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StarTopic Nintendo Switch Online + Expansion Pack |ST| New 2024 Poll Up

How will Nintendo handle the NSO with the launch of the Switch 2

  • Everything on the service becomes playable on launch day of the new system.

    Votes: 166 77.6%

  • A slow roll out with a promise to move everything over within 12 months from launch day

    Votes: 26 12.1%

  • LOL Nintendo is going to start all over with just NES games in late 2025

    Votes: 20 9.3%

  • Nothing will transfer over because the Switch 2 won't be backwards compatible with the Switch 1

    Votes: 2 0.9%
  • Total voters
    214
Reader mode
dingbat said:
I mean, not really. Discrediting the other issues shown because of that is about as meaningful as including the bug itself as a demonstration of the issues. They then go to show problems with the online, texture scaling problems and emulation inaccuracies. That's all relevant.
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They show this:

659Bp5b.png


Which is someone with ZERO bars of connection quality, and a warning at the bottom of the screen, having a rough time with online. Shocking, a game that uses online systems doesn't perform well when person is barely connected.

Meanwhile I had full bars playing with my friends last night and we didn't have a single stutter in the several hours we played.
 
The service is definitely subpar but it's kinda sad seeing people trying to make it seem worse than it is. And people who don't bother to look a little deeper into things will believe it as well.
 
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Robin64 said:
They show this:

659Bp5b.png


Which is someone with ZERO bars of connection quality, and a warning at the bottom of the screen, having a rough time with online. Shocking, a game that uses online systems doesn't perform well when person is barely connected.

Meanwhile I had full bars playing with my friends last night and we didn't have a single stutter in the several hours we played.
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The internet was invented for people to be upset about things that aren't true.

Worst invention ever.
 
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Your online experience depends entirely on your internet quality. That's it. It's entirely p2p, if you play with people with good internet over wired, you'll have a mostly flawless experience like i did. If you play over bad wifi, you'll have a poor experience.
 
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dingbat said:
That's great but it won't be everyone's experience. Neither will that other video, to be fair.
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Eh, you can't play online with shitty internet, it's not a news nor every game problem, l'ld say. If net code is bad, is bad for everyone
 
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Zelda speedrunner ZFG (the one who debunked that wrong post claiming that "the water always looked bad in the Japanese version" which is completely untrue) made a video analyzing the differences of the switch version. The input lag and controls "feeling different" is a bit nebulous and hard to test, so I'm not sure what should be done there other than to try and fix input lag which seems to be specifically affecting OOT more than others. The fog section has a lot of comparison screenshots though, and this is the #1 thing I hope they fix if they can. I timestamped that section here.

I'd also like to say that I had a full lobby of 4 playing N64 online last night with essentially 0 issues! We are all based in the US though to be clear, but I do think that this is overblown and should work well for those in the same region with good connections. Not to say more improvements couldn't be made on that front as well though.
 
Despite all the issues, I’m having fun playing these N64 games for the first time in 720p (legally, at least). I haven’t tried online though.

I’ve played OoT up to the 2nd dungeon now and while there is an input lag for sure, I can live with it. What IS annoying though is that atrocious audio delay. I’m so used to playing the ocarina songs with the C buttons and now I can replicate that by holding ZR and using the face buttons. However, as I input the notes (quite rapidly, a muscle memory thing), the delay is very noticeable as I hear every note a button too late. I can also hear it with every slash, when collecting rupees/hearts/seeds and whatnot, but the ocarina thing is the most annoying one. I hope they do something about it.
 
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Hylianhero777 said:
The input lag and controls "feeling different" is a bit nebulous and hard to test
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Since I seem to be the resident guy for this now (maybe I really should mod one of my 64 controllers with an LED to show button presses lol), it looks likely to me that about 75% of the input delay is from the game itself - assuming (and this admittedly is a rather large assumption) that Majora's Mask has comparable delay to Ocarina of Time; I'm measuring about 140-150ms of delay on Majora's Mask (I unfortunately don't own an Ocarina of Time cartridge). 200ms as he claims (I'll verify that myself later) is pretty bad - but I think it's at a weird point where he doesn't really notice the 150ms delay because he's so used to it (you can certainly notice that if you're looking for it), but push it up to 200ms and you notice it all at once, if that makes sense.

I think part of the issue here is also people playing these games on modern TVs for the first time; if you're lucky, your set only adds 15ms or so of delay. Many people are playing on displays adding 30ms or more. I imagine quite a few people who played the game on Wii VC were still using a CRT, and Wii U wasn't all that popular.

Fwiw 50ms of added delay (from the emulator + Switch screen combined, since I don't have a way of measuring the latter) is consistent with what I measured from Yoshi's Story. I believe I have a friend with OoT; maybe I'll convince him to lend it to me.

(As an aside - if my measurement is accurate, I'm amused by the shot he fired at Smash Ultimate; that "only" has 100ms of delay. Not only was his comparison way off, it's lower than the 64 Zeldas on OG hardware.)
 
lemonfresh said:
A compilation of some of the issues
Click to expand...

I hate videos like this because there's clearly a lot of disingenuous shit going on in this clip to get some Twitter cred and it just makes the discussion even more muddy. I'm at the point where unless I'm personally experiencing something game breaking, which is not some speed run trick, I honestly don't care at this point.
 
I will add that the control sensitivity thing is accurate, though I don't think I'd say aiming is "awful" - not with how large the arrow hitboxes are to begin with. I'll be curious to see whether they at least got it right with the N64 controller (got an order in yesterday!); having a stick that physically feels the same but doesn't respond the same would be disappointing.
 
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Jersh said:
Since I seem to be the resident guy for this now (maybe I really should mod one of my 64 controllers with an LED to show button presses lol), it looks likely to me that about 75% of the input delay is from the game itself - assuming (and this admittedly is a rather large assumption) that Majora's Mask has comparable delay to Ocarina of Time; I'm measuring about 140-150ms of delay on Majora's Mask (I unfortunately don't own an Ocarina of Time cartridge). 200ms as he claims (I'll verify that myself later) is pretty bad - but I think it's at a weird point where he doesn't really notice the 150ms delay because he's so used to it (you can certainly notice that if you're looking for it), but push it up to 200ms and you notice it all at once, if that makes sense.

I think part of the issue here is also people playing these games on modern TVs for the first time; if you're lucky, your set only adds 15ms or so of delay. Many people are playing on displays adding 30ms or more. I imagine quite a few people who played the game on Wii VC were still using a CRT, and Wii U wasn't all that popular.

Fwiw 50ms of added delay (from the emulator + Switch screen combined, since I don't have a way of measuring the latter) is consistent with what I measured from Yoshi's Story. I believe I have a friend with OoT; maybe I'll convince him to lend it to me.

(As an aside - if my measurement is accurate, I'm amused by the shot he fired at Smash Ultimate; that "only" has 100ms of delay. Not only was his comparison way off, it's lower than the 64 Zeldas on OG hardware.)
Click to expand...
From what I’ve seen it looks like OoT has 2 frames of delay. Now this is 2 frames at 20 FPS which is not the same as 2 frames at 30 or 60 FPS. That being said 2 frames of lag on an emulator is pretty good response time it’s just that OoT is a “slower” game so you feel more delay.
Hylianhero777 said:
Zelda speedrunner ZFG (the one who debunked that wrong post claiming that "the water always looked bad in the Japanese version" which is completely untrue) made a video analyzing the differences of the switch version. The input lag and controls "feeling different" is a bit nebulous and hard to test, so I'm not sure what should be done there other than to try and fix input lag which seems to be specifically affecting OOT more than others. The fog section has a lot of comparison screenshots though, and this is the #1 thing I hope they fix if they can. I timestamped that section here.

I'd also like to say that I had a full lobby of 4 playing N64 online last night with essentially 0 issues! We are all based in the US though to be clear, but I do think that this is overblown and should work well for those in the same region with good connections. Not to say more improvements couldn't be made on that front as well though.
Click to expand...

The fog issue is universal across all games. People noticed it in Mario 64 on 3D All Stars but it was shrugged off because that game doesn’t have that many fog effects. Now it’s evident it’s an emulator issue affecting all games. I really hope they can fix it. I also hope it wasn’t an intentional choice because someone went “you know what turn the fog off because it won’t affect game performance and it’s clearer!”
 
There is some humor in how the running joke with N64 games used to be how foggy some of them were and now we’re clamoring for the fog to be back 😸
 
TurtleRock said:
From what I’ve seen it looks like OoT has 2 frames of delay. Now this is 2 frames at 20 FPS which is not the same as 2 frames at 30 or 60 FPS. That being said 2 frames of lag on an emulator is pretty good response time it’s just that OoT is a “slower” game so you feel more delay.
Click to expand...
Delay added by an emulator is generally consistent in terms of milliseconds, not frames; delay added to a 20 FPS game shouldn't be any different from one running at 60 FPS. The difference comes from each game's inherit delay.

Which brings to my next point - two total frames of delay for an emulated 60 FPS game is nigh impossible without run-ahead, because the games themselves tend to have at least that much. Super Mario World on a SNES displaying to a CRT is known to average 3.3 frames of latency in a best-case scenario (come to think of it, I should calibrate my CRT results against this). Super Metroid does about 2 frames. Emulator + display lag is only ever going to add to this without advanced techniques.
 
Jersh said:
Delay added by an emulator is generally consistent in terms of milliseconds, not frames; delay added to a 20 FPS game shouldn't be any different from one running at 60 FPS. The difference comes from each game's inherit delay.

Which brings to my next point - two total frames of delay for an emulated 60 FPS game is nigh impossible without run-ahead, because the games themselves tend to have at least that much. Super Mario World on a SNES displaying to a CRT is known to average 3.3 frames of latency in a best-case scenario (come to think of it, I should calibrate my CRT results against this). Super Metroid does about 2 frames. Emulator + display lag is only ever going to add to this without advanced techniques.
Click to expand...
Sorry I meant that there is a 2 frame difference between OoT on an N64 using a CRT monitor and NSO. Not that there were only 2 frames of delay in OoT period. If that makes sense. 1 frame at 20 fps is about 40-50 milliseconds. Which is consistent with your results give or take a couple of milliseconds.

You measure MM at 140-150 MS and that's coming from the game itself in the best conditions. The video claims 200-220 milliseconds of delay for NSO OoT. That roughly averages out to a 2 frame difference at 20 fps.
 
TurtleRock said:
Sorry I meant that there is a 2 frame difference between OoT on an N64 using a CRT monitor and NSO. Not that there were only 2 frames of delay in OoT period. If that makes sense. 1 frame at 20 fps is about 40-50 milliseconds. Which is consistent with your results give or take a couple of milliseconds.

You measure MM at 140-150 MS and that's coming from the game itself in the best conditions. The video claims 200-220 milliseconds of delay for NSO OoT. That roughly averages out to a 2 frame difference at 20 fps.
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Ah, gotcha. I'd like to record my own results for OoT, given I no nothing about the test the video used. I'd also like to compare my CRT running SMW to documented results online, since that game is somewhat easy to find good data on.

But I suspect it'll actually be very close to 1 frame of delay; my testing thus far suggests a ~50ms difference across the board for the NSO N64 app + Switch screen, which is exactly one frame in OoT.
 
Abzeronow said:
MVG has a video about N64's emulation. He hopes Nintendo does some patches soon.

Click to expand...

This was really interesting and basically confirms what I've been thinking, but it's good to have a properly informed opinion from MVG. I'm not playing Ocarina of Time yet - they should patch it.

There are definite issues which Nintendo should fix - especially in Ocarina of Time - but the emulator functions well in other cases, even if some irritating issues persists (borders!) and one major issues continues (bloody button mapping, Nintendo!).
 
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Robin64 said:
My friend and I played loads last night, he's about 50 miles away and our connection was always full bars. We began to forget we weren't even sitting next to each other after the initial slightly input latency was gotten used to. It's very good with a good connection.
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That is awesome to hear, thank you!
 
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Yeah, in the last I didn’t care about button mapping because for NES you had two buttons and then for SNES of course, it was 1 to 1.

But the N64 controller is such an oddity, that it really needs it. It’s great having the C stick on the analog stick, but for Sin and Punishment, both analog sticks control the reticle. I’d rather have the dpad mapped to the left stick.
 
BassForever said:
What SP versions do you expect we'll see on N64 online? My hope is we see a Mario Tennis with everything unlocked to help get around the transfer pack issue.
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-Mario Tennis and Golf with all unlocked characters
-Majora's Mask all masls unlocked
-Banjo Kazooie final stage with all music notes
 
MondoMega said:
I think those guesses are pretty good! I do think that 1080, Excitebike 64 and Harvest Moon 64 will return from Wii U VC though, so i'd make a few changes to fit those in.
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Completely forgot about Harvest Moon 64, that's definitely coming back! And I'll admit I tried to be a tad more favorable to 3rd Party games here, since both Wii and Wii U VCs were so lacking of options.
 
Clix said:
Yeah, in the last I didn’t care about button mapping because for NES you had two buttons and then for SNES of course, it was 1 to 1.

But the N64 controller is such an oddity, that it really needs it. It’s great having the C stick on the analog stick, but for Sin and Punishment, both analog sticks control the reticle. I’d rather have the dpad mapped to the left stick.
Click to expand...

I was so confused reading about people struggling with S&P's controls because I just assumed that everyone would use the right analogue stick to aim and the d-pad for movement. Now I see why the standard control scheme might be an issue.
 
Dardan Sandiego said:
I was so confused reading about people struggling with S&P's controls because I just assumed that everyone would use the right analogue stick to aim and the d-pad for movement. Now I see why the standard control scheme might be an issue.
Click to expand...
It’s the placement of the dpad on Switch that gets me. I much prefer the Wii U with both sticks at the bottom lol
 
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MondoMega said:
It's very possible that they add more games out of alphabetical order following OoT. SNES games were initially added in an alphabetical batch and then they just threw them in whatever order (presumably when they got permission to use them).


Yes; there are still a lot of gaps left open for both, especially SNES.

NES carried over its game ID system from the FC/NES Mini, so it isn't 100% reliable for NSO as some of the IDs are likely for games that will never end up on the service. It's fun to see how many games they presumably considered for the mini console but didn't make the cut though!

SNES restarted its ID system for NSO and didn't carry over anything from the SFC/SNES Mini, so that's a lot more reliable in terms of games specifically tested for NSO.


I think those guesses are pretty good! I do think that 1080, Excitebike 64 and Harvest Moon 64 will return from Wii U VC though, so i'd make a few changes to fit those in.
Click to expand...

How would harvest moon 64 work? What would it be called?
 
Question I have now is when and how Nintendo add GameBoy. My assumption is it comes to the expansion pack and not the base subscription, but I don't know on the timing. You'd think with a more expensive sub they'd be willing to offer more benefits more often, but who knows, with Nintendo?
 
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It seems like a lot of the Genesis games are very arcade-y, which in general I don’t get on well with. I don’t have the patience for them.
 
I hope they patch in button remapping and the controller pak. Otherwise we won't be able to truly experience Quest 64 when it launches on the service.
 
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Red Monster said:
It seems like a lot of the Genesis games are very arcade-y, which in general I don’t get on well with. I don’t have the patience for them.
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Depends upon what you mean by arcady, but I think the standout games that don't feel like that are

Castlevania Bloodlines
Contra Hard Corp
Shining Force
Phantasy Star 4
Ecco the Dolphin
Ristar
Sonic 2
 
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TurtleRock said:
The fog issue is universal across all games. People noticed it in Mario 64 on 3D All Stars but it was shrugged off because that game doesn’t have that many fog effects. Now it’s evident it’s an emulator issue affecting all games. I really hope they can fix it. I also hope it wasn’t an intentional choice because someone went “you know what turn the fog off because it won’t affect game performance and it’s clearer!”
Click to expand...
Star Fox 64 has noticeable heavy fog, is it still worse than the original version?
 
VHS said:
All of the crashes? Should watch the video before saying that imo
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As i have already said, the mere fact that THAT crash is the first thing in the video invalidates the video itself.

If the first crash showcased is a bug that already existed in the original, how much of the rest of the video is forced or fabricated?
 
Quoted by: VHS
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Reinhard Schneider said:
As i have already said, the mere fact that THAT crash is the first thing in the video invalidates the video itself.

If the first crash showcased is a bug that already existed in the original, how much of the rest of the video is forced or fabricated?
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Invalidates the whole thing?

The MVG video showcases a lot of issues too. Input lag, horrible fog rendering, very poor online implementation (even with ethernet and fiber!!).

Not sure why this is the hill you're trying to die on... this is completely unacceptable for a "premium service".
 
The criticisms are valid. Some of the reactions are over the top and overly angry, but I'm perfectly fine with the outcry in general, because I want this service to be great. Lots of people think Nintendo is completely insular and doesn't listen to criticism, but that's mostly nonsense. They want millions of subscribers, they're going to listen to feedback and improve things over time.
 
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