the sword that seals the darkness?" With this determined stare is eerily cool.
 
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totk_heartwarming.png


I have a feeling this shot will become an iconic moment for the series if it isn't already.
 
totk_heartwarming.png


I have a feeling this shot will become an iconic moment for the series if it isn't already.

Yeah, it is this nice contrast to the beginning of the game where Link misses Zelda's hand in that very dark, gloomy place.
At the end he reaches her, surrounded by light.
A bit on the nose, but kind of poetic.
 
I really truly have a feeling we are not done with this version of Hyrule, and with the characters. I really feel a trilogy coming on. Especially after that ending
 
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I still haven't beaten the game and so won't be reading any of the other posts (except for replies to this one), but I need to rant about this.

Among the many improvements this game makes on BotW, the most impactful to me was in how it tells its story. The first time I felt disappointment while playing BotW was when I completed the Great Plateau and the game dumps the entire story on you all at once. You're told everything that happened and told "go here to beat Ganon". I was expecting the same in TotK, but was delighted when, after finishing the Great Sky Island, we're left with more questions than answers.

What happened to Zelda? What happened to the Master Sword? What does it mean to "find her" when she's clearly in the past? Unlike BotW, the air of mystery and sense of intrigue would continue past the tutorial. The story, and not just the gameplay, would serve as motivation for progression. The game also went out of its way to spell out the order of the memories, leaving it up to the player to choose how, and at what pace, the story would unfold. I accepted this option and decided I would check the geoglyphs in order, a little at a time as I completed the main story quests. I would save the final few until after completing all the dungeons. I watched the first 2 on the way to the Wind Temple, growing more curious when Zelda briefly appears to guide us. I worked toward some long-running side quests, many of which, like the newspaper, also pertain the the central question of what happened to Zelda. It was gaming euphoria.

Then I watched the 3rd memory on the way to Eldin.

I don't understand Nintendo's thinking. The memories are literally called "Tears of the Dragon." We're clearly shown a new dragon during the title reveal. The logo has dragons in an ouroboros arrangement. Did they serious think they could mention becoming immortal through dragonification without immediately giving away everything to anyone with the deductive capacity of an 10 year old?

I immediately knew the dragon in the sky was Zelda. It sucked all the enthusiasm out of me like a punch in the guy. Did they seriously just ruin the main hook of the story with that kind of "hint" in only the 3rd memory?

Later on, I was completing a shrine quest in the sky and the new dragon just happened to be very close to me. Knowing it was Zelda, I glided closer to it and saw the sword on its head. Now, before even completing my second dungeon, I've got the Master Sword, have seen the final memory, and no longer have the main mystery of the story as a motivating factor for playing.

It's so disappointing because I know how satisfying it would have been to experience that kind of reveal toward the end of the game, having spent my time slowing consuming the story all while wondering what happened to Zelda and the Master Sword. And giving it away was so completely unnecessary. All the memory had to do was say that consuming a secret stone would make one immortal, but that it would have severe consequences. It would be the same foreboding moment that hints that Zelda may have done something drastic to get back to the present without ruining the story's main twist.

Nintendo wanted players to have the option to find the Master Sword early, or even stumble upon it. I get that. But by tying the Master Sword to the main hook of the story, they also gave players the freedom to completely ruin the story for themselves. If they at least hadn't given the "hint" in the third memory the odds of that happening would be extremely small.

It's a major blemish on what was shaping up to be quite possibly my favorite game ever. I'm still enjoying it a lot, and there's plenty of motivating factors for playing other than the story, but it just sucks to think about how truly special this entire playthrough could have been.

I agree with you. Originally I rationalised it as Nintendo needing to signpost draconification early on so that it doesn't just come out the blue later, but you're right they could have hinted at it without spelling it out completely. I loved the story in TOTK but Nintendo should have gated the reveal around Zelda/the Master Sword. There's definitely an ideal way of experiencing the game, not necessary of course and people will find their own fun in doing things their way, but with TOTK being a lot more story-focused than BOTW, I feel like the game would have benefited with a slightly tighter structure.
 
The roots, then.

You know, in the depths.
It seems to me that when Ganondorf got the secret stone in the memories, he was heading towards the nexus point of all the roots. Rauru and co fight him just before he gets there. Was this place already excavated by the Zonai I wonder? They must have known about it, as did Ganondorf.
When he revives in the present, Ganondorf again heads to the nexus, and that is where we fight him.

I think. Am I seeing all this right, idk.
Is it anything? Probably not.
 
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Can we all agree that from a narrative point of view, the story improves immensely compared to BOTW? Or maybe I’m just biased because I also preferred TOTK’s storyline over BOTW.

Can't agree with that at all. For a number of reasons. I think the storyline in Breath of the Wild is much more coherent and focused. I think the memories are significantly better, and don't lose anything at all from being experienced out-of-sequence. It features more interesting characters and relationships (Zelda in particular, her relationship to her father, her developing relationship with Link... But also, the champions of old and new, who are a bit one-note, yes, but still better than Rauru and Sonia who are basically no-note). Breath of the Wild doesn't make you watch almost the exact same cutscene four different times, except with different characters saying the exact same words (which, again, speaks to the lack of character going on here - the ancient sages are just masked nobodies). I think Breath of the Wild is also just more intriguing and mysterious - you get the sense that you're only seeing a partial glimpse of a much greater whole, which is something I really appreciate.

The themes of Breath of the Wild also just resonate with me more than Tears of the Kingdom. On the personal level, the failure to live up to your ambition and the redemption of that failure. On the broader level, life moving on after tragedy. I think Breath of the Wild just has more to say. I hate to be reductive, but Tears of the Kingdom just feels like the power of friendship, which I am absolutely not here for.

Even if we're just talking about how the story is told, I prefer the "go look for it yourself" approach, and especially think that Tears of the Kingdom really suffers from being unable to sequence its events. Or having a story that needed a specific sequence, in a game that has no specific sequence. Where Tears of the Kingdom excels, on other hand, is those moments where it tells its story through gameplay. Even with meta-moments like Ganondorf's healthbar. The entire end sequence is pure magic, you're absolutely right. Even though I didn't care for the story, I was 100% engaged because the way it was being told was incredible in that moment. So they're capable of doing great things, but that just makes the cutscene gruel even more baffling.
 
One thing that sort of confuses me is how the descendant characters (gerudo, zora, rito, and goron) were given the bare minimum in terms of characterization. In their fight with Ganondorf, they had this all-star team with Rauru, Mineru, and Zelda, and 4 other faceless members. And I'm sure a lot of people were annoyed having to listen to the exact same Imprisoning War story 4 times.

I don't think any of them needed extensive backstories, but some more individuality would have been nice. Maybe they didn't want to rehash the champions from Breath of the Wild? That's the only reason I can think of.

I suppose they thought each dungeon might have been the player's first, so had to detail the Imprisoning War each time, but you're right, they could have added some variation based on each sage.

I have an addiction.

I keep going back and watching the Ganondorf sealing cutscene just so I can hear Rauru say "Remember this name" and that masterful version of the main theme kick in.
Yeah I loved that, I keep watching it too. Same with the final shot of the epilogue after Zelda says "Stand with me."

Can we all agree that from a narrative point of view, the story improves immensely compared to BOTW? Or maybe I’m just biased because I also preferred TOTK’s storyline over BOTW.

Also the final batte was 100% more epic than Calamity Ganon.

The story is one of my favourite things about the game tbh, loved it.

the ancient sages are just masked nobodies

They're masked nobodies because they don't need to be anything else. The story isn't about them, it's about Rauru, Sonia, Zelda, Mineru and the present day sages. Adding more and more characters into a storyline doesn't automatically make it better. You yourself praise BOTW for being 'focused'.
 
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They're masked nobodies because they don't need to be anything else. The story isn't about them, it's about Rauru, Sonia, Zelda, Mineru and the present day sages. Adding more and more characters into a storyline doesn't automatically make it better. You yourself praise BOTW for being 'focused'.
You're missing the forest for the trees here:
We have four interminable, near-identical cutscenes that revolve around these masked nobodies. They're at least three minutes each.
Why is the game spending that amount of time on characters that aren't characters? If you're going to spend the time, make it time well spent.

Refer to the very end of the game, where Zelda looks at Link and the champions vowing their loyalty to her. She flashes back, to the sages of the past, as if they mean anything at all. Which they don't! It's like, remember that scene at the end of the Champion's Ballad DLC where all the champions are together and they take a picture? It's like that, but if that was the only time you ever saw those champions. This is part of what I mean by lack of focus. If they don't matter, they shouldn't be there. If they matter, they should be interesting. Which not even Rauru, Sonia or Mineru remotely are imo.
 
You're missing the forest for the trees here:
We have four interminable, near-identical cutscenes that revolve around these masked nobodies. They're at least three minutes each.
Why is the game spending that amount of time on characters that aren't characters? If you're going to spend the time, make it time well spent.

Refer to the very end of the game, where Zelda looks at Link and the champions vowing their loyalty to her. She flashes back, to the sages of the past, as if they mean anything at all. Which they don't! It's like, remember that scene at the end of the Champion's Ballad DLC where all the champions are together and they take a picture? It's like that, but if that was the only time you ever saw those champions. This is part of what I mean by lack of focus. If they don't matter, they shouldn't be there. If they matter, they should be interesting. Which not even Rauru, Sonia or Mineru remotely are imo.

They wanted the focus to be on the present day sages, not learning about what a bunch of ancient sages enjoy doing in their spare time or had for breakfast. You can argue the merits of spending so long on the same cutscene over and over, but the lack of characterisation for the old guys isn't a problem at all imo, I much prefer a tighter number of characters in a story. The quick flashback to the pledge back in time was weird though, I'll give you.
 
They wanted the focus to be on the present day sages, not learning about what a bunch of ancient sages enjoy doing in their spare time or had for breakfast. You can argue the merits of spending so long on the same cutscene over and over, but the lack of characterisation for the old guys isn't a problem at all imo, I much prefer a tighter number of characters in a story. The quick flashback to the pledge back in time was weird though, I'll give you.
I think you're still misunderstanding me.
I'm not asking what they like for breakfast, I'm asking what they're doing in the game in the first place if they're not going to be characters.
If you gave me the pen they wouldn't be there at all, or would exist in a Wink Waker Past Sages capacity at most.
But if I have the pen and I'm told to make a bunch of cutscenes at the end of each dungeon that are narrated by these nobody characters telling their side of events, I'm not going to make them nobody characters.

It's worth mentioning because I think it speaks to a larger issue with the writing, which is that it is far more concerned with plot than characters. Which I think runs counter to its themes of vows, bonds, relationships, community.
 
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Can't agree with that at all. For a number of reasons. I think the storyline in Breath of the Wild is much more coherent and focused. I think the memories are significantly better, and don't lose anything at all from being experienced out-of-sequence. It features more interesting characters and relationships (Zelda in particular, her relationship to her father, her developing relationship with Link... But also, the champions of old and new, who are a bit one-note, yes, but still better than Rauru and Sonia who are basically no-note). Breath of the Wild doesn't make you watch almost the exact same cutscene four different times, except with different characters saying the exact same words (which, again, speaks to the lack of character going on here - the ancient sages are just masked nobodies). I think Breath of the Wild is also just more intriguing and mysterious - you get the sense that you're only seeing a partial glimpse of a much greater whole, which is something I really appreciate.

The themes of Breath of the Wild also just resonate with me more than Tears of the Kingdom. On the personal level, the failure to live up to your ambition and the redemption of that failure. On the broader level, life moving on after tragedy. I think Breath of the Wild just has more to say. I hate to be reductive, but Tears of the Kingdom just feels like the power of friendship, which I am absolutely not here for.

Even if we're just talking about how the story is told, I prefer the "go look for it yourself" approach, and especially think that Tears of the Kingdom really suffers from being unable to sequence its events. Or having a story that needed a specific sequence, in a game that has no specific sequence. Where Tears of the Kingdom excels, on other hand, is those moments where it tells its story through gameplay. Even with meta-moments like Ganondorf's healthbar. The entire end sequence is pure magic, you're absolutely right. Even though I didn't care for the story, I was 100% engaged because the way it was being told was incredible in that moment. So they're capable of doing great things, but that just makes the cutscene gruel even more baffling.

Great reply. I have written here before about how I think BOTW's story is unfairly maligned so it's nice to find someone else who appreciates it at least a bit more than its reputation suggests.

I will add that the grand payoff in TOTK with press R (hold) it was more BOTW that was getting the payoff as it did the bulk of emotional heavy lifting as far as Link wanting to find Zelda (rather than taking it on as a bounty).

Can we all agree that from a narrative point of view, the story improves immensely compared to BOTW? Or maybe I’m just biased because I also preferred TOTK’s storyline over BOTW.

Also the final batte was 100% more epic than Calamity Ganon.

"Can we all agree with my opinion" is a rather obnoxious way to give an opinion. The implicit dismissal of the validity of differing opinions (hence why you expect everyone to agree with you) is going to rub those do agree up the wrong way as well as maybe a few who do agree.

They wanted the focus to be on the present day sages, not learning about what a bunch of ancient sages enjoy doing in their spare time or had for breakfast. You can argue the merits of spending so long on the same cutscene over and over, but the lack of characterisation for the old guys isn't a problem at all imo, I much prefer a tighter number of characters in a story. The quick flashback to the pledge back in time was weird though, I'll give you.

The scene of them pledging fealty to Rauru was very weird. You have these characters all wearing weird BDSM amiibo masks who silently receive magic doodads from Rauru who then proceed to recite a pledge of fealty to the king in unison like drones. I thought for a moment Rauru was mind-controlling them. I found this memory early so I thought for a while there was going to be a plot twist where it turned out Rauru was actually a bad guy. Maybe Ganon is the one who gets hijacked this time.
 
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Playing Breath of the Wild right before Tears, and then both Skyward Sword and Twilight Princess right after, really went a long way in showing just how weak the characters in Tears are. Zelda’s never been a narrative powerhouse so a weak story doesn’t really bother me, but I’ve always been able to remember the big character moments, and that’s been enough. Groose’s heel turn, Colin saving Beth, Sheik being Zelda, damn near anything to do with Midna, etc.

The only takeaway I got from Tears is Zelda turning into a dragon. And yeah, that’s a really cool moment, but I feel like there should’ve been more for a game this long. Add in the structural mess of the narrative itself, and Tears ended up being one of my least favorite Zelda stories in retrospect. Breath of the Wild’s story certainly wasn’t perfect, but it had me a lot more invested.
Idk the moments of Link after each dungeon with the sages were pretty memorable for me.
 
Can we all agree that from a narrative point of view, the story improves immensely compared to BOTW? Or maybe I’m just biased because I also preferred TOTK’s storyline over BOTW.

Also the final batte was 100% more epic than Calamity Ganon.
I would say it’s a bit of both.

For me, BotW’s story was more focused on Zelda’s character development which made its memories more interesting in some ways. So in terms of the story the memories themselves tell, I think BotW’s are better.

But I think Tears is an improvement in somehow making the plot feel more active despite the similar structure to BotW. The game feels less like an epilogue, and although you technically are viewing the past with the memories, it feels more like they are running parallel to what Link is doing because of our present day Zelda being there. And then the past memories and present adventure intersect at that pivotal moment where you see the final memory and claim the master sword from the light dragon, which becomes an all-timer moment on the level of Sheik being revealed as Zelda.

And then combined with the dungeon segments being about awakening the new champions as sages instead of just claiming powers from a ghost, it definitely contributed to a feeling that Tears’ plot is more active in the present day than BotW’s “you’re playing the very final chapter of this story that for the most part already happened” feel.

There’s flaws like the repeated dungeon cutscenes and how viewing the memories out of order can cheapen the big reveal, but yeah, I definitely think Tears “fixed” that complaint about BotW.
 


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