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Discussion Where the hell is 2D Mario??

Kingpin Rogers said:
They probably view nsmbu deluxe as new enough so they haven't had to prioritise it. 10 years isn't that long either tbf, wasn't it like 14 before the original nsmb came out? Maybe they'll push it to 15 years this time haha.
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Good q! I was thinking about this recently too. Excluding remakes and re-releases, it was August 1995 (Yoshi's Island) to May 2006 (NSMB), so 10 years and 9 months. NSMBU came out in November 2012. It's been 9 years and 9 months, excluding NSLU in June 2013. Which is kinda murky in terms of whether to count it.
 
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Tentacle-tropes said:
I’ve never really bought into that report that sales was the reason they stopped . My guess is bandwidth issues in general caused them to drop early, same reason why AC didn’t get more. If Nintendo wants to support these games long term then they should probably start making a dedicated team for gaas asset creation.
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If I remember rightly Imran suggested that both factors were at play: the game wasn't as successful as Nintendo anticipated and other projects needed more resources and were judged as a higher priority as the pandemic crunch hit.
 
MisterSpo said:
If I remember rightly Imran suggested that both factors were at play: the game wasn't as successful as Nintendo anticipated and other projects needed more resources and were judged as a higher priority as the pandemic crunch hit.
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Right I just don’t entirely believe the first part as a reason. Had the pandemic not hit the game would have gotten a decent amount of updates before moving on.
 
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Barring the unlikely production of Super Mario World 3 or Super Mario Bros 5 in which, perhaps, the series becomes a platforming-focused Metroidvania, it's hard to see where 2D Mario can be taken to exceed the standard set by Yoshi's Island or Super Mario World, so perhaps it's best to farm 2D Mario out to some little backwater indie studio to get a little three-hour game going so that people can have their 2D Mario fix.
 
Mario Maker was not that long ago. They probably want to space things out. Especially since NSMBU is still selling.
 
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Every franchise that got Wii U ported with no new sequel on Switch is approaching the 10 year mark since its last entry. This year its 2D Mario, next year its Pikmin, the year after its DK, and so on.
 
Chaos Theory said:
Barring the unlikely production of Super Mario World 3 or Super Mario Bros 5 in which, perhaps, the series becomes a platforming-focused Metroidvania, it's hard to see where 2D Mario can be taken to exceed the standard set by Yoshi's Island or Super Mario World, so perhaps it's best to farm 2D Mario out to some little backwater indie studio to get a little three-hour game going so that people can have their 2D Mario fix.
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I'd love to see what an indie developer would do with the series but I think it's there's no precedent for Nintendo farming out a mainline entry of their most successful series to an indie.
 
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Whatever they come up with they need to restore the reputation of 2D Mario. People ask for a new 2D Mario but not many actually ask for "NSMB", that brand just doesn't have a good reception with fans and critics any more. (Possibly with casuals too with 3D Mario finally growing beyond 2D Mario but that could be too soon to say since we havent had a new non-Maker entry in a while)
 
BassForever said:
Why would they distance themselves from a series that is full of successful and well received games?
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Doing something different isn't exactly spitting on it. They had four games with very similar look/feel over the course of ~7 years, then took a decade off. It should be expected that the next thing will be something different again.
 
I think we will get a new Mario Platformer ahead of the movie, I just don’t know if it’ll be 2D, 3D, or some kind of mix.

For anyone that hasn’t played them, I’d really recommend checking out Mario Maker 3DS’ campaign and if you have a Wii U downloading Super Mario Advance 4 Super Mario Bros 3 for the World E levels before the eshops shut down. They are two lesser played 2D Mario games and are both very good. I especially dug World E. You might hear e reader levels and just think its a small gimmick. Nope. It’s a truly exceptional set of new levels and there’s a great amount of them.
 
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xghost777 said:
I think we will get a new Mario Platformer ahead of the movie, I just don’t know if it’ll be 2D, 3D, or some kind of mix.
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I think it's gonna be 2D Mario since they won't release 3D Mario the same quarter/semester as 3D Zelda.
Movie is April or just "spring"? I think it would be something like 2D Mario in January or June again with Zelda in March.
 
Mario Maker IS 2D Mario, and Sturgeon's Law player-made levels don't change that.

That said, I do think NSMB has untapped potential as the "bridge" between the spin-offs and the main series. I unironically want to see NSMB continued, but with a bunch of additional playable characters like Toadette, Captain Toad, Green Yoshi, E. Gadd, Wario, Waluigi, Peach, Daisy, Birdo, Donkey Kong and his crew, Rosalina, the WarioWare crew, even some villains like Bowser Jr., the Koopalings, and Kamek. They can even be skins and I'd still love them.
 
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xghost777 said:
I think we will get a new Mario Platformer ahead of the movie, I just don’t know if it’ll be 2D, 3D, or some kind of mix.

For anyone that hasn’t played them, I’d really recommend checking out Mario Maker 3DS’ campaign and if you have a Wii U downloading Super Mario Advance 4 Super Mario Bros 3 for the World E levels before the eshops shut down. They are two lesser played 2D Mario games and are both very good. I especially dug World E. You might hear e reader levels and just think its a small gimmick. Nope. It’s a truly exceptional set of new levels and there’s a great amount of them.
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Thanks so much for this reminder @xghost777! I keep meaning to get SMA4 on Wii U. I have the game and an eReader but only a couple of the cards. I'm so glad they included all of the levels in the re-release.

I also want to second your SMM 3DS recommendation. I've only played half or so but the campaign is wonderful and engaging, especially going for the two secret goals on each level. It's like having the (IMO incredible) NSMBU challenge mode integrated into the main game.
 
They can take as long as they want as far as I'm concerned, as long as we don't get another NSMB (wah!)
 
If they were still prototyping just to make sure the game didn't feel like another NSMB game I really wouldn't mind. Sorry
 
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While there are specifics in mechanics and structure of NSMB that makes it NSMB, I think for the grand majority of people, making the graphics look nicer, swapping in new level mechanics and themes, and having a newer and more exciting soundtrack would be enough to get away from the NSMB stink. But of course the next game should do more than that. Does Mario have any new moves? What do the power ups look like? Do they retain the same world map progression, or do they try something else? The progression from 1 to 3 to World featured new mechanics for Mario, new powers, and different iterations of game progression from strictly linear to a more open map. For a subsequent 2D Mario to feel truly "new," it should follow in that lineage.
 
You can’t talk about how long it’s been since New Super Mario Bros. U without accounting for Maker and Run; from a development standpoint (and also by Nintendo’s own classifications of mainline Mario) those are what the series has been up to since 2012.

When will the next 2D Mario arrive? I dunno, give it another year or two; they hired for a 2D game in Kyoto shortly after Maker 2 after all.
 
VolcanicDynamo said:
While there are specifics in mechanics and structure of NSMB that makes it NSMB, I think for the grand majority of people, making the graphics look nicer, swapping in new level mechanics and themes, and having a newer and more exciting soundtrack would be enough to get away from the NSMB stink. But of course the next game should do more than that. Does Mario have any new moves? What do the power ups look like? Do they retain the same world map progression, or do they try something else? The progression from 1 to 3 to World featured new mechanics for Mario, new powers, and different iterations of game progression from strictly linear to a more open map. For a subsequent 2D Mario to feel truly "new," it should follow in that lineage.
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World to NSMB1 still iterated on that progression I feel. Mario got quite a bit of his 3D moves, though the progression went from World's heavy branching to NSMB1's mostly linear with some branching.

Maybe a new NSMB game could add even more of Mario's 3D moves like the sideflip and backflip, especially since both originated in DK94 IIRC. But I still think the best route for a new 2D Mario is to have a "spin-off" cast of characters above all else.
 
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We'll see a new 2D Mario after Mario Kart 9. Both MK8 and Mario Deluxe games keep selling so these are extremely profitable games for them.
 
beaglor said:
Hope they go back to the drawing board. Series has felt like it was made with a kitset for a long time (because it has been, pretty much). Like, it's been obstinately against innovation - and it's usually been rewarded for it.
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Yeah. If they see MM as a part of the series, thats fine, that was a ton of inovation.
But from a "i want a fresh mario platformer experience with fresh visual style" it did not delivere, since it was 90% reusing of old mechanics and assets.

edamame said:
Nintendo will make another New Super Mario Bros. game and it will be awesome but everyone will complain that it's another New Super Mario Bros. game and won't play it.
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well see ...
Phosphorescent Skeleton said:
I'll play it and be sad it looks so boring and plays so safe despite mostly being a really good game.
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that. I want a new 2D mario. but i want it to be as fresh as Mario Bros 3 was back then, or Mario World. Or heck, New Super Mario Bros on the DS was a fresher thing then the games after that.
 
Buried In Time said:
It probably isn't in the cards, but I'd love for 2D Mario to go back to pixel art.
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It's definitely not in the cards

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MusicProposition said:
And yet it isn’t.

Also I don’t think that just because MM2 still gets user-generated content the team won’t work on anything/didn’t work on anything the last few years.
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It isn't... but it kind of is, though. It's the same issue as with DKC:TF. New content for a huge part of the install base, and Nintendo treats it as a new release.

I think the team is working on the next 2D Mario, though. And despite how much I liked NSMBUDX (insert here an obligatory link to the Tim rogers video explaining how much it owns) I hope that the 2D Mario team(s) are working on something different
 
Something I didn't really think of until now is that even though the 2D job posting went up in October 2019, it wasn't actually removed until June-September 2021. For comparison:
  • Breath of the Wild 2 (Level Designer) - Posted May 2018, removed November/December 2019-March 2020
  • Breath of the Wild 2 (3DCG Designer) - Posted November 2018, removed October 2019 (confirmed deadline)
  • 3D Action Game (Tokyo) - Posted October 2019, removed October 2020
  • Breath of the Wild 2 (Scenario Planner) - Posted October 2019, removed November/December 2019-March 2020
  • 2D Action Game (Tokyo) - Posted August 2020, removed June-September 2021 (same time frame as 2D Kyoto game?)
  • Splatoon 3 - Posted February 2021, removed March 2021 (confirmed deadline)
I wonder if it took Nintendo longer than expected to get extra contract level designers? I'm sure that COVID threw off most of their projected release windows. Also, we know they love to sit on games for scheduling reasons cough*metroidprimehd*cough.
 
I feel like they'd be better off holding 2D Mario as a launch title for the next system alongside Mario Kart. We already got NSMBU DX & Mario Maker 2 on Switch, so we do have our fill of 2D Mario on Switch at least.
 
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VolcanicDynamo said:
While there are specifics in mechanics and structure of NSMB that makes it NSMB, I think for the grand majority of people, making the graphics look nicer, swapping in new level mechanics and themes, and having a newer and more exciting soundtrack would be enough to get away from the NSMB stink. But of course the next game should do more than that. Does Mario have any new moves? What do the power ups look like? Do they retain the same world map progression, or do they try something else? The progression from 1 to 3 to World featured new mechanics for Mario, new powers, and different iterations of game progression from strictly linear to a more open map. For a subsequent 2D Mario to feel truly "new," it should follow in that lineage.
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Even the little stuff would go a long way. Like the flagpole stage ends that used to be associated with one game and its standalone hard mode expansion in '85-'86, until suddenly showing up in a half dozen games from 2006-2012.
 
JoshuaJSlone said:
Even the little stuff would go a long way. Like the flagpole stage ends that used to be associated with one game and its standalone hard mode expansion in '85-'86, until suddenly showing up in a half dozen games from 2006-2012.
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I guess the flagpole works a lot better for modern Nintendo than the SMB3 card roulette and the SMW moving gate since the former requires only good jumping and movement skill while the latter two require timing that borders on luck.
 
They put out a new 2D Mario in 2019. Even if you don't for whatever reason want to count the original Mario Maker, or Super Mario Run (the latter of which should absolutely count, but let's assume you're not buying that it should), Super Mario Maker 2 has more original single player 2D Mario content crafted by Nintendo developers as the intended "campaign" than many (most?) 2D Mario games in the past have.

The series is alive and well.
 
If you're desperate for 2d Mario the NSMB modding community had a direct a few months back with a ton of new projects and demos to play

 
Mekanos said:
I’d prefer they come up with something new. I’m just sick of flagpoles lol.
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They should bring back the bottom level/top level goal from SML. That one has no pseudo-luck to it.
 
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Phantom Thief said:
They put out a new 2D Mario in 2019. Even if you don't for whatever reason want to count the original Mario Maker, or Super Mario Run (the latter of which should absolutely count, but let's assume you're not buying that it should), Super Mario Maker 2 has more original single player 2D Mario content crafted by Nintendo developers as the intended "campaign" than many (most?) 2D Mario games in the past have.

The series is alive and well.
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What shocked me was how quickly they dropped support for SMM2, I thought they were gonna keep that going for a while.
 
Lucifer said:
What shocked me was how quickly they dropped support for SMM2, I thought they were gonna keep that going for a while.
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Nintendo dropping support of Mario Maker 2 out of combo of COVID, dev resources, and the game supposedly underperformed compared to expectations at the time is one of the big tragedies of Nintendo's approach to online/service games.
 
VolcanicDynamo said:
Nintendo dropping support of Mario Maker 2 out of combo of COVID, dev resources, and the game supposedly underperformed compared to expectations at the time is one of the big tragedies of Nintendo's approach to online/service games.
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What kind of expectations did they have for SMM2 for it to fail that?
 
Quillion said:
What kind of expectations did they have for SMM2 for it to fail that?
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Honestly, I'm not sure. Nintendo hasn't said anything definitely, but that was the hearsay at the time (context: Imran was the one who talked about them making a SMB2 theme which was scrapped in favor of the SMB2 power up):




...with the addition of the game not really pushing revenue like NSO subs:



...of course this is all speculation, but this is where we get the story of Mario Maker 2 having underperformed.
 
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So what I'm getting is that they banked on MM2's evergreen-ness to support yet another GaaS model. It seems that the audience expected the GaaS model to support the game's evergreen-ness instead.

It really does seem that Nintendo is particularly awful with the GaaS model, especially in the past few years. Sure, the vast majority of GaaS implementations even outside of Nintendo waste what could be a great idea, but with the Mario spin-offs in particular going from solid, content-filled side games circa the Wii years to barebones husks, there's clearly a lot more a GaaS Mario spin-off needs to do than just coast on the Mario branding.

When will all these GaaS abusers, Nintendo and others, realize that the model only really works for one-game franchises like Minecraft and Fortnite? AFAIK, the traditional sequel model and the GaaS model just don't mix.
 
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